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Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2008.01.10 13:31:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: maGz
Edited by: maGz on 10/01/2008 11:26:42
Originally by: Gidien Kane
You don't make money in the mercenary profession by showing balls and MC are extremely good mercenaries


Although your comment definately has merit, I do believe that a complete lack of "showing balls", ie. what happened when -A- entered the Prohibition conflict, can be just as bad for your mercenary image as losing 10 caps in a proper fight.

EDIT: And yes - I do believe that the image of mercenaries is important. In the end, without showing what you are capable of, how would you expect anyone to pay for your services?


the image of the mercenary is as important as the ability of coming with relatively low losses in a conflict.

Seleene thought that not applying caps on the battlefield vs AAA was good enough. she made a mistake, but that's not something that kills the image.

in this line of business we have to deal with thin line between both, and how much we lose in a contract also contributes to our image. more than how much we kill.

hell I even dare to say that the merc business is the only place where K:D ratio has some sort of meaning.

Ask Unbeatable
Gallente
Krazny Oktyabr Revolyutsiya
Posted - 2008.01.10 13:40:00 - [32]
 

Nice post

DiaBlo UK
Caldari
ZDK
Posted - 2008.01.10 14:00:00 - [33]
 

Excelent post well made. makes trawling through all the rest of the crap wort it.
Don't agree with all of your opinions, but i was involved in none of it, so my opinions don't really count.
Thanks for making CAOD still worth reading.

Nethers
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2008.01.10 14:05:00 - [34]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. - Mitnal (mods@ccpgames.com)

DrakeStone
Caldari
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Celestial Industrial Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.10 14:21:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: DrakeStone on 10/01/2008 15:50:48

I think the prime mover of this post reveals that reinvention and reassessment is a neccessary evolution in Eve. However, to be pragmatic about it, with the cap on system capacity, all an alliance needs is two things: several hundred pvp'ers that are always freshly motivated AND the diplomacy to manage their number of concurrent enemies. MC in my estimation still has both of these qualities. However, one advantage a larger alliance has is that the "several hundred" pvpers needed at any given moment might be different people each time. Sure, one could argue that the longer the same team mates play together, the better they get but in the end I believe it is burn-out that typically leads to the demise of a corp or alliance. With a larger team size, you can always cycle new folks in, especially with the time zone factor being important.

To me, strategic decisions OFF the battlefield play a more important role, or at the very least, as important a role, as those on.

Practically speaking though, MC did what it had to do. It got out of the path of a wrecking ball.. evolution defined.


Urgomar
Caldari
Four Rings
Phalanx Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.10 14:39:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

hell I even dare to say that the merc business is the only place where K:D ratio has some sort of meaning.


I have to disagree with that, if I hire a mercenary, I'll judge his efficiency by the amount of damage he causes. I'd rather have him kill 100 enemy ships and lost 100 doing so than kill 50 for no losses.

I pay him to deal damage, staying alive is his problem, not mine!

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2008.01.10 14:54:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 10/01/2008 14:55:01
Originally by: Urgomar
I pay him to deal damage, staying alive is his problem, not mine!


exactly, but if we have a K:D ratio of 1:1, then we would be out of business since we would be out of ships REALLY fast.

the damage we do is important to the client.

the damage we suffer is important to our wallets.

and what does driver a merc to fight? exactly. profit.

no profit, no point on fighting.

Urgomar
Caldari
Four Rings
Phalanx Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.10 14:56:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Urgomar on 10/01/2008 14:59:19
Sure, but mercs are expendable anyway :)

If I hire a merc, I hire the most lethal, dont care if he disbands afterwards.

Clients shouldnt judge Mercs by their kill ratio.

N'olive
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.01.10 14:56:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: N''olive on 10/01/2008 14:58:00

Originally by: Demosthenes Citium
Unless the coalition of Goonswarm, Red, AAA, TCF, and others falls apart, Mercenary Coalition needs to work quickly and creatively to secure its future.
Don't worry the Civil War of the south between GS, RA, TCF and co is already planned.
Since 2006.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2008.01.10 15:05:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Urgomar
Edited by: Urgomar on 10/01/2008 14:59:19
Sure, but mercs are expendable anyway :)

If I hire a merc, I hire the most lethal, dont care if he disbands afterwards.

Clients shouldnt judge Mercs by their kill ratio.



...and that's why we have a hard life Sad

Urgomar
Caldari
Four Rings
Phalanx Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.10 15:15:00 - [41]
 

Its the life you chose !

If I start caring about the people I hire, I'll see them as allies where I prolly should'nt.

Then if they turn against me "a la MC style" everybody will say "they're mercs, what did you expect".

Merc need independance, and I understand that, but with it must come detachment.

Simariliia
Amarr
Spartan Industries
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2008.01.10 15:57:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Simariliia on 10/01/2008 15:59:13
good read, even Im not the person to tell if tis correct or not.

