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CCP Wrangler

Posted - 2007.12.01 20:51:00 - [1]

This time the good doctor takes a closer look on corporations. Comparisons between NPC and player run corporations, average skillpoints, popular ships, taxes, outposts and much more.

We would like to remind everyone that the purpose of this is to present information, draw some conclusions and spark a discussion. We are learning as much from these discussions as you are. In this case there are specifically two topics we'd like you to discuss:
  • Why would an experienced pilot be in a NPC corp?

  • Discussion on the difference in management of corps with 10% tax vs. 100%, and is there a difference in their success?
But before you discuss that, read Econ Dev Blog No. 3 - Some statistics on corporations by Dr.EyjoG!

Corp 1 Allstars
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.12.01 20:56:00 - [2]

Edited by: MaxSkywalker on 01/12/2007 20:59:47
Edited by: MaxSkywalker on 01/12/2007 20:58:57
First and edit

I love that dev blog. Kinda ask the questions many of us like answered.

I personally think the idea with 100% tax is great, but to find absolute trust in all members makes this difficult. But when trust is optained I am quite sure that 100%corps is the ideal way.

Also 0.0 elite ? hmmm, so no elite corps in empire just because they dont want to be blobbed to death.

Good blog.

Maverick Ice
Posted - 2007.12.01 21:40:00 - [3]

There are two specific issues we have asked for comments on:

1) Why would an experienced pilot be in a NPC corp?

2) Discussion on the difference in management of corps with 10% tax vs. 100%, and is there a difference in their success?

1) I'd say a large portion of them are there to avoid wars for one of several reasons...1. They are miners or freighter pilots, 2. They are greifers (pirates, ore thieves, scammers or suicide gankers). Probably the least common reason, they don't like being in organized play organizations.

The last group of people, would probably leave the NPC corporations if they were allowed to go "corporation-less". But, that would require a new game mechanic to be able to legally fight individuals (which should probably be looked at anyway).

The second group of people hide behind game mechanics because they are too cowardly to take their chances where people can fight back on more even ground. Those types of people should be kicked out of NPC corporations, much like they would be kicked out of PC corporations.

The first group of people also hide behind game mechanics because there is no way to effectively avoid PvP in this game, but unfortunately, a large portion of them are using this mechanic to support their PvP play elsewhere in the game, and are exploiting this unfair advantage to have nearly risk-free play.

Both the first and second groups of people point towards a need to put a skillpoint limit on player's ability to join/remain in NPC corporations, which would rely on mechanics put into place for the third group of players.

Alastorr Frost
The Wormhole Mafia
Posted - 2007.12.01 21:55:00 - [4]

AWESOME info...This is the stuff I like.

Thank You

Alteris Domond
Posted - 2007.12.01 21:59:00 - [5]

Edited by: Alteris Domond on 01/12/2007 22:00:32
4th post reply great blog.

as for the questions:
I really can only add to wat has been said and say that people that are 15m+ skillpoints seem to fall into categories above, or a third that they are anti social in an eve sense. They use gangs only to their advantage and duck out when some1 asks for help. They chose to lone mission and drift and just rely on themselves. I do believe that if they could they would be "corpless" as was described by some1 earlier.

edit_ changed 3rd to 4th

Arkady Sadik
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.12.01 22:07:00 - [6]

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 01/12/2007 22:09:59
1) Why would an experienced pilot be in a NPC corp?

Three main reasons.

1) To avoid war decs (as said above). These accounts will almost always be alts of someone in a player corp, providing the ISK or other services for the main to sustain their PvP. You might want to compare what ships the experienced pilots in NPC corps and player corps are in. Your statistics only have full numbers. Restrict the ship statistics to all characters with, say, 10m SP or more. Compare the percentage of Ravens and Hulks (mission runners, miners) between NPC corps and player corps. I suspect you will see a major drop there. (The same should be seen with freighters, but the problem here is that freighters are rarely used all the time, so the snapshot technique "what is the pilot flying right now" gives statistically bad data).

2) Transit period. When leaving your corp, you end up in an NPC corp. Some people leave their corp because it died, it sucks, or whatever, and then look for a new one. You might want to split up the "NPC corps" in your stats to "rookie corps" and other NPC corps. For other NPC corps, stats on who has been there for longer than, say, one week or one month would be interesting, i.e. those that apparently don't find new corps, or don't look for new ones.

