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blankseplocked Winning the Unwinnable Game: an Exploration of Corporate Drive
 
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Wodin Drukvik
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.12.19 18:52:00 - [1]
 

No matter how long you play EVE Online, you cannot win.

Allow that thought to remain in the back of your mind as I continue. I present the above idea because it is reality - due to the very nature of the game itself, there is no finite amount of content. No player will ever have every skill trained to V, or even visit every system in the universe once given the territorial struggles that rage across 0.0 and the tiny backwaters ignored in the pursuit of a foe. No player will ever have a killmail from every kind of ship, or even a lossmail from every kind of ship. So the player creates goalposts of his own, like those exemplified by my previous sentence - tangible subsets sliced from the vast universe of possibility. Each player has a different set of these win conditions, and corporations must provide a basis by which that player can succeed.

Allow me to expand upon the previous idea in some small way, as I think that it provides interesting fodder for discussion. For a corporation to be successful, it must provide an environment in which the player is attaining their personal goals even as they accomplish the goals of the corporation. The subtlety, of course, and the reason that there are thousands of corporations and alliaces throughout the 'verse, is that choosing these goals and creating an environment in which they are attainable is both a difficult process and a subconscious one. Think back to when I mentioned those goals above - did they spark interest? Was your immediate reaction "well, Tyrrax could do it?" The point is, the articulation of these goals resonates with us, the players, at a visceral level, and somehow precognitively determining what your subset of players will want may help your corporation succeed.

What are your strategies for choosing corporate goals and finding players who meet those goals? How do you impose a shared vision of what success and winning is upon the universe?

Gneeznow
Minmatar
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2007.12.19 19:03:00 - [2]
 

A very interesting topic which effects us all with some hard substance to it, whose complex and intricate questions i cannot answer.

Iasius
Gallente
Short Bus Pole Dancers
Posted - 2007.12.19 19:21:00 - [3]
 

So is what you are really saying is that you miss WOW?

Wodin Drukvik
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.12.19 19:32:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Iasius
So is what you are really saying is that you miss WOW?


Very much the opposite, in fact. Rather, I am pointing out that humans are by nature an objective-driven, and that unlike World of Warcraft where some (but not all) objectives are delineated for players, EVE allows for a true diaspora in its playerbase. My question to the various corporations of EVE was trying to, in its humble fashion, ask what those objectives were, and what their genesis was.

To ask you directly, in the hopes of potentially clarifying my apparently rather opaque meaning - when you chose to join Seven., what did they offer you in terms of opportunity that you did not have previously? Why are you willing to wear that tag next to your name, and identify yourself with pilots of that cadre?

Itzena
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.12.19 19:34:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Itzena on 19/12/2007 19:34:50
I believe that you may be selling Wodin's hypothesis a little short, my friend. If you are not too busy elsewhere, I humbly suggest that you take a second look at it and see if you still hold the same opinion.

Edit: Oh dear, Wodin replied quicker than I did. Sad

Marshall Deveroux
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.12.19 19:35:00 - [6]
 

The OP in this thread poses a question that should challenge all EVE pilots, and indeed, all MMORPG players, to consider the reasons they choose to engage is these 'shared delusions'. Why play a game that, by definition, cannot be won? Why play a game that cannot be completed? Perhaps we are looking at this issue incorrectly. Perhaps the 'G' in MMORPG is, in fact, a misnomer.

Your thoughts?

Traumatica
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.12.19 19:38:00 - [7]
 

Makes you think, doesn't it. Why are we here?

Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.12.19 19:58:00 - [8]
 

MMORPGs are games you only lose when you stop enjoying the game.

CobraBytez
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.12.19 20:05:00 - [9]
 

Much like life, Eve has no intrinsic goal. I need more time to meditate on this.

Iasius
Gallente
Short Bus Pole Dancers
Posted - 2007.12.19 20:11:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Iasius on 19/12/2007 20:12:00
Well i am a member of Seven as they are in the coalition who are mainly defined as being opposed to BOB.

