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General Petraeus
Caldari
Posted - 2007.12.28 10:52:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Jack Target
Is there really going to be a speed nerf or is this just a rumour? Can someone provide a link to the dev blog that says this nerf might happen?

I like fast ships, so I'm hoping there will not be a nerf.


I hope so ships are now faster than they have ever been.

EQUINAX
Minmatar
ECLIPTIC HORIZON
Posted - 2007.12.28 10:54:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: EQUINAX
Edited by: EQUINAX on 28/12/2007 07:07:20
Originally by: shinsushi
Originally by: EQUINAX
The only MWD's that should exist in game are the 1MN ones. It's more practical for frigate class ships to have speed, everything else should have enough range or use an afterburner to get there while the frigate holds down the target.


I don't think I can agree with this.

Blasterboats live and die by MWDs, as do minnie ships. I could stand by a reduction in MWD efficiency as they move up in size, but to completely anhilate them would be to destroy a number of play methods, and thats not a good thing.


How about just changing ammo according to how far from the target you are?


What range do you imagine you can get with blasters using the longest range ammo?


1 million kilometers Rolling Eyes ....PvP nowadays is either right on top of the target or snipers. I'd like a little more variety please.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.12.28 11:40:00 - [33]
 

Speed nerf is essentially a dumbing down of the game

*) high speed setups take more personal skill to use - because if you make mistake you get caught and destroyed easily.
*) high speed setups require more control of the ship, "twitch play", trying to keep the right distance from the enemy and not getting too far. Turning MWD on and off when needed. More button clicking involved overall.
*) high speed setups require larger investments from the player's character. Need to have more isk, need to have high skills. It is something one has to work on long and hard unless you are just lucky being rich with GTCs or T2 BPOs.

Any nerf to high end speed setups is a small but noticeable dumbing down of average play style.

Detrol
Caldari
Posted - 2007.12.28 11:42:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Venus Felix
Sure, I could spend a few bil on a Rokh with Pith-X booster and a Crystal set but that is still dead as soon as you run into a 5-man gang with decent setups.


That's what people are saying here Venus,

the speed ships are also dead (and much sooner) when they run into a gang specialized to take them out.

As more and more nanoships are showing up, more and more people are fitting their ships to take out nanoships.

The whole frustration with WCS, nanoships and all is that your target can decide to run off when it wants too, leaving you behind without a kill. I don't see the difference between a nanoship and a heavily trained, specialized ecm boat that scrambles you, permajams you and slowly eats you up while you cannot even lock him back. He too can decide to run off if he wants to.

J Valkor
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.12.28 12:04:00 - [35]
 

That is a false analogy. But you know that. Just like every excuse maker here knows in their hearts of hearts that their ship is broken. It is not like I blame you or dislike you for it, it is a rational response. Most of you would still be flying your nano BS if you could.

Cornette
Gallente
Solar Revenue Service
TAXU
Posted - 2007.12.28 13:57:00 - [36]
 

By now I've read hundreds of posts from people stating either that "nanos is ruining the game nerf it!!1" or "no nanos if fine learn to play n00b!!1"

Most of the whines are from people I believe whines just for the sake of whining, it seem to have evolved into a trend where whiners meet up on the forum and start moaning as **** about #insert-monthly-whine-about-this-here# because it is the hip thing to do. So it took me some time to sort trough the rubbish for sensible arguments for and against a speed nerf.

Now I think there is truth in both statements - the game gets broken when people get near immunity and the only thing that can kill them is if they do a stupid misstake. Snake implants and polys are the main culprits here. When speed get so stupidly fast that hugins/rapiers doesn't work anymore then there is something wrong.

But speed is also the only thing that can really challenge blobs. Some of the whines against nanos are from people in alliances that have no other tactics but making a blob. That a gang of five man have the nerve to intrude into their space, kill a ratter or two and then run away when they bring 50 man to kill them makes them furious. Nevermind that the same people see no problem with bringing a 300+ man fleet into a system and slow down the node to a halt that is unplayable.

