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Hull Blaster
Gallente
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Cult of War
Posted - 2009.10.10 10:31:00 - [181]
 

I haven't had time to read the entire thread, but the idea posted by the OP sounds great :). These changes would make mining much more interesting for me, as it ties into having to explore space and the possibility of hitting a vein of rare ore.

I saw someone mention "why do we have the same belts/stuff in all systems". Why not have the ore types change from system to system? For example, blue star systems could have a higher concentration of specific ore/minerals than say yellow stars? Each system would have slightly differing ore/mineral types & quantities depending on how that system would theoretically be formed. Would mean you would have to explore different systems, instead of just unlocking and knowing you will have the same type or ore/mins that all the neighboring systems would have.

Pantorus Necraliss
Minmatar
Giza'Msafara
Posted - 2009.10.26 02:33:00 - [182]
 

The good question:

Will CCP do anything to attract miners in 0.0 with Domi ? Or did they do anything to make mining more attractive ?

If to improve the quality level of a system we have to do ratting/mining/commerce, just the obligation to mine will not make 0.0 more interessant...

Great ideas have been wrote in this forum, but as I see --> no answer, no reaction from CCP

Abrazzar have post a very good solution, in other post have being propose : cover barge, cap barge (more resistant, more cargo but same yield as the hulk), T3 barge, and other stuff...

I ask 2 CCP :
1- Did anything will be done for miners ? If Yes, when ?
2- Will you give us a real motivation to go mine in 0.0 ?

Henri Rearden
Gallente
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.28 00:43:00 - [183]
 

I love this idea. Chalk another supporter for mining improvement! I'd also like to add something of my own which seems to me to be a no-brainer. Get rid of jet-canning! If they're going to make "fighter bays" for the new motherships, then just make "ore bays" for mining ships which can hold only ore. Make them large enough (scale with the quality of the ship, naturally) that jetcanning loses much of its appeal and necessity.

Amitious Turkey
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2009.10.28 01:58:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Talula Honaloola
I agree with Kiki that the ore quality/types system in place is fine and easy to grasp so that doesn't need to be changed. The location idea however, is great - except that it would probably mess up belt ratting, a common fund raiser in 0.0.

Come up with an alternative that fits and you'll have a winner.


Pirate "bases" that you can warp to. Problem solved!

acklend
Posted - 2009.11.02 06:03:00 - [185]
 

I they just mad some miner revamps to the ORCA to be the new mining ship than it would be the next step. just add two more high slots, alow it to have a stack order with the same layout as the exhumers, so it can have 3 strip mining lasers, then 2 more low slots, then increase the ore bay buy 50 k, and make the cargo 60 instead of 30, and make the maintance bay 600k instead of 400k, and thats it, now u can have a new way of mining, and gets all the mining groups something low and high sec, well thats my idea anyways, and as for the rest of the defreant sun's making it to differant ore be nice.

Thanks

acklend

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.11.02 13:20:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: acklend
I they just mad some miner revamps to the ORCA to be the new mining ship than it would be the next step. just add two more high slots, alow it to have a stack order with the same layout as the exhumers, so it can have 3 strip mining lasers, then 2 more low slots, then increase the ore bay buy 50 k, and make the cargo 60 instead of 30, and make the maintance bay 600k instead of 400k, and thats it, now u can have a new way of mining, and gets all the mining groups something low and high sec, well thats my idea anyways, and as for the rest of the defreant sun's making it to differant ore be nice.

Sorry, but a new way of mining is not achieved by simply adding a boosted version of what already exists. A Mega-Hulk will not make mining more exciting, it will still be the same, just bigger.

Besides the obvious imbalance a Mega-Hulk. Or is this about suicide ganks and you want a 250k+ EHP Hulk to feel "save" in highsec?

Whatever it may be, it adds nothing new to mining as a profession.


