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Raven Timoshenko
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.05 16:59:00 - [1]
 

Firstly I presume if you know anything about PC Games in the last decade it would be the game System Shock and its successor : System Shock 2.

IMO, the best Sci-Fi / RPG / FPS / Horror game to date. I still play it from time to time. (Ahh Memories)

Now: If anyone recalls who has played SS2 Will recall the simple but brilliant system of hacking terminals, doors, lockers and so forth.
Essentially it was a small mini-game which required the player to connect three nodes in a straight line on a grid in order to gain access. However the more difficult the lock, the more harder it was to get a straight line because some of the ICE nodes, which if you tripped would sound the alarm.
Now the player could specialize his skills just like in EVE, and his skills would in turn determine how easy it was to hack a node as well as determine the amount of ICE nodes on the grid.
If he did not have the skills, he could still attempt to hack the nodes, but the difficulty would increase exponentially depending on the difficulty of the lock and what his current skills were, in short it was a mixture of luck and deduction for a player who did not have the requisite skills to hack the node in a given amount of time.

Now my suggestion is - why not implement something like this in EVE? Think about the additional depth of game play that comes into the picture with such a mini-game:

1) Hacking: A pilot discovers a low level hacking site, he has the hacking module but his skills aren't to great. He pulls up to the Hacking point and activates it..depending on his skills there are X amount of Nodes and Y amount of "Trip Wire" Nodes...if he attempts to hack, his skills determine how many of the "trip wire" nodes are exposed, the system gives him some feedback in terms of clues (Think Mine Sweeper) when he is getting near a dangerous node, again this is modified by skills.
Now if he sets of a Trip-wire, the container goes BOOM!! destroying the loot and possibly damaging or destroying his ship as well.
Also: Failing to successfully complete the hack or aborting it, requires that the pilot wait a few minutes for the system to "reset", he can then try again, but a whole new game begins.

2) Archeology: Same situation above, except this time the mini-game is different. Instead of a "Fail / Succeed" Situation there is a varying degree of rewards - from nothing to major rewards based on the level of the complex.
Imagine that the pilot gets to an archeology site and starts digging around, firstly instead of going directly to main "Can" point, he has to examine the local doodads (such as an abandoned mining station, monument etc) for clues and piece together what has happened here..sort of like a detective story.
Each of the local doodads may have some written clue when the player targets and examines them with his Archeology module, this will give him some feedback in the local chat. again, this is moderated by his archeology skills, the clues may be incomplete or misleading, and he then has to decide on what to accept or what to discard. Once he thinks he has enough info, he approaches the Archeology Can, however in this case he commences a "Dialog" with the can (like how we do with NPCs) using what he has learned he
will be prompted with a series of riddle like questions, depending on how well he has scanned (which was dependent on the archeology skill) , he can choose from an array of responses, make his own deductions based on incomplete information, or just damn well guess and hope for the best.
Now once he has awnsered all the questions, he will get a reward depending on how well he did, but he can do this only ONCE. The archeology point is exhausted in the process.




Raven Timoshenko
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.05 17:10:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Raven Timoshenko on 05/01/2008 17:20:32
3) Astrogeology (mining): Miners! no longer do you need to just keep shooting at roids all day! now you can play for high stakes! Here is how this works:
After targeting an asteroid, and Scanning it, the computer will return with "Trace element anomalies". The miner can choose to examine the anomalies at this point, and this will pop the mini-game window. Imagine a square grid, that grows depending on the asteroid (i.e the bigger and more rare the roid, the bigger the grid, the more difficult the game) The idea is that the miner is now attempting to use his lasers to pin-point and extract the anomalous reading using his lasers. The grid will show up a 2d representation of the roid's interior, each square representing a portion of the ore in the roid, depending on his skills ( or guesswork , deduction, sheer dumb luck) the miner can attempt to burn away the surrounding ore and isolate the anomaly... each time he activates his laser on a particular square, and depending on his skills, a portion of the ore is destroyed , the rest claimed as usual, and a feedback clue comes up in the surrounding ore as a change of colour, a new written feedback etc. The anomaly may be a hidden item, or even a rare mineral that does not usually show up in the current type of roid or region. ( This last game is still rather rough but I hope you get the idea)
Thus miners can continue to mine as normal OR play this little game for high stakes..

