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blankseplocked A plea to CCP
 
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Temak Leob
Posted - 2007.12.07 21:29:00 - [1]
 

I know this will be viewed as unwarranted ranting by many EVE players and CCP employees alike, but I feel I still have the right to voice my opinion.

So far the performance of EVE on Mac has been nothing short of abysmal. The "native" client suffers from a low FPS, it crashes frequently and exhibits a number of other symptoms that have made the game all but unplayable for many Mac users. There's no way around it: the game is nigh on unplayable on OS X. It's not a matter of low FPS either. That's something I could maybe live with. It's the constant, unpredictable crashes that destroy whatever playability the game has.

The biggest annoyance is that I have to pay the exact same amount as people who use Windows, and who not only have access to "premium graphical content" but can actually play the game for over an hour without it crashing. I would love to demand a price cut or even a refund from CCP, but I realize they're in a thight spot: they have no way of knowing which client someone is using. If they started handing out reduced prices to OS X users, everybody and their brother could possibly claim they're stuck using the buggy client just to get a cheaper subscription. On the other hand, they could lock accounts so that you could only use either OS X/Linux clients or the Windows client, but not both. That solution would be less than optimal too, since it would prevent people from easily switching from one version to another.

The question stands, CCP, what are you going to do about the matter? I realize Mac and Linux users are a marginal source of income, but does that justify having us pay full price for an unusable product? If no effort is going to be put into Mac / Linux QA, it would be more merciful to just end support for other platforms altogether than having us pay money for what amounts to nothing.

Even though I know it is not likely to happen, I would like CCP to compensate us somehow until they release a working client. I will not pay full price for a product that is currently substandard, and if it does not improve I will simply unsubscribe.

If there are others out there who feel the same way, voice your opinion here. Maybe we can actually get something going.

Versteckter
Posted - 2007.12.07 22:07:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Versteckter on 07/12/2007 22:09:23
First I will say that I am, always have been, and will always be a Mac user. That being said, don't expect much from CCP on this matter. For them to release a version for Mac that is as good as the Winblows client they would have to rewrite everything from the ground up. That just isn't going to happen and they have basically said as much. And that is their right. The Mac client you are using is far from a native client. It's the effort of a 3rd party software company that happen to like Macs, a lot, and took the time to make EVE run on Macs as best they could at the time. I suspect it will get better but don't expect it to be as stable and functional as the Winblows client.
The other thing is that you are paying CCP for access to their gaming servers, not the software you are running on your computer. Hence the No Price Tag on the software you downloaded. Sure, some of that money gets used for development but the monthly charge is for access, not software.
Trust me, I really feel your pain. I don't understand why software companies are oblivious to the fact that not everyone using Winblows computers. Not to bring up this up to start a fight but do you honestly think that World of Warcraft would have been as successful if Blizzard had only made a Winblows version? I think not. Sure it may have been successful but no even close to what it is.
Sadly I believe this is the best we can hope for. I'm sure Transgaming will get it working better but don't expect CCP to wright a Mac client in your lifetime. I hope they do but I'm just being honest.

Seyk Terran
Acquisition Commune of Industry
Posted - 2007.12.07 22:07:00 - [3]
 

Yea I'll agree with you. My client crashes randomly since the trinity patch. I've dealt with about 4-5 crashes in about 3 hour log-time. But I totally disagree with the "marginal income" bit. CCP is a business out to make money, they wouldn't release for Mac if they didn't think they could make the cash.

I'm not totally sore about the premium graphics though, but I am sore about the poor effort to let us know about that ahead of time.

So in short, yea man... I'm with you.

