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Geana Tem
Gallente
The Order of Symbolic Measures
Posted - 2007.12.03 13:42:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Anathema Matou
Originally by: Ed Anger
... most third year physics students have a better approach to proper statistics than the person writing these blogs.


Dear gods,
I'm glad I don't have to stand next to you when your ego explodes...

I'd like to get my hands on the raw data and draw my own conclusions as well - but - how fair would that be?
The synthesised and concisely presented info given IS interesting, and hints at areas were we can challenge our assumptions.


Lord Darcy
Posted - 2007.12.03 14:52:00 - [62]
 

Interesting on how most everyone attacks those not interested in PvP

I started this game not much liking pvp in it as i felt it mostly pointless. Now its far better except the pure piracy pvp which is still primarily a overpowered pin head picking on a weaker player in a purely random nature.

Experienced players in npc corps is a symptom of a problum in game machanics not purely the failure of players, all of which pay there $12 a month to play. Many players in eve see missions and mining as a passive game play interfered in by pvp. I know many others dont see it that way but face it its true. Secondly why would the British Prime Minister or U.S. President allow two small foregn countries to have a firefight in front of 10 Downing or the Whitehouse?

There should be a machanic that puts some areas in eve vertually off limits to pvp or allows a player to bow out of pvp in exchange for a structured penalty like no skill training and or perhaps a 30 day obligation to stay in the npc corp.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2007.12.03 16:01:00 - [63]
 

Why would an experienced pilot be in a NPC corp?

To avoid war, though this may not be the primary reason, it is the most obvious. This can probably be split into four motivations. One, a player that has few combat SP so hides in the NPC corp during war. Two, those that always stay there but are part of large alliance logistics (Alts). Thirdly, farmers that stay there so they can continue to cheat in relative safety.

The forth reason can be considered "unemployment", players that are looking for a new corp or are moving between corps. If we look at it as unemployment, then it would have to be considered structural unemployment and is likely consistent over time.

I'm sure there are other reasons, these are my best guess.


Discussion on the difference in management of corps with 10% tax vs. 100%, and is there a difference in their success?

In my experience, this is done for one of two reasons, as a way for the corp to raise money and the rate is not set this high for more than a day or two. And secondly, as a way to keep players in line during operations. Let's face it, camping gates is boring, but if there's a rat to shoot and ISK to be made in a near by belt, players will be tempted to go play with the rat. If tax is 100%, that motivation is reduced.

Surely there can be other reasons as well.

Pedo Fortis
Gallente
Posted - 2007.12.03 16:51:00 - [64]
 

interesting

It would be great to include details on POS deployments for Player Corps.

Corp size vs No POS (small/med/large)
Corp size vs No POS (HiSec/LowSec)

in fact a whole dev blog on POS's

Pedo Fortis

Bahk Naar
Posted - 2007.12.03 17:17:00 - [65]
 

I'm going to speak to point 1: Why would an experienced pilot be in a NPC corp?

Although there could be lots of reasons, the big one has to be WAR. Pilots work very hard in-game (spending lots of RL time and money) to achieve their goals. Wars, as they are now, are too easy and encourage griefing. The current game mechanics devalue the meaning of "WAR". Majority of wars (in high sec) are not WAR... they're a tool for griefers. Eve has to have non-consensual pvp, I do not think it should be taken away. However:
Declaring war has to be meaningful.

There are a LOT of wars that are declared by "griefers", who go around spending a few mil ISK a week to pick on lesser beings. Wars should not be this way... if you want to go pick random fights with people, you should go to low sec. If you want to actually declare war on someone, it needs to be meaningful. It should have a much more significant cost associated with it. That way, when a corp declares war, they mean it. There's something at stake in it for them.

Declaring wars has virtually no cost to it. Past Econ. dev. blogs have spoken to the ever increasing rise in total ISK in the game, yet war fees (base fees) have not changed much at all. So it's effectively becoming less costly over time. Wars should be MUCH more costly. 1 corp declaring war on another corp should cost 50M isk IMO.


On the flip side, a lot of "griefers" will hide behind the NPC corp label to... well... grief. This won't ever go away, but it can be curbed. A simple improvement in this area would be to change the mechanics that make it so easy to grief. I'm talking primarily about can flipping and wreck thieving.

DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2007.12.03 17:22:00 - [66]
 

Reasons for there being hardly a real economy in 0.0

1a. Refining, there are few stations in 0.0.
1b. Refining in player owned outpost requires extreme high skills for perfect refining and then still is often taxed a fixed percentage.
1c. Limited distribution of player owned outposts means having to risk your raw ORE and hauler by transporting it from the origin system to the outpost, costing both time and money because losses will occur.
1d. POS refining is not an option due to the hard yield cap on the best refinery of 75% with maxed skills (35% even with basic refinery).
1e. Refining costs more then in empire/lowsec where you can get perfect refining with 6.7 or higher standings towards the facility you are refining in, where as in 0.0 you'll incurr POS fuel costs, station taxes or station operational costs.
1f. The inefficieny of the refining infrastructure and high skill demands means that players resort into mining the high end minerals only for pure export to empire.
1g. Inefficient refining infrastructure means higher mineral price, higher mineral price means higher build costs, higher build costs means higher sell prices, higher sell prices means competition from import, import means builders stop production, result overpriced poor economy where customers prefer to cross the border for their shopping needs (same as with gasoline in the Netherlands where people living near the border go to Germany to get their gasoline there).
2. Importing from empire is way more price efficient and time efficient even with risks involving loosing freight as a result of the inefficieny of the refining infrastructure. Therefor import is more profitable then production.
3. Consumption of ships and modules is way higher then in empire due the pvp (on a per pilot basis).
4. High demand versus low supply leads to higher prices.
5. Higher prices means it's smarter to restock in empire and head back out till they run out and then rinse repeat.
6. No agents which leads to pilots migrating to empire to earn isk their isk there whilst ratting in 0.0 for immediatte funding.

Steppa
Gallente
Posted - 2007.12.03 21:36:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: DrAtomic
Reasons for there being hardly a real economy in 0.0

1a. Refining, there are few stations in 0.0.
1b. Refining in player owned outpost requires extreme high skills for perfect refining and then still is often taxed a fixed percentage.
1c. Limited distribution of player owned outposts means having to risk your raw ORE and hauler by transporting it from the origin system to the outpost, costing both time and money because losses will occur.
1d. POS refining is not an option due to the hard yield cap on the best refinery of 75% with maxed skills (35% even with basic refinery).
1e. Refining costs more then in empire/lowsec where you can get perfect refining with 6.7 or higher standings towards the facility you are refining in, where as in 0.0 you'll incurr POS fuel costs, station taxes or station operational costs.
1f. The inefficieny of the refining infrastructure and high skill demands means that players resort into mining the high end minerals only for pure export to empire.
1g. Inefficient refining infrastructure means higher mineral price, higher mineral price means higher build costs, higher build costs means higher sell prices, higher sell prices means competition from import, import means builders stop production, result overpriced poor economy where customers prefer to cross the border for their shopping needs (same as with gasoline in the Netherlands where people living near the border go to Germany to get their gasoline there).
2. Importing from empire is way more price efficient and time efficient even with risks involving loosing freight as a result of the inefficieny of the refining infrastructure. Therefor import is more profitable then production.
3. Consumption of ships and modules is way higher then in empire due the pvp (on a per pilot basis).
4. High demand versus low supply leads to higher prices.
5. Higher prices means it's smarter to restock in empire and head back out till they run out and then rinse repeat.
6. No agents which leads to pilots migrating to empire to earn isk their isk there whilst ratting in 0.0 for immediatte funding.


Also add that some alliances have rules against members putting up ships and modules for sale in the local area because that makes them available to potential threats as well. Contracts pretty much ended this, though.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2007.12.03 22:37:00 - [68]
 

Reasons for older players remaining in NPC corps:
  • Immunity to wars- especially for freighter pilots, who are
    • Slow
    • Defenceless when on their own
    • ... and often haul valuable cargo.
    This allows people to operate solo- non-consensual combat often involves an ambush by multiple pilots, and the combat mechanics of EVE overwhelmingly favour a team vs. an individual.
  • Sociability - some NPC corps have hundreds of player members. You get to know a lot of people after a while and it isn't always easy to leave.
  • No corp tax. For full time mission runners, this is ideal.
  • It deters ore thieves and opportunists, who become flagged to the entire NPC corp if they steal something belonging to a member and can be freely attacked by hundreds of people for 15 minutes. I've seen quite a few would-be pirates hunted down mercilessly by School of Applied Knowledge pilots.
  • Finally, some people simply never really feel that they have any reason to leave - mission runners in particular. Player corps offer quite a different experience, and it's not what they're interested in.

syphurous
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2007.12.04 00:51:00 - [69]
 

I stay because of the already said benefits, I also stay because there are times I enjoy helping out newer menmbers. This however is becoming more and more impossible with the influx of people who simply cant read & comprehend. Not to mention the dumbing down of game mechanics so n00bs dont get tripped up.