Now it seems we will get a speednerf, I just hope it is a sensible solution that does not take the role away from the Vagabond. Yes I do fly Vagabonds myself but its not the only ship I use. Its one among many ships I choose among depending on the situation. I don't use any speed implants or faction setups either. But I would hate to see it be turned into just another cruiser with no real role.

It will be interesting to see if CCP creates a good balance on the whole picture or if they are lazy and do a "kill-the-patitent" thing by overnerfing. In the meantime the debate continues.


//Cornette

JamnOne
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.28 16:37:00 - [37]
 

Is a speed boat FOTM? If it is, then more than likely it will be nerfed. If it isn't, then no.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.28 16:37:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 28/12/2007 16:39:33
agree Cornette i have the same opinion

Originally by: Ephemeron
Speed nerf is essentially a dumbing down of the game

*) high speed setups take more personal skill to use - because if you make mistake you get caught and destroyed easily.
*) high speed setups require more control of the ship, "twitch play", trying to keep the right distance from the enemy and not getting too far. Turning MWD on and off when needed. More button clicking involved overall.
*) high speed setups require larger investments from the player's character. Need to have more isk, need to have high skills. It is something one has to work on long and hard unless you are just lucky being rich with GTCs or T2 BPOs.

Any nerf to high end speed setups is a small but noticeable dumbing down of average play style.


1. Other ships need that to, even Blasterships is not easy F1-F8 most of the times if you are not in a big Gang. Controlling Range is essencial for most of the Ships with guns and make quite a diffrence in Piloting especialy against multiply targets. It is challaging to use a Nano Ship but others are also not dump in use and require personal Skill. Yes I have a Fleet Stabber to. Wink

2. If people would loose this ships more often they would not do it. If I spend the equal Amount on my Deimos I would be killed in so many more situations where I canīt retreat.
Why would this People not spend this ISK on a Faction Tank plus a Slave set. The awnser is simple they would die more often.

Dumping down the "advertage playstyle of Nano" mayby will give other playsyles a comback. ATM if I fit Nano on a Ship i could not imagine a single situation in PVP where Tank/DPS will be better in survival or to geting kills. Rolling Eyes

muffminer
Posted - 2007.12.28 18:52:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: muffminer on 28/12/2007 19:01:11
here are some details about "nano" builds.

Vaga's are usually set up with a shield HP tank..2 extenders a disrupter and a MWD.

Now you can line the bottom up w/ OD's and maybe a nanofiber for warptime and polycarb it out..however the people w/ impressive dps are generally running 2 gyrostabs and fit the rest for speed..I'd choose OD injectors as polycarbs help the agility.

With only rogue imps i'll be doing 6.2km a sec (only because i took a month to train navi skills)

Now guys...do some research..look at the tracking speed of medium autocannons...and then look at t2 ammo for autocannons. (projectiles). barrage is the commonly used ammo and take a look at it's pretty big reduction in tracking speeds.

The only way a vaga's going to hit you at high speeds is by flying at you in straight lines and that can definately be hard to do when anytime you stop and turn you're most likely going to get hit by whatever group of people is shooting at you..nothing to rep with

i've been playing the game for a year on my main...and the fastest vaga i've personally seen went about 8km/sec. stating again that with a dps/speed mixture setup..without imps you're only going 5.8km a sec or so .and now with interceptor BOOST (80% reduction in cap need for propulsion jamming mods) any UNRIGGED ceptor should be capable of out flying and highly out maneuvering a cruiser sized vessel.

Here in lies the part about me saying people should be patient..train skills...and earn some frikking isk.

a polycarbed ceptor will probably go at least what 8-10km? i could be wrong...now a snaked out ceptor pilot could go what 15-20?

