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Mara Mrtyu
Posted - 2007.12.23 20:01:00 - [1]
 

So, after I killed a carrier yesterday, at least one person chided me for buying a character.

Linkage


I understand thereís some animosity around the subject, and not everyone chooses to be as open and upfront about it as I am. Thus, I wanted to launch a discussion about it.

My position is pretty simple. I bought a character, using GTC bought ISK, so I favor the option. I feel one should be judged on what one does with the character, not on whether one was lucky enough to discover eve two years ago, in time to build the character herself. I donít know if Iím in a minority or not.

As for buying characters and ISK, what can I say?

Not all people learn at the same rate. In the real world I tend to be a rapid learner. In eve, to play as well as the character I bought, I'd have to wait TWO years. This is immutable, no matter how well I understand tactics or game mechanics. No matter how well I learn them, I'd have to wait. I'm not that patient.

A n00b with a shiny new character, that also happens to be an idiot, will be simply that: an idiot. Someone with enough SP to fly a carrier can also be an idiot, without purchasing anything.

I know I have to live up to my inherited 34 million SP. I have some growing to do. But, I'll be able to use it when I learn, rather than a year-and-a-half after I learn.

Those of you who have been playing for several years (and yes, you have my respect for that) can afford to say n00bs should wait and use only in-game methods for advancement. That philosophy heavily favors those who have been in-game for years. Since that philosophy would handicap me, I don't really buy into it.

Iím reminded of a quote about how an American capitalist got his start in the great depression. Iím sorry I donít recall who it was, and of course, the quote is a paraphrase, since I canít source it.

ďHereís how I got my start in business. As a young man, I found five cents one day, and bought an apple. I spent the whole day polishing it, and by the end of the day, it was one of the nicest apples anyone had ever seen. I was able to sell it for ten cents. The next day I bought two apples, then four, and so on. After two weeks, I had about two dollars and eighty cents saved up. Then my uncle died and left me 15 million dollars.Ē

There are people who win the lottery, or get an inheritance, and blow it all. Likewise, there are those who use it wisely, and found an empire.

There are people, in eve, who do stupid things with expensive ships. I help kill them.

It is also possible to buy a decent starting place, and still play well.

Respecting only those who got their SP the long way, by waiting for it to accrue, is not unlike respecting oneís elders, simply because they are older. Older does not mean wiser, but I concede it might.

In the real world, saying one must not buy SP is similar to saying one must wait for society to approve them for advancement. Iíve never been down with that idea, and I make no apologies for getting ahead despite it.

Without a purchased character, I could not hope to have 34m SP before 2009. I can hope to play well now. If I play poorly, I will be judged for that, regardless of how many SP I have or how I got them.

So, my point comes down to this: Judge me on how well I can make ISK, in-game, not on whether I bought my first assets with real-world-cash.

Judge me on how well I play, as I am, not on how I got my SP.

I think thatís a fair request.

Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Umbra Synergy
Posted - 2007.12.23 20:04:00 - [2]
 

my only advice is to grow a thick skin, no matter what you do in eve you are going to **** off someone Wink

Benco97
Gallente
Terraprobe Dynamics
Posted - 2007.12.23 20:06:00 - [3]
 

Personally I don't agree with it but if it is allowed in the game then who am I to complain about it.

Richard Phallus
Posted - 2007.12.23 20:09:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Mara Mrtyu
Long intelligent well formated post(this has no place on the eve forums btw)



People will always smack. Just beat'em harder then remind them they keep losing to a 'n00b' or whatever term they have for ya YARRRR!!

SiJira
Posted - 2007.12.23 20:13:00 - [5]
 

you dont have to explain yourself
how many people do you think just logged in to train skills 75% of the time and even unsubbed for long skills until they could fly the best stuff with the best modules?

most of them

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2007.12.23 20:20:00 - [6]
 

Relax, who cares what others say, you were able to obtain a character a legitimate way, and you are having fun using it.
If I had enough cash I would buy GTC and sell them, and get me some ISK, since I do not, I get it the old fashioned way.

Have fun in EVE.



Kazuma Saruwatari
Posted - 2007.12.23 20:25:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Tortun Nahme
my only advice is to grow a thick skin, no matter what you do in eve you are going to **** off someone Wink


I have to quote this post because it speaks volumes of what nearly every EVE player has to do to survive in this game.

Sad to say, some take this game way too seriously and pay huge emotional dividends to the point of leaving the game on very sour terms. ****ed off people can do very scary things IRL over a game.

Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
Posted - 2007.12.23 20:33:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 20:33:47
That is a legitimate way of acquiring a character.