But he got 1 thing i have thought of myself, and thats more and more of eve gets more isk to capitals, making the difference between rich and poor alliances smaller and smaller. it getting harder and harder to be "outstanding" pilots in eve due to its harder and harder to do any I-Win buttons:p

I would say that players are a bigger asset in eve than anything else. Share number is getting more and more important. unless u have a really large player base, most corps and in the end alliance have a limited lifespan. Specially the heavy demanding once, ppl burn out and go other places after a while. like ure moving ure sofa around in ure appartment to make it "new" :p

Silvestri
Minmatar
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.01.10 16:14:00 - [43]
 

I personally say let MC keep Period Base. Now that they're shooting BoB I'm happy. I mean if you have the entire south united...what fun are you going to have next? I wish ISS would come back and we could give them all the outposts just to build off of and shooty shooty again. MC gives Eve a "wild card" element that w/out them...could turn dull. I'm actually worried stuff might turn dull. Given...RSF accomplished what RSF put out to do. But has anyone ever just stopped there? You always keep going until someone stops you.....good or bad of the future...you live the moment....
curious what the future brings....Neutral

Jasese
Gallente
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.01.10 16:18:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Silvestri
I personally say let MC keep Period Base. Now that they're shooting BoB I'm happy. I mean if you have the entire south united...what fun are you going to have next? I wish ISS would come back and we could give them all the outposts just to build off of and shooty shooty again. MC gives Eve a "wild card" element that w/out them...could turn dull. I'm actually worried stuff might turn dull. Given...RSF accomplished what RSF put out to do. But has anyone ever just stopped there? You always keep going until someone stops you.....good or bad of the future...you live the moment....
curious what the future brings....Neutral


Letting mc keep period basis is the stupidest thing the coalition could do.

xRevolveRx
Amarr
Masters of Mayhem
Posted - 2008.01.10 16:46:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Demosthenes Citium
Mercenary Coalition needs a new strategy


I thought they decided the new strategy is to fight with BoB and hope the 50,000 other people forget about them and their new pals. If that isnt working what else is their to do?

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2008.01.10 16:50:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Urgomar
Its the life you chose !

If I start caring about the people I hire, I'll see them as allies where I prolly should'nt.

Then if they turn against me "a la MC style" everybody will say "they're mercs, what did you expect".

Merc need independance, and I understand that, but with it must come detachment.


I can tell you as a merc, that while we honor our commitments, you cannot expect of us to become allies.

a business partner today is a target tomorrow. that is how we are and how we survive in this worldCool

xRevolveRx
Amarr
Masters of Mayhem
Posted - 2008.01.10 16:59:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Cpt Pugwash
Originally by: Nhaz
Originally by: Heptameron



Those MC left behind were simply not good enough to keep the area they had been given.



would you care to revise that statement? it took 27 alliances 2000+ pilots and 5 months of pretty much solid combat to pry mpire and fatal out. razor tri and MM took nothing but losses untill they created a giant napfest and did lets bring everything and the kitchen sink attack.

yes off topic but lets try to remember what really happened there.


Who holds the North now?

Not Mpire/Fatal etc.


Therefore, use any excuse you like, they were not good enough.



I think what he is trying to say is that the guys that took that space from mpire and fatal cant do anything on their own without overwelming support. If they have so much trouble against small alliances like that, what are they gonna do if BoB were to go back home to BKG if they decided to leave delve?

Suittam
Gallente
Austudy
FREELANCER ALLIANCE
Posted - 2008.01.10 17:06:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Suittam on 10/01/2008 17:07:37
Interesting points here, regarding things affecting most alliances rather than just MC and co.

I tend to agree with Simariliia, in that the player base of a corp or alliance has more of an impact on it's success than how many Caps/Super Caps it can field.

Ironically, the very selective recruitment that MC and all the top PvP alliances/corps have could be the one thing that eventually hold them back from achieving their objectives; especially with the advent of entities such as Goonswarm (and there will be others that follow them) where predominantly the numbers they can field count more than what they can fly.

If the Eve player base continues to grow, then it wont matter how many skill points your characters have, if the opposing force can throw 5 times the numbers back at you.
At the moment this effect is being artificially watered down due to limitations of the servers/code. If/when they resolve this, we could see a very different outcome to these types of wars.

-S-

Edit* spelling Cool

Hitme Harder
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.01.10 17:54:00 - [49]
 

Just a question.
To beat a fighter blob vs dreads, could you not employ stealth bombers to drop a EM then exp bombs onto the fighter blob's primary target?

Kaboom there goes the fighter swarm?

gordon cain
Minmatar
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.01.10 18:02:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: gordon cain on 10/01/2008 18:03:13
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 10:30:56
MC used to Hot drop invincible motherships vs fleets that could in no way kill it. The north did not have enough capital firepower to defend against carrier/MS so lost out. This was like running some kind of lvl4 as no way could the north do anything due to greedy northern alliances not investing in serious capital fleets.

Whenever there was any genuine risk to Capitals, MC was always out of the clear. Having a bunch of carriers are good, but against blobs of dreads or smartbomb motherships, even 300 carriers would not win.