I read a statement about rapier's being ineffective...they've got how many midslots? they can web farther than they can disrupt..drop the points..duel web and let a ceptor or gallente recon hold them down. ..and if you're constantly being bothered by people with 1bil or more in implants..my suggestion to you really...either step up..set up a clone to counter them with.or find space they don't hunt in..these guys worked many hours and trained MANY skills for their speed and ability to use these implants.

You guys should try it.
Controlling ANY ship doing 8km+ with precision is quite a task.

- here's another point of view....if the non speedy opponent put the rigging, and the same amount of skills into their shield or armor tank...and then bought the expensive set of implants to back that tank up...there's no way in hell 1 vaga pilot is going to take you down..if he has time to do so it's because you're alone in a place and got comfortable when you shuold've been paranoid and working with people..its called learn to pay attention to local and intel channels you noobs. get to know interceptor and dictor pilots...and make sure they know how to fly them. If you are of equal skills and isk and specialized towards your tech 2 cruiser or even some tier 2 BC's and definately some BS's...you may not be able to kill the vaga..but then again the vaga most likely can't kill you either. You knew the risk you took when you went into lowsec or 0.0..or even undocked at war.....soloing isn't a viable option..it takes friends..get help <3 tackle pilots.

What i pick up from the people complaining about the minmatar's aspect of the game (actually giving velocity bonuses to ships and being designed around speed) is

"I want my single cruiser sized vessel worth 250mil or more or my tech 1 battlecruiser worth 80-120mil with a silly clone worth 100-150mil with my 6 months to a year of specialized training or my 2-3 years of training just the bare necessities for my t1 ships and carebear mobiles to be able to completely wtfpwn this 2003-2004 player with training dedicated to his playing style and ship of preference and has enough money to risk billions ina fight. "

Jack Target
Astral Adventure
Posted - 2007.12.28 19:28:00 - [40]
 

Thank you all very much for your replies.

I agree with everyone here, but I have faith in CCP.

Removal Tool
Unleet Industries LLC
Posted - 2007.12.28 19:34:00 - [41]
 

While I did read the comments before commenting here, I didn't see anyone mention this: Need For Speed? Wasn't the Need for Speed an official dev/CCP thing? And now speed is going to be nerfed?

If CCP is nerfing something to offset a previous buff, isn't that admitting that the previous buff was a mistake?

I realize that the game changes and evolves, which is a sound concept, but to buff then nerf/nerf then buff the same attribute, sounds negligent. Rolling Eyes

Sharupak
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.12.28 19:41:00 - [42]
 

*popcorn smiley here*

Here we go again! WEEEEEEEELaughing

Zak Bryn
Caldari
Omicron Resource Technologies Limited
Posted - 2007.12.28 20:01:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Removal Tool
While I did read the comments before commenting here, I didn't see anyone mention this: Need For Speed? Wasn't the Need for Speed an official dev/CCP thing? And now speed is going to be nerfed?


Need for speed was/is for the game and servers, NOT the ships

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.12.28 20:14:00 - [44]
 

Quote:
Dumping down the "advertage playstyle of Nano" mayby will give other playsyles a comback. ATM if I fit Nano on a Ship i could not imagine a single situation in PVP where Tank/DPS will be better in survival or to geting kills.
That seems to imply that a clear majority of players are using nanoship playstyle. That is clearly not the case.

At least 60% of all the people I encounter in 0.0 are not using nanoship playstyle. Many of them setup for gank and tank + MWD. But they barely reach 2000 m/s. I wouldn't consider anything under 2000 m/s as nanoship.

Of the remaining 40%, roughly 20% use specialized nanoship tactics. These are mostly inty and vaga pilots, dictors, a few bs. They are powerful in the right hands, people who know how to use them can also afford to pimp them out.

