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blankseplocked RE: E-Uni War with Racketeer, Dismissal of Member for Undocking
 
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Kumiko Kobayashi
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2007.12.27 12:26:00 - [61]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. - Navigator (mods@ccpgames.com)

ApaKaka
Minmatar
Lone Starr Corporation
Posted - 2007.12.27 12:31:00 - [62]
 

I think it's painfully clear that Eve-U is just another of the dime-a-dozen corporations that work from the unwritten rule of:

"We are a corp with a lot of contradictory rules and rites members have to know/perform, but essentially this means our members can only have fun and play the game they pay for when WE [ie. the directors] decide they can"

Unfortunately, this is how most corporations end up when they grow beyond a certain size.


Tharim
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.12.27 12:43:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: ApaKaka
I think it's painfully clear that Eve-U is just another of the dime-a-dozen corporations that work from the unwritten rule of:

"We are a corp with a lot of contradictory rules and rites members have to know/perform, but essentially this means our members can only have fun and play the game they pay for when WE [ie. the directors] decide they can"

Unfortunately, this is how most corporations end up when they grow beyond a certain size.




Heh yah. They are cute tough.


Seiver D'amross
Gallente
Subach-Tech
Posted - 2007.12.27 12:48:00 - [64]
 

*ish waiting for Kumiko Kobayashi to log on*

Don ZOLA
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.12.27 12:54:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Mitch Taylor
Originally by: Kumiko Kobayashi

Kelduum Revaan > ok, then you *have* to follow orders
Kumiko Kobayashi > i only follows those orders pertaining to fleet



If you were having this conversation with me, it would have ended here.

I think your career path is a solo one. Good luck

Mitch


signed.

You went against leadership order.
You were given chance to remain there if you are willing to listen orders in future.
You dont want to listen other orders then those specified - wont work.

No one force you to be in eve uni or any other corp, no one force you to do it their way. but if you wanna be part of some corp you have to listen their leadership. end of discussion.

if my director/fc/ceo gives me order to selfdestruct ship ill do it no matter ill be liek WTF?. if that order keeps coming often ill prolly be unhappy and search for some other corp but while im in corp ill listen them.

eve uni guys are doing all that stuff for free. they dont need smartasses around to make their task harder. so either their way or highway.

and that will be in every corp you go in, mess with leadership - bye bye.

Kodell
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2007.12.27 12:56:00 - [66]
 

I normally don’t get into things like this, and I would rather be mining veld in high sec the posting on CAOD, but I think some light needs to be shed on this discussion.

For about 2 years I was the Co-CEO/Chief Director of EvE Uni/Ivy League, in my time there I implemented many policies, most of witch are still in effect now and for good reasons.
I’ll try and explain some of those reasons here in brief.
When someone joins the Uni, they are bound by only a few simple rules, witch is:
No pirating.
No Griefing/Scaming.
No Smack talking (In OR out of corp).
And ad hearing to the orders of IVY Navy officers (FC’s), when in Corp/alliance opps.

Other then that, members are free to do what they want, when they want. Of course the uni is built around group activities and encourage them.

When the Uni is at war, members are given the choice of either staying or dropping out into a sister corp for the duration of the war, with no hard feelings if they so wish.
Once the war starts, any orders issued by a director or Navy Flag officer must be followed thru with; there is no room for arguments. This is usually started numerous times before the wars starts, to give any members that don’t feel this suites there style of game play, the chance to dropout for the war. Disobeying orders during war time sets a very bad example to the membership, and has in the past led to “Well if HE can do that, why cant I?” and other problems along the same lines, hence why it is now has such a harsh punishment.

Eve Uni discourages members from doing solo pvp, this does not in any way mean the uni “forbids” it totally, when members reach a certain level of experience the corp allows then to do as much solo roaming as they wish. Due to the avg experience that uni members have, gangs are the favored route. That is for the safty of members and Corp.
If the uni allowed all 1000 members to go off and solo fight in every war it had, the losses the uni would suffer would then make it “THE” prime target for every Griefing/pirating corp out there, wanting easy ganks and good KB stats.
This would in effect permanently hinder the range of teaching services the uni would then be able to provide.

