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Radix Salvilines
legion industries ltd
AAA Citizens
Posted - 2008.01.08 02:04:00 - [1]

Edited by: Radix Salvilines on 08/01/2008 03:36:31
Edited by: Radix Salvilines on 08/01/2008 03:29:55

Hello warriors of EVE!

After playing a bit of other mmogs and seeing how things are i realised that some games have a nice feature - arenas. Places for peoples to fight without the fear of loosing precious assets :) I thought i may present u my views on how it might look in EVE.

INTRODUCTION: EVE is a pvp game. Everything including trading, npcing, mining etc comes in the end to pvp. But still peoples that take the most from pvp, from its basic and brutal essence - with guns and direct ship losses are in minority. The rest either fear of loosing implants, money they have earned so hard, had no opportunities to learn pvp, fear to start to pvp when they will loose a lots of stuff at the beginning of education, or are simply new to the game - and mistakenly think they have not enough sp's to rock'n'roll.
I have the solution.

PART 1: Virtual Training Arena.
Ever wanted to test some fitting (3rd party fitting tools are not enough for you) with your brand new ship? Or maby how this ship ure skilling for will really perform? Try a mission not moving anywhere before accepting it? Or maby your friends dont like making another copy of eve to run Sinqularity? Perhaps you just want to have a small match with a guy from local that is smacking you... now he wont have any excuses Cool

VTA is an another station service - be it usable if u have the station owners in 'liked by' or by paying a small fee - where u can do and test anything u want:
a) Fly any ship and use any module regardless of your skills and money in wallet,
b) abilty to invite anyone to your training session,
c) u set the rules in your room (ex. no concord, low sec. standing hits, no criminal flagging, no guns, no drones, no frigates or everything on at once :)),
d) you do not loose anything, no kill mails, no kill rights, pod kills yes but its only virtual,
e) ability to load up any environoment (mission, belt, complex, clear space...) and see how u can perform in it,
f) most importantly - training. Ever feared to pvp because you can loose something - you dotn have to anymore,
g) abilty to load up any npc rat and check how to kill it best :)
f) test fleet maneuvers and layouts.

Now i know this may divert some pplz from real pvp - but eh u wont make any money with it. Real pvpers will still pvp because they live on it. The rest that dont normally pvp will finaly have some better means to move to low sec.

How it may work - while docked at the station (or outpost) player clicks on the VTA button causing a window opening. There he may choose the rules (like use my skill chart, use max skill chart etc)(like in point d)), take a ship from the list, fit it with what he wants to, put implants int head, choose environoment and launch. Now other players that are docked may either apply to join this player are recieve an invitation. With new players VTA automatically resets (adjustable) and everyone are getting new ships and random (or fixed - as they wish) starting locations. From now on only their imagination sets the borders :) After training session has ended players return to the station and everything is as it was before :)

This all may look a bit complex - to implement and whipe out the bugs, thou the possibilities are great :D

Also i know that if someone has the opportunity to see everything in the game at once - he dont want to play it anymore... thats the only BIG problem i see. Well then perhaps
scratching point a) from the list above would make it look better.

Players comments:
Will add here as there will be any :P

Radix Salvilines
legion industries ltd
AAA Citizens
Posted - 2008.01.08 02:05:00 - [2]

Edited by: Radix Salvilines on 08/01/2008 03:40:19
PART 2: The Tournament.
To start - EVE alliance tournaments are great, but only a small number or the chosen ones can participate in actively - the rest can only watch or try some player made, non-secure player tournaments that can be found in Events eve-o forum section. Thats bad Exclamation

Tournament Office - would be an another new station service. In here players would be able to compete about something. Once someone sets up a tournament interrested peoples may sign in and they are recieving a bookmark to warp to. Every other player may join but only in a pod. Pods are invulnerable in this bm and once there they cant move - only warp out. Ah they must also sign in but as spectators (or perhaps just watch the fight using some remote cameras while sitting in the stations). I would divide these tournaments into 3 sub-divisions.
a)Alliance tournament - can be set up only by an alliance executor.
This tournament may be in-alliance or open. In-alliance means - just for fun. Executor puts something valueable for the prize and peoples fight for it. Each member may (adjustable) be reqired to put in some signing-in fee. Money can be used to fund some alliance stuff.
Open are a bit different. Tired of big fleet battles? Again smacked by goons (Laughing)? Well you dont have to throw humongous numbers of ships on your foe - challenge him to a tournament or a simple match. You choose your best fighters and you will fight for the sovereingty of a contested system between you two, pos or an outpost... or whatever u want.
And everything is of course secured by the eve system :)

b)Corporate tournaments.
Like above but with corporations. CEOs and directors may pick up corp assets as prizes.