3) Some people find friends in the rookie corp. I remember with my first char (deleted, this is my second one) having found very good friends in Pator Tech School. Some people like to help, and stick around with a few friends. There is no need to create or join a corp. Very small group, though.

2) Discussion on the difference in management of corps with 10% tax vs. 100%, and is there a difference in their success?

That's basically communism vs. individualism. (Not capitalism; that's unrelated.) 100% tax means the corp owns it all, pays for it all, watches over its kids. 0% tax means everyone is on their own, at most relying on charity for other members of the corp.

How about the number of members in the corps? I suspect many of the 100% corps are single pilot corps (or a handful, probably mainly alts)?

A corp needs its money mainly for communal investments such as offices and POSes. 5% or 10% are apparently quite common values to sustain such typical corp tasks. It would be interesting to see stats on the number of offices and POSes. How many of each is average/median for corps? How is the distribution between 0.0, low-sec and high-sec? How are the numbers when you split up the corps by tax rates and number of members? From the number and sizes of POSes you can calculate weekly cost (using a market average or Jita prices), and office cost is easy to calculate, too. How much do the corps spend? Again, also split up by tax rate and number of members? How about total POS cost per corp, split up by 0.0/low-sec/high-sec?

The whole analysis then needs to take into account alliances. A corp outside of an alliance is a completely different matter when considering spending than a corp in an alliance. It's quite possible that some corps spending a lot of money for POSes get that money from alliance, and is basically the "POS caretaker corp" for the alliance.

Illudium Space Products
Posted - 2007.12.01 22:07:00 - [7]

One of the areas to look at with those high SP characters in NPC corps is to see how long they stay there. If you look at the employment histories of many older players you notice that they have times in NPC corps along the way between other player corps. There's two reasons for this: character sales/transfers require that you be in a NPC corp to do so, and players transfering between corps sometimes end up with a very small amount of time from when they've resigned form their old corp to the new corp (sometimes a matter or hours or less).

It would be an interesting analysis to take this work and go one step further - length of time players spend in corporations. This could lead to insight into why the there may be so many old chars in NPC corps - how much of those are there purely transitionally. It would also give an idea of how players migrate around the eve universe. Do older players tend to favour staying in one corp, or move around, for example.

Stellar Vix
State War Academy
Posted - 2007.12.01 22:09:00 - [8]

I truely do not like the environment most coperations provide, also i like being able to socialize and teach new players the ropes in the npc corp chat.

Alteris Domond
Posted - 2007.12.01 22:21:00 - [9]

Edited by: Alteris Domond on 01/12/2007 22:22:47
Originally by: Stellar Vix
I truely do not like the environment most coperations provide, also i like being able to socialize and teach new players the ropes in the npc corp chat.

Thank you perfect example. This player lieks 1 thing and sticks to it. And I applaude them for it. Stellar chose that path and reflects it with their choices. Kudos mate.

building on suggestions, could there be a source where we could get raw data and deliberate on it? Say links to numbers and statistic the good Doc uses and have us able to use them.

Deep Space Ventures
Posted - 2007.12.01 22:32:00 - [10]

First table - "NCP" should be "NPC"

Argenton Sayvers
Posted - 2007.12.01 22:43:00 - [11]

Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 01/12/2007 23:15:35
I am actually suprised at the amount of people in corporations. Maybe people are a lot more irrational then i would expect.

Reasons to be in regular* player corps:
Agression mechanics (no CONCORDokken for remote shield transfers ...)
Agressive empire wars
Badge of Honor (MOO, GHSC, etc)
everything else is 0.0 related (standing mechanics etc)

-Uninvited War decs
-Trust - even with the huge hassle of rights / security management, everything that isnt nailed down is basically lost the moment it goes into corp ownership.
(Note: If you can be 100% sure that noone will steal anything, its not a regular corp, but falls in the category below. Alts rarely rob you, and if close RL friends rob you despite agreeing not to, you got worse problems then eve anyway)
-random people have random NPC standings, ruining your corp average that is needed for POS / jumpclones.

Reasons to be in alt / elite corps:
[Everything from regular corps]
Corp hangars and wallet (as close as you can get to merging several alts into one, great for pvp logistics as well)

Most corp disadvantages can be mitigated - alt researchers dont really need to undock etc...
The only real downside is war-decs that threaten (afk) haulers.