Thats not true. MC may have had lots of capital at that time, but the "North" had that number also even Titan at that point. The only thing they didnt have were teamwork. Unlucky for us they learned that eventually Crying or Very sad

Gordon Cain

Urgomar
Caldari
Four Rings
Phalanx Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.10 18:03:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

I can tell you as a merc, that while we honor our commitments, you cannot expect of us to become allies.

a business partner today is a target tomorrow. that is how we are and how we survive in this worldCool


Exactly, that's why no clients should care about your well being.

In fact, if I use a Merc group and dont plan to use it in the foreseeable future, I should even try to have him suffer losses, so if he's hired against me his might will be reduced :P

Krullzorzz
Minmatar
CYBERDYMEBAG INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2008.01.10 18:10:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Krullzorzz on 10/01/2008 18:12:11
Thoughtful and well developed, but fundamentally incorrect. You dont understand mc's internal structure, or its true lack of a "ceiling"..unless you count the number of players in the alliance as a ceiling. Additionally, you fail to understand the scope of its logistics and carebear abilities.

The only cap for the MC is when every player in the alliance that can fly caps is in a supercap.


Kraven Kor
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.10 18:13:00 - [53]
 

Where's Locke?

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2008.01.10 18:18:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Urgomar
Originally by: Grimpak

I can tell you as a merc, that while we honor our commitments, you cannot expect of us to become allies.

a business partner today is a target tomorrow. that is how we are and how we survive in this worldCool


Exactly, that's why no clients should care about your well being.

In fact, if I use a Merc group and dont plan to use it in the foreseeable future, I should even try to have him suffer losses, so if he's hired against me his might will be reduced :P



ooooh you're an evil one.

gotta ask the boss not to accept any work offers from youRazz

Kiyirari
Minmatar
All Star Shipyards
Posted - 2008.01.10 18:25:00 - [55]
 

Well when ya think about it BoB kept Mc's OP safe while away on merc stuff, with BOB kicked out onto the street so to speak. Mc needed the new stratergy eg new friends alliance/corps to act as guard dogs for home system as to keep a capital production yard etc 0.0 industrial type stuff on the go.
Hence the new friend etc, from what i understand you may find the odd specialist corp within the new allies to MC who do work independlently from the main fleet.

No stratergy here, just plain ol survival in the bitter twisted space of PB, if their is any new cards up the sleeve it will be in the hands of there new allies...

Silvestri
Minmatar
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.01.10 18:27:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Jasese
Originally by: Silvestri
I personally say let MC keep Period Base. Now that they're shooting BoB I'm happy. I mean if you have the entire south united...what fun are you going to have next? I wish ISS would come back and we could give them all the outposts just to build off of and shooty shooty again. MC gives Eve a "wild card" element that w/out them...could turn dull. I'm actually worried stuff might turn dull. Given...RSF accomplished what RSF put out to do. But has anyone ever just stopped there? You always keep going until someone stops you.....good or bad of the future...you live the moment....
curious what the future brings....Neutral


Letting mc keep period basis is the stupidest thing the coalition could do.


I agree with you. As for the campaign it is....I'm thinking more for Eve. If/when MC is removed....I just wonder what will the south be like. No BoB...No Fix...No MC...No Rise...
Just a thought....

Omeega
Amarr
Ab Origines
White Noise.
Posted - 2008.01.10 18:37:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Silvestri
No Rise...


lol :)

xRevolveRx
Amarr
Masters of Mayhem
Posted - 2008.01.10 18:45:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: xRevolveRx on 10/01/2008 18:46:48
Originally by: Silvestri
Originally by: Jasese
Originally by: Silvestri
I personally say let MC keep Period Base. Now that they're shooting BoB I'm happy....Neutral


Letting mc keep period basis is the stupidest thing the coalition could do.


I agree with you. As for the campaign it is....I'm thinking more for Eve. If/when MC is removed....I just wonder what will the south be like. No BoB...No Fix...No MC...No Rise...
Just a thought....


You would be surrouded by goonswarm and company with nothing but blue all around IAC and AAA space. Sounds like fun.Confused

Ichi Hon
Gallente
Madhatters Inc.
Pure.
Posted - 2008.01.10 18:50:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Jasese

Letting mc keep period basis is the stupidest thing the coalition could do.


Does anyone actually think they would? I always just thought it was a given that if RSF beats BoB they will take out Tortuga.

I mean...thousands of bored pvpers......group with previous strong ties to BoB living in ex-BoB space......same MC that attacked IAC among others....it sorta seems like a no-brainer for the RSF.

In my opinion if there is one thing BoB can be sure of, it's that if they go down MC's going to follow pretty shortly thereafter.

Cockroach
Amarr
Kinetic Vector
Posted - 2008.01.10 18:58:00 - [60]
 

Personally i got a lot of respect for MC, fought against em once or twice.

I was kinda dissapointed when they left Bob in the lurch, it was kinda like saying 'omg, were gonna be on the losing side of this one, we cant have MC ever seen to be on a losing side.'
I'm probly wrong about that.....maybe?

But bein an old timer i liked the days when it was just sharks n body count workin together like a well oiled killin machine.

Good post anyway



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