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StarStryder
WISE OUTCASTS
Posted - 2008.12.17 12:55:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Axel Vindislaga
One thing I dont get about the mineral disribution in Eve is that the rare and crucial ores are FARTHER away from the empires. In any real situation the Empires would be vying for control of the most crucial ores. Its backwards and makes no sense. I dont mind it but things that are backward and nonsensical break immersion. In fact you show me a place in RL where you can go freely pipe up some oil for personal use. Unranium anyone? Mineral rights are bought from the Empires that control the areas intended for mining and are heavily taxed.



I think that the premise is that the ore was once evenly distributed but over time the Empires have mined out all of the valuable ores leaving just the rubbish. Besides, things are valuable because they are hard to obtain. If Ark was easily available in Empire then it's price would crash and it would no longer be a high end ore!

Vicious Merquise
Posted - 2008.12.17 18:51:00 - [122]
 

After reading last recent post I have to explain my self a little bit more thoroughly. So goes like this.
I'm OK with any ideas so long as it doesn't copyrights other games!!! I've played many sci-fi spaceship games some around EvEs lvl others not so great. If EvE is going to change I hope it's on its own accord without any copy written materialistic ideas.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.02.15 15:44:00 - [123]
 

As mining changes are currently on the backburner at CCP, I guess I'll have to keep this thread alive a little longer. Wink

Anyone who knows of threads discussing mining changes that haven't been discussed here could drop a link into this thread so we can have a broader spectrum of discussions going. I don't want the input to be limited to my ideas, that would be vain, wouldn't it?Smile

Valegresch
Posted - 2009.02.15 21:25:00 - [124]
 

/signed If this will help get rid of macro miners I'm all for it.

Raven Drake
Posted - 2009.02.22 19:02:00 - [125]
 

Hmm, well... I think I'll add my three cents to the thread.

First I want to say that I don't have 'the perfect solution' for mining. What I'd like to exist in EVE would be Mining Rigs. So far rigs exists to pretty much everything ship related except specifically mining (except mining drone rig).

Those could give bonuses to cycle types, yield or be more 'mineral oriented', ie. give more bonuses to specific minerals. Could also be used to boost specific type of ship equipment like strip miners, ice harvesters and other stuff.

I don't think it would be hard to do, but could rebalance dedicaited miners a bit.

And yes - other ideas are good too. I think it's a time for mining to be completely overhauled.

Sorry if this idea was posted before.


ingenting
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2009.03.18 01:21:00 - [126]
 

i like, signed (again, i think)

Jarna
Amarr
Air EVE
Posted - 2009.03.20 19:05:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
The point behind this idea is not only to combat macroers. Or disadvantaging low SP players. I wanted to create a system that changes the feel of mining, that gives a reason to go more exploring and that gives more value to high mining skills.

If new miners get too disadvantaged by multi ore asteroids it could easily be done to create more single ore asteroids in high sec, especially 0.8+. But not every crappy mining alt or a combat pilot with basically no training in mining should not sit in 0.0 and mine Arkonor. That this is currently possible devalues the profession of the miner. Only specialists should be able to train the high class ores.

While the randomizing of mining locations will make things more complicated for macro miners the main intention was to give players with the will to explore and prospect a advantage. The knowledge of where mining locations spawn in the systems will be very valuable for miners, ratters and pirates. Knowing your turf will give you a greater advantage than it does at this time.

Now, while I appreciate the input, I'd welcome even more if people could add to this idea or offer fixes for the problems they see with the mechanics I have put up. "Agree" and "Disagree" doesn't really help in developing a idea into something more substantial.

So please, add to it, I'm no prophet, I don't write scripture.


I'd liek to say my mining alt just hit basic Retriever operation and I can pull in around 15mil in 5 hours just mining veldspar (maybe more, but I don't have the equipment just yet to move my ore somewhere more profitable.

However, there are people in HULKs making 56mil in one hour in 0.0 space. I really don't see a need to make it harder for me to make some money.