Comments please!

Aneroi
Amarr
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.05 17:20:00 - [3]
 

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

The mining minigame using your example might have different amount of ore in deifferent squares.

Low Content - 90% of normal ore amount.
Standard Content - 100% of normal ore amount
High Content - 110% of normal ore amount
Pure - 120% of normal amount

Raven Timoshenko
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.05 17:24:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Aneroi
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

The mining minigame using your example might have different amount of ore in different squares.

Low Content - 90% of normal ore amount.
Standard Content - 100% of normal ore amount
High Content - 110% of normal ore amount
Pure - 120% of normal amount


Yes , That would be cool, it would make things even more interesting for the miner, should he avoid the square and claim the complete amount? should he go for it and get a better reading? Oh the agony of choice!

Raven Timoshenko
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.06 11:03:00 - [5]
 

/bump

vinnymcg
Glukkons
Posted - 2008.01.06 13:35:00 - [6]
 

Nice idea, but failing terribly at this game should still get you the normal amount of ore

HeadWar
The Executioners
Capital.Punishment
Posted - 2008.01.06 15:42:00 - [7]
 

Could this somehow be implemented to discourage macro mining as well?

On the other hand, one of the favourite pastimes of NSN is drunk mining ops. Not sure that would work too well together with a mini-game involving logic. Laughing

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.01.06 16:31:00 - [8]
 

/signed

Buyerr
Posted - 2008.01.07 00:24:00 - [9]
 

nice idea

nighthawkcm
Minmatar
German Kings
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2008.01.07 04:08:00 - [10]
 

/signed

Aneroi
Amarr
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.07 07:38:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: vinnymcg
Nice idea, but failing terribly at this game should still get you the normal amount of ore


Originally by: HeadWar
Could this somehow be implemented to discourage macro mining as well?

On the other hand, one of the favourite pastimes of NSN is drunk mining ops. Not sure that would work too well together with a mini-game involving logic. Laughing


You both missed that you don't HAVE to mine this way? you could still mine like we mine now. And get a predictable outcome. Or do the minigame and hope for the best

Sahriah BloodStone
Caldari
Black Skull Squadron
Posted - 2008.01.07 11:51:00 - [12]
 

/signed

Excellent ideas. The mining has a huge potential to stop/reduce macro mining. For example, this popup occurs when you first start mining as a "automatic initial scan of the roids in the area within X amount" you must manually accept(to start minigame)or bypass(to ignore it)this popup to start mining. At this stage the automatic scan will be put on a timer of X amount and appear again when the timer runs out. If no response to this popup is made the mining lazers on the ship terminate at the end of there last cycle.

No idea what X amount should be.. maybe every 1hr? 2 or 3? Anything under 1 hour is probably silly.

Thinking about this further i believe it should be a random occurence anytime after 1hr. This would stop macros from adapting (if its possible) to auto close the popup every 1hr 2min or whatever :)
Thoughts?

Tek'a Rain
Gallente
Collegium Mechanicae
Posted - 2008.01.07 14:01:00 - [13]
 

Remember that an advanced macro is more then recorded mouse clicks.
Pop-ups, moving interfaces and the like designed to stop macros will more likely annoy legit users, making them stop mining, making the macros more profitable.. its a terrible cycle.

Basically, Automated annoyance is only annoying to things that are not automated.

How would you like to find out that macro-hulks are stripping belts even Faster with a program thats reading the screens and figuring out the puzzles faster then you?

not a detraction to the "adding interesting things" idea of course, just dont want people to laud it as a macro-killer.

Raven Timoshenko
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.07 14:03:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Sahriah BloodStone
/signed

Excellent ideas. The mining has a huge potential to stop/reduce macro mining. For example, this popup occurs when you first start mining as a "automatic initial scan of the roids in the area within X amount" you must manually accept(to start minigame)or bypass(to ignore it)this popup to start mining. At this stage the automatic scan will be put on a timer of X amount and appear again when the timer runs out. If no response to this popup is made the mining lazers on the ship terminate at the end of there last cycle.