It is nice however that they expanded gas mining with Apocrypha. That's one thing added. It's a start. Now gimme the rest! Very Happy

Jekyl Eraser
Posted - 2009.11.02 13:36:00 - [187]
 

I think the probing or scanning the minerals is allready confirmed.

I'd like to give my 2 cents to the subject also

Have different kind of minerals at different areas. Low end minerals can be scanned with onboard scanner and they usually are found near planets. Slightly better minerals could require new kinds of probes. Medium quality ore could be found near moons and stars. High end minerals could be anywhere in the system... wide area hard to find and would require special probe that has limited range(maybe only 4AU).

That way, system could have multiple minerals and player could adjust his hunting methods to find the one ore he would like to mine. For example if he wanted veldspar he'd know it's low end and that low end are near planets... it's so easy to find with onboard scanner, he wouldn't even need to waste high slot for a proble launcher.

Eli Porter
Posted - 2009.11.02 14:04:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: acklend
I they just mad some miner revamps to the ORCA to be the new mining ship than it would be the next step. just add two more high slots, alow it to have a stack order with the same layout as the exhumers, so it can have 3 strip mining lasers, then 2 more low slots, then increase the ore bay buy 50 k, and make the cargo 60 instead of 30, and make the maintance bay 600k instead of 400k, and thats it, now u can have a new way of mining, and gets all the mining groups something low and high sec, well thats my idea anyways, and as for the rest of the defreant sun's making it to differant ore be nice.

Sorry, but a new way of mining is not achieved by simply adding a boosted version of what already exists. A Mega-Hulk will not make mining more exciting, it will still be the same, just bigger.

Besides the obvious imbalance a Mega-Hulk. Or is this about suicide ganks and you want a 250k+ EHP Hulk to feel "save" in highsec?

Whatever it may be, it adds nothing new to mining as a profession.


It is nice however that they expanded gas mining with Apocrypha. That's one thing added. It's a start. Now gimme the rest! Very Happy


I have to say I would like it if Mining barges and Exhumers had more EHP. Not suicide gank protection as much as it is protection against AFK cloakers. Just a bit more time for your friends to come and help.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.11.02 14:08:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Eli Porter
I have to say I would like it if Mining barges and Exhumers had more EHP. Not suicide gank protection as much as it is protection against AFK cloakers. Just a bit more time for your friends to come and help.

Well, this would be a entire topic of its own and not really part of a mining mechanics overhaul. So let's not discuss this here, especially as it usually attracts idiots to puke stupid on it. Wink

acklend
Posted - 2009.11.06 05:04:00 - [190]
 

Actually to coin the phrase mega hulk is exactly what is needed but to evolve space mining in any sec. then again if you are a minor. its really about space volume vs time. Its not about a gank, more like mining in small corps and self mining were do u go to get out of jet can mining, but to have a mega Hulk to mine with out getting can flipped spend more time mining and less time run back and forth from base to belt, and with more cargo capability that the Orca has, this makes more appealing to any minor or mining infrastructure. Tho i would say that this is one of many improvements that would be needed. If you say get skills and go to 0.0 then you are not a minor. If u question on the safty of minors then my sujestion wasnt really based on safty its more all things what do we need. 1st Cargo, 2nd time reduction ( some times do to Real Life you not always able to get people to get together so many times and other snaffu's) and this list can go on. But i say the Orca is the next step. The hole dynamics will be fine. this opens more doors minors didnt have before.

