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William Hart
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:44:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: William Hart on 18/12/2007 19:45:13
It looks like CCP are imposing even more restrictions on fan sites that are registered as "community sites". Here is the full agreement for current (registered?) community sites.

Some favourites..

Quote:
2.2. Non-permissible acts
Use CCP’s trademarks in respect of your domain name.


Quote:
2.2. Non-permissible acts
Create, distribute, or use any material that is derogatory, obscene, or offensive.


Quote:
2.2. Non-permissible acts
Create, distribute, or use any material that devalues any CCP Games product in any way.


Quote:
3.3. Termination and discontinuation
You agree that CCP, in its sole discretion, may terminate the right to use the Properties, in whole or in part, for any reason whatsoever, in CCP’s sole discretion, with or without notice. You agree that CCP shall not be liable to you or any third-party for any such termination.


Quote:
3.4. Creative Control
CCP reserves the unconditional rights to monitor the content of any works inspired by or based on the Properties and to take any steps necessary to ensure continuity and consistency of the Eve Online universe or any other intellectual property of CCP.


So, does this mean CCP will attempt to shut down community sites that use EVE in their domain name (eg: ineve.net) or post a news item that may discredit CCP (eg: boot.ini fiasco, or an article on the EVE ISK buying & macro plague)?

Ander
Gallente
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:46:00 - [2]
 

2.2. Non-permissible acts
Create, distribute, or use any material that devalues any CCP Games product in any way.

This means I cant post warnings that CCP ****s their patches and accidently delete boot.ini?

Seriously CCP. Get real, stop with the censure.
Not only will I as a long time fansite owner have to resubmit my site for the scrutiny of CCP. I'll have to tip-toe to not risk angering the oh great CCP.

JamnOne
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:46:00 - [3]
 

Ok, I laughed at the title...but where does MS fit into this? I don't see any examples.

Lloyd Thargon
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:50:00 - [4]
 

Censure means to punish or formally reprimand, usually by a legislative body like the US Congress or the UK Parliment.

I think the word you're looking for is "Censor".

And when it comes down to it, CCP's trademarks are their lifeblood; if you don't vigorously protect them you can lose them. Having an agreement that says if you want to run a sanctioned fansite that doesn't take a giant crap all over their trademarks isn't exactly an onerous requirement.

Their game, their trademarks, their rules.


Ander
Gallente
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:53:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Lloyd Thargon
Censure means to punish or formally reprimand, usually by a legislative body like the US Congress or the UK Parliment.

I think the word you're looking for is "Censor".

And when it comes down to it, CCP's trademarks are their lifeblood; if you don't vigorously protect them you can lose them. Having an agreement that says if you want to run a sanctioned fansite that doesn't take a giant crap all over their trademarks isn't exactly an onerous requirement.

Their game, their trademarks, their rules.




Censure is exactly what I meant.
CCP has pulled stunts on these on inviduals who angered them.
Remember mr K who revealed the t20 affair?

William Hart
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:55:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Ander
Originally by: Lloyd Thargon
Censure means to punish or formally reprimand, usually by a legislative body like the US Congress or the UK Parliment.

I think the word you're looking for is "Censor".

And when it comes down to it, CCP's trademarks are their lifeblood; if you don't vigorously protect them you can lose them. Having an agreement that says if you want to run a sanctioned fansite that doesn't take a giant crap all over their trademarks isn't exactly an onerous requirement.

Their game, their trademarks, their rules.




Censure is exactly what I meant.
CCP has pulled stunts on these on inviduals who angered them.
Remember mr K who revealed the t20 affair?


Perhaps K is on to the next big scandal and this is a preemptive measure to reduce damages by ensuring fan-sites are too scared to post the next "XXX alliance is backed by devs"..

Trypho
Minmatar
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.18 20:25:00 - [7]
 

Even though above things are in the agreement let me tell you this - CCP has been really supportive and tolerant to fansites (like my own) when it comes down to organizing own contests or features. Creating own EVE themed banners for the website or organizing contests can be done without any trouble at all, but they do reserve the right to prohibit misuse of their IPO.

