open All Channels
seplocked EVE Information Portal
blankseplocked Third Economy Blog by Dr.EyjoG
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5

Author Topic

Elad Fredon
Posted - 2007.12.07 10:42:00 - [91]
 

About fiscality in corporations :
In my corporation, we are experiencing an interesting issue about fiscality.
We used to have a 25% tax. We decided to change this to 5%. In fact, bounty are not the entire income of players. Some are trading, other are mining. Those income are not taxed, which was judged unfair.
We decided to practive a volunteer and monthly contribution, which is publicated on a special division on our corporation wallet. The idea is that every one is contributing to the financial corporate effort on proportion of their total income.
To my mind, the fiscal system in a corporation depends on the economic goals of the corporation, and the way they decide de build social links. This mean that the economic rationality is not the only logic working on this decision, but also politics and social.
As a proof, the debate we had before this new fiscal system was activated was more about equality, equity and justice than economic performance (maybe because we LOVE to speak ?)

Berand
The Scope
Posted - 2007.12.07 15:24:00 - [92]
 

It would be great if corporations had a way to more fairly tax everyone. The current tax system puts all the burden on ratters, and misses tons of income from the people who make the most. Furthermore, the ratters are probably also your PvP people, so it makes even less sense to lay the majority of the tax burden on them, when you would rather have them out fighting. So any corp that has that 100% tax rate we're talking about isn't actually taxing 100% of their members income - it's just providing a huge disincentive to rat.

It doesn't seem like it would be hard to offer different tax structure systems. You could set up different income taxes - one for bounties, one for market transactions and maybe one for contract transactions, then have a tax window in the corporate tab where you can set a different rate for each. Along with that, provide an option to do a flat or percentage tax at the beginning of every month. Then all the members would automatically be taxed one time each month. Maybe include a system for exclusions or varying levels, so a corporation could tax its POS managers the least or not at all and its brand new members the most. It would add way more flexibility to corporate income, and be more convenient for both directors and members.

Calvin Firenze
Minmatar
Caeli Veredictum
Posted - 2007.12.07 17:20:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Bossman
A lot of the comments about NPC corps seem to reflect how players in PC corporations see their use but i think it seriously underestimates the social dimension to NPC corp life. A player noted how much fun was to be had not being held to any timetable but your own, its that freedom i believe to be NPC life's most attractive feature and why so many experienced players have chosen it.


This.

I consider myself more "average" than experienced, with 16mil sp atm. I won't start an argument about semantics, but the thing that keeps tugging at me is the thought that "I log in only once a week sometimes because of my work schedule, and I wouldn't mind just hanging out and doing whatever for the hour or two that I do get to play." On the other side of the coin, I don't particularly want to leave my corp and my friends. They happen to be pretty stand up guys, never mind that flashy red on your overview...YARRRR!!

I suppose that avoiding wars would be nice, I actually dropped my industrial alt into an npc corp for awhile for just that reason because I tend to lock some veld(yarr) or ice, hit the lasers and go do something for a couple minutes or watch a movie while I'm mining. I haven't lost any hulks yet.

/me knocks on wood

SiJira
Posted - 2007.12.07 19:49:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Berand
It would be great if corporations had a way to more fairly tax everyone. The current tax system puts all the burden on ratters, and misses tons of income from the people who make the most. Furthermore, the ratters are probably also your PvP people, so it makes even less sense to lay the majority of the tax burden on them, when you would rather have them out fighting. So any corp that has that 100% tax rate we're talking about isn't actually taxing 100% of their members income - it's just providing a huge disincentive to rat.



any good corp gets all their members to do corp wide ratting-missioning and looting and salvaging together or a mining op

there are lots of corps with no tax so stop whining about a mechanic that works perfectly

if there was a tax on trading it would make no sense at all and everyone and their mom would give all their possessions to a trading alt

your opinion is valid but the facts it stated are incorrect and you seem to rat only

you have no idea about contracts and trading
if your corp taxes you too much get into a corp that will not tax you

Alteris Domond
Posted - 2007.12.07 19:49:00 - [95]
 