c) Player tournaments.
The main thing here.
There could be private and public tournaments. Private restricted to members of a certain corp or alliance, public - free access for all.

How this may work: Now a player clicks on the Tournament Office button. He chooses a player public tournament. Unlike VTA u can use only your stuff here with your present skill and if you loose something - you loose it just like in normal pvp. Okay now its time to set who can join (max/min sp's) from the public. Next are prize settings. If a player wants to make some isks out of this tournament he may want to set the minimum accumulated isk amount (rate) for the tournament to begin. And the joining fee + number of slots for participants. The tournament may also start if the timer for it runs out, max number of participants has been reached or the host is satisfied with the things how they are :)
Many things may be adjusted, like - faction,t2 modules (yes/no), only frigates, only t2 cruisers, no rigs, and so and so.

There are many possibilties of scamming, but i think it may be well worked out to avoid any. Perhaps rha ability to make tournaments once per 2 weeks per playes, no trial accounts, high sec stations and alliance outposts only, no tourmanent possibilty if there was any fights in the systems for some time (to prevent peoples escaping to "safe" tournament deadspaces once in trouble).

Place for goos comments and additions:
Will put some later :P

Radix Salvilines
legion industries ltd
AAA Citizens
Posted - 2008.01.08 02:06:00 - [3]

Edited by: Radix Salvilines on 08/01/2008 03:29:17
The Grand Tournament.
Why not create a real league with matches and finals every month or so. The present Alliance Tournament feels like scripted by developpers actions of npcs in cRPGs gamez Very Happy
Rare and well... the hand of God (devs) can be felt everywhere hehe.

I see it like that: Every faction in EVE should have its own league. Of course participating in any of them is not restricted by player race. The winners of the faction-level tournaments would then have the opportunity to join the dev-hoted party like-nowdays-style. Ah and a player may join only one of the factions.

By signing in players may challenge their competitors from above the position in the list of theirs positions (player a with 300 points cant challenge player b with 50 points, but b can challenge a). If player b defeats player a - he gets like 10% of the pwned guy points. That goes for 3 months. In the last week the first 100 are being scheduled by the system for deathmatches into groups. Phase one - 40 that won the most dm goes on. phase 2 10, phase 3 - 4, last phase - the finals 2 that left.

The winner gets a t2 bpo or a faction ship or whatever :) And a golden star on his show info screen for one month as the current champion of the faction.

Like i said before all winners (perhaps forst 3 podium posistions of each empire faction) can go to the (Faction Warfare hehe) even bigger tournament, hosted on eve-tv where champions of each faction would fight each others for some even bigger prize :)

Basically the aim is to make pvp and tournaments open to everyone, not only those best adapted ones :)
Well i hope someone will like the whole thing - now get to commenting and posting!

Posted - 2008.01.08 11:53:00 - [4]

I'm sorry, I didn't read all of your ideas but this concept was proposed by someone else not all that long ago and it got some mixed responses.

I personally like the basic concept of organised combat arenas, but I really dislike the idea of not losing your assets.

I'd like to see it used in a way that facilitated small gang combats that could be spectated, that there could be a complete tournament system and a grudge system.

The idea of keeping your faction battleship for tournament use and actually having an edge instead of having it blobbed in 3 secs in a fleet battle is appealing.

You could have wars settled by champions. The 5, 10, 20, 30 etc best of each faction gun it out rather than an 800 strong blob fest.

Arena matches could have set ship class loadouts ie: each team is allowed a maximum
1x battlecruiser, 4x cruiser, 4x destroyer, and 10x frigates.
2x battleship, 4x battle cruiser etc etc

That way, if a faction wants to destroy the other factions Titan, they have to risk a Titan of their own or else risk not being competitive in the arena.