Now where does the social aspect come into play? Name a chat channel [corp name] and you have 85% of the social functions of a regular corp. Obviously the security / trust situation allows for "trial-by-fire", but if you want to emulate that, you can just contract over 1b of loot to the Trader instead of giving him access rights.

Most corps use out-of-game resources to organise anyway. Corp forums, Ts/vent, killboards are familiar to everyone. I dont know how widespread other tools are, but i have seen POS managers and loot wholesale tools.

You are part of a group of people not because you are in the corp, but because you have access to the OOG infrastructure (and obviously, because they consider them one of you). Just checking Hardin's corp history will lag you to death, yet he is part of CVA and always has been.

I would suggest to query the number of Achura (or anyone else with mostly science / industry skills) who are in small corps with empire POS to improve conclusions drawn from the data.

* a regular player corp is one that grew organically, with real people that have been met and recruited mostly ingame. The other option are alt corps (POS, science & industry, wardecs, etc) and elite corps (selected trustworthy individuals, RL friends etc). Basically, the distinction is trust.

by the way : 100m ISK that this thread will turn into a PC vs NPC corp whinefest...

Legion of Lost Souls
Posted - 2007.12.01 22:50:00 - [12]

Player Owned Corps (here in referred to as POCs) cannot tax their industrial counterparts except if you own the station. The tax rate should be way more descriptive. It's generic representation in the game would indicate that it is a unilateral tax across all transactions. It should either be corrected to be a unilateral tax across all professions or the description about corp tax should be more adequately described.

There are several reasons to be in an NPC corp when you have amassed a large amount of skill points. Most all of them are a manipulative tactic or an abuse of a game mechanic. Those rationals include sweatshop macros to avoid a war declaration, freighter pilots doing large alliance logistics in the safety of an NPC corp. There's also those social outcasts that don't like a team environment and prefer to horde their mission isk and avoid 1 and 2% tax rates.

I know of several 100% tax rate corps and they serve as a dummy fallout corp. The tax rate is variable and serves as a notice for members to return to the parent corp after the threat has passed. While the dummy corp is active the tax rate is far less. The other method is a communal corp where all gains are shared across the corp.

These corps are very rare as it only takes one ass****inghat to abuse trust and steal not only the assets of the corp but of every member in that corp as well. I think we'd see more of these corps if CCP would give us better tools to persecute, shame and exact revenge on those that steal. Leave it as viable concept, but give us the tools to know who it is, where they are and the rights to go kill them repeatedly. Major corp theft has little risk or consequence in a meta game environment. Give us a way to socially humiliate thieves. Risk Vs. Reward doesn't exist in this area of the game and it needs to be fixed or we need GM's to start tracking these thieves.

Maverick Ice
Posted - 2007.12.01 23:11:00 - [13]

You could just move experienced pilots (and pilots of players that have experienced pilots in PC corps, to prevent the nearly risk-free resource gathering they have now) into non-rookie NPC corps, and allow PC corps to war-dec them. This protects the truly new players, who should be seeking player corps anyway, and eliminates the wreckless abandon that alt-warfare and griefers in general enjoy.

Posted - 2007.12.01 23:36:00 - [14]

Interestng blog, but next time, please do not use white on orange for figures, it really hurts the eyes.

Ishina Fel
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.12.01 23:47:00 - [15]

A word on coporations owning outposts in 0.0:

A general practice in alliances these days is to use a holding corporation for managing the outposts. These holding corporations have very few members, usually all of them alts of the alliance leadership. This makes it a lot easier to manage your outpost settings, because the leadership can simply log onto their management alt and have immediate control of all settings in all outposts their alliance controls. Also, it minimizes the risk of thieves, spies and sabotage agents, because no normal player gets to join a holding corp, and thus no normal player has access to the tax storage hangars, office revenues and similar things.

Thus, it is not unusual to see an alliance with, say, 10 regular member corporations controlling 5 outposts, but only one corporation (the 11th, the holding corp) actually owns the outposts. Additionally, this alliance may have resident corporations or rent-paying allied alliances living in their space. Not all alliances allow them, but a good number does, because they brign additional ISK and refining tax into the coffers and can help with defense. As such, there are even more corporations using the outposts in their region of space. Together with the actual alliance, there could be 30 or more corps living around two or three outposts... while these outposts are still only being owned by one single holding corporation.