20% is a lot of people, it's very easy to notice their presense because of their power. But they are not the majority. By no stretch of imagination do nanoships dominate alternative playstyles. The main playstyle in EVE is tank and gank. Nerfing speed setups will mostly encourage more tank and gank setups. Nerfing speed will not increase diversity of playstyles, it'll only make current majority bigger.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2007.12.28 20:19:00 - [45]
 

How about making the mwd speed increase independent of the mass of the ships and only dependent on the warp speed of the ship. This would remove polycarbs and nanofibres from the equation. Interceptors with a high base warp speed and rigs/implants for a warp speed bonus will still remain the top and everyone else will have to readjust their tactics/ship setups.

Just a rough half-assed idea here but it would bring the mechanic of mwds more in line with how the actual warpdrive works.

Skjorta
Posted - 2007.12.28 20:33:00 - [46]
 

If people would use actual tq server setups, not EFT online setups with the isk cost of a few carriers.

Speed wouldn't be so shocking.

Phase 1: Web.
Phase 2: Look at the slow moving target that has no tank other than speed.
Phase 3: ?
Phase 4: Profit!

I wonder what 3 could be.

Removal Tool
Unleet Industries LLC
Posted - 2007.12.28 20:51:00 - [47]
 

"Need for speed was/is for the game and servers, NOT the ships"

Ah....thanks

I prefer my own embarassment Embarassed here to the alternative, which would have that CCP was completely insane.Laughing

Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2007.12.28 22:18:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Gorefacer on 28/12/2007 22:25:24
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
Doubt it, or if so not a serious one.

People just whine about whatever everyone else is complaining about; before there was the 'problem' of people going AFK in their systems while cloaked so they were too scared to rat. Huge threads, now almost non-existent despite no changes made.

I wouldn't worry about it, they'll find something new soon.


You missed it.

AFK cloakers had nothing to do with fear. It was a tactic that reduced efficiency of enemy PVErs able to be accomplished while AFK. I won't say anymore since you missed the point of those discussions despite obviously reading them.

Also there is only so much you can argue about, before it has all been said. No matter which way you feel on any issue, the fact that you are debating it on the forums usually indicates that you enjoy the game enough to play it either way.

Just because you don't see discussions on certain topics RIGHT NOW does not mean there aren't still differing opinions on it.

Your whole post reeks of the "whiners are ruining EVE" "EVE player base is broken" mentality and ironically enough, source of a new spate of complaint topics.

On Topic: It sounds like something will be changed related to speed. Hopefully the change encourages more engagements and doesn't just **** a bunch of people off.

Edit: Speed is considered a tanking style. As such I would like to see it stay effective at mitigating damage but not able to completely negate it. Like resistance or buffer tanks, make it so that the more spent on the speed tank, the more damage it is able to mitigate.

Not sure what changes would be necessary to achieve this result though.


MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2007.12.29 06:45:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Removal Tool
"Need for speed was/is for the game and servers, NOT the ships"

Ah....thanks

I prefer my own embarassment Embarassed here to the alternative, which would have that CCP was completely insane.Laughing


oh no...

it's the next boot.ini!

They will go to nerf speed forget a space and accidentally put a stacking penalty on the cluster!

umop 3pisdn
Minmatar
Fnck the blob.
Posted - 2007.12.29 07:58:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: muffminer
Edited by: muffminer on 28/12/2007 19:01:11
here are some details about "nano" builds.

Vaga's are usually set up with a shield HP tank..2 extenders a disrupter and a MWD.

Now you can line the bottom up w/ OD's and maybe a nanofiber for warptime and polycarb it out..however the people w/ impressive dps are generally running 2 gyrostabs and fit the rest for speed..I'd choose OD injectors as polycarbs help the agility.

With only rogue imps i'll be doing 6.2km a sec (only because i took a month to train navi skills)

Now guys...do some research..look at the tracking speed of medium autocannons...and then look at t2 ammo for autocannons. (projectiles). barrage is the commonly used ammo and take a look at it's pretty big reduction in tracking speeds.