Thanks

Acklend

Germaldi's Dad
Posted - 2009.11.06 12:32:00 - [191]
 

Edited by: Germaldi''s Dad on 06/11/2009 12:42:50


i'd like to see a megahulk -- BUT it would have to be restricted to 0.0/Low sec only and need a jump drive to move about. (no gate travel)

it could be a sort of modified thanatos carrier that uses fighter sized mining drones and has maybe 3x capital XL sized strip miners mining a total ammount per cycle equivalent to using 6x t2 standard strip miners

imagine a fleet of these in a belt boosted by a commandship with an orca hauling ore back to the pos and with a rorqual compressing the ore and a jump freighter hauling it all out to empire/outpost.

acklend
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:36:00 - [192]
 

Enough of taking care of 0.0 space people. I would like to go there in what average is like 1 two almost 2 year character. Aw some times I guess i have to point out that the Rorqual could have a new face lift as well, now back to the orca Since im an orca pilot its just fine with the add-on's I just previously mention. now for all in 0.0 space im sure if u updated the Rorqual that it would be the low sec version of the hi to low sec orca since the minor updates that should be implemented is modest and small. but lets look at the facts, why would u want to force around what 2/3's of the gaming community im guessing that lives in high sec to 0.0 when there happy being in high sec. strange and the people that are in 0.0 should be here as well and start squawking about the Rorqual over hall I didn't mention it do to i didn't plan on flying one. And yes I am in high sec and sence im a ICB (higher level from CB)(ICB = Industrial Care Bear CB = Care Bear) odd verse slang used by the pvp groups to slaughter mining ops. strange that some of them talk on this board. -_- But back to whats at hand. The so called mega hulk would be the Revamped Rorqual. and the next step from the hulk is what i sujested for the orca. I know hard to see but just look at what the orca rolls increases as a master part of the corp and individual, and will make for more options as well as more joint venture's between people. But its just not an mega hulk, its evolution, from hi to low sec, Rorqual is there in 0.0 and orca is in high sec. there you all go. ^^

Thanks

Acklend

acklend
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:54:00 - [193]
 

PS one of my friends read my post and pointed out that what i meant by 2/3'ds of the gaming pop was in reference to the miners. ^^
\



thanks again

Acklend

Zekks MarKeys
Posted - 2009.11.09 05:53:00 - [194]
 

Edited by: Zekks MarKeys on 09/11/2009 06:09:26
Edited by: Zekks MarKeys on 09/11/2009 06:04:23
first off, i love that one could scan down new random belts in systems. that would be kewl. but dont we dont that now? grav sites...

2nd, i love the idea of gaining rare ores from common rocks.
instead of revamping anything, add a rare mineral recovery skill (8X-requires refining 5 and refining efficiency 4). this skill ads a 5% chance per level of extracting a rare mineral. if you achieve a rare mineral (as per your skill level), you will look to your reprocessing skills. if you have high arknor processing, you can gain a tad of arknor from that yeild. if you have 5's on all reprocessing, you stand to pull a lil of all minerals from the ore. now, lesser ores like veld will yield lesser ammounts of rare ore. veld would give 5% rare minerals of varying kind. in that 5% could be found all minerals from trit to arknor. plagio might give 5.5%, omber might give 8% and gneiss might yield 10%. mercoxit is off the list tho.


alloy mining?
ok, alloys are mixtures or minerals. why not make an alloy skill like smelting?
smelting (5x)- the mixing of minerals to form alloys for consctruction.
that could lead to a whole new set of skills for allows. it could be done at a pos like polymers. buy a recipe...put minerals in one side and out comes an alloy.
so living in a worm hole you would need poses for refining/smelting/reprocessing, polymer processing and t3 ship production. would be kewl.
it would have to be a specialized station for alloy production tho. special smelters...

on to ships...
we have our command ships being orca and roy..what about a battleship class miner?
4,5,6 highs (depending on bs tier 1, 2 or 3) high resists like the orca is but 6-7 or so mids and 3-5 lows, good targeting speed, 400m3 drone bay and 125 m/bit bandwidth. 10% bonus to drone hp and damage per level, descent shield regen. the ship might gain a 5% per lev of sheild rep or 5% resist per level, 5% bonus to laser range and say 15k cargo.
prolly run in the 850 mill-1 billion isk range.
that would solve ALOT of prollems with low sec/null sec mining, advance the evolution of mining one more notch and tickle alot of miners pink. itll deffinately bring the price of ore down a notch sinc we will be able to defend ourselves in low sec. might even have a compression factor or maybe an ore bay on top of cargo, say 500 cargo, 100k ore (the ore bay could be expandable vis ship level, cargo not) and the drone bay.

imagine 5 ratters taking a belt in null sec. they will strip not only high ends, but those damn 200k veld roids all over that no one touches.
/signed.