I'm already looking into moving out and into a corp, I have offers from various corps, in various places 0.0, low, high. They seem more and more tempting with each n00b who simply cant read the mission text & asks the wrong questions unrelated to what it is they need help with.

Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2007.12.04 00:54:00 - [70]
 

I have a friend who was in a corp w/ a 100% tax rate. The corp wasn't communist but used the tax rate to restrict it's members from ratting or running missions and to insure that their only supply of isk came from piracy.

Alteris Domond
Posted - 2007.12.04 02:23:00 - [71]
 

AS speaking to a Bank. It would have to be 100% player owned else the system would be soooooo easy to exploit. All that would happen is isk farmmers taking out 10000bil in loans and selling it ingame. Maybe change it to a system of credit where you can only take out money for purchases and not for nething else. You don't recieve raw isk from it. I've seen that ccp is putting a lot of effort into Ship flying, which is a large part of the game, but I think every1 agrees that the other aspects of the game(corporations for MONEY) should be expanded in future patches. Ii understand the devs are a limited number of people but it really would be nice to fly to statio to station and have skills based on being able to nogatiate a loan for my corp/alliance. It would prolly take a whole new skill set/class.... I wish ccp would call me. I have some great Ideas lol. Or maybe a live dev blog and chat session on where the game should go.

Rudolf Miller
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.12.04 03:14:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Rudolf Miller on 04/12/2007 03:25:15
Why am I in a NPC corp with 20M+ sp?

I have started and ran my own small corps, no great benefit vs the cost.

I (the author not Rudolf) have belonged to other peoples corporations, usely left after something significantly stupid and expensive happened. The benefit did not out weigh the cost.

For me, Eve is very much like real life. If I am going to join a corporation, I want to know the real life qualifications of the executives to run a corporation.

Organizational and management skills are not something you can role play.

Long ago, I had hoped as part of factional warfare CCP would hire a group of professional management people to act as managers for NPC corps. I would put more faith in someone who was trained and paid to do the job.

Niccolado Starwalker
Gallente
Shadow Templars
Posted - 2007.12.04 08:04:00 - [73]
 

Great Blog!

Now to the question of why so many stays in NPC corporation..

Well, many of these love EVE, but are "unable" to appreciate the constant combat going on. They love the PvP in the broad sense, but not PvP in the narrow but more known sense: combat!

Take Deep space. Many would love to stay there, but PvP is absolutely required. No way really to get away from it. While the game offers quite a lot of nice things, it always come down to this. And even if that is a major and popular aspect of the game, it can get very tiredsome over time, particularily if you loose often! So if you want to enjoy the other aspects of EVE a NPC corp is a safe bet. Most of these people would most likely have left the game without this option. They mind their own business, and letting the world take care of its own. And many who are "battleworn" like those highskilled characters have left their player corp for a calm life in a NPC corp.

EVE is great! It offers lots of things which these in the NPC corp appreciate. They dont just want to take part in the combat.

EVE is also compared to Elite Frontier in alikeness, with lot of its great features. They appreciate these features in EVE, but they regret the "imbalance" between these features versus combat PVP is unavailable from deep space to low sec.

Also, deep space corp is often very dictatorial. You do as we tell you to, or we are kicking you out of the corp. It would often be difficult to get the force neccesary for the PvP fleet without these threats, but its tiredsome and not everyone appreciates being "bullied around". Its a game, and its supposed to be fun right??

There are many reasons why these stays in NPC corps. The main reason is they love eve and its features, but want to steer clear of the combat part.


Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
Posted - 2007.12.04 09:10:00 - [74]
 

Interesting the emphasis most posters put on avoiding War Decs. Too much emphasis in my view.

If you are a carebear (like me) then the advantages of joining a Player Corps are generally not as great as those of being in an NPC corps.

In an NPC corp I am very much my own boss and am not obliged to fit around corp rules in terms of playing hours, locations, corp activities, tax, behaviour or maintaining certain standings.

Whilst being in an NPC corp makes it a little harder to make friends join in group activities it certainly doesn’t stop me from doing so if I wish to.