Beyond that its hard to ascribe more definition of values as EVE does not have the rich social normative moral frameworks that RL does ,to pin identity definitions to Oh yes Seven and its alliance have lots of German players that make me horny on voice comms.

Modok Strongsauce
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.12.19 20:28:00 - [11]
 


Sup Wodin.

Enoban
Amarr
54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry
Kugutsumen.
Posted - 2007.12.19 20:58:00 - [12]
 

Well, remember what they say: The truly bored and disappointed man is the one that has achieved all his goals. That's why many people aim higher than realistically possible in real life. After all, when you achieve all your goals, making new ones isn't so easy, since most goals and objectives are indeed subconciously decided. Creating artificial ones would likely result in a lack of any serious motivation, and hence fail.

I reckon it's precisely this sort of limitless, infinite, and unreachable end-game that attracts people to Eve. This is why I'm still here since 2003. I don't want to win the game, I just enjoy the ride. Just like when I play chess, I don't play to win, I play to enjoy. Sure winning is one of the goals, but the eventual realisation is that satisfaction from winning only serves to boost ego, make us arrogant etc. while enjoying the ride doesn't make us worse. At least, that's what I think. Very interesting topic Wink

Amandrace
Minmatar
DSC inc
Posted - 2007.12.19 21:33:00 - [13]
 

For a Goonthread, I actually enjoyed it.

Ace Frehley
Minmatar
Mercenaries of Andosia
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.12.19 21:58:00 - [14]
 

All this goonspam threads, dont you have a forum where you can post it on a publicsection, so those who cares can go there instead of create a gazzillion topics here???

CobraBytez
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.12.19 22:00:00 - [15]
 

The state of CAOD is truly one of depravity. Even the most well thought out threads are called "spam!"

WrathOfOprah
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.12.19 22:03:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Ace Frehley
All this goonspam threads, dont you have a forum where you can post it on a publicsection, so those who cares can go there instead of create a gazzillion topics here???


Why are you so rude?

Marshall Deveroux
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.12.19 22:08:00 - [17]
 

Comrades, to acknowledge Mr. Frehley's base and trite accusations only gives them merit. Kind sirs, I implore you, do not feed the troll!

Wodin Drukvik
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.12.19 22:45:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Ace Frehley
All this goonspam threads, dont you have a forum where you can post it on a publicsection, so those who cares can go there instead of create a gazzillion topics here???


I posted the thread because I honestly am curious about the motivations of players, both on a personal and corporate level. As a member of an ambitious, aggressive alliance which holds a large amount of 0.0 space, I'm in a very different situation than players in small, non-space-holding corporations and wonder what benefits they get over simply being immune to the entire corporation mechanic by remaining in the initial corporation to which new players are assigned. I was hoping that this thread would provide productive discussion in that direction.

Dafuzz
Gallente
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.12.19 22:47:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Wodin Drukvik
No matter how long you play EVE Online, you cannot win.


You are wise beyond your years

Ungdall
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.12.19 23:25:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Dafuzz
Originally by: Wodin Drukvik
No matter how long you play EVE Online, you cannot win.


You are wise beyond your years



You are handsome beyond your rear, and I would have a dalliance with you.

Joviality aside, it is always important to keep in mind on of my most treasured of lines from the good book "The goal is of no import, a life is decided my the manner of execution." -Brosef 26:23

Danari
Amarr
Invictus Australis
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.12.20 01:02:00 - [21]
 

Structure a corp as win-win and it will succeed. I.e., structure the corp where the success of the members and the success of the corp set off a positive feedback loop.

Recruitment needs to be locked to only allow in members who subscribe to your vision. This is common in pvp corps, less common in industrial corps to their detriment.


Wodin Drukvik
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.12.20 05:34:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Danari
Structure a corp as win-win and it will succeed. I.e., structure the corp where the success of the members and the success of the corp set off a positive feedback loop.

Recruitment needs to be locked to only allow in members who subscribe to your vision. This is common in pvp corps, less common in industrial corps to their detriment.