The only way a vaga's going to hit you at high speeds is by flying at you in straight lines and that can definately be hard to do when anytime you stop and turn you're most likely going to get hit by whatever group of people is shooting at you..nothing to rep with

i've been playing the game for a year on my main...and the fastest vaga i've personally seen went about 8km/sec. stating again that with a dps/speed mixture setup..without imps you're only going 5.8km a sec or so .and now with interceptor BOOST (80% reduction in cap need for propulsion jamming mods) any UNRIGGED ceptor should be capable of out flying and highly out maneuvering a cruiser sized vessel.

Here in lies the part about me saying people should be patient..train skills...and earn some frikking isk.

a polycarbed ceptor will probably go at least what 8-10km? i could be wrong...now a snaked out ceptor pilot could go what 15-20?

I read a statement about rapier's being ineffective...they've got how many midslots? they can web farther than they can disrupt..drop the points..duel web and let a ceptor or gallente recon hold them down. ..and if you're constantly being bothered by people with 1bil or more in implants..my suggestion to you really...either step up..set up a clone to counter them with.or find space they don't hunt in..these guys worked many hours and trained MANY skills for their speed and ability to use these implants.

You guys should try it.
Controlling ANY ship doing 8km+ with precision is quite a task.

- here's another point of view....if the non speedy opponent put the rigging, and the same amount of skills into their shield or armor tank...and then bought the expensive set of implants to back that tank up...there's no way in hell 1 vaga pilot is going to take you down..if he has time to do so it's because you're alone in a place and got comfortable when you shuold've been paranoid and working with people..its called learn to pay attention to local and intel channels you noobs. get to know interceptor and dictor pilots...and make sure they know how to fly them. If you are of equal skills and isk and specialized towards your tech 2 cruiser or even some tier 2 BC's and definately some BS's...you may not be able to kill the vaga..but then again the vaga most likely can't kill you either. You knew the risk you took when you went into lowsec or 0.0..or even undocked at war.....soloing isn't a viable option..it takes friends..get help <3 tackle pilots.

What i pick up from the people complaining about the minmatar's aspect of the game (actually giving velocity bonuses to ships and being designed around speed) is

"I want my single cruiser sized vessel worth 250mil or more or my tech 1 battlecruiser worth 80-120mil with a silly clone worth 100-150mil with my 6 months to a year of specialized training or my 2-3 years of training just the bare necessities for my t1 ships and carebear mobiles to be able to completely wtfpwn this 2003-2004 player with training dedicated to his playing style and ship of preference and has enough money to risk billions ina fight. "


ATTENTION "BOOST:(NERF) PATCH DEVS; PLEASE READ THIS POST
Skill>skillpoints in nano hacs

umop 3pisdn
Minmatar
Fnck the blob.
Posted - 2007.12.29 08:00:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: General Petraeus
Originally by: Jack Target
Is there really going to be a speed nerf or is this just a rumour? Can someone provide a link to the dev blog that says this nerf might happen?

I like fast ships, so I'm hoping there will not be a nerf.


I hope so ships are now faster than they have ever been.


Joke post or havent been playing for long?

Semkhet
Dark Tornado
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2007.12.29 08:18:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: General Petraeus

I hope so ships are now faster than they have ever been.


Have you been in coma since 2003 ? That's the kind of utterly incompetent statement that deserve enemas with tabasco.

Semkhet
Dark Tornado
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2007.12.29 08:28:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
20% is a lot of people, it's very easy to notice their presense because of their power. But they are not the majority. By no stretch of imagination do nanoships dominate alternative playstyles. The main playstyle in EVE is tank and gank. Nerfing speed setups will mostly encourage more tank and gank setups. Nerfing speed will not increase diversity of playstyles, it'll only make current majority bigger.


Besides, even if this figure of 20% of 0.0 PvP'ers is correct, it's a very small percentage of the playerbase since 0.0 demographics are appalling.

