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Tareen Kashaar
Gyoza Society
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.11.29 13:33:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: petergriffen
Originally by: Tareen Kashaar
Originally by: CCP Explorer
There is a really good reason for requiring SM 3 for the new Premium Graphics Content in EVE Online: Trinity. We use very complicated shaders in the new art content with much more instructions than SM 2 supports.


Tongue-in-cheek , but... There's this thing called optimization, ever heard of it? Twisted Evil


Yes, optimization to SM2 is called SM3. They upgraded, you should too!


Sorry, but you missed the mark here. For one, my machine is sm3 capable. The entire point of my post was: SM3 allows the use of more instructions per shader than SM2. Does the achieved visual quality reflect this, or could the same look not be achieved within SM2's limits through the use of optimized code?

Look at the PS2 - some of the constraints developers had to work with on that machine were outrageous, yet the visual quality achieved by some games was simply stunning.

Either way, as I originally said, it was a tounge-in-cheek remark, nothing that I'm too concerned about. After all, setting the lower limit at DX9 SM3 creates a lot of space for future improvements.

nomis ekoobmah
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2007.11.29 14:18:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Arana Tellen

The shaders are too long for SM2 so unless you want them to waste a couple of years of coding time on an obsolete set of graphics cards that in a year or two will hardly be around, well........



... but they are not too long for DX9.0b compliant cards such as the Radeon X700, X800 and X850 which all support long shaders. True there are other limitations but the shaders should work OK.

Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2007.11.29 14:34:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 29/11/2007 14:37:48
Quote:
It does not in any way make sense for ccp to make a new engine if they base it on outdated technology. The old engine will still be supported so what is the problem?


To rehash, the new ENGINE is supported just fine on any DX9 (probably even DX8) card. It's the textures and models that are SM3 (DX9c) only, not the engine. The "Classic" content is still the new engine, it's just the original graphics running on aforementioned engine. What I'd like to see is a little bit of love for those of us who continue to pay our subs, but can't justify upgrading just quite yet. I don't think anyone running an older card would ever expect to get mind boggling graphics, but you seem to fail to comprehend that those of us with cards that are not SM3 compliant receive nothing from this update - save a degradation in client performance.

Please correct me if I'm truly barking up a gum tree here, but it wouldn't take hundreds of man hours to get those of us stuck with lower end hardware some new textures to fill the gap between the incredibly dated looking "classic" content, and the new "premium" content that is at present out of our reach. No amount of forum whoring is going to have them revoke these new textures, so those of you who seem to feel the desire to defend this viewpoint are simply wasting their time - what's reasonable to ask for, is some form of middle ground to go along with what is due to come in on the 5th.

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.29 14:49:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Cedric Diggory

Please correct me if I'm truly barking up a gum tree here


You are. If you are that desperate for the new graphics, go to your local computershop and get a sm3 card from the bargain bin. If you can afford to pay for your sub, you can afford to buy a graphics card that can run trinity.

Quote:

What I'd like to see is a little bit of love for those of us who continue to pay our subs, but can't justify upgrading just quite yet.


You mean like the new ships etc coming in the new free expansion?

Falkrich Swifthand
Caldari
eNinjas Incorporated
Posted - 2007.11.29 15:31:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Falkrich Swifthand on 29/11/2007 15:32:58
Originally by: nomis ekoobmah
Originally by: Arana Tellen

The shaders are too long for SM2 so unless you want them to waste a couple of years of coding time on an obsolete set of graphics cards that in a year or two will hardly be around, well........



... but they are not too long for DX9.0b compliant cards such as the Radeon X700, X800 and X850 which all support long shaders. True there are other limitations but the shaders should work OK.

There are OTHER differences between SM3 and SM2.
See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Level_Shader_Language
e.g. While the total shader length is the same between SM2b and SM3 (512 instructions), an SM2b card will only execute up to 512 instructions and an SM3 card will execute up to 65536, screwing up long loops:
Instruction slots: SM2: 32+64 SM2a/SM2b: 512 SM3: ≥512
Executed instructions: SM2: 32+64 SM2a/SM2b:512 SM3:65536

It's also worth noting that according to the most recent valve gamer hardware survey, 64% (and rising) of gamers have a SM3 card, and only 18% (and dropping) have a SM2 card. Roughly half of those 18% are Radeon 9000 series cards that are only pure SM2, and roughly another half are Radeon X000 series with SM2b.
While converting SM3 shaders to SM2b is easier than SM2, is it really worth it for ~10% of players? Especially when they can still play the game, and could see the new graphics by getting a $50 graphics card upgrade? I imagine it would cost CCP more than that to do.

Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2007.11.29 15:38:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 29/11/2007 15:39:02
Originally by: Esmenet
You are. If you are that desperate for the new graphics, go to your local computershop and get a sm3 card from the bargain bin. If you can afford to pay for your sub, you can afford to buy a graphics card that can run trinity.


