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Mr Friendly
The Lost and The Damned
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:13:00 - [1]
 

Okay, Trinity needs sm3.0 for the Enhanced version of Trinity graphics.
Unfortunately, many people out there don't have sm3.0 cards.

Question: are the sm3.0 shaders only used for 'shiny bits' overlaid onto the enhanced textures and geometries, or is the 3.0 shader integral to properly showing ALL of the enhanced clients new stuff?

I ask because 'back in the day', there used to be a way to fool the DirectX system into thinking features NOT supported on the card actually were (dx_expose_caps or something like that). In example, I used this feature so I could run the complete 3dMark 2001 benchmark on my Kyro2 (using a faked HW T&L flag).

My thinking is this: if the 'force_3.0_shaders' (whatever it/they are called) allows the enhanced textures/models to be properly displayed w/o making the scene screw up because the various shader effects aren't being shown correctly, Ati x00 and older Nvidia cards could still have some nice textures and models for Eve without *needing* to upgrade straight off.

Thoughts? I'm totally ignorant about how this stuff *actually* works, so I thought I'd ask in case some of you had some bright ideas to help out those less fortunate.

Sky Grunthor
Minmatar
Conflagration.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:19:00 - [2]
 

I hope this type of thing can be done. I like many others use a laptop to play the game. I'm not going to be upgrading for the forseable future either. however I only support sm2.b or something like that. (I'm sure of the sm2 part of that) I can play every single game out there and they all support me. so why is eve going with either your uber or your a duber philosophy with this.

I want the textures... if the lighting is what is causeing the need for the sm3 then screw that. I'll take the "less sophisticated" lighting engine. I just hate seeing these obviousley fuzzy pieces on all those minmatar ships that I fly.

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:20:00 - [3]
 

Dito. Same situation for me. Also looking for a way to see the new textures without using SM3.0.

LUH 3471
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:21:00 - [4]
 

this would be very interesting to know indeed

Theo Samaritan
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:22:00 - [5]
 

the engine is built on SM3. no Sm3 no dice on the new graphics.

getting an sm3 card isnt that hard. a 6600GT is what, 70 now most?

Mattikus
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:24:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Mattikus on 01/12/2007 18:24:41
Damn...people are going nuts over this Trinity crap..."should I upgrade my 10 year old graphics card to get the shiny bits"....YES! Quit living in the dark ages...SM 3.0 cards are next to nothing these days...**** I'll sell you my 6800 GT for $25 if you want a SM3 capable card. Bit the bullet and just upgrade.

I highely doubt you will be able to "fool" the system that your running a SM3 card....

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:25:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Theo Samaritan
the engine is built on SM3. no Sm3 no dice on the new graphics.

getting an sm3 card isnt that hard. a 6600GT is what, 70 now most?

You're missing the point. Many people are running Eve on a laptop. No cheap upgrading there.
I know my system at home will have absolutely no problem with Trinity. But I won't be home for another 4 months. And would like to enjoy the new textures and models if there is a way. As has been said, maybe it's possible without the lighting stuff or something similar.

Mattikus
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:26:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Theo Samaritan
the engine is built on SM3. no Sm3 no dice on the new graphics.

getting an sm3 card isnt that hard. a 6600GT is what, 70 now most?

You're missing the point. Many people are running Eve on a laptop. No cheap upgrading there.
I know my system at home will have absolutely no problem with Trinity. But I won't be home for another 4 months. And would like to enjoy the new textures and models if there is a way. As has been said, maybe it's possible without the lighting stuff or something similar.


Like Theo said....no SM3 card = no awesome graphics. Its as simple as that...

Theo Samaritan
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:27:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Theo Samaritan
the engine is built on SM3. no Sm3 no dice on the new graphics.

getting an sm3 card isnt that hard. a 6600GT is what, 70 now most?

You're missing the point. Many people are running Eve on a laptop. No cheap upgrading there.
I know my system at home will have absolutely no problem with Trinity. But I won't be home for another 4 months. And would like to enjoy the new textures and models if there is a way. As has been said, maybe it's possible without the lighting stuff or something similar.