Tamek Loeb
Posted - 2007.12.07 22:53:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Tamek Loeb on 08/12/2007 00:26:59
Originally by: Versteckter
Edited by: Versteckter on 07/12/2007 22:09:23
First I will say that I am, always have been, and will always be a Mac user. That being said, don't expect much from CCP on this matter. For them to release a version for Mac that is as good as the Winblows client they would have to rewrite everything from the ground up. That just isn't going to happen and they have basically said as much. And that is their right. The Mac client you are using is far from a native client. It's the effort of a 3rd party software company that happen to like Macs, a lot, and took the time to make EVE run on Macs as best they could at the time. I suspect it will get better but don't expect it to be as stable and functional as the Winblows client.
The other thing is that you are paying CCP for access to their gaming servers, not the software you are running on your computer. Hence the No Price Tag on the software you downloaded. Sure, some of that money gets used for development but the monthly charge is for access, not software.
Trust me, I really feel your pain. I don't understand why software companies are oblivious to the fact that not everyone using Winblows computers. Not to bring up this up to start a fight but do you honestly think that World of Warcraft would have been as successful if Blizzard had only made a Winblows version? I think not. Sure it may have been successful but no even close to what it is.
Sadly I believe this is the best we can hope for. I'm sure Transgaming will get it working better but don't expect CCP to wright a Mac client in your lifetime. I hope they do but I'm just being honest.


So what you're saying is, basically, I should be grateful that I'm allowed to "access their gaming servers" and quit the whining about the faulty client that someone graciously decided to emulate?

Faulty logic. Since the only way to access the servers is by using their client, I have no other choice. Secondly, the money I pay for my subscription goes to CCP which undoubtedly uses the money to fund the client-side programmers too. If it was an open architechture and you had plenty of clients to choose from, you might have a point. Under the current circumstance you're not making any sense. As a paying customer I have the right to demand a product that works.

matt way
Southern Cross Incorporated
Flying Dangerous
Posted - 2007.12.08 14:50:00 - [5]
 

My experience with the client has been nothing short of excellent. Just because it isn't working for you doesn't mean it isn't working for everyone. CCP didn't just decide to not include the premium graphics cause they felt like being mean to mac/linux users. The technology to make all the pretty dx9 effects work on mac/linux is still being developed. If you are having issues, bug report them and help them fix the problems. Posting on the forums and complaining does nothing really to solve your problem. Asking CCP to reimburse you is plain silly. If you really can't stand it, take a break and come back in a few months.


Dors Venabily
Posted - 2007.12.09 17:21:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Dors Venabily on 09/12/2007 17:22:16
Well i did have problems with the mac client before but since i started to run it windowed mode i can play with slightly more or the same ammount of crashes (once every 4 5 hours of game play) that i experience with windows.
iam running it on alu iMac 24 inch 2.4 core 2gb of ram with 10.5.1

eidt oh yeah the fps is significantly lower but still playable on this machine


Tamek Loeb
Posted - 2007.12.09 18:17:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: matt way
My experience with the client has been nothing short of excellent. Just because it isn't working for you doesn't mean it isn't working for everyone. CCP didn't just decide to not include the premium graphics cause they felt like being mean to mac/linux users. The technology to make all the pretty dx9 effects work on mac/linux is still being developed. If you are having issues, bug report them and help them fix the problems. Posting on the forums and complaining does nothing really to solve your problem. Asking CCP to reimburse you is plain silly. If you really can't stand it, take a break and come back in a few months.




Just because it's working for you, doesn't mean it's working for everyone. Have you actually read these forums or talked to other OS X users? A significant number of people are having serious problems with the client. I filed bug reports until I was blue in the face, but that won't change the fact that it's unusable now. In any other transaction, if I buy something that doesn't work, I get reimbursed. Simple. Any reason why it shouldn't work with software?

Where do you apologists get off? Like I've said time and time again, I have the right to voice my opinion since I pay money to CCP to be able to play the game. If you have no problems with the client; great, good for you. Don't think you can come over here and say I have no right to complain, though. If you don't like people complaining, get off the forums then.

matt way
Southern Cross Incorporated
Flying Dangerous
Posted - 2007.12.10 06:54:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Tamek Loeb

Just because it's working for you, doesn't mean it's working for everyone. Have you actually read these forums or talked to other OS X users? A significant number of people are having serious problems with the client. I filed bug reports until I was blue in the face, but that won't change the fact that it's unusable now. In any other transaction, if I buy something that doesn't work, I get reimbursed. Simple. Any reason why it shouldn't work with software?