About the “Lock-down”, they are issued very rarely for limited periods of time, and they only ever apply to the Uni HQ area and surrounding systems. The main reason for them is if a hostile force is inbound to, or in HQ and there is not enough members online to form a gang with a reasonable chance of repelling said hostile force. This is to stop the “lemming” syndrome that used to happen, where ppl would undock 1 at a time to be insta ganked.

And I guess, this ends my wall of txt ;)

ApaKaka
Minmatar
Lone Starr Corporation
Posted - 2007.12.27 13:00:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Don ZOLA

if my director/fc/ceo gives me order to selfdestruct ship ill do it no matter ill be liek WTF?. if that order keeps coming often ill prolly be unhappy and search for some other corp but while im in corp ill listen them.


I disagree. And I'm sad that you pay your subscription fee to get ordered around by narcissistic people with a need to control people.



Shuckstar
Gallente
Hauling hogs
Swine Aviation Labs
Posted - 2007.12.27 13:10:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Wrayeth
Edited by: Wrayeth on 27/12/2007 08:50:23
Well, that's stupid. Telling people they can't play a game they pay a subscription fee for (i.e. can't undock) is ludicrous. If that's EVE-Uni's only response to being wardecced, then the respect I had for them for training up new players just disappeared. They're teaching them how to cower, not how to stand up and defend themselves.

Yes, there are times when discretion is the better part of valor, but it's not on a continual basis; I will dock if there's a 20-man enemy fleet and I'm the only friendly in local, but if someone ordered me to stay in dock day in and day out, I'd tell them to go **** themselves.


QFT

Don ZOLA
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.12.27 13:21:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: ApaKaka
Originally by: Don ZOLA

if my director/fc/ceo gives me order to selfdestruct ship ill do it no matter ill be liek WTF?. if that order keeps coming often ill prolly be unhappy and search for some other corp but while im in corp ill listen them.


I disagree. And I'm sad that you pay your subscription fee to get ordered around by narcissistic people with a need to control people.





i pay subscription to play the way i want. If i want to roleplay merciless soldier in mercenary corp that means that i obey orders i am given. and if you think that i would stay long with people who give such orders often then you are out of your mind. But i wouldnt have any problem doing it if such order comes now and then. Maybe my ceo is just showing our customers how big psychos we are and that they cant find more ebil mercs then us :)

Maybe i gave too hardcore example for you, but it doesnt matter in my point. It even proves it more, if you are given normal order by leadership (to stay docked in lockdown situation for example) and you dont want to obey it, there is only one way...out :)

ApaKaka
Minmatar
Lone Starr Corporation
Posted - 2007.12.27 13:28:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Don ZOLA

Maybe i gave too hardcore example for you, but it doesnt matter in my point. It even proves it more, if you are given normal order by leadership (to stay docked in lockdown situation for example) and you dont want to obey it, there is only one way...out :)


Fine. And I even agree with you to a certain degree. If the suit doesn't fit, don't wear it etc.

But what I disagreed with was your generalization that all corporations should follow this rule, because it just makes no sense that CEO/Directors of a corp should expect absolute obedience from people who pay to play an internet spaceship game to have fun.

If they do, they'll quickly find noone will want to pew pew internet spaceships with them anymore - because they simply want more value for their moneys than taking flak from some idiot who likes imaginary power.





Silentbrick
Caldari
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2007.12.27 13:29:00 - [71]
 

We honestly don't have that many rules in Eve University, but everyone that comes in the door agrees to follow them as part of joining. We have a fairly successful war record against people and we lose far more ships running around doing just what the OP did than we ever do on actual fleet operations. That's one reason why we have our war time rules. We do not fight wars in EVE for personal glory, 'kills' or any other sort of 'honor'. Eve Uni fights wars to destroy our enemies, damage their morale and make them go away. In order to achieve this, we openly stipulate that members must follow the rules.