Magnus Nordir
Caldari
Nordir Industries
Posted - 2009.03.22 19:45:00 - [128]
 

Something like this, or anything similar that breaks the monotony and boringness of mining just might be enough to bring my industrial alt fleet back. Signed.

Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2009.03.22 20:44:00 - [129]
 

Anything to make mining more interactive gets my vote Smile

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.03.25 15:53:00 - [130]
 

Let's examine how System Wide Belts could be introduced with using as many of currently available mechanics as possible and modify only when necessary as little as possible.

Asteroid belts are areas where asteroid density is significantly above average. They have a certain diameter and thickness, may be oval shaped and may be angled to the system plane. In this area of space asteroids are moving about and can congregate temporarily in greater than usual density. Those congregations can be detected with gravimetric sensor equipment and that is what miners are looking for.

In game terms it means that in a system with a belt is an area of space defined to spawn gravimetric sites. The exact variables for the spawns, like how often they spawn, what asteroids they contain, how long they last and how many there are simultaneously active, are defined specifically per system with a seed, similar to the current static belts.

Systems in highsec can have larger asteroids chartered with a public warp beacon to help new players to find belts to mine. In high highsec, like 0.8- 1-0 the gravimetric sites in the belts could be found with the on-board scanner. Adding a beacon that shows up on the on-board scanner to the sites that are defined to spawn there could make this possible. So they show up both as gravimetric anomalies and as Veldspar Belts.

Belts in lowsec and nosec are not hinted at by public beacons but have to be discovered individually. A miner (or pirate) would have to know their turf for effective probing of those sites (or victims).

The shape of the defined area could be modified to fit other scenarios. A spherical shell for oort clouds, a tear shape at a destroyed planet like Seyllin or shattered moons/planets older than this.

Planetary rings would probably require additional graphical functionality considering the high density of material in those areas. Entering a grid that is within the defined coordinates of a ring system would add a new backdrop (like the cloud environment in Recon 3/3) and may spawn particle asteroids floating about. The low detail display of the ring that is shown from a distance would probably need transparency added that removes it from the vicinity and only fades it in at a distance.


This basic functionality of defining an area of space for spawning certain exploration sites could also be used in a more general way with other exploration types, like debris fields from epic space battles, gas trails of comets, rogue drone infestation concentrations and so on.


The removal of static belts will require a change in ratting to balance mission and exploration independent PvE which is a vital income for many 0.0 residents. Increasing the amount and frequency of Cosmic Anomalies (which is more semi exploration) and the rewards found in them could be used to balance this out.

Also public warp-beacons leading to "Places of Interest" containing debris, clouds, ruins and rock formations could be added, which are used as waypoints and rallying points (which is the reason rats spawn there), to replace the old static belts for (combat) PvE income.

Of course the gravimetric sites will still spawn rats normally. Additionally the exploration site based code for those location would allow scripting for more colorful events.


This would be that. Add to it!Very Happy

Ehris Bok
United Kings
Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2009.03.26 04:32:00 - [131]
 

so with system wide belts would you have:
1. a few points that you can warp to that have mine able rocks. With the rest of the asteroid belt just drawn in for the effects ?
2. or have millions of kms of rock to mine at your pleasure like we see in RL asteroid belts.

btw im loving these posts good reading Very Happy

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.03.26 14:08:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Ehris Bok
so with system wide belts would you have:
1. a few points that you can warp to that have mine able rocks. With the rest of the asteroid belt just drawn in for the effects ?
2. or have millions of kms of rock to mine at your pleasure like we see in RL asteroid belts.

btw im loving these posts good reading Very Happy

Thing with your second point is that our RL asteroid belt is so thinly populated by asteroids that you can fly through it without even hitting one. Considering the speed of the barge, spreading asteroids to mine 100 or 1000km apart would be quite annoying really. Wink

This is why I used the explanation of asteroid congregations that are dense enough in asteroids to not only show up as a gravimetric anomaly but also allow mining without drifting around for half an hour to get from roid to roid.