What incentives typically bring people to PvP corps though? My hypothesis was that corps provided the players means by which to accomplish their goals, and thus PVP corps make some sense as the PVPers get more killmails when banded together, and are thus more close to whatever their ultimate goal was. Was that the case for you?

Quineverre
Amarr
Menace ll Society
Posted - 2007.12.20 05:43:00 - [23]
 

Sure one can win Eve and one can even do that over and over again. We think to much of winning against another player. But in Eve you can win from yourself. Set your goals and accomplish them and better yourself is a form of winning. Its a mindset that not only makes eve more fun but also helps you deal with the real world life game that you can only win when you play against your own person.


Koronos
Minmatar
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2007.12.20 06:43:00 - [24]
 

Really awesome thread. Of course Janu Hull nailed a big portion of it, but there's something about Eve that there is more out there.

One of the things I have to respect about Molle is that he actually set out to win the unwinnable, and came really fricking close. Which also has the sort of Quixotic idealism that makes me like Eve and stick to one alliance for a really long time and try to make it work.

It also makes me think about some of the things I am trying to learn IRL about living in the moment, can you "win" life just by being happy? Or maybe by getting all the isk and chicks and cars you want? Or something? Or by sitting on a pedestal for months and enlightenedly letting the world go to **** around you? RL analogies are typically really really Bad, and frowned upon, but its kinda fun to think about.

Koronos

P.S. your alliance has (as I understand it) at its core proposition to mock every underlying tenet involved in your thread. So at first glance your post might seem either twilight-zonishly out of place or more likely just another trickier method of mockagitation. But just as in the study of Zen the right answer at one stage may result in a painful rap of the knuckles at a more advanced stage I can imagine a multilevel meaning to this post, and so I ponder (with respect to all the spam about the supposed imminent demise of BoB) the application of this post to some goon vision of success and winning at eve. Of course destroying BoB is the goal, but it is naturally not the Groon view of winning at eve. Many would think that the goal is the destruction of the game itself, and no small few think that has already happened. To that extent, have the Goon already won? Or if not, what then?

Like I said, grate post.

Celedris
Gallente
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.12.20 07:28:00 - [25]
 

The object of grief is grief.

Neuraxis Aeon
Caldari
Extreme Addiction
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
Posted - 2007.12.20 07:29:00 - [26]
 

Really when you think about it the whole reason for playing a game is to have fun, but with most MMO's the world sets goals which player try to achieve most it get to lvl - whatever(50 or 100). Eve is a little different as there is no max lvl that is reachable and the main goals is different for some, some like to collect wealth other like to kill people.

The big different with eve over any other MMO is when you lose in eve you can lose big its kind of like a game of poker and you have to be willing to lose a big hand if you want to play. Just like poker eve requires someone else to lose for someone to win.

Personally I just like PvP unfortunately making money is a requirement, but by wanting PvP action I also can be ruining someone else goals. ie Shot down a Transport ship hold a lot of another players wealth. So some can say eve is a little more like real life in that respect. On the other hand what are you losing when you lose nothing but time.

Time is biggest enemy in eve.

Arkanjuca
Caldari
D00M.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.20 07:32:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Wodin Drukvik
Originally by: Danari
Structure a corp as win-win and it will succeed. I.e., structure the corp where the success of the members and the success of the corp set off a positive feedback loop.

Recruitment needs to be locked to only allow in members who subscribe to your vision. This is common in pvp corps, less common in industrial corps to their detriment.




What incentives typically bring people to PvP corps though? My hypothesis was that corps provided the players means by which to accomplish their goals, and thus PVP corps make some sense as the PVPers get more killmails when banded together, and are thus more close to whatever their ultimate goal was. Was that the case for you?


PVP corps brings FCs and available people to form teams at any time. But, you should take care when the carebears come to your corp only cause you have 0.0 access...
Other common interests are ROE type, logistics, language, nation and etc...

Wodin Drukvik
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.12.20 07:46:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Koronos
It also makes me think about some of the things I am trying to learn IRL about living in the moment, can you "win" life just by being happy? Or maybe by getting all the isk and chicks and cars you want? Or something? Or by sitting on a pedestal for months and enlightenedly letting the world go to **** around you? RL analogies are typically really really Bad, and frowned upon, but its kinda fun to think about.