1. The OP disobeyed orders
2. The OP then openly refused to obey the standing orders in the future.
3. The OP was removed from the corp, as per standing policy

While you can attack Kel for being the diplomatic director and carrying this out, all he was doing was enforcing the rules that ANY and EVERY Eve Uni Director is supposed to. Had I been online at the time, I would have done it myself. As many of us are on holiday with our families, the available Directors must carry the burdens.

I'm sorry that the OP felt he cannot abide by the simple rules he agreed to when he joined the Uni. I hope he continues to play EVE and enjoy the game. I hope he finds a willing corp with no rules and no one can ever tell him what to do, so he'll never be in the position of having to actually agree to follow orders and then be again faced with a choice of honoring his given word or doing whatever the hell he wants.

I gave my word however, upon becoming a Director in Eve University, to act in it's best interest and carry out my duties the best I can. That means enforcing the rules that are in place and handling problems such as this when they arise. And while Kumiko can hate us and complain all he wants, it doesn't change the fact that he broke his word and paid the price for it.

Don ZOLA
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.12.27 13:34:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: ApaKaka
Originally by: Don ZOLA

Maybe i gave too hardcore example for you, but it doesnt matter in my point. It even proves it more, if you are given normal order by leadership (to stay docked in lockdown situation for example) and you dont want to obey it, there is only one way...out :)


Fine. And I even agree with you to a certain degree. If the suit doesn't fit, don't wear it etc.

But what I disagreed with was your generalization that all corporations should follow this rule, because it just makes no sense that CEO/Directors of a corp should expect absolute obedience from people who pay to play an internet spaceship game to have fun.

If they do, they'll quickly find noone will want to pew pew internet spaceships with them anymore - because they simply want more value for their moneys than taking flak from some idiot who likes imaginary power.







im talking from my pov - being soldier in finest pvp corps out there. if you want to be good and want corp to be good everything has to work perfect, everyone should know his job and - listen orders :). i agree that in other kind of corps maybe you dont need that high discipline, but in certain case of eve uni - where people spend they free time and subscriptions to help new people learn something - FOR FREE, then id expect those who want to learn to respect that leadership and not be a smartass and **** off people who want to help them.

ApaKaka
Minmatar
Lone Starr Corporation
Posted - 2007.12.27 13:43:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Don ZOLA

i agree that in other kind of corps maybe you dont need that high discipline, but in certain case of eve uni - where people spend they free time and subscriptions to help new people learn something - FOR FREE, then id expect those who want to learn to respect that leadership and not be a smartass and **** off people who want to help them.


I agree with this if applied to fleet-ops. Absolute listening and no smartass crap is then required. This was no fleet-op though.

Also, the newbies spend their free time and subscriptions as well, and E-Uni broke its promise of fun learning and PVP experience to Kumiko by staying docked in lockdown for several days.

The statement of all previous directors and directors from E-Uni seems to be that lockdown happens very seldom and only for short times when gathering fleets together.

How come Kumiko couldn't undock and play for several days? I don't blame him for undocking and attempting to learn on his own.

However, in his place, I would just have left the corp because they broke their promise to me. I guess he was hoping that they still would deliver on that promise.




Kelduum Revaan
Caldari
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2007.12.27 13:55:00 - [74]
 

Wow, three pages already. This is dramarific!

Is it my turn now? Ok, here goes...

Originally by: Kumiko
My other character is Arifel from Royal Crimson Lancers.

Then, this begs the question, Arifel: why were you in Eve University?

I may be wrong about this, but it doesn't seem to be to teach... From here, your main seems to be the personnel manager of a small pirate corp, and at least 4 months old. Not really someone who would fit the entrance requirements for a student (under 2 months active time), as most pick up the basics and will find someone to help in that time. I'll have a word with the RO who accepted you, but i get the feeling your pirate main wasnt mentioned when joining.


Originally by: Eskona
You cannot teach somebody if he refuses to listen to what you say.