For planetary rings the explanation could be that the results get filtered to discern between congregations of valuable material that is worth mining and simple rocks of iron/silicate/water ice that are not worth mining. So the sites are only those congregations of valuable material.

Also, having sites spawn is more easy on the database. Wink

Thanat Ithos
Posted - 2009.03.26 16:29:00 - [133]
 

I can sign a lot of posts here about new kinds of mining (multi-ore-roids, comet mining, dust mining, solar mining and a lot more).
Also I like the idea to spread roid-belts over the solar systems – which have to be scanned– in this way it could be more difficult to find roids, but it could make it possible to find some high end ore in high sec…you only have to find it. At least it makes it also more difficult for can flippers, war targets and pirates to find targets.

One point I posted last year in a separate thread – moon mining with ships, to make moon mining possible at high sec. By moon mining only possible with POS in lowsec and 0.0 a large group of players, which stay at high sec, are excepted from this part of the game. Sure moon mining would require a new class of ships, thats true, but why not. It’s only one addition way in mining.

This routes me to the main point of my post.
More different ships for mining.
I have ships like the following ones in mind (only suggestions) to give miners new toys to play with..Laughing

Mining barges based on empire factions (BPOs can be bought only from the mining corps of each empire). The ships have race specific bonuses.
Gallente: 10% bonus in mining plagio, Minmatar: 10% bonus to veldspar, amaar bonus to 10% pyrox, caldari 10% bonus to scordite…, but all have 10% malus to all other kinds of ORE compared to ORE mining barges. T2 version could give race specific bonus to high end or midrange ore….

Gas Mining barges and exhumers (plus gas mining strip miners).
Additionally spread more gas clouds over the universe (both types of gas – for boosters and for polymers).

Ships which are specialized to different new kinds of mining, like Moon mining ships, Dust-Cloud harvesters, comet mining runners, gas tankers which compress gas an triples the volume for stored gas compared to a hauler, and so on.

T3 mining support ships – ships which can be modular fitted with ore compression, or refining lines (means ore is directly refined at the ship – minerals need less cargo space) or mineral compression (similar to orecompression but for minerals), additionally cargo containers, electronic subsystems which gives add bonus on mining (similar like gang modules), reactors for advanced material or polymer reaction and a lot more ….maybe only possible for sub-capital class ships like orca,…but why not

This are only a few suggestions but I think the success of the orca on market shows the urgently need of new ships around the mining profession.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.03.26 17:31:00 - [134]
 

With ORE and the Serpentis cooperating during the Seylin disaster, it is not too far off to see them cooperating in mining ship and gas harvesting technology, especially with valuable gas clouds sitting in the wormhole systems. We might be seeing the fruits of that cooperation quite soon (I hope).

Hermit Naii
Gallente
Mako Impact Corporation
New Eden Research.
Posted - 2009.03.30 08:37:00 - [135]
 

If it gets rid of macro miners, I'm definitely in for it.

tatsudoshi I
Gallente
The Venus Project - Zeitgeist Movement
Posted - 2009.03.31 07:37:00 - [136]
 

Making mining more complicated is a BIG nogo for me. I like mining to be lazy work so I can relaxe which is what I want to when I mine. So any complexity added to mining should not force the current way of mining out of the game. Only yield better ore amount or type.

And for all your whining about macro miners, gees get over it. If making the game worse for the ones that do not cheat just to get the ones that do it will hurt the game double so. If the game integraty means that much to you maybe you should get out more Wink

godapal
Posted - 2009.03.31 14:47:00 - [137]
 

yay sounds good, do it

Lord Eremet
Posted - 2009.04.08 13:48:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
From post 130 a lot of awesomeness...


This is one of the best ideas I've read in a long time. Good work Very Happy

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2009.04.08 14:18:00 - [139]
 

Alright, a lot of topics in the last 5 pages.