It`s not more then normal for CCP to be covered for whatever liability possible, and this really is nothing compared to ie. Blizzards style of handling this. I don`t really see what the problem is, because we enjoyed cooperating with CCP sofar.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2007.12.18 20:35:00 - [8]
 

Oh, they finally got around to updating it. Unfortunately, the new restrictions are quite unreasonable.

Quote:
2.2. Non-permissible acts

You undertake not to perform any of the following acts:
* Use CCP’s trademarks in respect of your domain name.

The following are the websites currently ON the list which violate this part by having "Eve" in the domain name:
EVE ONLINE CROATIA
EVE ONLINE BRAZIL
EVE WEBSPACE
EVE RADIO GERMANY
ICSC/JUMPPLANNER
EVE WIKI INFO JP
EVE-SPIRIT
EVE ONLINE CZ
EVE CAREERS
EVE NAG
IN-EVE
EVE-CENTRALA
ALL ABOUT EVE ONLINE
EVE NEWS
EVE WARCRY
EVE MONDES PERSISTANTS
EVE COLDFRONT
EVE HISTORY
EVE LITHUANIA
EVE RO CENTER
EVE-ROMANIA
EVE GERMANY
EVE KOR
EVE TENTONHAMMER
EVE VAULT
EVE ONLINE FAN
EVE TRIBUNE
EVE MMORPGITALIA
EVE BULGARIA
EVE PIRATE
EVE RU
EVE UNIEVERSO
EVE ONLINE - HUNGARY

Then we have these two gems:
Quote:

Create, distribute, or use any material that is not consistent with the functionality, atmosphere, and parameters of the Eve Online universe as created and owned by CCP Games.

and
Quote:
Create, distribute, or use any material that devalues any CCP Games product in any way.

Those two parts essentially mean they will remove sites if they feel like it or if they say anything negative about eve-online. Guess I can forget about getting added to the list since I tend to very critically analyse patches and eve's game design.

Plutoinum
Mercenaries of Andosia
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2007.12.18 20:41:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Plutoinum on 18/12/2007 20:56:51
nvm, read wrong.

Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Umbra Synergy
Posted - 2007.12.18 20:41:00 - [10]
 

tinfoil thread is shiny

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2007.12.18 20:46:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Plutoinum
Looks like they noticed that their stuff was used in other games without asking for permission and without mentioning EVE.

I can understand that they are not happy about it, e.g. there was a broswergame that I've been playing a bit, was not bad, but it used eve avatars as portraits for players and npcs, and I didn't see eve mentioned there.
So if some sites do that without permission, don't even mention eve and are commercial, then CCP is probably not very amused.

The old agreement already covered this, as do design copyright and trademark laws. The new agreement just means that a site won't be listed on the official fansite list if it has an eve trademark in the name (like "eve"), talks badly about CCP or eve or even just because they don't think it portrays eve the way they want.

It's their decision but I was really looking forward to getting on that list. I even removed my google ads and switched over to a more pallatable game time code affiliate link and a donate button. I may as well throw the google ads back up now if being on the official list means I can't say CCP screwed something up in a recent patch.

William Hartas
Caldari
Academia de Combate
Posted - 2007.12.18 20:47:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: William Hart
..text..


Nice name, dude.

Luigi Thirty
Caldari
The Minmatarded
Posted - 2007.12.18 20:47:00 - [13]
 

Something tells me those are the criteria for being listed as a fansite on Eve-O.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2007.12.18 20:56:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Luigi Thirty
Something tells me those are the criteria for being listed as a fansite on Eve-O.

Of course it is. I doubt they would try to shut down fansites that didn't comply as long as they didn't break copyright law or anything like that. But being on the fansite list would be nice.

Mathias Zealot
MAIDS
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:08:00 - [15]
 

You know that by logging into eve you intentionally lag the server, which is a permaban offense under the EULA. Just because the legal papers say they CAN doesn't mean they WILL because it's not in their best interest to start enforcing them and kicking up a ****storm with the fansite community. More likely than not, the rules are there to cover their trademarks and enforce a modicum of civility among the sites.

If you tried to submit a fansite like eve-blows.com they can deny you because they don't like it, or if your site is all about flaming and trolling CCP they can deny you because they don't like it, but your average fansite isn't going to get snagged by the restrictions because they are there for CCP to legally decline fansite admission to the list and not get sued over it.

less aluminum haberdashery please. Rolling Eyes

Katja Shade
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:11:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: William Hart
to reduce damages by ensuring fan-sites are too scared to post the next "XXX alliance is backed by devs"..