After reading porsts, I really want to add to my point that we need some raw data. That way we can interpret it and share. Now this does not need to name names. It could be as simple as corp #1235 has 3 members. member #1 has 12mil sp(rounded) and has been there for 13 months(to avoid exacts) this way that we could see less than we alrdy could, but it would give us the abilty to make connections and inferences.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2007.12.08 12:15:00 - [96]
 

1) Why would an experienced pilot be in a NPC corp?
2) Discussion on the difference in management of corps with 10% tax vs. 100%, and is there a difference in their success?
_______

First of all, thanks for the devblog, it's always nice to have more data...

Second, some of the data is worthless. Figure 2A especially is worthless because the statistics takes into account "dummy" "< 2mil SP" characters.
I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories, but if you showed the data on the 36,000 2mil+ SP characters, you'd see hulks and mackinaws in the top, thus revealing the real extent of macro-mining operations. [Side note: a future dev blog on the "positive" impact of macroers? how their disappearance would force half the eve players into mining ships because of the plumetting mineral supply?].

To answer the question, the reasons for an experienced player to be in a NPC corp are the following:
- Transitional:
-- Some players end up in NPC corps as part of a transition to a new corp.
-- Some players take breaks from player corps that are wardecced and enjoy the time to run missions, mine, etc.
These players have been in a PC corp in the past, a fact relatively easy to verify.


- Vocational:
-- Some players genuinely like the peace offered by NPC corps. Among these you're most likely to find mission running and exploration alts (cross reference with IP address login at a given time?). The few "real people" I've met in space in NPC corps fall into this category and all of them are alts.
-- Macro miners. I'd think that several thousands (if not tens of thousands) of these experienced players in NPC corps are macrominers (or macrohaulers).

I can't provide any meaningful information as to the importance of tax rate, never having been in a 100% tax corp.

Berand
The Scope
Posted - 2007.12.08 15:23:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: SiJira

any good corp gets all their members to do corp wide ratting-missioning and looting and salvaging together or a mining op

there are lots of corps with no tax so stop whining about a mechanic that works perfectly

if there was a tax on trading it would make no sense at all and everyone and their mom would give all their possessions to a trading alt

your opinion is valid but the facts it stated are incorrect and you seem to rat only

you have no idea about contracts and trading
if your corp taxes you too much get into a corp that will not tax you


Well that was rude, thanks.

You're wrong, not every good corp does corp-wide ratting and looting. In fact I've been in 8 corporations over the last 3.5 years, and have never once had a mandatory corp ratting session. There are also not lots of corps with no tax; while there certainly may be some, most active corps have a need for an income source. A tax on trading would make as much sense as a tax on bounties. Giving items to a trading alt is no more a problem than someone giving all their ratting duties to a ratting alt. Both would require a skilled-up alt for maximum effect, and both would make you a pretty crappy corp member. The facts of my statement are not incorrect. I do have an idea about contracts and trading. And I'm in an NPC corp at the moment, so my corp doesn't tax me at all. Anything else I missed rebutting?

Oh, here's the definition of whining, which I was not doing: to snivel or complain in a peevish, self-pitying way

And here's the definition of flaming, which you were doing: to insult or criticize angrily in an electronic message

My point wasn't that these various forms of taxation are the best way and everyone should do it. My point was that it would make for great options for CEOs to have.

Captain Schmungles
Caldari
Freelancing Corp
Confederation of Independent Corporations
Posted - 2007.12.08 16:41:00 - [98]
 

Great blog. Most of the previous posts have explained why players would choose to remain in NPC corps. Of course, there are some player corps that aim to give their members the same level of freedom (like the corp i'm in).

As far as the tax rate, there is no difference in success. Freelancing had, for a very long time, a 0% tax and that did not limit our ability to do things as a corp. Now we have a 1% tax, and it still does not limit our ability to grow as a corp. What it really comes down to is who you let into your corp. A corp of 5 people can be far more successful than a corp of 20 people if those 5 members work well together. Corps can often become bloated with dead weight: inactive players, hordes of alts, players that are active but don't really participate in anything.