Discounting all the random ideas dropped... Abrazzar's ideas seem to be.

1) Mixed Content Asteroids
2) Variable Mining Locations
3) Allow Mining
4) Comet Mining
5) Solar Mining
6) Enriched Gas Clouds
7) System Wide Belts

So...

1) I don't think we need mixed asteroids. As others have said, it would seriously take away from the T2 mining gear. As it stands, I usually fit T1 Strips and head for an 0.5 belt, so I can mine whatever is in range. If you could gather all the same ore and minerals from any rock regardless... there's really be no point to carrying extra mining crystals.

2) People keep complaining about how easy belts are to find. What they fail to notice, is the beacon they're landing on each time. The faction in charge of each system has already done the scanning, and placed beacons in each belt, to help future miners. Now I agree there could be more Grav sites to vary things. But that doesn't mean we need to require every miner become an explorer as well.

3) I think alloy mining would be a better version of the mixed content from #1. Maybe the alloys would only be found in 0.5> systems? Maybe they'd only spawn randomly in Grav sites. But it would be interesting to find out where the Rogue Drones have been gathering them.

4) I've always wanted to see Comet mining. And I do agree they should be fast moving objects so you can't just park a Hulk and chew it up. To that end, I'd like to see a T2 Navitas (mining frigate) that could be quick enough to chase the comet and still be able to draw decent yield. Maybe a boost to tractor beams, so it can drag a Jet Can. Or maybe a conveyor beam to shuffle off the yield into a friendly Industrial.

5) Solar mining sounds like reaching for an idea honestly. Other than strange cosmic dust, or solar energy, I don't think there's a lot we could gather that would be useful.

6) I also think Gas Clouds should't yield Trit or something. That also sounds like reaching for an idea.

7) System Wide Belts just sounds like every miner wanting to cash in on Veld could sit in the same 1.0 system forever and never worry about someone else taking their 'roids.

Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2009.04.08 20:33:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar

Thing with your second point is that our RL asteroid belt is so thinly populated by asteroids that you can fly through it without even hitting one. Considering the speed of the barge, spreading asteroids to mine 100 or 1000km apart would be quite annoying really. Wink


Depends really, you can warp to a roid if it's 150km or more away, and if it's big enough it might be worth it to warp around a few times. You could add some smaller roids around the big ones, stating gravity did it Razz

Tsual
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.04.26 01:16:00 - [141]
 

Posted some of some of my own ideas in a different thread.

Some other ideas would be mining of non mineral space dust - organic, radioactive, nitritic, frozen water and so on - that are the production base of known trading goods which are needed to run a station/colony as soon as viceroyality is introduced.

Rare ores and catalyst like minerals that are not needed as production base but act more like tools for production by either help to create new materials or decrease building time for certain item groups (like t2 parts). The minerals should not be directly refined from the ores rather build by adding chemical agents, should need a skill of advanced material processing which would need various scientifical skills besides metallurgy. They should be very rare at best 1000 units existing throughout the cluster at one time, with each process in which they are used they get damaged until they are destroyed might additionally be only stable and usefull for a certain ammount of time.

Drakolus
Amarr
Dopehead Industries
True Reign
Posted - 2009.05.02 19:13:00 - [142]
 

While I can't say I've read the entire thread I did see an idea that really caught my eye.

Alloy mining (imo) would be a godsend for low sec mining. Right now, to be efficient at mining you have to take a big lumbering barge if not a fleet of mining ships into a belt and sit there, static, mining away. You SCREAM for pirates to come rushing in and gank you. I'm pretty sure just presenting the thought of a fleet of mining ships has many pirates salivating as is :).

With alloy mining, the regular roids may not get touched more than they do already but you could have small fast mining frigs darting from rock to rock, belt to belt trying to glean off valuable alloys, all while the hungry pirates are trying to scan them down and pick them off. The relative cheapness of the T1 mining frigs added to the decent yield from alloys (and their small size) could make this a viable alternative.