Yon Krum
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:03:00 - [195]
 

There have been a variety of interesting suggestions in this thread, but unless you add something that is not macro-able, or does not crash the value of minerals, then you've not improved the miner's situation.

The essential problem of EVE is that minerals are a secondary source of income, in the sense that they are bought by players with ISK that originated in: A) missions, B) belt rats, or C) insurance payouts (fraud or otherwise). That means that the miner is dependent on there being enough demand for his product, in order to make a decent income. Due to the introduction of the Drone Regions, primarily, the supply of high-end minerals has run up against demand, and if CCP introduced more productive mining ships that would only result in further mineral price crashes.

What is needed is some form of mining-related payout that is not tied to the current primary minerals. This means something such as as-yet-unknown T3 module materials, moon products (bad idea, see minerals), or "trade good" products from the periodic table (silicates, iron, carbon, uranium, etc.). I lean strongly toward the latter, trade-goods based solution, because it represents source of income for miners that is not based on the player economy, and could therefore provide a kind of productivity floor alongside pure insurance-fraud motivated mineral purchases.

How could this be done? Give some asteroids in lowsec and 0.0 a chance when mined to periodically release a "nugget" or "deposit" that when targeted and mined for a cycle or two turns into unrefined elements in your hold. These are refined into the trade goods, and then sold in Empire at whatever NPC buy order prices you can get.

The catch is that the "nuggets", when released, do not appear on the overview, and last for a limited period of time before being "lost" in the asteroidal clutter. This rewards players who tend their mining operations and watch for the nuggets, but prevents macros from easily taking advantage of them.

The above section could be used for any newly mined item, of course. You could even have rocks that are worthless, except if they release the special goodie.

This idea is as close to a mini-game as I think we can get without actually putting one in... though I'm all for puzzle-quest mining in space! Rolling Eyes

--Krum

Zekks MarKeys
Posted - 2009.11.10 14:25:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Yon Krum


How could this be done? Give some asteroids in lowsec and 0.0 a chance when mined to periodically release a "nugget" or "deposit" that when targeted and mined for a cycle or two turns into unrefined elements in your hold. These are refined into the trade goods, and then sold in Empire at whatever NPC buy order prices you can get.
Krum


oh yay. another benifit to 0.0. lets make the rich alliancs even richer. yay \o/

and who says a mineral crash wouldnt help things. if the price of mins drop, the price of ships drop and everything related to ships drop. then we wouldnt need 200 mill for an absolution.

acklend
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:27:00 - [197]
 

Em i would have to say that the nugget idea wouldn't work and would just cheapen what is already in play. Now there is really to options here. fix the t2 mining barges with more cargo or up it to a new level. My Idea with the orca can work and wont drop the economic strife of eve at all. Even if you look at it in all directions is this. programing, whats there to use, adding a new mining ship or fix what u have, easiest way to make all happy is what i just mentioned or increase the cargo on the barges on t1 and t2 by just doubling what they have now would work. And that's not going to destabilize eve. Miners ether have two functions mine and sell or mine and build. Now if we want to suggesting that we make it harder on the programmers and say a sun color would produce deffer-ant types of ore then sure but that's going to create more problems for miners do to if one sun and system has a rich area there going to be fighting and more pirating in high sec. And that would destabilize the economics a bit, Ore they could jsut in crease the hidden belts a bit, since they downd the drop rate of the salvage. And to truely get the nugget idea to realy work would be on found belts, that would give miners and others more fun in doing other stuff instead of just going to one belt then the next. So thats my take on the Nuget idea put that in what u can find belts. ^%^ and put your vote for the Orca to have the upgrades i mentioned earlyer

thanks

Acklend

Yon Krum
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.11.11 05:28:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: acklend
Em i would have to say that the nugget idea wouldn't work and would just cheapen what is already in play. Now there is really to options here. fix the t2 mining barges with more cargo or up it to a new level.