I disapprove of it, imho, RL money should be kept out of game as much as possible. The whole purpose of the virtual world is to be... a virtual world. We should play Eve, not who has better RL job or who inherited $10 mill from a grandfather. RMT destroys it and takes a fun out of the game. After all ppl who don't RMT can say "why to try to be good at this game and spend time on it, when everyone with a fat RL wallet can do the same and better in hours". But I'm talking about an utopia I think and RL money will find the way to crawl into the game. And plz don't tell me I'm envious, I'm working with the market and not with virtual one, so money is not a problemWink I just think it's sad that ppl value their success in game so much that they don't want to play fair and clean.

KillTheScout
Posted - 2007.12.23 20:45:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Mara Mrtyu
blahblah


You dont even need such a long post to justify buying GTCs or toons. There's nothing wrong with it at all. 'nuff said.

All the whiners who protest that are probably the same idiots who always scream for things to get nerfed.

Marsman37X
Amarr
Alder Space Pioneers
Posted - 2007.12.23 20:48:00 - [10]
 

You seem like a sensible guy, can you buy Jenny Spitfire? the new owner is an ex wow player :(

Solomunio Kzenig
Amarr
Indicium Technologies
Hephaestus Forge Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.23 20:52:00 - [11]
 


While kudos to the OP for coming to post here, I have to say that buying a very high SP character (even using legitimate means) would not strike me as a very clever way to do things in EVE. I'm playing about a year now and i'm just shy of 15 million SP's; and I can say with all honesty that the last year has been the steepest learning curve I've ever faced (in games or in RL).

EVE is just so vast and complex that even if you have the EVE Skills to use/do something, it does not follow that you know how to actually use them properly. WIth your high SP charatcter you will make mistakes learning the game and as you can fit and fly much more expensive ships than the average new player, some of those losses could be potentialy very expensive.


Uhr Zylex
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2007.12.23 21:57:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Uhr Zylex on 23/12/2007 21:58:36
I think it has more to do with jealousy spilling over into real life. If you bought this character with GTC-paid ISK, then you probably spent around.. 1000-2000$ on it? Certainly not everyone has that kind of cash to spend on a game.

I've been playing for about a year and have 18m SP, sure I'd like to buy an uber pilot that can fly just about everything well - but I can't afford the buy-isk approach, and it has nothing to do with my actions ingame.

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.12.23 22:21:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 23/12/2007 22:22:05
Actually playing for two years and buying a two year old character does not equate to the same thing.

For someone who is a "quick learner" they certainly posted an incredibly stupid thread.

And of course, post with your "bought" main.

Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Umbra Synergy
Posted - 2007.12.23 22:23:00 - [14]
 

and Anarchyyt falls to the swarm...

Khatred
ReallyPissedOff
Guinea Pigs
Posted - 2007.12.23 22:27:00 - [15]
 

You can't be judged for you skills in an online game if you buy your way. Maybe only by people with a clear judgement but those I find to be a few. Envy it's in the human nature. And online it shows its true teeth. Now and then people are even blamed for receiving help from friends because they also didn't work every 0.01 isk they have. But those situation are not so common because they can backfire with a humiliating "it's your fault you live in a basement and have no friends" however those that buy their way are the perfect target for unleashing one's frustration.
And I know cause I've been there 9 years ago and got pretty mad when in Asheron's Call a much higher mage (wich I knew 100% it was a bought character) killed me. I was M A D. I however got some more levels, better gear and several weeks later I was killing ebayed characters left and right. I didn't care anymore about how one obtain his characters and/or gear because I knew one thing: No matter how much real money a person can spend, I could still outsmart them, outskill them and if they situation calls, outnumber them. And if I couldn't then probably they deserve what they acquired anyway just that it took them much less time. So they value their time different then me and I am in no measure to judge that.

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.12.23 22:30:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tortun Nahme
and Anarchyyt falls to the swarm...


Very Happy

Rasta Farian
Rasta Tropical Club
Posted - 2007.12.24 01:36:00 - [17]
 

Your money, itīs within the rules stated by CCP so do as you wish.

When i started playing i didnīt liked at all the feature to trade GTC for isk.

In my first char i developed a lot of trade/ build skills which a few months later where generating me lots of income mainly from tech2 reselling when the trend was always higher prices.

When i had a few billions i bought this char i am posting with. Then i canceled subscription by credit card and started only playing with GTC bought with isk. Now i bought another char.

I can easily pay the fees on the 3 accounts but if it wasnīt for the "free play" i would not be here today. Last few months been mainly training without playing.

I know i wouldnīt be in your position not because of lack of $$$ nor any moral standard but because of the way i am.

Peace for all!!!

Sabian Treehugger
Minmatar
Self Proclaimed Elite Griefers and Gankers
Posted - 2007.12.24 12:17:00 - [18]
 

If you know how to play the game than it's allright.