If alloy mining were confined to say .6 or .5 and below it would give a little bit of high sec to practice in (but good luck really finding anything decent) before you moved on to .4 and below.


ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.05.02 19:29:00 - [143]
 

How about...

~ Remove belts from the overview.
~ Add a "belt probe" that can be launched from your cargo. Barges will have a built-in probe.
~ One scan, with one probe reveals all normal belts, Grav sites remain unchanged, and unaffected.

There, I just made life a lot more frustrating for macro-ers, win Very Happy

ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.05.02 19:33:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Drakolus
...Alloy mining...confined to X.X sec...

This could go well with my med-sec idea.
It is a bit crazy but...

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.05.30 16:12:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: ShadowDraqon
How about...

~ Remove belts from the overview.
~ Add a "belt probe" that can be launched from your cargo. Barges will have a built-in probe.
~ One scan, with one probe reveals all normal belts, Grav sites remain unchanged, and unaffected.

There, I just made life a lot more frustrating for macro-ers, win Very Happy

Well, one part of the recent probing changes was cutting down on the amount of different probes you have to carry around, so adding a new probe type may be counterproductive. It would probably easier to introduce a new signature sub-category, like 'Asteroids' separate from 'gravimetric' in the signature group.

The highsec belts could even be dropped into the 'cosmic anomaly' group and thus become detectable via the on-board scanner and are found immediately with any probe dropped with any range.

The high-highsec belts could be spawned with a public beacon so newbs have it easier to find their first rocks. They may even be restricted to frigates (and cruisers) only to keep the strip miners out, ensuring a more fair start for newbs on veldspar and securing the supply of tritaniu8m needed for the tutorial mission lines. Then again Chribba wouldn't be able to use the Veldnaught anymore (so maybe exclude DreadnaughtsVery Happy)

Lowsec and nosec belts would then be in the signature category and would need normal probing. That would give miners that bit more warning to get their slowpokes out of the belts into safety, reducing the risk of a ship loss and making mining there at least a little bit more viable. This is by no means a solution to lowsec but it'd help.

Moving the belts into exploration would make current macros useless. But I am sure they'll just add a probing macro to it. As long as people buy ISK we will have farmers, macro, sweatshop or private business. Can't cure the disease by curbing the symptoms.


Anyways, more input is welcome. The more ideas the devs get exposed to the more likely it is they come up with something useful.Laughing

Bigpimping
Pimp Inc.
Posted - 2009.06.01 20:36:00 - [146]
 

Nice ideas Abrazzar, I agree with making more to do with mining, ie scanning belts and such, but making it a pure mini-game would get verrrrry repetitive as you say.

Anyone who has ever played puzzle pirates *shudder* will know what I mean.

Lady Substance
Posted - 2009.06.01 23:20:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: ShadowDraqon
How about...

~ Remove belts from the overview.
~ Add a "belt probe" that can be launched from your cargo. Barges will have a built-in probe.
~ One scan, with one probe reveals all normal belts, Grav sites remain unchanged, and unaffected.

There, I just made life a lot more frustrating for macro-ers, win Very Happy


except you didnt, because they will just add scanning to the initial part of the macro, then bookmark and continue on their merry way.

Marchocias
Posted - 2009.06.21 11:56:00 - [148]
 

Very nice ideas:

The variable ore asteroids could work, but it may take too much balancing, and I'm not sure that it is that necessary. I think the single ore asteroids are good enough, and keeps a nice simple programming implementation.

I very much like the self-adjusting respawn rate idea; if different ore types had different adjustments to their respawn rate it would be ideal, as it would generate more incentive to head to losec for the increasingly rare mid to high end ores.