And experience framerates of 10-15 in combat? There are very few AGP setups that will cope with this, it's really pushing the bar up considerably and hence merit a full system upgrade. Don't get me wrong, this is still a necessity - it'd just be nice if there was something to bridge the gap between the classic and premium content

Quote:
You mean like the new ships etc coming in the new free expansion?


That's a little love for us all! Laughing

Quote:
It's also worth noting that according to the most recent valve gamer hardware survey, 64% (and rising) of gamers have a SM3 card, and only 18% (and dropping) have a SM2 card. Roughly half of those 18% are Radeon 9000 series cards that are only pure SM2, and roughly another half are Radeon X000 series with SM2b.


Which brings us nicely back to my point: why no survey of Eve users?

Cypherous
Minmatar
Lions of Judah Incorporated
Posted - 2007.11.29 15:40:00 - [97]
 

As has been pointed out if you want th nice new content get a newer card, personally i'm waiting on the DX10 SM4 client to play with thats going to be very nice ^^

Haldir Ravenclaw
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.11.29 16:24:00 - [98]
 

I love the fact most peoples reply in this is along the lines of "if you don't have a SM3 GPU, stfu and go buy one you cheap noob". Not exactly a well thought out answer, I must say. I for one run an old "dinosaur" of a computer by today's standards (ATi X800, 1GB RAM, P4 3.2GHz, nearing 4 years old, not even PCI-E!) and won't be able to run the shiny stuff when Trinity touches down. Sure, I find it slightly annoying that the best I can do is look at pictures for the time being, but I'm not going to simply purchase a SM3 GPU for this computer only for it to run at extremely bad FPS. But for now, even on the test server, I like the increased speed of the original graphics with the updated engine so I'm quite happy with that for now.

In the new year I'll be upgrading to a completely new PC anyway, but I won't be complaining at the fact I want more stuff because it'll be Windows Vista and a DirectX 10 graphics card with SM4 on it (or whatever a 8800GT has). Be grateful we still get to play with the new content, even though it doesn't look as shiny, as this graphics upgrade doesn't affect your gameplay (other than the improved engine and fps etc, as already stated somewhere in a dev blog) and you can still go about your business as normal. Until the day I upgrade, I'll still be playing EVE as it is now, with the new content but without shiny stuff.

Bring it on I say... EVE will still be around if, and when, people decide to upgrade their computers. All these low-end SM3 cards are dirt cheap now (even for AGP), and will be even cheaper later on if your not after a super-duper high-end computer. Hell, if you want to be even cheaper, check eBay!

But good job to CCP for the graphics improvement, looks awesome! Shocked I'll be able to play with it as soon as I get my new PC! Very Happy

Bonny Lou
Posted - 2007.11.29 17:13:00 - [99]
 

So CCP should support DX8, DX9 SM2, DX9 SM3 and later DX10??? ok dude...

petergriffen
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.11.29 19:27:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: petergriffen on 29/11/2007 19:27:39
Comments that the new engine will run "slower" on SM2 cards are unfounded. The new engine is based in DirectX 9... One of the HUGE ADVANTAGES to DX9 is that it offloads most of the graphics work from the CPU to the GPU, leaving your CPU available to handle whatever is left over. If you're running a DirectX 9 capable card, whether it's Shader Model 1, 2, 12 or -50, you WILL see a performance increase. It's when all the shiny new shaders, textures, lighting, shadows etc. are added in that the slowdown will occur.

Despite what people seem to think, you ARE getting an engine upgrade, one that will, in all likeliness, perform a hell of a lot better than the old DX7/8 engine.

Cardice Makar
Dark Knights of Deneb
Posted - 2007.11.29 20:13:00 - [101]
 

I would just like to point out that, in most games, 'trinity' would be a new game.

You would get the honour of going out and buying a replacement game.
Your old game and progress would be marked as obsolete.
You would need to upgrade your machine to play it.
And, at that point you've both bought a new game and a new graphics card anyway.

The only difference is, now, that instead of being a whole new game, you can keep playing and infact switch back and forth between the two at will.

I personally see this as a reasonable choice. CCP chose the shader path they wished to use. A great deal of people are dwelling on capabilities of the current engine, but aren't taking into account that they plan on releasing new effect packages and overhauling other systems. Perhaps this is why they chose SM3 support?

Trinity1 stood up to nearly 7 years of abuse, [beta testing included], and still looks good. Trinity2 is supposed to stand up to a further 7 years. How many MMO's have survived 5-7 years and are expecting to have the SAME MMO survive another 7? Keeping your options open is a very wise move, I'm just sorry that you're unable to play with the new graphics settings. Perhaps in the coming months you will find the ability to make use of the new graphics content.

