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FingerThief
Gallente
Posted - 2008.01.16 12:03:00 - [1]
 

The amount of whining about can-flipping is driving me nuts !

Please read below, sit back, think about it THEN reply ( if you have to ) !

Jetcan mining is not something CCP invented, WE ( the players ) do abuse the game mechanic behind the JETTISON feature.

For the longest time "picking up stuff you jettisoned" was not punishable ... players whined ... CCP introduced a new game mechanic ( you take loot from a can not assigned or owned by you, you get flagged to the owner and he can destroy your ship ).

Now ... if you throw something out because you do not want it anymore ( aka "to jettison" ) and somebody risks getting spanked by you or friends that are in your fleet ... that is HIS risk.
You throwing away stuff and therewith risking it getting taken by somebody else ... YOUR problem.

If one unintended use of a game mechanic leads to some more or less clever player wanting to add you to his corps/alliances or personal killboard ... what the heck you lot always whine about ?

Use secure containers, a corp mate, a friend whatever ... but by all thats sacred ... STOP WHINING.

Now ... let this topic be engulfed with the ( inevitable ) flames.

Bye,

FT

Kirjava
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.01.16 12:07:00 - [2]
 

IT is kind of endorsed by CCP though, look at the Rorqual and tell me it wasn't desighned with mass jetcan mining in mind.

Jim Pooley
The Jeremy Kyle Holding Pen
Posted - 2008.01.16 12:09:00 - [3]
 

Can flagging is a prime example of "be careful what you wish for".

I have no sympathy for anyone who gets "can flipped".

Orgos Khenn
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.01.16 12:10:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: FingerThief
Words


OP speaks truth. This is why I don't advise people just starting to get into mining to use jetcans.

Asestorian
Domination.
Posted - 2008.01.16 12:28:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Kirjava
IT is kind of endorsed by CCP though, look at the Rorqual and tell me it wasn't desighned with mass jetcan mining in mind.


While true, this is just CCP adapting to facts of the game. It still doesn't mean that jettisoned containers aren't supposed to just be trash though.

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2008.01.16 12:40:00 - [6]
 

Well it was the miners that wanted the criminal flagging for stealing from jet cans in the first place.

Xtreem
Gallente
The Collective
White Noise.
Posted - 2008.01.16 13:05:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Wild Rho
Well it was the miners that wanted the criminal flagging for stealing from jet cans in the first place.


exactly! its was screams of miners that got this addition into the game, not the stealers, they just made it more fun for themselves

Fswd
Gallente
Psychotic Sea Monkeys
Posted - 2008.01.16 13:17:00 - [8]
 


Kirjava
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.01.16 13:19:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Fswd
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
What does this mean? A serenation for the dead?

Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
Posted - 2008.01.16 13:19:00 - [10]
 

Kind of off topic... but I always thought that jet cans should have the same capacity as the hold they were jettisoned from. To jet can mine successfully you would need a corp mate along side in an industrial to create the empty (large) cans for your miners to mine into.

Anyway, back OT, game mechanics are fine as they are. Ore theft and can flipping are part of the game. Learn to live with it, figure out how to avoid it or shut up. (HINT: can flipping only happens in hi-sec for low end ore... the same ore that can be found in most agent missions).

Cheers,
Arrs

Kirjava
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.01.16 13:22:00 - [11]
 

I have suggested a few times a much much larger anchorable structre in line with Jetcans, a 20k inside cargo with a deployed interal capacity of 26000, same size and it means you don't need so many damned Giant Secures to dot the same job.
FYI, the maths are [3900(20000/3000)]=26k.

SonOfAGhost
Minmatar
Minmatar Munitions and Tactical Assets Repository
Zzz
Posted - 2008.01.16 13:25:00 - [12]
 

Only thing missing from the current flagging system is that it should apply to gang-members, not just player-corp members.
Of course such an addition would be a double edged sword and could make things much more entertaining on both sides of can theft/flipping Twisted Evil

Fswd
Gallente
Psychotic Sea Monkeys
Posted - 2008.01.16 13:25:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Kirjava
Originally by: Fswd
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
What does this mean? A serenation for the dead?


No, bit like: would you have some cheese with that whine.

Kirjava
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.01.16 13:27:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Fswd
Originally by: Kirjava
Originally by: Fswd
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
What does this mean? A serenation for the dead?


No, bit like: would you have some cheese with that whine.
Ah, gotcha, thanks.

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2008.01.16 13:29:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Jim Pooley
Can flagging is a prime example of "be careful what you wish for".

I have no sympathy for anyone who gets "can flipped".


Can flagging is a good example of CCP taking a good idea and implementing it poorly. It should have been an option, period.