This is unfortunately very true. We have well over 1000 members, with a sizable turnover of graduates, and from time to time, the recruitment process doesn't pick up those who just aren't suited to the university and it becomes neccecary to remove troublemakers. Its usually one every 3-4 months, but typically they don't post chat logs to CAOD, and understand why they are asked to leave if they wont follow the policies.


Originally by: Ozstar
Not everyone has access to JC's


As was mentioned, The University supplies have free jumpclones (both the skillbook and the access, but not the individual clones), and we actively encourage the students to get the clones as soon as possible, as well as suggesting they use the 24 hour warm up period to get themselves a clone whenever war is declared. We even suggest that the students leave an empty clone in or around our HQ, so they can safely get involved in wars.


Originally by: ApaKaka

I think it's painfully clear that Eve-U is just another of the dime-a-dozen corporations that work from the unwritten rule of:
"We are a corp with a lot of contradictory rules..."


Well, if we are, please, let me know which ones they are and we can fix them. Our policies are available publicly here, and I was relatively certain they are quite clear.


Regarding the lockdown, as was stated quite well by Kodell, it was temporary and simply to prevent the 'lemming effect'. The students are somewhat bloodthirsty, and will quite happily undock and shoot at war targets, but they have a tendency to try and do so one by one.

While this looks pretty and provides a nice light show for hostiles camping our HQ, it gets rather tiresome when they could be learning a bit better by coordinating and taking the hostiles on, rather than seeing how many wrecks they can leave in the front of the station in an hour. If 'Kumiko' had paid attention to either corp or alliance chat, he would have seen a fleet forming up at the time.


What it comes down to is that the students are in Eve University to learn - over 1000 of them - and I like to think that the vast majority don't have any problems with the way the University works - more than a few stay on and become teachers, or work for free as recruiters and other roles. I don't think you would see that if it wasn't the case.

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:00:00 - [75]
 

I'm not sure I follow the EveU reasoning on this...

The OP says he'll follows any orders given on ops or in a fleet. The EveU says that members must follow orders on ops and in fleets. The OP didn't feel like he was in either an op nor a fleet, and thus decided to play the game. He declares his intentions and gets booted.

Kumiko, are you a new player with little experience? If so, apply to TRAPS and get in on the action there. Not many rules, and losing a ship doesn't get you podded by your own.

DrakeStone
Caldari
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Celestial Industrial Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:03:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: DrakeStone on 27/12/2007 14:04:11

I scanned the conversation - then the entire thread and quickly and definitively concluded a few things:

1. Un-dock orders absolutely have their place.
2. You MUST follow orders to be successful, as is the basic premise of any military entity.
3. The diplomat looks like he talked to you for a freaking hour - more than he needed or should have needed to.

4. AS TO THE PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD JUMPING ON EVE-UNI: You should know better and should be a e-ashamed (tm). Eve University is one of the most philanthropic endeavours in Eve and it should be defended by those of us who understand what it provides to new folks and how important a cohesive unit requires the following of a unified order.


Don ZOLA
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:12:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: ApaKaka
Originally by: Don ZOLA

i agree that in other kind of corps maybe you dont need that high discipline, but in certain case of eve uni - where people spend they free time and subscriptions to help new people learn something - FOR FREE, then id expect those who want to learn to respect that leadership and not be a smartass and **** off people who want to help them.


I agree with this if applied to fleet-ops. Absolute listening and no smartass crap is then required. This was no fleet-op though.

Also, the newbies spend their free time and subscriptions as well, and E-Uni broke its promise of fun learning and PVP experience to Kumiko by staying docked in lockdown for several days.

The statement of all previous directors and directors from E-Uni seems to be that lockdown happens very seldom and only for short times when gathering fleets together.

How come Kumiko couldn't undock and play for several days? I don't blame him for undocking and attempting to learn on his own.

However, in his place, I would just have left the corp because they broke their promise to me. I guess he was hoping that they still would deliver on that promise.