OMFG XXX ALLIANCE IS BACKED BY DEVS!?!?!?!?!?! THIS IS ___THE END___ Laughing

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:15:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Mathias Zealot
legal
legally

They can do what they like in these cases, both in-game and in their website. Laws don't get involved at all, they can delete sites from the fanlist whenever they like for no reason and they can ban a player whenever they like for any made-up reason they like. There's no law stopping them doing any of that and they don't need you to click an "I Agree" button to accept it.

The EULA and the fan submission guidelines are there as a courtesy to players, to let them know what is generally accepted and expected of them. I fully expect that these guidelines will be enforced.

Plutoinum
Mercenaries of Andosia
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:24:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Plutoinum on 18/12/2007 21:26:38
@Nyphur, yes misread it. I read through it and missed the fan site part.

But to me these rules sound reasonable. They've just made them more concrete, where they were probably open for interpretation.

These rules mean e.g., you can't make an EVE hate site and use the EVE logos and content in original or modified form for that.
Or: You can't make an isk selling site and use eve content to promote it.
Or: You can't promote your own commercial game by (ab)using copyrighted stuff or trying to catch customers by baiting them on your EVE fan site.
Or: You can't present EVE in conjunction with explicit material on your site, that could harm eve's reputation.
Or: You can't name your site 'offical eve fan site' and use the eve logos etc., although it isn't offical. Which could also fire back on CCP.

So in my eyes these rules look reasonable. I don't think that they are meant to stop eve players saying their opinion about EVE, but just to prevent that EVE and its content is used in a way that harms EVE in the end and CCP ofc.

CCP kieron

Posted - 2007.12.18 21:27:00 - [19]
 

Ask a lawyer to write up guidelines and you end up with a document that signs away your first born child! Wink

On a more serious note, we realize there is an increase in the amount of "legalese" in the new Fansite guidelines, but our intention is to strengthen the relationships with our current Fansites, not weaken them. We want to provide more support for the Fansites, this is why applications and contest support is being moved back to the Community group. Support has grown into something too large for one person to handle.

I will send an inquiry to the Legal Team to come up with a document that is a friendlier interpretation of the guidelines. Until such a time, I would ask that further inquiries be sent to me.

On a personal note, I look forward to working with each and every one of the Fansites that have supported EVE. I truly feel they are responsible for no small part of EVE Online's success.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:30:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Nyphur on 18/12/2007 21:30:24
Originally by: Plutoinum
So in my eyes these rules look reasonable. I don't think that they are meant to stop eve players saying their opinion about EVE, but just to prevent that EVE and its content is used in a way that harms EVE in the end and CCP ofc.

Hopefully you're right. I'll submit my site later and see what happens.

EDIT: Kieron rocks, hugs all round.

Loyal Servant
Caldari
The Knights Templar
Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:40:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: CCP kieron

On a more serious note, we realize there is an increase in the amount of "legalese" in the new Fansite guidelines, but our intention is to strengthen the relationships with our current Fansites, not weaken them.



In other words, If one of these sites was reporting eve news and they reported that t20 helped bob, and that CCP b0rked a few thousand machines... you now have some method of shutting said site down, and/or ruining a person financially and morally... all because they reported the truth?

Now, if someone was to report something that was blatant slander, okay.

However, reporting the boot.ini issue, or the t20 issue is negative news and forbidden under these guidelines.

Got censorship?



Sakura Nihil
Selective Pressure
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:41:00 - [22]
 

Growing pains.

Mathias Zealot
MAIDS
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:57:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Mathias Zealot on 18/12/2007 22:00:23
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Mathias Zealot
legal
legally

They can do what they like in these cases, both in-game and in their website. Laws don't get involved at all, they can delete sites from the fanlist whenever they like for no reason and they can ban a player whenever they like for any made-up reason they like. There's no law stopping them doing any of that and they don't need you to click an "I Agree" button to accept it.

The EULA and the fan submission guidelines are there as a courtesy to players, to let them know what is generally accepted and expected of them. I fully expect that these guidelines will be enforced.