Metathron
S'Erum
Posted - 2008.01.16 13:38:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Jim Pooley
Can flagging is a prime example of "be careful what you wish for".

I have no sympathy for anyone who gets "can flipped".


Can flagging is a good example of CCP taking a good idea and implementing it poorly. It should have been an option, period.


It is an option ... you can either shoot or not at the can-flipper.

PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Gallente
The Night Crew
Posted - 2008.01.16 13:50:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Metathron
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Jim Pooley
Can flagging is a prime example of "be careful what you wish for".

I have no sympathy for anyone who gets "can flipped".


Can flagging is a good example of CCP taking a good idea and implementing it poorly. It should have been an option, period.


It is an option ... you can either shoot or not at the can-flipper.


I think he meant an option to "flag" a can in the first place, amirite?

FingerThief
Gallente
Posted - 2008.01.16 14:17:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: FingerThief on 16/01/2008 14:17:29
Originally by: Wet Ferret

Can flagging is a good example of CCP taking a good idea and implementing it poorly. It should have been an option, period.


IdeaIdeaIdeaIdeaIdeaIdea

I've been looking at that idea for the last 20 minutes form all possible angles and have to admit that it would basically solve a whole lot of open worm cans.
Simple ( I think from a programming point of view ) but highly effective solution.

You Sir, have my utmost respect.

FT


Radix Salvilines
legion industries ltd
AAA Citizens
Posted - 2008.01.16 15:01:00 - [19]
 

best to make mining barges and exhumers unable to unload ore into jet cans :) Only secure containers. +intorduce a new module "Automatic ore transferer" that could be linked with a friendly industrial. Once miner's hold is full all cargo jumps into the industrial :).

Orrr make humongous secure cans :) like 30000m3 of space but deployable only by a freighter :) Also quite expensive and disappearing after one week of not being used (big can is more likely to be hit by space particles - it has a low lifespan).
And maby to prevent lots of junk flying around there could be only one such can anchored per player :)

Problem solved haha

Thornat
Posted - 2008.01.16 15:25:00 - [20]
 

This may just be a my opinion here but I believe very strongly that 'inaction' or 'lack of response' is the equivilant of support. If you see a crime taking place and you don't speak out, in my opinion you are as guilty of a crime as the person who actually commited one.

With that logic, if CCP does not support Jetcan mining then they should eliminate the possibility. If they do support it but think that it should come at the risk of theft then they should do so publicaly. if they are against theft but for jet can mining then they should offer jet cans a password option so that a jet can, can be secured.

To me the complete absence of either in the form of comment or action simply means that they support the current system and that neither the ore thieves or the miners are doing anything wrong. Its simply the way they want it.

Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.01.16 15:26:00 - [21]
 

I dont agree with automatic linking, but being able to drag ore into a gang mates hold would be nice. Automatic would be too macro friendly.

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2008.01.16 15:32:00 - [22]
 

Jetcan ore theft is no different than having someone walk by and steal your boom box while you are chillin in the park. The only difference is that in Eve theft is not considered a crime unless you can enforce your rights yourself, while in today's society it is still a crime (even though the police are unlikely to be able to get your boom box back).

Basically, theft is not illegal. If you don't like that, keep your hand on your items (ie-in your cargo hold).

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.01.16 15:36:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 16/01/2008 15:36:36
Originally by: Kirjava
I have suggested a few times a much much larger anchorable structre in line with Jetcans, a 20k inside cargo with a deployed interal capacity of 26000, same size and it means you don't need so many damned Giant Secures to dot the same job.
FYI, the maths are [3900(20000/3000)]=26k.

....and no matter how many times it is suggested, it'll remain a horrible idea.

If implemented you'll remove two things from the game:
1. The mini-profession of 'ore-thief'. While a lot of people revile them, this game is not 'My Little Pony Online'.
2. The dilemma for miners to choose between security and efficiency.
Removing options and features from the game will NEVER be a good idea, just because some greedy miners want to get more ore in safety.

EVE is a good game BECAUSE there's no entirely secure way of doing things.

Oh, and read my sig for the dev's point of view......

Cyne Spurr
MacroIntel
United Corporations Against Macros
Posted - 2008.01.16 15:40:00 - [24]
 

I always thought it would of made much more sense to limit the size of J-cans to the same size as the vessle that dumped them.

Saying that when I J-can mine I have no problem with people flipping the can, I'd rather they flipped the can than say...Vape me to hell and loot my wreckage ;)
But then I only J-can mine when I am not in a gang, otherwise it makes more sense to have someone just empty the cargo pod.