The future is bright, just keep that in mind. We can all still play the same game ugh

Mikelio Raijan
Celtic Anarchy
Posted - 2007.11.29 20:26:00 - [102]
 

*Points and laughs at the PS2 people*
Oh hi, some of us are running PS4 now... time to think about upgrading maby?

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2007.11.29 20:28:00 - [103]
 

I have one thing to ask for: change paladin skin on old GFX. As i cant run new one (10 ships on screen = FPS drop to negative numbers) id like at least yto have decent (read: not pink) ships in amarr line...

As for old gfx: at least i will have GOOD looking absolution.

Freyya
Advanced Planetary Exports
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2007.11.29 21:07:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Freyya on 29/11/2007 21:07:47
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
(10 ships on screen = FPS drop to negative numbers)


Cool!! so you can actually go back in frames and change a decision if it turns out to be a bad one? me wantsShockedWink

Anyways for all ya'll; Go get a Ati HD3850 or HD3870 or nVidia GT8800...they're rather cheap for their good performance, SM4/dx10 compliant aswell + PCI-e 2.0... so actually pretty futureproof atm..

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2007.11.29 21:32:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Freyya
Edited by: Freyya on 29/11/2007 21:07:47
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
(10 ships on screen = FPS drop to negative numbers)


Cool!! so you can actually go back in frames and change a decision if it turns out to be a bad one? me wantsShockedWink


Yep - there is a swithc in GFX options for old/new content. Only minus of having new content but using old is that 1gig tumor your EVE copy will carry ;p

Zekarus
Caldari
MAIDS
Posted - 2007.11.29 21:43:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Mikelio Raijan
*Points and laughs at the PS2 people*
Oh hi, some of us are running PS4 now... time to think about upgrading maby?

University student. Athlon XP 2800+, 1GB RAM, GF 7600GT AGP. So **** you.

Not all of us have enough income to be able to afford a new computer, many of my friends can barely pay the rent.

As for many people, surely if you have an old rig (like I do), you must be used to this kind of rejection by now? Every time someone talks about how they can run CoD4 or Crysis, I die a bit inside. Confused

Bimjo
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.11.29 22:05:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Zekarus
Originally by: Mikelio Raijan
*Points and laughs at the PS2 people*
Oh hi, some of us are running PS4 now... time to think about upgrading maby?

University student. Athlon XP 2800+, 1GB RAM, GF 7600GT AGP. So **** you.

Not all of us have enough income to be able to afford a new computer, many of my friends can barely pay the rent.

As for many people, surely if you have an old rig (like I do), you must be used to this kind of rejection by now? Every time someone talks about how they can run CoD4 or Crysis, I die a bit inside. Confused

study, as you are , and soon you'll be able to buy a top notch PC Cool
chin upYARRRR!! (no I won't tell you what I have in my rig as you will commit hara kiriLaughing)

Mikelio Raijan
Celtic Anarchy
Posted - 2007.11.29 22:44:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Zekarus
Originally by: Mikelio Raijan
*Points and laughs at the PS2 people*
Oh hi, some of us are running PS4 now... time to think about upgrading maby?

University student. Athlon XP 2800+, 1GB RAM, GF 7600GT AGP. So **** you.

Not all of us have enough income to be able to afford a new computer, many of my friends can barely pay the rent.

As for many people, surely if you have an old rig (like I do), you must be used to this kind of rejection by now? Every time someone talks about how they can run CoD4 or Crysis, I die a bit inside. Confused


You have a SM3 card. Laughing So **** you too. Wink

It's the tarts that want to halt graphics progress altogether because they don't want to/can't upgrade... but somehow want better graphics (with no performance loss?) that are annoying me.

Draeca
Tharri and Co.
Posted - 2007.11.29 22:54:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Bimjo
study, as you are , and soon you'll be able to buy a top notch PC Cool
chin upYARRRR!! (no I won't tell you what I have in my rig as you will commit hara kiriLaughing)


Yeah, maybe I can buy a new top of the line PC too when I finish my studies and find a well paid job. The problem is that I still have 3 and a half years left, and I'm allready running almost 3 year old laptop with mob. radeon x600 (which actually runs crysis, I was quite surprised).
I also happen to have a lovely hobby called music, which is all about getting new shiny and expensive instruments. And I can barely pay my rent right now so I'm really tight on cash for the next few years.

This sucks, but whatever.. I just have to live with it..

I don't know how hard it might be to implement, but would be awesome if the people with "lesser" rigs could run the old graphics engine with new models and toned down textures without all the fancy shaders and stuff.

CCP Gangleri


Minmatar
Posted - 2007.11.29 22:55:00 - [110]
 

There are two clients, if you can not run the new content then you have the option of running the classic client with the new and upgraded engine.

If you want better graphics you need to buy better hardware.


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