Similarly player corp facilities are more useful to newer players as an established player can usually buy in those services at a reasonable cost or already has the skills/equipment to perform them.

Capt Willard
Battlestars
S E D I T I O N
Posted - 2007.12.04 10:59:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Capt Willard on 04/12/2007 11:31:18
EDIT: Forgot to compliment you guys for another great blog, where's my manners!

In my opinion there are several reasons for players with high skill point levels being in NPC corps;

1.) the player is a pirate/griefer
2.) the player is an isk making / empire alt left in npc corps to avoid corp wars.
3.) the player is one of the many people tired of / uninterested in the high level of dedication and time player run corp life requires in todays Eve and is happy just to run missions etc.
4.) The character is an alt being skilled up for some specific purpose, and is not needed in the players main corp until then (capital alts etc)
5.) The character is one of the many people hardly playing the game, and only logging in for the odd skill change. Keeping their account active only as they have invested so much already, waiting for Eve to change in a way that suits them again, or until enough has been added so that playing it has any kind of novelty.

In summary npc corps are used by high sp players as either a shield to protect from empire wars or a dumping ground for hardly used characters.

Now for tax rates...

I have experienced zero and high level tax in various corps. The general rule seems to be, the higher the tax, the more dedication needed and the better odds of success. Players in 100% tax corps will definately have an 'empire alt' (back to the reasons for high SP in npc corps) to make the isk they need.

No corp could provide all a player needs or wants (we all need the odd bit of faction pimpin), so the 100% tax rate tactic seems like just a way of ensuring all time spent on a character in that corp, will be in a way that will directly benefit the corps interests. I have never seen / heard of a 100% tax corp that frowns apon isk making alts (something impossible to police), they just like to keep these things seperate, and well defined so they don't suffer the "why's there 1000 people online in alliance chat, but only 50 people in the gang" slow death.

Just my 2 cents, well maybe a few bucks looking at the no. of characters

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.12.04 18:09:00 - [76]
 

Quote:
Why would an experienced pilot be in a NPC corp?


Depend on the definition of "experienced pilots". I have some alt in NPC corps with more than 2 millions SP.

Mine are there because:

1) I don't see reasons to put a character that "live " for maybe 40 minutes every day for specific purposes (for me generally running R&D missions AFK) in any corporation;

2) don't see any player run corporation wanting a a character that basically is adding nothing to the corp ;

3) find a bit stupid to train corporation management to those characters and then to create a single man player run corporation;

4) when I am on line and the character is really active I like to give some helpful tip or even some module/item to real new players in the starting corporations. For me it is not really a cost but for a new player receiving a tier 3 frigate, some decent module/skillbook or a +1 implant can be great. Generally I don't like to give isk to people asking for them but a module or ship can be ok.

5) Currently I have no high skill points characters (over 15 millions) in NPC corps and I doubt I will ever have one (I am the CEO of my corp after all) but I can see them being in one of those for reasonably lengths of time while changing corporations. After leaving the old corp I would (generally) not join an new corp immediately but search for the right one (and at the same time I think most corps will question me about my background before accepting me).


Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2007.12.04 19:00:00 - [77]
 

Quote:
Discussion on the difference in management of corps with 10% tax vs. 100%, and is there a difference in their success?


There is no difrence. If you have ever managed play this game in active 0.0 space pvp corp/alliance then you did know why its happence.

Answere is actualy already have been told above but i will say it as well.

The 100% tax set in most cases when alliance/corporation goin in advance (fleets ops and such) they set they tax from normall 5-10% up to 100% to insure that pilots wont stay behind and choise ratting in belts instead of joining ops. Its standart procedure.Razz

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2007.12.04 19:36:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 04/12/2007 21:17:12
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 04/12/2007 19:40:08
Originally by: Bethesda Vortarhiat
Someone else mentioned that making a distinction between NPC corp and player corp is not enough. As a so-called experienced pilot, I technically show up as being in a player corp. However, it serves no other purpose than to grant me all of the benefits of an NPC corp + the ability to operate POSs. It is not a player corp in any social sense. As such, I would recommend that you try rerunning your statistics with various stratifications of player corps by size (<= 5 players or maybe <= 10 players) on the lower end to get an idea of "legitimate" player corp activity vs glorified NPC corps.