Where do you apologists get off? Like I've said time and time again, I have the right to voice my opinion since I pay money to CCP to be able to play the game. If you have no problems with the client; great, good for you. Don't think you can come over here and say I have no right to complain, though. If you don't like people complaining, get off the forums then.



I'm not saying you don't have a right to complain, I said complaining doesn't really do that much to solve the problems. Generally people will only come to the forums when they are having problems.. This could hide the real percentage of users that are having problems. Filing bug reports isn't going to fix it right this instant, but it will most certainly help improve the client in future patches. I think somebody else pointed out that we aren't really paying for the software, we are paying for the ability to connect to the server. What's to stop someone getting reimbursed for using the mac client, then going and playing on the windows client? It just gets too complicated. I'm not a baddie, I think we would both like to see the mac client get better. Getting mad won't help.


Nemesios
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2007.12.10 08:17:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Nemesios on 10/12/2007 08:17:22
Hi,

I am new and I took a subscription for 12 months.
I canceled the subscription, I will finish the month of January, if CCP would not fix the problem with the customer crash I Quit!

And I encourage everyone to do the same thing.

Tamek Loeb
Posted - 2007.12.11 12:03:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: matt way

I'm not saying you don't have a right to complain, I said complaining doesn't really do that much to solve the problems. Generally people will only come to the forums when they are having problems.. This could hide the real percentage of users that are having problems. Filing bug reports isn't going to fix it right this instant, but it will most certainly help improve the client in future patches. I think somebody else pointed out that we aren't really paying for the software, we are paying for the ability to connect to the server. What's to stop someone getting reimbursed for using the mac client, then going and playing on the windows client? It just gets too complicated. I'm not a baddie, I think we would both like to see the mac client get better. Getting mad won't help.



Complacent quietude does nothing to solve the problem either. Only by voicing our opinions can we get CCP to change their QA methods for the Mac client.

And the "paying to be able to connect to the server" is complete horse puckey. The only client on the market is theirs, and even though the client itself is downloadable for free, it doesn't do anything without the central servers. This does not translate to "we're paying for the servers only", this just means that the client&server package constitutes a service.

In this case, CCP failed to deliver.

CCP Lingorm


C C P
Posted - 2007.12.11 14:09:00 - [11]
 

We have some more crash fixes currently in testing.

We hope to get them out to the public soon.

Ozzzn
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:35:00 - [12]
 

What about the graphical problem?

Hagis McBree
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:53:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Hagis McBree on 11/12/2007 21:53:52
Originally by: Ozzzn
What about the graphical problem?


in the other thread you posted you had a macbook?

take a look at this
http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=124


Ozzzn
Posted - 2007.12.12 09:01:00 - [14]
 

:s nope mate it didn't help at all.


Draleth
Gallente
Posted - 2007.12.12 10:54:00 - [15]
 

1. I, too, am suffering the problem, and simply refuse to purchase a copy of Windows to play a damn game.

2. EVE is being "simulated" using, as stated above, third-party software. This software is called Cedega, and is based off of a freely-available suite of Windows-Replacement Tools called WINE, which allows you to run any Windows software as natively as possible. No Window was harmed in the creation of this tool, but because Microsoft isn't the most open, support isn't great either. It may run, but Cedega / Wine / CrossOver make no guarantee as to how well. (CrossOver is a commercial product, so it may fair better, I do not know.)

3. I've experimented with WINE (the base simulation environment) long, long ago, and even got versions of EVE from years back running under Linux. That said, then, like now, it crashed. A lot.