Grunanca
Final Agony
B A N E
Posted - 2007.12.29 10:33:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: muffminer
Edited by: muffminer on 28/12/2007 19:01:11
Intelligent stuff


Couldnt have said it better myself. I think lot of people have the picture of the mighty vaga of doom that comes in and wtfpwn everyone. Fact is that to do any damage the vaga needs to get below 1km/s. Even there the vaga does crap damage because it has to stay far out in the falloff range. At this point its damn vulnerable and can still not kil anyone with same skills in even a BC. my corp has been solo killing 3 vagas in hurricanes the last week. Thyey get webbed, they die, simple as that.

Only use for a vaga is heavy tackler and prober with a little teeth.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2007.12.29 10:37:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: General Petraeus

I hope so ships are now faster than they have ever been.


Have you been in coma since 2003 ? That's the kind of utterly incompetent statement that deserve enemas with tabasco.


Maybe he still has a multiple-MWD Raven or something. Dev Hax.

Neon Genesis
GoonFleet
Posted - 2007.12.29 10:52:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Neon Genesis on 29/12/2007 10:52:38

There are so many people that just want to pvp like two old gallions firing cannons at each other with no movement at all.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2007.12.29 10:54:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Neon Genesis
Edited by: Neon Genesis on 29/12/2007 10:52:38

There are so many people that just want to pvp like two old gallions firing cannons at each other with no movement at all.


yes that's why we want ships to go slower than 14,000m/s...
and want it to be 10,000
or for it have a risk invovled
please shut up.

no one is asking for no speed.



Neon Genesis
GoonFleet
Posted - 2007.12.29 11:08:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Neon Genesis
Edited by: Neon Genesis on 29/12/2007 10:52:38

There are so many people that just want to pvp like two old gallions firing cannons at each other with no movement at all.


yes that's why we want ships to go slower than 14,000m/s...
and want it to be 10,000
or for it have a risk invovled
please shut up.

no one is asking for no speed.





If you can't catch a ship that doesn't want to be caught going at 14k, how will you catch it at 10k?

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2007.12.29 11:13:00 - [59]
 

You seem like a nice BRUCE chap, however I've got to depress you by telling you the Live Dev blog with Zulupark stated that speed was considered a problem and most likely some stronger stacking penalties are incomming.

You can debate the why and wherefore until you're blue in the face, but the fact is that nano setups allow non-commital PVP, the same as Warp Core Stabs. More and more people are flying these ships because they represent the lowest risk vs how effective they are.

Certain ships built for speed like Interceptors and Vagabonds are pretty well balanced IMHO, but when Ishtars, Zealots, Huginns, Rapiers, Lachesis, Arazu, Machariel, Curse, Typhoon (and the rest of the most commonly nanoed ships) are now zooming around at speeds that most webbers can't catch and where even interceptors can't lock these ships after they jump and align to warp before they are gone, then that is the imbalance IMHO.

Personally I think a blanket stacking nerf of speed mods is worse for some ships than others and it is more likely do more harm to the game than good.

The issue really needs each ship to be looked at individually and perhaps have different stacking penalties for each ship, though something tells me CCP won't be this thorough.

Either way Jack, I think you're hoping in vain.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2007.12.29 11:20:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Neon Genesis
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Neon Genesis
Edited by: Neon Genesis on 29/12/2007 10:52:38

There are so many people that just want to pvp like two old gallions firing cannons at each other with no movement at all.


yes that's why we want ships to go slower than 14,000m/s...
and want it to be 10,000
or for it have a risk invovled
please shut up.

no one is asking for no speed.





If you can't catch a ship that doesn't want to be caught going at 14k, how will you catch it at 10k?


I won't be able too but my not-billion isk intersceptor could catch it.

right now speed gets crazy!

Also my idea is that ships could just acellerate slower the faster they go andf get extra mass. less turning.


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