While I'm sure there are some very small player corps that do have a legitimate social purpose, anecdotal evidence I've gathered over the years suggests that this is a very small proportion. This is true because what corporations can offer to their members is typically quite proportional to their size; as such there is a tendency toward larger corporations (on the other side, size is typically limited by management overhead/complexity). Very small corporations are, for the most part, an anomaly explained by the mechanics of the game (i.e., you can open a corporation for 1M isk, still avoid wardecs, run missions in peace, 0% tax and put up POSs for a variety of economic pursuits). Not to mention one gets to avoid the tiresome NPC corp chat.

Beth


I, for one, would be happy to open a single man or small corp with some of my alts if I could keep the NPC corporation chat active. There is a good number of people I like to chat with there, but using a player channel with only them on in would not be the same.

If you are of the right humour replying to the 30th questions about Villard Wheel can be fun, if you don't want to chat nothing force you, while in a player corp the normal rules of social life make that almost a must.

------------

On a different topic, I find really distasteful how some people, if the data presented in the blog don't conform to the preconcepts they have about how EVE work, don't try to re-evalutate the preconcepts or suggest how the data can be better analysed but instead label them as "meaningless" and "without worth".

Any data has worth.

Anwylyd Al'Vos
The Knights Templar
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.12.04 20:15:00 - [79]
 

Why would an experienced pilot be in a NPC corp?

If you look at my corp history, you'll see I've only been in npc as a noob (for a month) and during corp transition after a fold (a day)...

My alt on the other hand, has never left the noob corp. I only use it for hauling, and as fail safe if I'm war dec'd to move stuff without worrying about gate camps...

I know a couple folks that run "raven" alts to support their largely pvp mains, they typically run their alt for a day or two and focus on pvp the rest of the time.

10% tax vs. 100%, is there a difference in their success?

That is really a generic question on a broad subject... my current corp runs 5% just to pay for corp offices. I have met pirate corps that run 100% to discourage pve, and manufacturing corps that self fund with profits (0%). The real question "how does the tax rate serve the corp?" not "is one tax rate more successful then another?"

Petter Sandstad
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
Posted - 2007.12.04 20:25:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: CCP Wrangler

  • Discussion on the difference in management of corps with 10% tax vs. 100%, and is there a difference in their success?



The difference between those two aren't that different. The really difference is between the corps that has a tax, and those that does not have a tax. With the corp having no tax, the situation changes entirely.

  1. The corporation cannot depend on this constant supply of isk that requires no thought from the corporation.

  2. Rather the corp has to either ask its members for isk, or think of other methods of earning the corporation an income without taking it from its members.

  3. Ultimately it is the difference between one's ratting-income belonging oneself, or to one's corp. And as most corps that has a tax do, is that they let their members keep their income through the goodwill of the corp. Because it had every right to take 100% if it wanted to.

  4. Some no-tax corps, like TTI, are of the principled opinion that a tax is wrong since it takes the income of its members by force. Most corps, it seems, does not share this opinion.


CCP Dr.EyjoG

Posted - 2007.12.04 20:54:00 - [81]
 

Thank you all for participating in the forum discussion.

First a small correction. The upper half of table 3 was missing but it has been fixed now. The upper part shows the average skill points for all characters, by race and corporation.

Some of you have been asking about a graph which shows the distribution of membership for corporations. We have therefore prepared another graph that shows the size distribution for ALL characters in PLAYER corporations and the average skillpoints for each category of corporations.

Most corporations have fewer than 5 members and the average skills per characters is increasing as the size of corporations is increasing. So pilots gradually move into larger corps as they advance in skills.




Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2007.12.04 21:37:00 - [82]
 

Thanks for the blog. Always look forward to these :)

Originally by: CCP Dr.EyjoG

Some of you have been asking about a graph which shows the distribution of membership for corporations. We have therefore prepared another graph that shows the size distribution for ALL characters in PLAYER corporations and the average skillpoints for each category of corporations.



This is a particularly interesting statistic, as it enables pilots to infer something from the show-info window :)


Solo Player
Posted - 2007.12.04 22:21:00 - [83]
 

Nice Blog! It (and another a while ago) made me actually go and creat this congenial alt you see just to discuss matters such as the one you brought up about multimillion SP characters in NPC corps.