Imho lockdown is a fleet op. Purpose of that op is to minimise loses untill counter attack force is ready. and i really doubt it can last for days, it prolly happens often for a time till fleet is assembled. Maybe kumiko is one of inpatient ones, he logs in - see there is lockdown - doesnt wanna wait for fleet to assemble so he logs off and goes playing something else, and that happen couple of days in row ? :)

And i dont think eve uni promised anyone anything. they dont have to, they are doing their services for free and everyone who is taking part in that should be thankfull, or should go other way...

btw also very lame war by racketeers (sp?), you dont make your name in merc business by declaring on starters corp...grow a pair, try us for example ? :)

Mixaren Kohnar
Caldari
XII Legion
Southern Connection
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:15:00 - [78]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. - Navigator (mods@ccpgames.com)

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:19:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Ki An on 27/12/2007 14:20:11
Originally by: Don ZOLA

Imho lockdown is a fleet op. Purpose of that op is to minimise loses untill counter attack force is ready. and i really doubt it can last for days, it prolly happens often for a time till fleet is assembled. Maybe kumiko is one of inpatient ones, he logs in - see there is lockdown - doesnt wanna wait for fleet to assemble so he logs off and goes playing something else, and that happen couple of days in row ? :)

And i dont think eve uni promised anyone anything. they dont have to, they are doing their services for free and everyone who is taking part in that should be thankfull, or should go other way...

btw also very lame war by racketeers (sp?), you dont make your name in merc business by declaring on starters corp...grow a pair, try us for example ? :)


Imho, a 'lockdown' is a pretty damned stupid order to give. It's every corp's and alliance's right to have stupid rules of course, and I would definately recognize EveU's right to dismiss any player they want to. It doesn't take away from the fact that EveU's actions in this particular case diminishes the respect a lot of people hold for them. Unlike you, if a director told me to self-destruct, and could not give me a reason that was good enough, I would told him to get stuffed, and start looking for a new corp. It's my money that pay for my account, and it's my spare time that goes into playing this game.

This mentality would usually not be a problem. That is, until the corp starts issuing stupid orders.

Adrianna Jones
Gallente
Universal System Acquisitions
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:23:00 - [80]
 

Alright look since you both obvously missed the boat,

Dear Internet Heroes, Space Warriors, and Battleship Pirates.

"You pay 15$ a month to play this game" etc... yes true.

What you do in the game is completely up to you, if you like being controlled, told what to do, told not to smack, etc... then well you know where to go. If you don't then well find somewhere else to dock its just as simple as that.

Now, the argument is 'Double standard for recruitment and dismissal causes much heart ache to those who join but then find themselves caught between the two." aka "The Issue".

The double standard:

"While I understand that different corporations will enforce different rules and that joining or staying in one requires mutual agreement between the member and the corp. However, I find it baffling when the terms of termination imposing a much more restrict standard than the terms of recruitment, resulting a lot of wasted time and energy on those caught between the two standards."

Now look at Poeas' post:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=669809&page=2#41

Did they ask the OP to agree to their rules? Yes. Was the OP aware of this rule, yes, did the OP violate the rule, yes. (i like this word violate). Is there a double standard? NO.

Hey OP, you said it yourself "To this understanding, I was accepted into E-Uni. But as you can see from the chat log below the standard for dismissal is best summarized as “dismissal for any disobedience.” There is no qualification as to the authority imposed on Uni’s members by its directors. The distinction between the standards for recruitment and dismissal set forth by the two different directors is vast.", well grats you signed a contract that says, "THIS CONTRACT CAN BE TERMNINATED IF WE DONE LIKE YOU!"
Your fault.

2nd part of the argument "dismissal causes much heart ache to those who join but then find themselves caught between the two".

No doubt that the amount of BAWWWWWWWWW caused by this is tremendous, but thats the risk you take. /pat

(my spelling sucks and grammar too so sorry in advance!)