I believe you have confused the logic at work here.

More minerals means less profit per mineral. If you mine more minerals in the same period of time (say, double current rate), then the value of those minerals will drop by about half. Supply outstrips demand, and it takes longer to recoup the investment in your "next tier" mining ship.

The reason mining is less profitable now than it was a few years before is because of this fact--the supply of readily available minerals exceeds the demand... and this is especially true of the high-end minerals (it was true regarding Trit prior to CCPs increase in highsec spawns of veld, this past quarter).

Increasing the cargo capacity of mining ships does nothing except reduce the amount of time a player needs to pay attention. If you can hold another cycle of ore, then you have another 3 minutes before you need to swap it into the jetcan. If CCP made it impossible to jetcan ore, then I could see how higher cargo holds would be logical (along with some way to transfer ore directly to a hauler).

I recommended the "nugget" idea as being reserved for lowsec and 0.0 because--especially in lowsec--the ores do not match the risk associated with mining there. If the implementing devs disagree with this, personal, assessment then nothing would prevent it from being implemented EVE-wide. Also, it would be logical to limit it to scanned gravimetric mining sites, since that's the direction EVE has been going for a long time.

I'm still waiting for another mining idea using normal asteroids (ie. easy coding) to be proposed that does not result in market crashes. If anyone has one, please post.

And again, I favor using the trade-goods to add miner income, and NOT employing bits of moon-goo, because like minerals moon-goo is in a delicate supply/demand relationship already.

--Krum

WaliWorld
Posted - 2009.11.11 07:22:00 - [199]
 

it really comes down to where to apply said improvement and it actually counts as improvement to mining. but i dont know the first thing about that crap. The real question is, will CCP go through with it?
but srsly, we need moar scooby-doo snacks, ALOT moar

Destras
Posted - 2009.11.11 14:41:00 - [200]
 

abrazzar the biggest problem i forsee with your primary idea on mining mechanics overhaul is that in doing so you will completely screw up the entire market by drastically altering mineral values. everything will become completely skewed, ore prices with go up an down more so than they currently do and as a result ship prices will in a massive flux.

also, your example is more or less what we have now, all that it appears that youve done is gone from having multiple types of roids to 1 type of roid that yeilds everything, that seems rather lazy and a mechanic change that would infact benefit macro miners. what your proposing would be a complete rewrite from the ground up on mining and would destroy it in its current form, i for one definately do not agree with how roids should be handled, as for the rest of your suggestions, have not paid much attention to them.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.11.11 15:14:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Destras
...have not paid much attention...

At least you admit your opinion is based on ignorance.

On the rest, thank you for adding nothing. If you see problems without offering solutions, you could as well just shut up.

Destras
Posted - 2009.11.11 16:22:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: Destras
...have not paid much attention...

At least you admit your opinion is based on ignorance.

On the rest, thank you for adding nothing. If you see problems without offering solutions, you could as well just shut up.


the solution is with the current roid set up, that does not need to change. interms of your solar harvesting and ideas such as those i have not looked into. and if you took time to actually think about what was said instead of jumping to the "i must bash him for posting in disagreement with the idea" you would of noticed that.

your wrong, something was added, it was the simple statement that changing the way roids are set up doesnt really change mining, it does but it is only a means to make it less of an effort than it is now which only degrades mining, not improving the situation.

your views on having a new ship shows your closed mindedness on giving something that actually is something miners need. like the vast majority of the population you think that a new ship for miners would be vastly superior to what we have when thats not necessarily true, the biggest thing we want in a new ship is more survivability. please stop jumping too fast to shoot others down on such ideas.


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