There's the thing I'm honestly curious about - in real life, you're basically set up with support structure after support structure designed to allow you to end up in something that's "winning" for whatever you choose to determine that winning is. But in EVE, you pretty much have the newbcorp and the newbie help channel, and that's it. Ironically, players are working from a weaker base than real life in terms of both expectations of what the world is about(EVE is marketed as a "fly a spaceship, blow stuff up" but we all know it's much deeper than that). So corporations have to adapt and focus on the specifics.

I've actually put some more thought into the way that corporations evolve, and I noticed a few recurrent social groupings: you have some out-of-game binding force(friendship, nationality), some game-focused motivational force(PvP corps and industrial corps where you want to excel at one area), and coincidental collaboration(for example, the corporations that accumulate their members in defense of a particular mission hub or lowsec system). What I can't really figure out are the mid-sized corps where there's not any specific element binding the group of people together, they don't hold space or do heavy industry, and I guess in my eyes are stumbling through EVE. What's holding those corporations together?

Quote:
But just as in the study of Zen the right answer at one stage may result in a painful rap of the knuckles at a more advanced stage I can imagine a multilevel meaning to this post, and so I ponder (with respect to all the spam about the supposed imminent demise of BoB) the application of this post to some goon vision of success and winning at eve. Of course destroying BoB is the goal, but it is naturally not the Groon view of winning at eve. Many would think that the goal is the destruction of the game itself, and no small few think that has already happened. To that extent, have the Goon already won? Or if not, what then?



I always find it puzzling that people say that Goonfleet is out to "destroy" the game, when it's acted as a catalytic force for so many players(whatever their orientation towards our little coalition as a whole) for so long. Certainly the propaganda and rhetoric may be silly, but no alliance is without their moments of flag-waving and chest-thumping. I think that if you spoke to different members of Goonswarm, you would get vastly different answers as to what their motivations are and, in particular, how Goonswarm allows them to accomplish that particular goal. I'd emphasize the latter bit particularly - by being a corporation that's big enough to do everything, it creates a sort of positive feedback loop of success - because players can always find a place(even if it's Theta busily earning money by arbitrage in our own stations), they have fun, and keep playing despite whatever the political climate of the time is.

As I've asked several others this question, I suppose it's only fair to answer it myself. For me, Goonfleet provides an environment where I can play fairly casually while still being allowed to participate in the interesting aspects of territorial warfare(I'm in your space, cloaking on your gate). My primary motivation is to kill one of everything while being as lazy as possible, so it works out. Admittedly, I'm not doing well on my goal(I've missed every supercap thus far).

Quote:
Like I said, grate post.


Thanks - it's a question I've been curious about for a while, and fortune favored me with an opportunity to ask it.

Don ZOLA
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.12.20 08:38:00 - [29]
 

i win eve on daily basis. i dont even have to login, its enough to get on vent. i win it while i read corp forums from work, and have msn gang chats during the work. i win it when i hear my corpies voices when i get on vent. or when i login and talk to them ingame. i win when i get gang invite, when we go fighting, when we kill enemies, even when i die (happens rarely, but even i die sometimes :/.

im pretty sure my brosefs feel the same. we win. we play this game for fun and be sure we are getting it. we take the game very serious thou, and we are among the best at what we do ( i can put only MC infront of us, and thats just cuz of their massive fleets we cant match, based on pure skill we are teh eve win :D). we win when we go fighting outnubmered and still enemies drop our numbers in carriers on us :D we win when no one wants to fight us with same odds, we win whatever numbers are in question. we win if coalition dies, we win if alliance dies aswell. simply we dont care about others, we have our job, we do our best to complete it, and we are enjoying it every second.

thats why we win eve. cuz we just love it, enjoy the game and enjoy each others company, <3 my brothers in arms.

Tom Gunn
Caldari
Defiant..
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2007.12.20 09:32:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Iasius
So is what you are really saying is that you miss WOW?


I miss wow, i've not played it in hours....


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