And the majority of laptops that eve is currently running on would struggle with the new high-poly models, shaders or not. Point?

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:28:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Mattikus
Like Theo said....no SM3 card = no awesome graphics. Its as simple as that...

Well that is exactely what this thread is about. Maybe there is a way. Are you a professional with graphic cards or did you just pull this information from the patch notes?

There have been tricks like this in the past. It's at least worth trying for those of us who cannot easily 'upgrade'.

Theo Samaritan
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:31:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Mattikus
Like Theo said....no SM3 card = no awesome graphics. Its as simple as that...

Well that is exactely what this thread is about. Maybe there is a way. Are you a professional with graphic cards or did you just pull this information from the patch notes?

There have been tricks like this in the past. It's at least worth trying for those of us who cannot easily 'upgrade'.


The problem im worried with is not laptops running the new engine under SM2.b (possible) but the fact that any laptops without an SM3 card will struggle with the poly levels.

Sky Grunthor
Minmatar
Conflagration.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:33:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Theo Samaritan
the engine is built on SM3. no Sm3 no dice on the new graphics.

getting an sm3 card isnt that hard. a 6600GT is what, 70 now most?


I hope your incorrect there. but you may be. I don't really know and I really can't take your word for that. Its kinda of a very broad statement that may not be completely accurate. But my laptop is 2 years old. the video card in it can not be upgraded (radeon x600) and Its the only machine I play games on. I'm not going to spend any money on getting a completely new laptop just to play this game with better graphics. There should be some middle ground. And I would be very doubtfull if eve will support both classic and trinity for years and years. us forced classic peeps will get the shaft very quickly because the "fix" for most whatever is going to be "run it on Trinity"

Mattikus
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:40:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Mattikus on 01/12/2007 18:40:42
Originally by: Sky Grunthor
Originally by: Theo Samaritan
the engine is built on SM3. no Sm3 no dice on the new graphics.

getting an sm3 card isnt that hard. a 6600GT is what, 70 now most?


I hope your incorrect there. but you may be. I don't really know and I really can't take your word for that. Its kinda of a very broad statement that may not be completely accurate. But my laptop is 2 years old. the video card in it can not be upgraded (radeon x600) and Its the only machine I play games on. I'm not going to spend any money on getting a completely new laptop just to play this game with better graphics. There should be some middle ground. And I would be very doubtfull if eve will support both classic and trinity for years and years. us forced classic peeps will get the shaft very quickly because the "fix" for most whatever is going to be "run it on Trinity"


Well **** happens...Like I said...your gonna have to eventually upgrade and bite the bullet. Lots of people were *****ing and whining just like this when Battlefield 2 came out cause their TI440's or whatever Nvidia card it was back then wouldnt run it. LOTS of people were whining and moaning about it cause they were being forced to upgrade for one game...but you know what...they got over it and upgraded.

I HATE how people wanna enjoy the new shiny fancy bling but still wanna live with hardware thats completely outdated and refuse to upgrade. Maybe next time dont buy a laptop to game on and go with a more "upgradeable friendly" desktop....my 2 cents.

Kappas.
Galaxy Punks
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:48:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Kappas. on 01/12/2007 18:48:31
It's not exactly the end of the world, you can still play Eve.

Even the new graphics engine uses SM3 which is about 3 years old now so hardly a brand new thing that caught you by surprise (maybe longer, basing it off release date of GeForce 6600), but then again whatever CCP does there is always going to be people there to complain about it.

Adonis 4174
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:48:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Theo Samaritan
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Mattikus
Like Theo said....no SM3 card = no awesome graphics. Its as simple as that...

Well that is exactely what this thread is about. Maybe there is a way. Are you a professional with graphic cards or did you just pull this information from the patch notes?

There have been tricks like this in the past. It's at least worth trying for those of us who cannot easily 'upgrade'.


The problem im worried with is not laptops running the new engine under SM2.b (possible) but the fact that any laptops without an SM3 card will struggle with the poly levels.


Now I've read this I'm going to try. My laptop is at least three times more powerful than any other computer I possess but can't manage SM3.

I'll let you all know how it works out.