But there is nothing more annoying than seeing a total noob buy a char away from you couse he has more rl money.

It happenned to me i had made some isk on the side in the side and even borrowed some to buy this char that someone was seling in the and a noob reactivates his account after a few months sells some gtc and buys it for more than i could give.After that i had to see him asking noob questions in chatEvil or Very Mad.

If he at least knew how to use that char properly it wouldn't annoy people so much.

So you have to respect the people that have a problem with that.Couse eve is a cold harsh place Cool



Gone'Postal
Roast and Toast Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.24 12:33:00 - [19]
 

Nothing wrong with buying chars tbh.


Theo Samaritan
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.12.24 12:42:00 - [20]
 

The problem I have with people buying chars with GTC isk is that more often than not they don't have a clue how to use said char.

I had to explain to Jenny's new owner how a smaller ship can take on a bigger ship and win, "she" couldn't get her head around the fact that experience in eve means more than more isk or bigger ships, citing a level 30 vrs level 70 in wow.

Now dependent on the age of the original main, GTC chars are a shortcut that should not really be taken. Also, it seperates those who are rich IRL from the poor, as a char bought entirely from GTC isk is what, $400 ish? at least?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.12.24 12:55:00 - [21]
 

Mara, all I'll say to you is that you're missing out on an element of personal satisfaction in growing one's character right from the start. If that doesn't mean much to you, then by all means go ahead. You make it very clear that you're enjoying your 34M carrier-killing character, and if that's so, and you're not cheating, then more power to you. One day I or my alt will be able to fly a cap ship, and a significant part of my enjoyment of that will be the knowledge that it's my achievement. Paying to achieve all those SP and assets simply wouldn't be enjoyable for me.

When I had about 5M SP I bought an alt - with ISK I earned in game - with about the same number, and developed her to support me. Now that she has 4x as many SP, she is as involved in my personal enjoyment of EvE as Mal is. So I can hardly condemn you for buying a character when you have done the same. And why should I? My main beef with people who buy characters is that all too often they're the kind of person who thinks that eBaying a $300 toon and buying a few billion ISk means that they're entitled to win EvE. When they find that this is not so, they come crying on the forum. If you can handle your 34M SP competently, can take your losses in good humour and learn from your mistakes then you're an asset to the game.

Liv Forever
Posted - 2007.12.24 13:25:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Estephania
Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 20:33:47
That is a legitimate way of acquiring a character.

I disapprove of it, imho, RL money should be kept out of game as much as possible. The whole purpose of the virtual world is to be... a virtual world. We should play Eve, not who has better RL job or who inherited $10 mill from a grandfather. RMT destroys it and takes a fun out of the game. After all ppl who don't RMT can say "why to try to be good at this game and spend time on it, when everyone with a fat RL wallet can do the same and better in hours". But I'm talking about an utopia I think and RL money will find the way to crawl into the game. And plz don't tell me I'm envious, I'm working with the market and not with virtual one, so money is not a problemWink I just think it's sad that ppl value their success in game so much that they don't want to play fair and clean.


I'm sure lots of ppl posted replies like this but I chose this one cos i cbf reading all the others. RMT doesn't make u good at a game. RMT in most MMOs i have played just save u mindless grinding killing one million murlocs/werewolves/mining ore etc which requires absolutley no skill and doesn't make u a good player just cos u can sit at a computer on ur fat ass doing it 12 hours a day. This guy will prolly suck til he get used to his toon and ships and then he might be good. MMOs should separate players through skill at endgame not by Skillless boring grinding. I for one am sick of the elitist half-brained bs put forward by 80% of MMO gamers who think they are the real deal cos they can sit and focus for hours a day at mindless (in)activity. The old pen and paper rpgs didn't have stupid grinding to get xp (if u had a decent gm). They offered intelligent creative decisions. Computer games can't offer this and that is a problem with computer based MMOs not something that we should value. Good on the OP for not being a total dead #%$# like most players and playing the game for fun!

Theo Samaritan
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.12.24 14:04:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Liv Forever

I'm sure lots of ppl posted replies like this but I chose this one cos i cbf reading all the others. RMT doesn't make u good at a game. RMT in most MMOs i have played just save u mindless grinding killing one million murlocs/werewolves/mining ore etc which requires absolutley no skill and doesn't make u a good player just cos u can sit at a computer on ur fat ass doing it 12 hours a day. This guy will prolly suck til he get used to his toon and ships and then he might be good. MMOs should separate players through skill at endgame not by Skillless boring grinding. I for one am sick of the elitist half-brained bs put forward by 80% of MMO gamers who think they are the real deal cos they can sit and focus for hours a day at mindless (in)activity. The old pen and paper rpgs didn't have stupid grinding to get xp (if u had a decent gm). They offered intelligent creative decisions. Computer games can't offer this and that is a problem with computer based MMOs not something that we should value. Good on the OP for not being a total dead #%$# like most players and playing the game for fun!