4. It is very, very poor form for the Mac & Linux "clients" to be released as final products. This is alpha / beta quality, at best. I agree, I shouldn't have to pay for an experience that sucks this badly. Wait. I don't. No-one is forcing anybody to stay. Unfortunately, bleeding Mac users isn't going to make CCP wake up any time soon.

5. I was shocked and saddened when I first found out that the beautiful graphics of EVE were created in DirectX. DirectX means no other operating system client will ever look as good as the Windows client. OpenGL is the way modern games are written (with the exception of games produced by or developed by companies in Microsoft's pocket. OpenGL on the Mac is insanely good; supporting multi-threading, CPU-offloading, and a variety of other goodness. ID games, for example, make nearly all of their popular games using open technologies like OpenGL, OGG Vorbis for audio, etc. and release them for the "big three": Windows, Mac, and Linux.

6. The playing field is stacked against Mac games. Apple isn't going to hand a production company a few million dollars to be "exclusive", unlike Microsoft, who can do so without hesitation, and do all the time. This is a sad reality that isn't going to change any time soon. Or any time at all, as I believe.

7. Using tools like Cedega, CrossOver, or just WINE by itself, allows you to roughly experience the games that are exclusive to Windows. Not necessarily as the developer intended (as DX shaders don't work), but they at least let you get the flavour.

(Oh, and BTW: CCP can tell what operating system everyone is using. They could read files straight off your HDD if they wanted -- you're running their software whose primary purpose is to communicate with a central server -- but I highly doubt they do. "Anonymous usage statistics" and information "for debugging purposes" is fair game for collection, though.)

Temak Leob
Posted - 2007.12.12 13:58:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Temak Leob on 12/12/2007 13:58:56
Hey CCP, could you give us some indication on when the patch might be ready?

CCP Lingorm


C C P
Posted - 2007.12.12 15:28:00 - [17]
 

Meeting shortly, I will try to update you asap after the meeting on a delivery for the patch ...

Temak Leob
Posted - 2007.12.12 19:26:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: CCP Lingorm
Meeting shortly, I will try to update you asap after the meeting on a delivery for the patch ...



Great, hope to get some positive news soon. I love the game so It'd be great to be able to really enjoy it.

Swordfishe
Posted - 2007.12.12 20:30:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Swordfishe on 12/12/2007 20:30:42
btw, CPP: you guys being active on this forum is super appreciated... even if we're all a bunch of flesh-eating trolls at this point.

Evhun
Posted - 2007.12.12 21:11:00 - [20]
 

I am also experiencing frequent crashes (usually every 20 minutes or so) on the Mac client. It is indeed quite unplayable. I'd love to hear a reply from someone associated with CCP regarding their plans for this issue.

Syster Yster
Posted - 2007.12.12 23:02:00 - [21]
 

just wanted to say that i to experience crashes ; several times every hour making it unplayable in os x :( Im stuck with bootcamp untill it get fixed.

Archir
Posted - 2007.12.13 02:04:00 - [22]
 

Any update after that meeting? Hate to be a pest, but....

CCP Lingorm


C C P
Posted - 2007.12.13 09:45:00 - [23]
 

Yes, we are finalizing a patch atm and will be rolling it out soo (tm), expect official announcement today or tomorrow with dates and times.

Evhun
Posted - 2007.12.13 13:45:00 - [24]
 

That's excellent news! Thanks, Lingorn.

John Caldwell
Caldari
Balance of Judgment
Posted - 2007.12.13 18:25:00 - [25]
 

Will this patch cover the issues assosiated with the X3100 macbook? IE, escape menu causes a crash, weird graphical bugs causes a crash, loading certain portraits causes a crash...

Darahk J'olonar
Gallente
Trans Eve Organization
Posted - 2007.12.13 19:41:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: CCP Lingorm
Yes, we are finalizing a patch atm and will be rolling it out soo (tm), expect official announcement today or tomorrow with dates and times.



I posted in the linux forum as well but will this patch also cover the linux client? Hopefully, maybe?