Empire marketslave
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2007.12.01 23:52:00 - [16]

The 100% tax is usally done in PvP corps to ensPure that people dont do anything other than PvP

and if you are ratting or mission running you will not get any isk out of it

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2007.12.01 23:53:00 - [17]

To the best of my knowledge, the vast majority of transactions in the game are completely unaffected by corp taxes. People can sell things on the market, create contracts and trade isk/items directly with other characters in the same station (or, if necessary, via containers/structures anchored in space), and the corp will never see a penny of it.

It is only when new isk is entering the game (via bounties on NPC pirates) or from mission rewards that corp taxes are levied.

From what I've heard, corps that operate with a 100% tax do so in order to encourage their members to work together rather than gather isk in a solitary, selfish manner. Such corps are more likely to be communist in structure - whenever someone needs a ship or a piece of equipment, the corp is likely to provide it on request, free of charge (usually at the discretion of one of a small number of senior members with corp hangar access).

Corps with a lower tax rate are likely to be larger and possibly less closely-knit, with taxes used to fund large projects (such as maintaining sovereignty).

In between, there are shell corps set up within alliances into which people lure unwitting isk farmers by promising them a reward if they join. Then, the directors of the corp grant their victims roles once every 24 hours, trapping them (you can't leave a corp if your roles have changed within the last 24 hours). The corp tax is then raised to a punitive, but not crippling, level (maybe 25-40%), so that it isn't worthwhile for the farmer to train up a new character. Effectively, the isk farmer becomes a slave of the owners of the shell corp, and cannot appeal to CCP for fear of being banned.

Night Doc
Posted - 2007.12.02 01:05:00 - [18]

Originally by: Hawidere
Interestng blog, but next time, please do not use white on orange for figures, it really hurts the eyes.

I insist. Please, avoid that color.

Majesta Empire
Posted - 2007.12.02 01:07:00 - [19]

I always find these blogs intresting. I really have no idea how to answer Wrangler's questions.

And a small thing I know but I'm really not a fan of the orange colour used to right the numbers on.

Excellent read as always though.


No Trademark
Phoenix Virtue
Posted - 2007.12.02 02:02:00 - [20]

I'm sorry to ask this, due to not having done statistics in a long time...but isn't the diagram labeled "Histogram"...not a histgoram? Histograms have contiguous bars, and the bars are meant to be varying widths to better represent data - rather than with bars seperated by free air and all a uniform width.

Aside from that, vaguely interesting stuff but not really that useful in any fashion.

Reaper Industries
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.12.02 02:03:00 - [21]

First of all, thanks to Dr.EyjoG for another interesting econ dev blog! I think this was a nice choice of topic. Now, as for those pesky people with tens of millions of skillpoints in NPC corporations:

In Eve, one needs go no further than Motsu to see why there are so many highly skilled pilots in State War Acadamy, err, NPC corporations Very Happy. A quick 16au scan from Motsu VII Moon 6 - Caldari Navy Logistics reveals dozens of Drakes, Ravens, and CNRs. In addition, all the adjacent stargates to Motsu are witness to untold amounts of missileboat loitering. Looking at the pilots in local, you'll find a large number of them are in NPC corporations and have very high standings to Caldari Navy. All of these facts are corroborated by your findings in the dev blogs: the Raven's popularity in NPC corporations especially.

In a phrase, people use alts to run missions. I am sure there are thousands of players doing it. The large portion of Eve players whose primary interest is PvP need to make isk to maintain their pew pew habit somehow. Frequently, such pilots are involved in war decs which makes missioning risky or are deep in 0.0 space and do not have access to agents. Those who do not want to rat are at a loss. The most simple and safest solution is simply to utilize the power of two. I do it. Corpmates throughout my history have done it. Friends do it, and foes do it (or they learn the hard way).

Players simply want the rewards of missioning without the risk of surprise PVP. If you ask me, we can safely extrapolate from this that the risk vs reward ratio of high sec mission running vs. lowsec and nullsec mission running and ratting needs attention. It is simply too easy to make a killing in high sec.

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.12.02 04:18:00 - [22]

1: Reasons for an experienced player to be in an NPC corp.

> To Avoid wardecs that may impact their gameplay.

> Alts who wish to avoid wardecs (trade alts/hauler alts/mission runner alts) or benefit from anonymity (scout alts/cyno alts/etc)

2: Reasons for 100% Tax rates

> Communist corps ,a rarity I've never experienced.