Ed Anger
Weekly World News
Derek Knows Us
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:48:00 - [16]
 

to be honest, the graphics really arent that different, you wont be missing out much on an sm2 system. you can at least be happy that sm2 systems are still suported so you arent forced to upgrade, or be unable to play. good luck finding a workaround though ;)

Sky Grunthor
Minmatar
Conflagration.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:49:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Sky Grunthor on 01/12/2007 18:56:49
Originally by: Mattikus

Well **** happens...Like I said...your gonna have to eventually upgrade and bite the bullet. Lots of people were *****ing and whining just like this when Battlefield 2 came out cause their TI440's or whatever Nvidia card it was back then wouldnt run it. LOTS of people were whining and moaning about it cause they were being forced to upgrade for one game...but you know what...they got over it and upgraded.

I HATE how people wanna enjoy the new shiny fancy bling but still wanna live with hardware thats completely outdated and refuse to upgrade. Maybe next time dont buy a laptop to game on and go with a more "upgradeable friendly" desktop....my 2 cents.


yah.. every 3 weeks (obvious exageration here) a beter card/shader model whatever comes out and now the "new" game has to make use of all that functionality beyond the great majority of consumers and sudennly you "have" to upgrade to do it and now because you have to upgrade to do it all the other new games are justifying using all that functionality that was beyond the great majority of consumers.

Sorry my budget can't afford your mad dash to the cliff of change here on a weekly basis.

(over-exageration intentional)

-edit.

That came off a little harsh as I was rereading it. Yes shader model 3 has been around for 3 years. It probably is in the majority of desktops today. However this problem we are dealing with is in the realm of laptops which are always behind the ball and have their own problems.

Somehow us laptop gamers are continuously left hanging due to the lack of modularity inherent in the laptop itself. However this is further exasberated by the inabilty or unwillingness of game developers to take this paradigm into account.

Yes sm3 has been around for 3 years. No it was not available in laptops at an affordable price 2 years ago. however sm2.b was. I have it. so do others. we are only 1 sm gerenation behind.

Angelik'a
Gallente
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:53:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Sky Grunthor
Originally by: Mattikus

Well **** happens...Like I said...your gonna have to eventually upgrade and bite the bullet. Lots of people were *****ing and whining just like this when Battlefield 2 came out cause their TI440's or whatever Nvidia card it was back then wouldnt run it. LOTS of people were whining and moaning about it cause they were being forced to upgrade for one game...but you know what...they got over it and upgraded.

I HATE how people wanna enjoy the new shiny fancy bling but still wanna live with hardware thats completely outdated and refuse to upgrade. Maybe next time dont buy a laptop to game on and go with a more "upgradeable friendly" desktop....my 2 cents.


yah.. every 3 weeks (obvious exageration here) a beter card/shader model whatever comes out and now the "new" game has to make use of all that functionality beyond the great majority of consumers and sudennly you "have" to upgrade to do it and now because you have to upgrade to do it all the other new games are justifying using all that functionality that was beyond the great majority of consumers.

Sorry my budget can't afford your mad dash to the cliff of change here on a weekly basis.

(over-exageration intentional)


Shader Model 4 isn't out yet and it's been 3 years since shader model 3 came out. I'd hardly call 3 years 3 weeks.

NeoTheo
M'8'S
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:54:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Sky Grunthor
Originally by: Mattikus

Well **** happens...Like I said...your gonna have to eventually upgrade and bite the bullet. Lots of people were *****ing and whining just like this when Battlefield 2 came out cause their TI440's or whatever Nvidia card it was back then wouldnt run it. LOTS of people were whining and moaning about it cause they were being forced to upgrade for one game...but you know what...they got over it and upgraded.

I HATE how people wanna enjoy the new shiny fancy bling but still wanna live with hardware thats completely outdated and refuse to upgrade. Maybe next time dont buy a laptop to game on and go with a more "upgradeable friendly" desktop....my 2 cents.


yah.. every 3 weeks (obvious exageration here) a beter card/shader model whatever comes out and now the "new" game has to make use of all that functionality beyond the great majority of consumers and sudennly you "have" to upgrade to do it and now because you have to upgrade to do it all the other new games are justifying using all that functionality that was beyond the great majority of consumers.