I would say, though, that Freelancing does prove that the success of a corp has absolutely nothing to do with its tax rate and everything to do with the people that are in it.

Venko Trenulo
Spelunkers
Posted - 2007.12.08 18:32:00 - [99]
 

Question 1: A player I know who likes economic PvP rather than pew-pewing ships is still in the noob corp after over 2 years, to avoid wardecs while flying a freighter around with all the minerals to support an enormous 1-person economic empire, producing goods with nearly all the T1 BPO's. This is a main character who does occasional missions for standings and mining for minerals to support the production operation, and who has never left high sec.

One jangly note in the blog: at the end of the paragraph on outposts is this:
Quote:
We see that there is relatively low number of corporations that own and operate outposts in 0.0 space. These numbers confirm the general knowledge of all EVE pilots zero-zero is the place for the elite pilots and corp managers, the best of the best.

I don't see how these numbers confirm anything of the sort. Granted, 0.0 is the place for outposts because, as you say, they can't be built anyplace else. Does outpost management require or define the best of the best?

Interesting blog -- thanks! Is this the quarterly report, or is that another document that's on its way?

Captain Schmungles
Caldari
Freelancing Corp
Confederation of Independent Corporations
Posted - 2007.12.09 03:03:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Venko Trenulo

I don't see how these numbers confirm anything of the sort. Granted, 0.0 is the place for outposts because, as you say, they can't be built anyplace else. Does outpost management require or define the best of the best?



Managing outposts in 0.0 requires a highly organized corp/alliance. Here are just some of the things 0.0 outposts require:

1. You have to claim space by taking it from someone else, and therefore you require a group of pilots who can keep other people from taking your system.

2. You have to get the parts of the outpost to your system from empire, so you need people who can haul that kind of stuff safely.

3. You have to be able to fuel your outpost once it's anchored, so you need people to:
a) Mine ice
b) either construct reaction silos to supply other compounds or haul other needed supplies to your outpost from empire.

Those three things alone require a well-managed, well-funded, highly organized corp. A corp that is a casual lets-go-churn-missions thing is not going to be able to anchor outposts in 0.0. You don't need the "best" pilots, you do need the right people and the right management.

Sharkishi
Posted - 2007.12.09 07:23:00 - [101]
 

1 of the reasons for 100% corps is because CCP has stolen the Isk from a Player and taken them into a negative balance on there wallet so they have to creat a small corp with 100% tax to continue to play the game.


Tariel Nyss
Posted - 2007.12.09 15:13:00 - [102]
 

As an experienced pilot in an NPC corp, I feel I should chime in on question 1.

First off, my NPC corp character is my main, not an alt. I've never flown a mining barge or a hauler better than T1.

My main reasons for staying in an NPC corporation are as follows:

1. I have the freedom to go anywhere in a very large universe, and do almost anything. I like having the leeway to run missions one day, do manufacturing the next, and pick a fight with a player pirate the day after that.

Serious player corps tend to restrict what you can do. ("We're a mining corp. You better be supporting our mining or you don't belong here.") There's no room for a player who likes to do a variety of things.

Casual player corps tend to have players that fly all over the place, doing what they will. That's not much different from being in an NPC corp; you're soloing anyway.

2. There's more people to talk to. When I logged off earlier, there were around 140 people in my NPC corp's chat channel.

3. I don't have to worry about spontaneous wardecs. I once sat in my corp's headquarters for 12 hours because the system was heavily camped. That was a very boring screen to watch. My very first corp actually disbanded because of wardecs, and they never left high sec or attacked anyone.

Little Fistter
Caldari
Ordo Rosa Crux Templaris
Posted - 2007.12.09 16:47:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Little Fistter on 09/12/2007 16:58:15
Edited by: Little Fistter on 09/12/2007 16:54:48
OUCH!Question

Is everyone in Iceland snow blind??? Trying to read the White on Yellow is terrible - almost as bad as all them dam bright clouds in the game.

Look, dark on light, OK, light on dark, not too bad, but light on light sucks!