> Holding/Dummy corps.

> Corp-Ops, some corps set their tax rate to 100% during a corp-op or ISK drive.

I'd be interested in hearing about how well some of the true 100% tax rate corps do. However I believe that the actual "communinst" corps make up only a very small fraction of the six hundred 100% tax rate corps.

Posted - 2007.12.02 04:46:00 - [23]

Sometimes 0.0 Corps in the grip of failure cascade set taxes to 100% to fund broken corp programs like capital reimbursement funds where the corp uses all of it's resources to repay/replace players who lose capitals in fleet fights. This however, never tends to work out well for them though.

Setting Taxes to 100% is one of the fastest ways to drive casual players out of corps.

Devilish Ledoux
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.12.02 06:02:00 - [24]

Originally by: Empire marketslave
The 100% tax is usally done in PvP corps to ensPure that people dont do anything other than PvP

and if you are ratting or mission running you will not get any isk out of it

Right on the nose. Pirate corporations set 100% tax rates often. After all, our primary sources of income (ransoms, loot sales and hijacking) aren't taxed, so why not discourage rampant carebearism?

Cey Shirii
Posted - 2007.12.02 06:38:00 - [25]

Originally by: CCP Wrangler

  • Why would an experienced pilot be in a NPC corp?

I spent more time in an NPC corp than the average player. And I have to say that it was really fun. There is a constant stream of new corp memebers, and there were many experienced veterans. Many of my corp members were flying battleships, and we frequently got together and did missions and mining.

It was less of a hassle than in a player-corp. We didn't have to refuel starbases, nobody got mad at each other for not making it to corp pvp/mining ops, there really weren't any superiority issues. And we didn't get ganked every day.

Ed Anger
Weekly World News
Derek Knows Us
Posted - 2007.12.02 06:43:00 - [26]

Edited by: Ed Anger on 02/12/2007 06:56:15

im glad that this blog has comparisons without characters below 2m skillpoints, which was one of my main issues with the last blog.

also, i wouldnt just compare npc corps vrs player corps, theres npc corps vrs small empire corps vrs corps in 0.0 alliances, all which are different demographics.

Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2007.12.02 10:26:00 - [27]

I bet you 500 million ISK that at least 50% of the "100% tax" corporations have gibberish or meaningless names, aka farmer corps.

Anathema Matou
Moonmaiden Ltd.
Avateas Blessed
Posted - 2007.12.02 10:29:00 - [28]

Originally by: Ed Anger
im glad that this blog has comparisons without characters below 2m skillpoints, which was one of my main issues with the last blog.

But even so, hardly consistent :-(

Figure 2a is useless in the context, it would have had to be done using the same 2m SP cut - as the author stated himself, dummy characters are irrelevant, and so is the high number of Kestrels flown by them.

Also, there isn't really 45 NPC corps accepting players right now, is there? Per race, there is only the 3 newbie schools and the 3 dumpster corps where people end up after quitting (or getting kicked out of) their corp, which makes for a total of 24. The remainder is most likely GM/ISD and the corps of a few event characters.

To be honest, I am not convinced of the value of the eco-devblogs at all. Not because statistics aren't useful, but because of their (lacking) quality.

The interpretation of `statistics' and the number of blatant errors in them is somewhere between mildly confusing and pretty annoying, I would go as far as to say that, unfortunately, most third year physics students have a better approach to proper statistics than the person writing these blogs. This is what needs to be improved foremost.

Posted - 2007.12.02 10:38:00 - [29]

There is one reason for a skilled player to be in a noob corp and im sure its already been stated in every single post above but I'll state it again.

Noob corp = no war decs.

So whether you are hauling or mission farming, noob corp is the way to go.

I'm sure theres people who just dont care as well, so being in a noob corp is a matter of apathy.

Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.12.02 11:15:00 - [30]

IMHO the reason for being in noob corps are

1) Account suspended and character kicked from player corp.

2) Avoid war decs. Player alts can move freely when main is in war. They can sell stuff without giving away the source (and the paying of corp tax) and they can spy/scout/ship scan.

3) "Griefer" can do their griefing such as scaming, can stealing, empire suicide ganking and other "grief" stuff without fear of war.

4) Players who simply got fed up with corps (and corp tax) and the crap that can happen in corps.

5) Solo players who see the game as pure PVE.

As for tax rates no idea on that one.

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