Sorry my budget can't afford your mad dash to the cliff of change here on a weekly basis.

(over-exageration intentional)


i've been playing eve since beta, this is the first time i have been forced to upgrade.

ohh wait i wasnt forced, i bought my card last year, still tho if i had my old card, i would have been forced to upgrade, once in 4 years.

and having said that, i could always play with the old content.

no one is taking the game away from you, 1 technology upgrade in 4 years is not "weekly".

grow up.

torswin
Society Of The Abattoir
Posted - 2007.12.01 18:59:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Sky Grunthor

yah.. every 3 weeks (obvious exageration here) a beter card/shader model whatever comes out and now the "new" game has to make use of all that functionality beyond the great majority of consumers and sudennly you "have" to upgrade to do it and now because you have to upgrade to do it all the other new games are justifying using all that functionality that was beyond the great majority of consumers.

Sorry my budget can't afford your mad dash to the cliff of change here on a weekly basis.

(over-exageration intentional)
We are talking about 3 years old technology, not bleeding edge alpha build.

You will still be able to play the game, just not with the fancy snancy graphics. It has been said lots of times. Sometimes you have to ditch old technology to get ahead in the world. You can't stay at the same spot forever while everything around you changes, if you know what I mean.

If EVE doesn't keep up with other games in forms of technology, I would guess that eventually people will leave in favour of these new games that does.

Sky Grunthor
Minmatar
Conflagration.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2007.12.01 19:02:00 - [21]
 

what about "over-exageration" do be people not understand? Please tell me. If I write an obviously over-exagerated rant and even say twice "exagerated" and "over-exagerated" you all still read literaly. Sheesh.

7shining7one7
Posted - 2007.12.01 19:04:00 - [22]
 

Hi guys

Yeah there's definately ways to fool the directx api. That's how halo 2 got ported to windows xp by some ingenious people, they put dummy method calls into the api and so when they were called they just did nothing, and the game ran on windows xp, (it was a vista oriented, sold on the buy dx10 thing). and actually the funny thing was that it ran with 30% more fps than it did on vista <3

so there's definately a way, i am not sure if turning the advanced options (hdr/shadows) off will do it, or if ccp needs to do something to make this happen.

allthough on the rational side, from ccp's point of view, it's probably not something they want to do. You would also be better off to just run the old graphics instead, that you get the choice to do when trinity launches, and just upgrade to the new graphics when you have a card that can pull it off, rather than try something in between, allthough it surely can be done.

At any rate, if you simply cannot go without the new graphics and refuse to keep running with the old ones, then a card that supports sm3.0 is a 6600gt or above, so it's not a million bucks you gotta invest in. and doing a dx hack like above would probably make some of the new graphics look a bit weird anyways, so you would probably be better off with getting a new card.

so.. to sum it up. Is it possible? Yes.

Is it feasible to do to get a glitched trinity running (where the api calls for shaders end blind, and can potentially produce artifacts)? Not really.

torswin
Society Of The Abattoir
Posted - 2007.12.01 19:05:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Sky Grunthor
what about "over-exageration" do be people not understand? Please tell me. If I write an obviously over-exagerated rant and even say twice "exagerated" and "over-exagerated" you all still read literaly. Sheesh.
I'm just saying it's 3 years old technology we're talking about. And I was just trying to explain why ditching old technology is neccessary to keep up.

Sheesh... Rolling Eyes

Ed Anger
Weekly World News
Derek Knows Us
Posted - 2007.12.01 19:06:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Ed Anger on 01/12/2007 19:08:54
Originally by: 7shining7one7
At any rate, if you simply cannot go without the new graphics and refuse to keep running with the old ones, then a card that supports sm3.0 is a 6600gt or above, so it's not a million bucks you gotta invest in. and doing a dx hack like above would probably make some of the new graphics look a bit weird anyways, so you would probably be better off with getting a new card.


laptop. laptop. laptop. read the whole thead. laptop.