Willard here has listed reasons for this pretty well, so I will quote him gladly:

Originally by: Capt Willard



1.) the player is a pirate/griefer
2.) the player is an isk making / empire alt left in npc corps to avoid corp wars.
3.) the player is one of the many people tired of / uninterested in the high level of dedication and time player run corp life requires in todays Eve and is happy just to run missions etc.
4.) The character is an alt being skilled up for some specific purpose, and is not needed in the players main corp until then (capital alts etc)
5.) The character is one of the many people hardly playing the game, and only logging in for the odd skill change. Keeping their account active only as they have invested so much already, waiting for Eve to change in a way that suits them again, or until enough has been added so that playing it has any kind of novelty.

In summary npc corps are used by high sp players as either a shield to protect from empire wars or a dumping ground for hardly used characters.




My main turned 4 in April and is the char I have played almost exclusively for the past years. Never once have I felt tempted to join a PC corporation for a variety of reasons, Willard's 3 and 5 being the main ones. Elswhere in this thread someone listed the advantages of PC corps, but even after all this time, not one of them really applies to me and my style of playing this game.

For the interested few, here's the lengthy ballad of the solo player. For everyone else, kindly skip to the next post as you are sure to be bored.

Elite being one of the games that stir my fondest memories, I had followed EVE from the earliest previews, and while I nver got around to the beta test, I knew I had the right game sonn after the launch. Sure, combat never did anything for me, but I could well live without it, being offered a breadth of alternate ways to play the game.

I had imagined making my way from planet to planet at the galactic frontier, peddling scarce empire products and exotic artifacts of dubious legality, occasionally offering my services for other endeavours. Instead, in a universe almost exclusively populated by a conglomerates of industrial warmongers and hordes of barbaric spacewarriors on either side of the law, I found myself working the unfathomable markets, turning a nice profit.

Although I would once in a while agree to do some missions for one faceless NPC corp or another, it never felt like participating in the great stories the EVE Chronicles boasted. Poor storytelling, boring NPCs and lackluster presentation in a hard-to-read font didn't help. Even the game world was disappointingly sterile and generic, with every system looking and feeling pretty much the same. Still, what the game lacked, my imagination was happy to fill in and there was more than enough substance beyond that to keep me fascinated.

Corp chat helped. With the arrogant elite, over-ambitious powergamers and socially challenged wanna-be griefers quickly leaving for their own corps, I hung around wide-eyed noobs that were fresh and curious, glad to share rumors, jokes and dreams and every once in a while some small piece of gameplay advice. In fact, I relied on them for the latter as often as the other way around, since I did not play enough to ever find out about all the stuff in the game by myself.

With my character's race never a popular choice, corp chat eventually started to die out - ever more members were just alts and there was no longer the critical mass of participants to keep a discussion going. Acquaintances would always leave for PC corps after a while, and so I remained in an increasingly lonely place. Lacking entertainment, I turned to the drama that is CoAD and the great wars playing

Solo Player
Posted - 2007.12.04 22:22:00 - [84]
 

out on the various game maps. Increasingly, I would only start up the game to belatedly switch skills and renew buy and sell orders.

Nowadays, I hardly ever play more than a couple of hours a week. However, continually dazed by the game's sheer wealth and promise, as well as an undefinable atmosphere, I find myself unable to let go of the game; just following the events on the forums and in dev blogs takes a lot more of my time than playing.

Why don't I join a PC corp, you ask? There are enough to cater to anyone's tastes, you say? This is not the right game for me, you decide? Do as you please. I reamin unconvinced.

As a principle, I reject the concept of safety/power in numbers, as this is always to the advantage of the few and to the loss of the many. I will wear no one's colour but my own.

On a more personal level, I refuse since I simply cannot afford the obligations participation in any undertaking with fellow gamers in an online spaceship game such as this entail. Oh, I might find a corp that is ok with me just logging in whenever I feel like and doing my thing, hanging out with them just when I do.
Alas, I cannot. I am a thoroughly social beast, and simply having made the acquaintance of my corp mates, I cannot help feeling obliged to say hi if they are online, then some small talk, maybe help out a bit and before I know it, a few hours have passed and I have not accomplished what I logged in for in the first place. I have a job, a spouse and two small kids I raise - I simply have no room for futher obligations, so I avoid them wherever I can.

So here I remain, an estranged solo player hanging around, messing with some new feature occasionaly and mostly waiting for the game to change in a way that suits me better. Far from satisfied yet not at all altogether unhappy about EVE's current state either. And ready to fight for my interests and those of other minority playstyles anywhere in the cluster :)

Alteris Domond
Posted - 2007.12.04 22:22:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: CCP Dr.EyjoG
Thank you all for participating in the forum discussion.