It also forces the use of tactics rather than just simple numbers. Picking out specific roles for each ship in the arena, because of the loadout restrictions.

Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2008.01.08 13:18:00 - [5]

Oh no. Not again. Sad.

oh well here I go...

EVE is a universe, a society that strives for immersion and the suspension of disbelief. Arenas are 'games' that break immersion. Risking your ship is the depths of space is just that - you against the unknown, the unpredicatable.
Arenas are predictable, governed and therefore risk averse.

Arenas will divert people for the real and genuine conflicts that EVE thrives upon - few people actually make much ISK from PVP. There should be real, and quite genuine fear invoked when you PVP, not some fluffy carebeary Arena that you choose to participate in.

CCP - introduce Arenas and my account at the least will be dropped.


Jaketh Ivanes
House of El
Posted - 2008.01.08 14:58:00 - [6]

If you want an arena, then just start one. Anchor 4 cans in a square (perhaps 8 to make it a cube). Arrange some teams and rules and invite people to use it. You can supervise it as you see fit.

Just don't look to CCP for closed, safe arena's, as thats is against the spirit of EvE (you have to take some risk). I should be able to backstab everyone in an arena, if I want to.

Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.01.08 15:40:00 - [7]

This is not WOW. plz don't ruin our nice game like that. Why do people want to fight without losing anything? EVE would actually be really boring when you wouldnt need to risk your hard earned isk in every fight. Whats so great to have the possibility to fly everyting and have every module available? Just go to the test server if u want a battle arena (im sure after a few hours u'll get bored). CCP already nerfed big parts of the game to f*** to allow new players to have an easier life. But hey, lets make EVE the game of peace and love.

move LVL4 Missions to lowsec + create lowsec space between regions kthx :D

Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.08 17:33:00 - [8]

How about deadspace complex's owned by each faction?

You and your buddies/opponents pay X isk for entry and get pre-fit (T1) ships to pew pew with.
Officials stand by to ensure there is no podding.

Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.08 17:59:00 - [9]

I read as far as 'not wanting to lose precious assets' and got annoyed - if you have to ask why, then you'll never understand!!

However, you want a 'training' area where you and your buddies can go test stuff to destruction without fear of losing any isk?

It's called the test server (or singularity) it's there, it's free, and it's all yours.

However, the whole point of EvE is that you are out there, in a real universe, struggling to survive in a cold harsh environment, against the odds, using what tools are at your disposal to survive - that's why people get so annoyed when other people log off to avoid losing a ship, it's supposed to be a roleplaying space game, and you can't log out of real life!

Posted - 2008.01.09 03:09:00 - [10]

An arena system isn't all that different from a war declaration in empire space, when you think about it from some of the "go bak 2 wow, carebear" mentalities displayed in some replies.

Actually, the whole carebear thing is unjustified because studies show that only around a quarter of typical players enjoy an environment where they can be engaged in combat without their consent.

Why do you think high sec is so popular? In fact, why do you think high sec exists? If the game should cater entirely to "hardcore" players, why even bother with a high sec region?

Open up the star map and color stars by number of players in system. Why does high sec glow red and null sec seems to be a sea of white dots with an occasional yellow blip?

In general, CCP should be catering to the majority as a priority. Instead they tend to cater to the minority in the hopes they can force carebears into PvPers.

At the end of the day, I'd rather arena combat with fixed numbers of combatants on any one team, actual tactics and the guarantee of not dying from lag.

I think someone mentioned logging off to save your ship being hated by players because it breaks immersion - ie: you can't log out of real life. Well when I hop into my car each day, I very rarely wonder if I'll have a fatal accident because of lag.

Originally by: Trent Nichols
and get pre-fit (T1) ships to pew pew with.
Nah. That would ruin it. Using your own ship set up how you like it would be better.

I generally think of it this way: If you can't afford to lose it, you can't afford to fly it.

But the idea of a deadspace pocket for arena combat is one I like.

Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2008.01.09 03:29:00 - [11]

Originally by: Arcayan

Open up the star map and color stars by number of players in system. Why does high sec glow red and null sec seems to be a sea of white dots with an occasional yellow blip?