No idea what X amount should be.. maybe every 1hr? 2 or 3? Anything under 1 hour is probably silly.

Thinking about this further i believe it should be a random occurence anytime after 1hr. This would stop macros from adapting (if its possible) to auto close the popup every 1hr 2min or whatever :)
Thoughts?



Hmm, honestly I never thought about using the mining game as a deterrence to macro-miners, the game for mining is meant to be purely optional, so people who play it have a more involved experience in mining and may be rewarded for their trouble.
Whether it should be a system which defeats macro-miners *shrug*

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2008.01.07 14:27:00 - [15]
 

I'm sure there are tricky enough minds at CCP to create a fun and complicated and not only pure logic based mining game that will fill the miner's time when not afk.

If something like this happens, the basic yield of mining could be reduced and successful yield with mini game could be twice more important as without it, then mining becomes less a dumb 'F1 F2 F3 move ore' activity.

Also, making mining a full time activity which is totally missing actually.

Usaretama
Exiled Guard
Posted - 2008.01.07 15:03:00 - [16]
 

/signed
Maybe tie in traps other than explosions to the arch/hacking games? Something like "You accidentally trip a beacon in the computer system, which calls for help." All of a sudden, there's defense turrets and drones coming out from everywhere.

Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.01.07 22:41:00 - [17]
 

/signed

I would enjoy my exploration to be a little more SKILL based than chance based as it is now. Give me something to do while I wait 10 minutes for my Analyzer to crack open a really difficult can (maybe make it faster?). Ive even spent upwards of 20 on one (granted, I got a really awesome item at the end). It should also be noted that sometimes when you are hacking/analyzing, cans CAN fail and cause booby traps, damaging your ship (although not much), destroying contents, and calling in rats. I dont know whether this is pre-determined, or based on some failure probability. It would be good to know.

Personally, Im in favor of anything that makes mining more interesting (read: more involved) as that would defeat macro miners. Maybe even something along the lines of those visual puzzles that some websites use to prevent bots from logging in would be nice.

Further extending: perhaps salvaging too?

Sahriah BloodStone
Caldari
Black Skull Squadron
Posted - 2008.01.07 23:40:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Raven Timoshenko
Originally by: Sahriah BloodStone
/signed

Excellent ideas. The mining has a huge potential to stop/reduce macro mining. For example, this popup occurs when you first start mining as a "automatic initial scan of the roids in the area within X amount" you must manually accept(to start minigame)or bypass(to ignore it)this popup to start mining. At this stage the automatic scan will be put on a timer of X amount and appear again when the timer runs out. If no response to this popup is made the mining lazers on the ship terminate at the end of there last cycle.

No idea what X amount should be.. maybe every 1hr? 2 or 3? Anything under 1 hour is probably silly.

Thinking about this further i believe it should be a random occurence anytime after 1hr. This would stop macros from adapting (if its possible) to auto close the popup every 1hr 2min or whatever :)
Thoughts?



Hmm, honestly I never thought about using the mining game as a deterrence to macro-miners, the game for mining is meant to be purely optional, so people who play it have a more involved experience in mining and may be rewarded for their trouble.
Whether it should be a system which defeats macro-miners *shrug*



But it is optional thats the point, you choose yes or no, doesnt stop normal miners, they click yes or no, maybe loose 2-5min of mining, but for macros that are afk 23/7 it would make there job much more difficult. This would be good for normal miners as the macros die, less ore = more demand, so the real miners sell there money for higher price :)

MenanceWhite
Amarr
Emi Raaf's Corporation
Posted - 2008.01.08 03:02:00 - [19]
 

Will we be able to buy things called "icepicks" that helps hacking?Laughing

Raven Timoshenko
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.08 03:31:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: MenanceWhite
Will we be able to buy things called "icepicks" that helps hacking?Laughing


Lol, Maybe, dunno Razz

Jackaryas
Caldari
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2008.01.08 17:11:00 - [21]
 

Some brilliant ideas there rvaen, apply for a job at ccp lol

Chani Fedaykin
Posted - 2008.01.08 18:05:00 - [22]
 

the minigame idea is very nice ... i would propose to make it optional in general.