I never said they couldn't do so without it, but lawsuits have been filed and won over smaller things than that. Without a legal backing for their actions there is a possibility they could be sued for it. By having you agree to the rules by clicking that "I Agree" button you give them the ability to remove you from the list for any of those reasons with no way to complain about it, that's why it's there. Besides, they have to keep the lawyers busy with something Razz

I expect that they can't enforce these guidelines given that the nature of adding the word EVE to the domain name is to make it descriptive and more specific (and the domain names tend to be more available). take your own site for example: Tanking.com is not only already taken, but it is also too general to be helpful. Tanking what? in WoW? It isn't a clear domain name. eve-tanking.com clarifies that the site is about tanking in eve. What I expect in the matter may well be wrong, but I can't see them enforcing this one too rigorously.

Edit: Kieron got in before me, but there you have it. Kieron ftw.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:58:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Loyal Servant
Originally by: CCP kieron

On a more serious note, we realize there is an increase in the amount of "legalese" in the new Fansite guidelines, but our intention is to strengthen the relationships with our current Fansites, not weaken them.



In other words, If one of these sites was reporting eve news and they reported that t20 helped bob, and that CCP b0rked a few thousand machines... you now have some method of shutting said site down, and/or ruining a person financially and morally... all because they reported the truth?

Now, if someone was to report something that was blatant slander, okay.

However, reporting the boot.ini issue, or the t20 issue is negative news and forbidden under these guidelines.

Got censorship?




As far as I am aware, it's not a real legal contract. They can't take someone to court over it or get a court order to shut down a website unless another law is broken.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.18 22:01:00 - [25]
 

Quote:
In other words, If one of these sites was reporting eve news and they reported that t20 helped bob, and that CCP b0rked a few thousand machines... you now have some method of shutting said site down, and/or ruining a person financially and morally... all because they reported the truth?


If this is really the case, than it would be best for no fansite owner to sign it. Better lose CCPs approval but be still able to report all news, then to give overzealous lawyers a stick to beat you to death. Neutral

Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2007.12.18 22:01:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Ander
2.2. Non-permissible acts
Create, distribute, or use any material that devalues any CCP Games product in any way.

This means I cant post warnings that CCP ****s their patches and accidently delete boot.ini?

Seriously CCP. Get real, stop with the censure.
Not only will I as a long time fansite owner have to resubmit my site for the scrutiny of CCP. I'll have to tip-toe to not risk angering the oh great CCP.


Lols, their own forums do a good enough job of devaluing CCP.

SKUNK

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2007.12.18 22:33:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Nyphur on 18/12/2007 22:33:10
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Quote:
In other words, If one of these sites was reporting eve news and they reported that t20 helped bob, and that CCP b0rked a few thousand machines... you now have some method of shutting said site down, and/or ruining a person financially and morally... all because they reported the truth?


If this is really the case, than it would be best for no fansite owner to sign it. Better lose CCPs approval but be still able to report all news, then to give overzealous lawyers a stick to beat you to death. Neutral


Good point :/.
Would be good to get a proper response to these specific concerns but I doubt there are any lawyers playing eve that could advise us of what this agreement represents.

Lithius 1
Posted - 2007.12.19 02:45:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: JamnOne
Ok, I laughed at the title...but where does MS fit into this? I don't see any examples.


Right. If we had MS working on the server, we might actually be able to play, instead of complain on the forums :P

Cyan Nuevo
Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships
Posted - 2007.12.19 02:58:00 - [29]
 

Maybe some of you guys don't get out in the real world much, but it is very common for a company to establish very strict rules like this but then be very lenient about them. It gives them a bit of legal discretion.

For example, posting "the expansion deletes boot.ini, that's garbage" and "ccp sucks, I hate them, let's organize a campaign to take down EVE" are very different and yet harder to differentiate legally. Covering both in their agreement but then only enforcing the rules on the second is much easier.

(If you think this is bad, try renting an apartment (flat), at least here in the US. Most apartment complexes could make you a bum on the street while still paying rent at their own discretion.)

No Wai
Posted - 2007.12.19 03:05:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Ander
Remember mr K who revealed the t20 affair?


Remember that he tried to blackmail people with the information?


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