Please type in english, "cos" i had trouble understanding what the hell you were talking about.

Mark Lucius
Final Agony
B A N E
Posted - 2007.12.24 14:27:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Liv Forever
I'm sure lots of ppl posted replies like this but I chose this one cos i cbf reading all the others. RMT doesn't make u good at a game. RMT in most MMOs i have played just save u mindless grinding killing one million murlocs/werewolves/mining ore etc which requires absolutley no skill and doesn't make u a good player just cos u can sit at a computer on ur fat ass doing it 12 hours a day. This guy will prolly suck til he get used to his toon and ships and then he might be good. MMOs should separate players through skill at endgame not by Skillless boring grinding. I for one am sick of the elitist half-brained bs put forward by 80% of MMO gamers who think they are the real deal cos they can sit and focus for hours a day at mindless (in)activity. The old pen and paper rpgs didn't have stupid grinding to get xp (if u had a decent gm). They offered intelligent creative decisions. Computer games can't offer this and that is a problem with computer based MMOs not something that we should value. Good on the OP for not being a total dead #%$# like most players and playing the game for fun!


If you want instant gratification, you are in the wrong game. That 'elitist half-brained bs' you are talking about comes from players that spent a couple of hours a week building their reputation, corp or empire. A lot of players actually enjoy EVEs grinding and gladly spend their few hours mining or running missions and they take great pride in achieving their goals this way.

To give a not-so RL example: I have played with dozens of UT/UT2k4 gamers that did nothing but timing power-ups and counting how many jumps it took to get from one end of the map to the other just to pwn. To me this was terrible grinding and not fun, but they enjoyed their hard work and build a reputation out of that. They had every right to spew their 'elitist half-brained bs'.

Tl;dr version:
Don't project your idea of fun on this game Liv.

My opinion:
I don't oppose GTC selling (I buy time with isk) or character trading with isk. By all means have fun, but don't expect your actions to mean anything to any other player.

Azura Nester
The Foreign Legion
Posted - 2007.12.24 14:45:00 - [25]
 

the problem with buying a character is...well u dont get the satisfaction of training up for the ships you fly. let alone knowing there full capibities.
honestly, if you want instant gratification for your characters ability, without working for it, ur in the wrong game m8

Pitt Bull
Caldari Naval Reserve
Posted - 2007.12.24 15:19:00 - [26]
 

tl;dr. tbh, idc. ugh

Taua Roqa
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.12.24 16:00:00 - [27]
 

I think the ability to sell your own character and get another one is a reflection of the fact that in eve you can't simply roll a character to do something and power level them up, there's months and years of training involved. I do think a new player buying a mature character does cheapen it somewhat though, it's like when i used to enter a level skip to the final level in a game when i got one as a kid, and then realising I just wasn't good enough to complete it.

Am much more patient these days, and a much better gamer CoolRazz

Stefx
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
Posted - 2007.12.24 16:10:00 - [28]
 

Just read Death4free's latest post and you can tell by his writing style that he's a young teenager.

Regat Kozovv
Caldari
Alcothology
Posted - 2007.12.24 17:06:00 - [29]
 

I think in many other games if you were to buy a character there would be more justification for others being upset. After all, in many cases, simply having the better gear or higher levels will guarantee you the win.

However, I am pretty confidant that simply having a pile of SP in EVE will not make you uber.

SP will not teach you things such as choosing when to aggress, or not to panic when you get scrambled, or how to properly fit a ship. These things come with experience. It's why you still see people losing capital ships to easy ganks, or expensive ships on missions because they misjudged when to warp out.

I think I speak for most experienced players when I say that I believe skill points will not buy you into the game. Your friend may be envious that he still has to train up skills, but nothing replaces experience gained from simply having played the game over time. You're absolutely right in that you will have to grow into your character. Until then, enjoy your purchase and be sure to take notes. I'm sure you'll get podded just as well as the rest of us have when we were first starting out.

Fly safe. =)

Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.12.24 17:51:00 - [30]
 

I think you would be a fine gangmate to fly with , on Singularity.

No matter the prowess you display , I would be hard pressed to even acknowledge your existence on Tranquility.

While I think that character trade goes against the spirit of the game , ISK can be deserved in many ways. If you had scammed billions to buy that capital pilot , you could still earn my respect. But those who bought their way (legally or not) into the game have my everlasting contempt , wether or not they have the skills to use their expensive toys.


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