Sky Grunthor
Minmatar
Conflagration.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2007.12.01 19:15:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: torswin
Originally by: Sky Grunthor
what about "over-exageration" do be people not understand? Please tell me. If I write an obviously over-exagerated rant and even say twice "exagerated" and "over-exagerated" you all still read literaly. Sheesh.
I'm just saying it's 3 years old technology we're talking about. And I was just trying to explain why ditching old technology is neccessary to keep up.

Sheesh... Rolling Eyes


appolgies to you torswin... it was the post immediately following that got me rankeled up. where the person said "I woulnd' call 3 years 3 weeks" or something like that. a literal interpretation of an exagerated post there.

Mr Friendly
The Lost and The Damned
Posted - 2007.12.01 19:31:00 - [26]
 

Damn it people, please read the thread before posting! Sheesh! I'm not asking for a cheat or a macro, I'm asking for help to allow people that currently aren't able to run the client without spending a shedload of cash to at least look at the new Eve.

I have dx10 card, so I'm sitting pretty.

My Sisi is patched to the new content, and I think it looks great! It also runs damned nice, given the *much* higher poly counts etc etc etc.

I'd like those that CAN'T upgrade for a bit be able to run *some* of the content without having to choose between getting their kids Xmas gifts and upgrading their computers.

Anyways, I have not yet heard any pros speak; instead I've heard opinions from people that basically said: "just buy X or Y".

Fair enough and thank you for your input.

Now, assume no one can. What then would be your suggestion? Think of it as an interesting problem you'd like to solve.

The other facet of the issue is this: Eve has run off the cpu for so long we have forgotten that even onboard Intel video chipsets are pretty good at fillrate and multitexturing. However, 'modern' game features are usually bottleknecked by pixel and vertex shading. However, IF we can fool Eve into thinking that those 'special' sm3 shaders are present but not rendered to, even lowly onboard 6150 or Intel gma laptop chipsets *should* be able to push enough pixels to at least move stuff around and do basic Eve stuff. At least then, poorer players can enjoy the look of the new Eve even if they can't really 'exploit' it.

Help out the community, guys.

Plutoinum
Mercenaries of Andosia
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2007.12.01 19:36:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Plutoinum on 01/12/2007 19:36:45
Probably the whole material and lighting stuff of the new content is written solely for the new engine and shader model 3.0.
Guess you can't feed that new content in the old rendering path without changing something and if you could get the new engine somehow to run without present shader model 3.0, there would be no proper lighting and materials, I think. So nothing that looks like EVE would appear on the screen. You'd be better off with running the old content.


Angelik'a
Gallente
Posted - 2007.12.01 19:58:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Sky Grunthor
Originally by: torswin
Originally by: Sky Grunthor
what about "over-exageration" do be people not understand? Please tell me. If I write an obviously over-exagerated rant and even say twice "exagerated" and "over-exagerated" you all still read literaly. Sheesh.
I'm just saying it's 3 years old technology we're talking about. And I was just trying to explain why ditching old technology is neccessary to keep up.

Sheesh... Rolling Eyes


appolgies to you torswin... it was the post immediately following that got me rankeled up. where the person said "I woulnd' call 3 years 3 weeks" or something like that. a literal interpretation of an exagerated post there.



I wouldn't call exagerated sarcastic either.

Mr Friendly
The Lost and The Damned
Posted - 2007.12.01 20:04:00 - [29]
 

I`m sorry, could we go back on-topic again? Please?

I'd like to have an answer from a capable programmer if possible.

Minsc
Gallente
Alpha Empire
Posted - 2007.12.01 20:10:00 - [30]
 

The polygon count of the ships is not much higher than the old engine. If I recall correctly the old models are around 3000 poly's and the new ones are around 5000 poly's. Not a huge increase by any means. It's the normal maps that give the illusion of higher polygon count.

one of the devs made a post about why sm2 won't work and it had something to do with shader instruction length, namely that the sm2 was restricted to 256 instructions and sm3+ isn't. It was something to that effect. Essentially they would have to write an entire set of simpler shaders just to be compatible with sm2, which is not really worth it as anyone who falls within that group can just play the classic client.


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