And turn down those stinking nebulas too! I have lost a lot of ships in the great pixel-hunt trying to click on the whack-a-mole of white on light.

Who does your usability testing, anyway, the Marquis De' Sade? Twisted Evil

Oh that's right, "What is usability testing?"

Utterly incompetent or utterly uncaring? Sucks either way.Exclamation

Please use color to good effect!

Suggestion: Idea

Skaz
Minmatar
Skazmanian Industries
Posted - 2007.12.10 07:25:00 - [104]
 

Interesting blog I'm a bit late to see read it but if I'm to add my 2 ISK to this discussion it's why experienced players stay in a NPC corp, I've stayed in PTS because of the chat, fun people, always fun to help the new people and last but not least peace and quiet plus the perceived slavery that some corps offer. Another reason is that after being in the Newbie corp for 4.5 years people inevitably think I'm an alt and a spy :) So breaking out isn't easy either. EVE is about trust and distrust :)

But then again it offers freedom to do whatever you want to do that day and even doing nothing. I wouldn't offer a corp my services since I'm not always willing to play. this keeps the game casual and interesting in the long term.

Terraisa Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.11 00:52:00 - [105]
 

A very good read but please, please make the text larger and choose a different color scheme for the boxes!

I had to laugh at the Bestower's rank amongst NPC vessels. The macroers are coming and going in those constantly in minmitar lowsec Smile

Sorela
Gallente
Posted - 2007.12.11 07:15:00 - [106]
 

I think the important question to ask is: Why would an experienced PvE pilot be in a PC corp?

Really the answer is there isn't much of a reason for a huge chunk of people right? If there was a reason to be in a corp in empire then that chunk of people who are avoiding war decs would still have their alts secretly in PvE player corps.

Cerwyn Taraman
Minmatar
Phoenix Tech Industries
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
Posted - 2007.12.11 15:49:00 - [107]
 

Great blog, but please change the colors! It is extremely hard to read, much less avoid going blind with the color scheme you chose!

Berand
The Scope
Posted - 2007.12.11 18:07:00 - [108]
 

It would be interesting to see a statistic showing the frequency and/or duration of logins for the average player in an NPC corp vs the average player in a PC corp.

While it's clear that some people join NPC corps because they like it the best, I would bet a larger percentage of NPC corp members are infrequent or dormant players. Anyway, that statistic might help shed some light on what types of pilots are in different corp types.

Kalda Centauri
Gallente
Reckoning.
Posted - 2007.12.11 18:54:00 - [109]
 

Nice dev blog =).

I know it's a little off topic, but I was wondering if on the next one we could see some statistics regaurding insurance, such as sec rating and overall insurance payouts for that sec level, average rate of insurance owned on the average ship, the precentage of pilots who get podded shortly after an insurance payout, ect..

Kedryn Caitin
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2007.12.12 15:22:00 - [110]
 

I have 2 accounts, both at 20+ million SP and neither have been in a player corp. To be a worthwhile corpmate, and usually to conform to most corp requirements, requires me to put in a lot more time than I can invest in a game. Even when I was playing a ton of hours a day when I started Eve, those are my hours and I want to use them as best fits my needs in my pursuit of enjoyment. That would not include mining, flying CAP or gatekeeping as dictated by someone else.

These days I only log in to change skills. I have been waiting for the big Rev update and am now waiting for all the fixes to the content before I start putting time back in to Eve. This time when I return to play I will only have an hour or two a day, max, once I start back to work in January. And that would be if I devoted all my off time to the game and did nothing else.

At one point I was going to start up a small corp for a few friends and myself. Sadly this is not really viable as you have corps that just watch for new, low population corps to wardec and camp. The corp not getting off the ground turned out a good thing as everyone that was going to form the corp either cancelled subs or are just logging on to train skills so it would have been just me playing before I ended up doing the same. Most have moved on to other games (and I am playing LotRO in my freetime myself).