Lauredris Maru
Amarr
Lyrix Industries
Posted - 2007.12.13 22:33:00 - [27]
 

I too am horribly disappointed with the EVE Mac client. I think as Mac users we may be a bit spoiled and expect things to work flawlessly most of the time -- from what I gather in the Windows forum, the EVE client has its problems over there (including regular crashes). So we may want to keep that in mind -- the Mac may not be unfairly discriminated against... it might just be unstable all across the board. (GAH! Oh for pete's sake... EVE just crashed again... seriously... LOL... that was after about 15 minutes on my MacBook Pro).

Anyhow, for those of you thinking of installing Windows in BootCamp to play, here's my input. I had XP installed for business use (do not install Vista -- had it, downgraded, Vista will gobble 20GB of hard disk space whereas XP gets by on 5GB... and as most people will tell you, there is nothing in Vista that you want). My opinions, relative to the Mac version:

1. Trinity is pretty, but it makes absolutely no difference in gameplay. Don't do it for Trinity.
2. It is more stable, but it does crash. Rather than once every few hours, I'd say it crashes once a day or less.
3. Using Windows is really a pain. I can't get anything else done, so I need my EVE Mac client to work anyhow -- I like to keep it in the background, chat, manage training, etc.
4. If you are frustrated by the frequent crashes or into PvP, then yes, you probably would benefit from an XP installation -- a crash in the middle of PvP would be unfortunate. :-(
5. If you have been thinking of trying to run EVE in Parallels or VMware Fusion, don't bother. It doesn't work. (It comes close in Fusion, but is nevertheless still quite unplayable).

As for my own experiences:

I'm still having the whole host of Mac client problems, including:

1. Very frequent crashes, probably averaging once every hour or so. This is the worst end of it -- if CCP could fix the locking/crashing problems, I'd be willing to live with the rest... begrudgingly.
2. Lots of graphics issues, including the starmap being unusable, fittings window being hard to read, bizarre and random texture problems, window update failures, partial and complete game freezes, and timing problems. Just to name a few.
3. FREQUENT loss of all preferences and settings, which is a real pain in the arse to configure again (e.g.: graphics, resolution, channels, passwords... you name it all gone).

(Shoot. There it goes again. Seems to be a bit crash-happy today.)

Overall, I'd say this first Mac EVE client (I do have the latest build) is an alpha release. Shame on CCP for using us as alpha testers. You don't do that to paying customers, eh?

As it is, I agree with those that say it's unplayable. At least, totally unreliable. I'll stick it out long enough to see if the coming patch solves the problems... but only being able to play in XP -- not a great option, in my book.

Baron Erique
Paxton Industries
Paxton Federation
Posted - 2007.12.13 22:45:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Lauredris Maru
3. FREQUENT loss of all preferences and settings, which is a real pain in the arse to configure again (e.g.: graphics, resolution, channels, passwords... you name it all gone).


I wound up just making a little Automator app that sits on my Desktop to handle this. Every time I quit (cleanly) I just hit it and it backs up the relevant settings files in ~/Library/Preferences/EVE Online Preferences. If, after a crash, I find my settings got hosed, I just hit another Automator app that copies the files from the backup to the prefs folder.

CCP Lingorm


C C P
Posted - 2007.12.14 10:21:00 - [29]
 

We are working hard with TransGaming to get the stability issues sorted. And there is a new patch coming soon that has a number of these fixes in. More details today hopefully.


Gner Dechast
Flashman Services
Posted - 2007.12.17 02:02:00 - [30]
 

While not a Mac user, I am observing these threads in Mac and Linux forums with keen interest.

While not due for couple of years even, I will be among the non-windows people as well eventually - Vista is just that obscene.

During the still usable period of my XP machine, I need to have a clear picture where to move then, and it should be the same direction for both my work and leisure.

I find this mac forum especially intriguing, giving me more understanding what mac reality really is than I have ever really understood before.

I hope both clients eventually succeed and are considered well worth long term commitment.


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