I also very much like the scannable belts. I think some static belts should be kept in 0.8-1.0 sec, for the noobs, but then all other belts in 0.7 down should either be found via the system scanner, or for more lucrative belts, the probing system.

ight8
Posted - 2009.07.26 00:17:00 - [149]
 

Lot's of good idea's. Definitely mining should be more interactive, and in some way it should compete with level 4 isk faucets (missions) in a way that defeats the use of macro's. I don't see why mining can't be a low sec ninja opp of sorts. IMO as it stands it's greater reward to run a lvl 4 mission in empire then it is to run a mining ship down to 0.0 for ore that would make mining it worth the risk. leave trit and pye for the youngins to make some safe isk in empire, but make it viable to send your clone and a 150 million isk ship into what could possibly be several warp bubbles and/or sure death. I like the idea of combining risk of low sec 0.0 with mining without having to join major alliance politics or prices. I like the scanning idea. Hiding is usually a carebear's best attribute :-P

IDK chop this idea into a million pieces, flame on, do what you do, but think of something creative and different.

Khengis Connie
Posted - 2009.07.28 09:11:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Khengis Connie on 28/07/2009 09:27:55
Edited by: Khengis Connie on 28/07/2009 09:27:04
Miners need more choice in their ships and equipment than is available today. Mining ships come in three sizes – destroyer (Retriever), cruiser (Covetor), and battle cruiser (Hulk). It takes 4-6 weeks to train from the Retriever to the Covetor, but for a few more days you can jump straight to the Hulk. That needs fixing Confused

Mining equipment needs more choices like that found in weaponry. Let’s have small, medium, and large mining lasers along with the corresponding jumps in PG and CPU requirements. And having meta-level rated mining equipment would give miners something more to look forward to and work towards because of the the higher metas have more desirable characteristics like shorter cycle times, greater range, increased mining rates, and reduced cap usage. But additional training would be required.

Being strictly a miner, your career is pretty much over once u get to a Hulk. And although I have never flown Orcas or Rorqals, it seems it would be even more boring than mining ships Rolling Eyes So I have two proposals to lengthen the miner’s short career ladder – create a super Hulk and introduce Remote Control Support Ships (RCSS’s for short).

RCSS’s would be frigate or industrial sized ships that are remotely piloted from a mothership with specialties like Haulers (running ore from mining fleet to in-system station), Salvagers (recycling all the wrecks of pirates that annoyed you while you were mining), and possibly frigate-sized Miners and/or Defense (combat) ships that can be used like drones (assuming game balance could be maintained). The miner would have to buy skill books and modules to retrofit older ships to have the RCSS capability, or buy newer ships with it built in like the super Hulk (which I’ll dub the Megaladon).

Because these ships are controlled via telemetric links, remote piloted ships will have penalties in the form of slow command response times, reduced agility, and decreased weapons accuracy compared to their manned counterparts, but the pilot can compensate for this by going through training (training listed below). By the time the training is maxed out there will no longer be a link penalty. To make things more interesting, we can link the RCSS ship’s capabilities to the real pilot’s skills levels. You have to train for gunnery or missiles, engineering, electronics, and etc for your RCSS's just like a ship you would fly into combat yourself. (Gives miners an incentive to train combat skills.) Lastly, there could be a skill to allow sensor data from remote ships to be relayed back to the mothership and used, so you could send a scout a head of the mining fleet and check for pirates or hostiles or scout for ore.

The Megaladon mining ship will outfit the large laser miners and maybe has a fourth mining laser high slot. Additional high slots should exist for non-laser modules like RCSS controllers, Drone controllers, or gang link modules. (Or for a real giggle, how about a bubble shield generator capable of enveloping multiple members of the mining fleet just to annoy gankers. But obviously not be too strong.) And the cargo hold size doesn’t really have to increase over the Hulk because you now have RCSS Haulers that can run ore back to a station, which may not be feasible in lowsec but oh well. I would also give more mid and low slots so the tank of the Mega can be increased. I imagine it will be used in 0.0 so it needs to be more defendable.

Continued...


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