you can opt to do it the old way (hacking, archeology, mining) ... with the 'usual' outcome.

if you choose to do the game, it will take you more time (hacking, archeology), provides some little distraction to the 'usual' gameplay ... but should offer the benefit of potential higher reward.

thus a macro miner eg could still do it the old way (without requiring any specific attention) but would most predictably gain less than a 'minigame' miner in the same time.
or you can choose to do the hacking the 'standard' way and finish it fast (perhaps because you dont have much time, or are already annoyed by the minigame) - but if you choose to 'play' the minigame, you have the chance to gain a much better profit of the site. (similar with archeology)

Raven Timoshenko
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.09 03:12:00 - [23]
 

Well sure, keep it optional across the board, that way people who arent too keen on the games and go about their business the usual way while people who want to get something extra from the whole affair play the mini-game.

Good idea. Razz

Raven Timoshenko
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.10 02:21:00 - [24]
 

/bump

Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.01.10 20:26:00 - [25]
 

Even if, at the very least, a minigame isn't implemented, it'd be a good idea to make things like mining/archeology/hacking more involved than simply pointing and clicking "go". Yes, its true, combat is similar 'point click' but it differs on one key area: its a fight for your (virtual) life and thats pretty exciting in and of itself. Its easy to make missions harder by making rats act more like players, but there is not really much of a risk to something like mining.

As to macros completing mini-games better than humans: most macros are -really- dumb, and the smart ones are -really- hard to make. A macro probably consists of looking at the Eve interface as a grid, and directing mouse-click/drags accordingly. If something is off by so much as a pixel, it fails.

Karentaki
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.01.10 22:10:00 - [26]
 

Best idea I've heard so far to make mining/archaeology/hacking interesting, and at the same time reduce the impact of macro/afk miners on the economy. Just a few points:

- Asteroids should only ever contain ore when doing that minigame.
- It shouldn't be too easy to get low-sec ores in highsec (maybe 1 asteroid's worth per system max)

Also, I have another idea:

Some asteroids in 0.8 space and down could contain rogue-drone colonies, that when mined would trigger an attack significantly stronger than the highest 'normal' spawn for that system. e.g. in a 0.8 system it might spawn 5/6 frigates, while in a 0.5 system it might spawn 2 cruisers and 3 frigates, and in 0.0 6 BS + support might show up Twisted Evil - This shouldn't just be totally random however - while the asteroids would have the same name, and look roughly the same colour (just to be evil to macros), they would be easily distinguishable to a human who actually looked before starting mining (small structures and general 'weathered' look on the surface), and asteroid scanners would identify them as 'Infested Asteroids' or something similar. There would usually be 2-10 of these asteroids in an average system, meaning that it would not bother normal miners much, but anyone who wasn't paying attention would be running the risk of getting swarmed by angry rogue drones YARRRR!!. Also, since these asteroids couldn't be mined out like normal ones, they would change locations randomly, within the same system, every time the asteroids got replenished.

Obviously - this could lead to some problems:

Griefers - Warp into a belt with a newb/afk miner, find an infested asteroid, put your laser on it for 2 seconds, warp out, come back 5 minutes later in a combat ship to kill the rats and scoop the loot from the newb/afk miner who got ganked. - This would be very annoying, so simply, the drones would only attack the person who tried mining the asteroid, and would despawn after about 30 minutes.

Making mining harder for newbs - If a newb goes mining in a 0.7 system in his nice new mining cruiser (with civilian fittings obviously Razz), tries mining 'the interesting asteroid that looks valuable' and promptly dies. He then puts a rant on the forums, and quits. - This could be easily solved by putting some mention of it in the tutorial, and also possibly putting in a warning for the first time a player tries mining an 'infested asteroid', which will only show once.

Also, /signed Very Happy

Raven Timoshenko
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.11 03:49:00 - [27]
 

Nice to see so many people keen on the idea Very Happy

Raven Timoshenko
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.12 07:12:00 - [28]
 

/bump

Raven Timoshenko
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.14 12:34:00 - [29]
 

/bump

Raven Timoshenko
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.16 05:49:00 - [30]
 

no more inputs?

/bump


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