Norwood Franskly
Minmatar
Fleet of the Damned
Eternal Ascension
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:34:00 - [81]
 

TBH I think Eve uni was fully justified in getting rid of you, you don't want to follow orders you shouldn't be in the corp its simple, the fact your on the forums *****ing about it seems to me like they made the right choice.

They called a lockdown for a reason, its not your job to second guess them and think you know better then they do it's your job to follow orders. If you want to lead start your own corp if you join someone elses you play by their rules.

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:37:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Norwood Franskly
TBH I think Eve uni was fully justified in getting rid of you, you don't want to follow orders you shouldn't be in the corp its simple, the fact your on the forums *****ing about it seems to me like they made the right choice.

They called a lockdown for a reason, its not your job to second guess them and think you know better then they do it's your job to follow orders. If you want to lead start your own corp if you join someone elses you play by their rules.


Bolded the important parts as pertaining to this game.

ApaKaka
Minmatar
Lone Starr Corporation
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:39:00 - [83]
 

I love irony Laughing

H3XXX
Gallente
The Knights Templar
Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:46:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: S3XXX on 27/12/2007 14:49:53
After reading this thread thoroughly, I felt like I should say something, having joined EvE-Uni recently and having atleast a less biased if not fully non-biased opinion.

When I first read the post I felt that the dismissal was unjust.
But if you follow the thread, you'll see that Kumiko refused to obey orders and still says that he will not obey orders unless he is in a fleet. All he was given was a warning saying that he should not undock without some intel and permission. But then he said he would not follow orders in the future either(unless in a fleet).
I believe if he would have said that he would listen to orders in the future, he would have been allowed to stay.

Some people here are saying why shouldn't he play the game, Why should he listen to the leaders and stay docked. Well, tell me what happens in ANY teamgame. Do you not follow the coach and the captain's advice. And as we are in a war situation, I want you to consider the military.. What happens if you refuse to obey orders??

As for the lockdown...


I have been in the Uni for 19 days now and I can say I've been fairly active in the war too(doing my part) even though I am a very young character.

So I can tell you, that the lockdown excuse to not follow the orders is totally invalid. First thing, lockdowns merely last for a few hours at max(most of the time) when the War Targets are in HQ System and active, which they cant be for days continuously as some people seem to have suggested.

I have been out and about plenty of times when IN A LOCKDOWN. How? I was in a gang. The Uni promotes team warfare and so gangs are allowed to roam free even in lockdowns.
Even when in lockdown, the following situation has occured ---
I was docked and I wanted to go out and kick some a** :P Most fleets or gangs form at the POS so I asked in corp if HQ station was clear and it was so I was allowed to UNDOCK and warp to the POS where we formed a small gang and went hunting. :)

This should give you a better view of what actually goes on.
Had Kumiko done the same(as the above situation), everything would have gone smoothly.

And the people who seem to be flaming Uni for this tell me this --
Is it better to face a fleet solo or in a gang?
And that is why the Lockdown rule is there.

The other point is nobody forced Kumiko to be in Eve Uni, to be part of a team which Eve Uni is.

Rico Naginata
Caldari
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:48:00 - [85]
 

For a "Diplomat" that guy is hardly the quickest of cats is he.

I lol'd at "No they explicitly stated they wanted faction kills!!!11" Hilarious.

Kasumi Todoh
Caldari
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:49:00 - [86]
 

i dont know anything about member. but it seams to me judging from this thread that the member was kicked for being a colossal drama queen and not for undocking.

Don ZOLA
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:50:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Ki An
Edited by: Ki An on 27/12/2007 14:20:11
Originally by: Don ZOLA

Imho lockdown is a fleet op. Purpose of that op is to minimise loses untill counter attack force is ready. and i really doubt it can last for days, it prolly happens often for a time till fleet is assembled. Maybe kumiko is one of inpatient ones, he logs in - see there is lockdown - doesnt wanna wait for fleet to assemble so he logs off and goes playing something else, and that happen couple of days in row ? :)

And i dont think eve uni promised anyone anything. they dont have to, they are doing their services for free and everyone who is taking part in that should be thankfull, or should go other way...