Why? Mainly because people precieve low sec / 0.0 to be more dangerous than it actually is. Open your map again. Now show 'pod kills in the last 24hrs' - notice anything odd? Yep - a suprisingly high % of the pod kills occur in high sec, not low sec. Doesnt look like carebearing to me.

Also you make a poor assumption: that is that the player base is static, that everytime you view your 'pilots in space' its the same people in each location: but it isnt, there's a constant migration back and forth between 0.0, through low sec and into high sec.

Again this can be illustrated by where the most pod and ship kills occur: systems ajoining low sec to high sec, and low sec to 0.0. Those are the classic gate camps and they exist there because of the high % of traffic that passes through them.

Finaly its these gate camps that prevent a mass exodus from high sec into low sec, 0.0: its not that players dont want to experience PVP or lowsec/0.0 its just that most never make it past their first gate camp.


Posted - 2008.01.09 04:19:00 - [12]

Lets agree to respect each others point of view - no matter how wrong yours may be. Razz

Seriously though, people play for different reasons and that is reflected in the fact that there are "safe" spots in nearly all online games. I think I read somewhere UO nearly flopped because it initially had no place where players could be safe from PvP attacks.

If there weren't the carebear players, there would be no need for high sec at all.

Gatecamps are probably emergent gameplay rather than planned, and if that's the case CCP should attempt to fix that problem because they certainly want players to spread outwards towards the null sec areas.

Maybe they've forgotten about fun. Venturing into nullsec for the first time and being podded for your efforts isn't fun.

Maybe addressing problems like choke points is the solution, rather than patching the problem with arenas.

Regardless, something should be done.

Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2008.01.09 07:06:00 - [13]

Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 09/01/2008 07:08:15
Hello warriors of EVE!

You lost my attention right there.

Go back to WoW if you want instant gratification combat, that's what it's there for. Eve is an immersive MMO, and any concessions to instant gratification would most likely harm what makes Eve great. If you really must have your "hit" of eve, go out and pirate. Plenty of folks roam around lowsec looking for a fight, and plenty of them are more than willing to give 1v1, 2v2 and so on a go with predetermined ships.

As for testing things, we have the Singularity test server for that. Any item can be purchased for 1 isk, and there's always a healthy population of people in FD-MLJ looking for a rumble.

Let us not forget that Eve is also intended to be a sandbox, and in that vein there are corporations out there that already organise PVP tournaments in many shapes and forms. Check the appropriate subforum on this site for details.

Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.01.09 23:52:00 - [14]

I fully disagree with the origanal post eve is a game that has become so succsesful because of the sense of loss if u get killed.

if u wanna PvP use a jump clone to safegard your implants and only fly a ship that u can afford to lose! end of

Galactic Rangers
Posted - 2008.01.10 00:16:00 - [15]

if an Arena was introduced it would have to work in this way to not incur the invasion of the carebear...

at a station there would be a new station service to arrange consentual fight in a random (unscanable) location with options to add players and set teams. at this location the two or more players can fight but ship loss will still happen but as soon as the fight has ended and the other side has lost the assets droped fromt he ship will be returned to the player who lost them via arena salvage teams and the other player/s are not allowed to loot the other person/s wreak but all componants and cargo that are destroyed remain destroyed... thus still retaining loss but also giveing a way for consentual combat rights to both players by essentualy sighning a contract as it were stateing that both pilots know the risk involved in combat and concord(CCP) has no responsability int he loss of ships/items/cargo of course there would be a yeild option but would work by both the perrson yeilding and the majority of the oposing team. if over 50% of the oposing team wish to continue then the fight for the person wishing to yeild stays a viable target as soon as this happens the person that yeilded will need to return to the station and wait for another arena game to fight once again.....

this is a basic outline of how i would do it might not be to everyones taste but there it is

Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.10 00:57:00 - [16]

go back to WoW if you want safe PVP =p

Posted - 2008.01.10 05:52:00 - [17]

Originally by: Kryttos
go back to WoW if you want safe PVP =p
I've never played WoW. Does it have unbearable lag too?

Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2008.01.10 08:08:00 - [18]

there are allready 100's if not 1000's of arenas in lowsec and 0.0.


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