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.01.16 16:54:00 - [25]
 

A jet can, inside the ship, is made of a collapsible array of brittle metal plates, attached to which is a rudimentary nanite AI control that will activate and hold the can together (for awhile) once in space. In its collapsed form the can doesn't take up much room, and more cans are loaded onto the ship every time it docks. Anyway, as the can is jettisoned, just before the cargo is loaded, the collapsible plates expand to a superstructure at least 30m on each inside edge (30*30*30=27000 m3.) While this capacity is much greater than the ship's cargohold, it is also far less secure.

That's the way I'd rationalize anyway. It really doesn't matter though since cargohold sizes are completely wonky. Why do battleships only carry 1/10th as much stuff as a non-expanded Industrial ship, despite both ships being roughly the same size? Why do carriers carry 2/3rds as much as a battleship despite being far, far smaller?

N1fty
Galactic Shipyards Inc
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2008.01.16 17:09:00 - [26]
 

For people who hate can flipping: Mine in lowsec, then you can shoot first...

...but ohnoes! Its not safe and people might shoot me too Crying or Very sad


In high sec you have to live with the can flippers, in low sec you have to live with the pirates. Seems balanced to me.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2008.01.16 17:17:00 - [27]
 

1. Jetcan mining is not intended for by CCP, like instajump bookmarks it was something that players came up with. When you jetcan mine you have a great advantage but it also comes with risk.

2. Can flagging was something that miners asked for in response to ore thieves. Now you have it. Where are all those miners that were going to teach all those Ore thieves a lesson?

The solution is simply not to jetcan mine. If you're a serious miner you'll get into a Hulk where jetcan mining makes a lot less sense. If you're not a serious miner and just looking for an easy way to make money then accept and respect the associated risk.

Osiris Rayne
Posted - 2008.01.16 17:37:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 16/01/2008 15:36:36
Originally by: Kirjava
I have suggested a few times a much much larger anchorable structre in line with Jetcans, a 20k inside cargo with a deployed interal capacity of 26000, same size and it means you don't need so many damned Giant Secures to dot the same job.
FYI, the maths are [3900(20000/3000)]=26k.

....and no matter how many times it is suggested, it'll remain a horrible idea.

If implemented you'll remove two things from the game:
1. The mini-profession of 'ore-thief'. While a lot of people revile them, this game is not 'My Little Pony Online'.
2. The dilemma for miners to choose between security and efficiency.
Removing options and features from the game will NEVER be a good idea, just because some greedy miners want to get more ore in safety.

EVE is a good game BECAUSE there's no entirely secure way of doing things.

Oh, and read my sig for the dev's point of view......



There is no 'ore-thief' profession, the majority of can flippers aren't in it for the whopping profits of stealing a few thousand trit off a noob.

Their goal there is to abuse the flagging and aggression timers in order to be able to kill in hi-sec with little or no risk to themselves.

Anyone that's isn't in a hulk with cargo expanders, or that doesn't have a 2nd account with an industrial standing nearby to transfer the ore doesn't have much of a choice other than to jetcan mine if they want to earn anything from mining.

The'Chosen
Posted - 2008.01.16 17:38:00 - [29]
 

Stating that jetcan mining was never intended, while true, is a bit of a lame excuse.

The fact that everyone and their dog uses a jetcan to mine indicates to me that there is a gap in the game mechanics. So while it's "working as intended" I think we need to change our definition of what's intended. It's an MMO after all, which will need to adjust and change.

- Everyone uses jetcans while mining means that there is a need for that type of a function
- Using jetcans versus something else indicates that there is no other good alternative

So rather than just dismissing the problem by saying "it's not intended", why don't don't we discuss the root of the problem and potential solutions to it?


A few comments on how I see things:
- The ore you bring in should belong to you.
- Cargo holds are simply not big enough to accommodate miner needs. This is particularly true now that eve has a higher skilled player base, mining large quantities.
- Working together as a group is good game play that CCP wants to encrouage (it's an MMO!). There is no alternative to trading in space. GSC are too small too.

Solutions? I'm sure there are loads of possible solutions. Here's one idea off the top of my head, but I'm sure others have better ones.
- Deployable cargo bay from a rorqual or orca. Much like a GSC. A gang of miners could move their ore into this deployed structure and then the rorqual could scoop it up when done.


My point is: a gap in the game mechanics exists. Let's discuss solutions and the scope of the problem rather than arguing if it's "intended" or not.

Deira Lenia
Mortis Angelus
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.01.16 17:48:00 - [30]
 

@ OP: Your for the win dude. Although it wont help posting about it.

All we can do about it is steal more ore from the jetcans so the miners either get someone to haul or protect them.

I wouldnt mind seeing Jetcans get smaller by about 20000m3. Less for me to steal, but less for the miners to whine about.


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