First a small correction. The upper half of table 3 was missing but it has been fixed now. The upper part shows the average skill points for all characters, by race and corporation.

Some of you have been asking about a graph which shows the distribution of membership for corporations. We have therefore prepared another graph that shows the size distribution for ALL characters in PLAYER corporations and the average skillpoints for each category of corporations.

Most corporations have fewer than 5 members and the average skills per characters is increasing as the size of corporations is increasing. So pilots gradually move into larger corps as they advance in skills.






1 small issue doc, thanks for the data and the correction!!!!
That larger players ARE going into npc corps, and seeing tat Those large corps usually have 100+ members, it takes 5-10 newer players(2 mil sp or less) to get the largers down to the average.
So what point(time played or sp reached) does the benifit for the 20mil+ players move from being in Player Corps(PC) to NPC corps??
Or maybe a graph showing % of 20mil+ sp chars in NPC corps and in PCs? Is that a reason why larger, Alliance run corps seem to attract the high sp chars or.....

Jezala
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
Posted - 2007.12.05 01:14:00 - [86]
 

In regards to the 100% tax corps, you guys might want to look into the size of those corps and the their general areas of activity (Empire vs 0.0; mission running hubs vs trade hubs; breakdown by 0.0 regions or political presence). This might provide better insight into the mindset of 100% tax corps.

Banlish
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2007.12.06 12:12:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: CCP Dr.EyjoG


Most corporations have fewer than 5 members and the average skills per characters is increasing as the size of corporations is increasing. So pilots gradually move into larger corps as they advance in skills.



Lets say discounting member corps with say 15 or fewer members, would it be possible to get statistics on those other corps?

I'd like to see the 'spread' as well as what the average size is for a corp these days not counting the small 1 to 5 man corps.


Berand
The Scope
Posted - 2007.12.06 14:36:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Berand on 06/12/2007 14:37:56
Quote:
Why would an experienced player be in an NPC corp?


Speaking as a 30 million sp character, I'm in an NPC corp because I've been mostly inactive for a few months due to real life. I plan on getting back to player corps when circumstances change in January. I bet a lot of those experienced players in NPC corps are either doing the same thing I am, or are completely inactive and got booted from their player corp after not logging in for extended periods.

The next biggest group there is probably hauling alts for characters that are in player corps, to take advantage of the lack of wardecs in high sec against someone in an NPC corp.

Quote:
More than 600 corporations have a tax rate of 100%.


The only corps I've been in that ever had 100% tax rate, had it on a temporary basis. Usually when there's a major corp or alliance operation going on, and they want to essentially make participation mandatory. i.e. "You don't have to get in on this op if you don't want to, but you wont be making any money while the rest of us are working." This could be anything from running a complex to fund a corp project, to a big combat op or mining op.

I bet the number of corps that actually have a 100% tax rate all the time are few and generally small. Personally it seems like a bad idea to me. Where's the motivation to go out and rat, if it never directly affects your wallet? But then again I find all forms of making money extremely tedious, and suffer them only to fund more exhilarating activities. I could see a few ways to make it more appealing, like running regular mandatory corp money-making ops. But you'll always be dealing with people who aren't pulling their weight, and instead leech off the system. If you just went with even a 50% tax rate, you could still fund a ton of corp activities, while still creating a monetary reward for individualism. Especially if you couple that with controlling refining taxes in your outposts and mandatory loot collection from ratting wrecks. A mid-sized corp can make a fortune off refining their members junk loot in bulk.

Also, did you filter out inactive corps from your list there? There are probably a ton of 1-man corps where they thought a communist model would be a great idea, only to have it fail completely when no one wanted to join, and now it's just sitting there collecting dust.

Evan McGreggor
Posted - 2007.12.06 20:14:00 - [89]
 

One question that should be asked, and hasn't been asked is.

Why are there for less Amarr characters in EvE than Minmatar, Gallente and Caldari.

Why isn't this question asked? I realize this is an Econ Dev Blog. But I feel this is a very poingnant question.


Bossman
Gallente
Genesis Syndicate
Posted - 2007.12.07 04:02:00 - [90]
 

A lot of the comments about NPC corps seem to reflect how players in PC corporations see their use but i think it seriously underestimates the social dimension to NPC corp life. A player noted how much fun was to be had not being held to any timetable but your own, its that freedom i believe to be NPC life's most attractive feature and why so many experienced players have chosen it.


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