NPC corps for this player means personal freedom to use my free time as I want without any demands, either overt from corp management\members or from myself for feeling like I am not doing my part for the organization. This is a game, not a second job. Most corps that would be laid back enough to never push ops on you would usually mean you are flying solo most of the time anyway, just like small guilds I have been a part of in other games.

And in Eve, unlike big guilds in other games that just pressure you for raids, if you are not fielding enough active, cooperative players to maintain corp resources in null space then you will lose the hardwork and investment of players that have the time, energy and effort to carve out some space for themselves. I would hate to think I contributed to such a situation because I would rather learn how to code, learn a new language or just read a book or go out for dinner or spend the evening with friends doing something other than playing video games.

NPC corps allow me to support a company I like and a game that I feel is unique without requiring me to play it in ways I would not tolerate and would cause me to leave the game for more casual fields.

Avernus
Gallente
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.12.14 03:42:00 - [111]
 

One other statistic I'd be interested in:
Age of active corporations... I don't know if you have the data to give you a history of folding corporations as well, but to see the average length of rise and decline, as well as how many have reached various milestones in age would be interesting to me.

Fetish Queen
Posted - 2007.12.14 09:05:00 - [112]
 

just for the record i am not a isk farmer LOL


Why would a isk farmer be trading with the corp anyway ? IF i was a isk farmer i would trade all my ore to the refiner who would then sell it or transfer it to the money man ( the one that must hold the isk ) i can bet your last isk that you will never see the "money man" sending you a crap eve-mail in game telling you how wonderfull eve is and how the price of isk has now dropped Rolling Eyes

Fetish Queen
Posted - 2007.12.14 09:06:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Terraisa Nichols
A very good read but please, please make the text larger and choose a different color scheme for the boxes!

I had to laugh at the Bestower's rank amongst NPC vessels. The macroers are coming and going in those constantly in minmitar lowsec Smile



the bessie is the quickest and largest hold of all the tech1 haulers you can get 9000m in that with very little training time


thats why there is so many of them used

patteSatan
freelancers inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.12.14 15:40:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: patteSatan on 14/12/2007 15:46:53
Edited by: patteSatan on 14/12/2007 15:43:58
1.
Why would an experienced pilot be in a NPC corp?



Because PVP is boring as hell, and CCP almost forces playercorps to PVP by their ridicoulous changes in game-mechanics.


And what's this ass-umption? :
==
We see that there is relatively low number of corporations that own and operate outposts in 0.0 space. These numbers confirm the general knowledge of all EVE pilots zero-zero is the place for the elite pilots and corp managers, the best of the best.
==

Almost all 0.0 pilots I've met are in NO WAY elite, they are CCP'S spoiled children, with many alts in NPC-corps that does their ISK-making.


Trayjan
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.12.14 20:23:00 - [115]
 

Edited by: Trayjan on 14/12/2007 20:45:25
Edited by: Trayjan on 14/12/2007 20:44:17
Why would an experienced pilot be in a NPC corp?

i've been in a newbie corp for almost three years. i play very casually -- i am only in game now about one or two hours/week. and generally, i just run a few missions when i do log in.

MMO corps/clans/guilds impose an obligation; they offer benefits but expect something in return. given the short amount of time i play, i'm simply not willing to let others dictate when, where, how and with whom i play.

edit: i don't farm ISK, i don't have any alts, and i've never PVP'd in EVE. although someone did shoot a snowball at me once, so maybe that counts. Wink

EVE is just something that i have on one monitor while i watch tv ,DVDs, surf or chat on the other. i guess it is the virtual equivalent of knitting -- something i can do to that takes very little effort and keeps my hands busy while i am focused on something else. i watch movies while my drones clear mission.

Shotaro Tsukumo
Gallente
Posted - 2007.12.16 11:45:00 - [116]
 

Besides of what was already said before, I have two reasons for being in a newbie corp. One of them is that you can get instant price checks through out the universe. You ask for a price check in different regions and bang, 3 or 4 guys in different regions answer. Or even if you're looking for a given region item price, you usually get it. Of course, this is only valid for big corps.