btw also very lame war by racketeers (sp?), you dont make your name in merc business by declaring on starters corp...grow a pair, try us for example ? :)


Imho, a 'lockdown' is a pretty damned stupid order to give. It's every corp's and alliance's right to have stupid rules of course, and I would definately recognize EveU's right to dismiss any player they want to. It doesn't take away from the fact that EveU's actions in this particular case diminishes the respect a lot of people hold for them. Unlike you, if a director told me to self-destruct, and could not give me a reason that was good enough, I would told him to get stuffed, and start looking for a new corp. It's my money that pay for my account, and it's my spare time that goes into playing this game.

This mentality would usually not be a problem. That is, until the corp starts issuing stupid orders.



i dont think its stupid order at all. thats an order which helps to minimise stupid loses and deny griefers/enemies free loot. less easy kills - those wannabes get bored and they dont get easy money to continue war dec. not just for eve uni but for majority of corps with not so expirienced pvpers its really rational order.

especially looking at eve uni people who do all they do FOR FREE. i think no one has right to give them any bs becouse they actually DO something for new players and they do it FOR FREE. What do you do ? kktnxbye

Norwood Franskly
Minmatar
Fleet of the Damned
Eternal Ascension
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:50:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Norwood Franskly
TBH I think Eve uni was fully justified in getting rid of you, you don't want to follow orders you shouldn't be in the corp its simple, the fact your on the forums *****ing about it seems to me like they made the right choice.

They called a lockdown for a reason, its not your job to second guess them and think you know better then they do it's your job to follow orders. If you want to lead start your own corp if you join someone elses you play by their rules.


Bolded the important parts as pertaining to this game.



Job [n]: the responsibility to do something

I play this game to do something, doing nothing is free Cool

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2007.12.27 14:57:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: S3XXX
stuff


What I understood from the OP, he was just coming back from a few hours of afk, saw red flashy beings in local and decided to do something about it. It was only after the fact that he was told about the 'lockdown'. This may be completely wrong of course, and as I am of the opinion that a 'lockdown' is to be disobeyed at every moment, it doesn't matter much to me.

Originally by: S3XXX

And the people who seem to be flaming Uni for this tell me this --
Is it better to face a fleet solo or in a gang?
And that is why the Lockdown rule is there.



It is better to face a fleet, period. If it's red, it's dead, and if you're camped into a station, you should be withing your full right to go out and do something about it should you so chose and as long as you are not endangering fellow corpmates or a plan of attack in doing so. That said, it is the responsability of the FC to make sure his subordinates are in the clear of what is to be done. I have been in several corps, and I have NEVER gotten the order to "stay docked or we will pod you". I have heard "stay docked or you will die", but that means that it is unsafe to undock. If I should undock anyway and then die at the hands of the enemy, I have noone to blame but myself. However, in this case the order was to "stay docked or you will get killed by your own corpmates", and that's ****ing stupid.

As to the OP endangering the Uni by undocking and losing his ship, that's equally stupid. If the Uni is actually teaching it's students to try to bore their attackers, then it is worth nothing.

I still say the Uni is well within it's rights to dismiss the player in question. I object to their decision because I think it is stupid and wrong, but it's not my call, nor anyone else's but the EveU's leadership. I held, and to a degree still hold, the Uni with the utmost respect for what they are doing for the new players of this game, but for the first time I have begun to question if the lessons taught are actually good for the players.

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2007.12.27 15:02:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Don ZOLA
especially looking at eve uni people who do all they do FOR FREE. i think no one has right to give them any bs becouse they actually DO something for new players and they do it FOR FREE. What do you do ? kktnxbye


I think I have every right to criticize them. Free or not, they are promoted by the community, and as such the community is free to lift it's support should the Uni do something we don't like. I don't like what they have done in this case. I will tell them so, and argue that they might want to look into their rules and regulations, and reassess how they operate.

As for what I do, I poast on the interweb about spaceships. What do you do?


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