The other nice thing about them is that there are people there willing to act as "helpdesks". They actively answer to your questions, wonderings and remarks and are very helpful person.

Kivers
KER Industries
Posted - 2007.12.17 11:00:00 - [117]
 

Reason for being in an npc corp:

Log On
No Agenda/ No Commitment/ No Blues
Shoot Stuff
Log Out

Segmentation Fault
Minmatar
Rim Collection RC
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.12.17 16:55:00 - [118]
 

Being honest, I think the value of the econ blogs has dropped significantly, not just in length and depth, but also quality. The usefulness of the statistics is greatly lacking, as are the investigations of the relationships between the numbers. In particular:

1) Please proof read the blog for spelling and grammar. PhD's shouldn't have such mistakes in presentations to the public.
2) Talking about means and medians is meaningless without also including second order statistics (variance/standard deviation).

The overall presentation was lacking depth, particularly second order statistics and analysis. Saying that some corporations employ a 100% tax rate doesn't give any useful information. Which corporations? Where are they headquartered? How many members do they have? Do they run POS's or outposts? Are they in alliances?

On to the questions asked in the blog:

1) Why would an experienced pilot be in a NPC corp?

Many good reasons have been presented already. For me, I would only join an NPC corp to avoid war decs.

2) Discussion on the difference in management of corps with 10% tax vs. 100%, and is there a difference in their success?

See above, but how many of the 100% tax rate corporations have a very low member count? What is the time average of the tax rate of those corporations that have 100% tax (to account for corp operations during snapshots). How many snapshots were taken to obtain this information, and when (weekends make a difference)? How long were those corps at 100% tax rate when examined?

I am sorry, but this blog was rather pitiful, and the questions asked were not properly developed with supporting information. I feel that the econ blogs are important, and I hope to see them continue, but with the understanding that some people value meaningful statistics.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2007.12.18 00:06:00 - [119]
 

Cool blog.

I think the answer to the question 'why do high sp chars stay in npc corps' is multifaceted.

1. Avoid war decs (a no brainer that one).

2. Avoid Corp taxes / sharing - its an 'all your own work' philosophy.

3. Alts - Some 'alt' activities such as cov ops ships have relatively high SP requirements.

4. Alts part II. How many of those high SP NPC players also have a high SP Player Corp character: a fair few Id guess, being utilised as mission runners / miners / industrials etc to 'fuel' the pvp habit.

Corp Taxes are also an interesting topic, I know one avid 'isk farmer' hater suggested that he thought a number of isk farmers were joining corps because the 100% tax rate ensured the 'gang master' the most efficient means of pooling corp assets. That almost certainly applies to normal player corps aswell. As a corp CEO I think the tax rate is an indicator of your desire to invest in the 'team' balanced against the recognition that a team is made up of individuals who want a good % share of their own 'work'.

A low tax rate is also a recruiting incentive as it effectively says 'we give you more than you have to put in!' albeit in a subtle manner. In this regard corp tax rates might be more indictive of aspiration than current success, and one would have to define more closely what a 'succesful' corp is: Im not sure I agree with the appraisal that 0.0 corps = the elite. There are several very succesful (i.e well known) 'corps' that are not 100% 0.0 based, such as Veto, Jericho Fraction, Chribba Wink and so forth.

C.


Windryder
Posted - 2007.12.18 04:01:00 - [120]
 

To be honest, I think the analysis of the demographic hypersurface is overly simplistic and implies the properties being investigated have low linear or non-linear correlation.

I think that the analysis of the distribution of player corporation tax-rate is meaningless without analysing the correlation with player corporation size.

A point worth making, if only because you didn't make it, was that the distribution of skillpoints in characters in NPC corps appears to follow a typical decay pattern. In PC corps it doesn't. This is a significant deviation between the two categories, if only because it immediately shows that pilots in NPC and PC corps are not simply a random population-biased subset of all pilots.

I think that a reverse analysis of ship types would be more meaningful - what is the percentage of each ship type flown in npc vs pc corporations? For example, are freighter pilots more likely to be in NPC corps?

But on the whole its pleasant reading.


Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only