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blankseplocked question: uber fast way to increase agent corp standing?
 
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2004.04.05 19:28:00 - [31]
 

Quote:
Look you dolts, here's how it is an exploit:

- Guy doing kill missions can't spam them.
- Guy doing courier missions can't spam them.
- Guy doing mining missions CAN.

Thus:

- Guy doing kill missions gets implant at rate intended by devs.
- Guy doing courier missions gets implant at rate intended by devs.
- Guy doing spammed mining missions gets implants at a much, much faster rate which destabilizes the balance of missions and causes all players to abandon kill missions in favor of vastly more profitable mining spam.

Thus:

The market is saturated with implants, will implants sell for 500k ISK each, no-one makes good money anymore, Eve explodes, Russia declares atomic war on America and we all die.

You don't want to bring about the end of the world, do you?


And those people who abuse the kill missions and chain them dont exploit? Rolling Eyes how many wasnt chaining zor to get the +4 implants. Maybe one of the reasons why Zor got removed? There was people who were literaly doing that over and over whole day long, not a big secret that.

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2004.04.05 20:41:00 - [32]
 

Quote:
Quote:
Look you dolts, here's how it is an exploit:

- Guy doing kill missions can't spam them.
- Guy doing courier missions can't spam them.
- Guy doing mining missions CAN.

Thus:

- Guy doing kill missions gets implant at rate intended by devs.
- Guy doing courier missions gets implant at rate intended by devs.
- Guy doing spammed mining missions gets implants at a much, much faster rate which destabilizes the balance of missions and causes all players to abandon kill missions in favor of vastly more profitable mining spam.

Thus:

The market is saturated with implants, will implants sell for 500k ISK each, no-one makes good money anymore, Eve explodes, Russia declares atomic war on America and we all die.

You don't want to bring about the end of the world, do you?


And those people who abuse the kill missions and chain them dont exploit? Rolling Eyes how many wasnt chaining zor to get the +4 implants. Maybe one of the reasons why Zor got removed? There was people who were literaly doing that over and over whole day long, not a big secret that.


Interesting reasoning here, he exploited a obvious bug so I should be able to do the same.

Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2004.04.05 20:54:00 - [33]
 

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Look you dolts, here's how it is an exploit:

- Guy doing kill missions can't spam them.
- Guy doing courier missions can't spam them.
- Guy doing mining missions CAN.

Thus:

- Guy doing kill missions gets implant at rate intended by devs.
- Guy doing courier missions gets implant at rate intended by devs.
- Guy doing spammed mining missions gets implants at a much, much faster rate which destabilizes the balance of missions and causes all players to abandon kill missions in favor of vastly more profitable mining spam.

Thus:

The market is saturated with implants, will implants sell for 500k ISK each, no-one makes good money anymore, Eve explodes, Russia declares atomic war on America and we all die.

You don't want to bring about the end of the world, do you?


And those people who abuse the kill missions and chain them dont exploit? Rolling Eyes how many wasnt chaining zor to get the +4 implants. Maybe one of the reasons why Zor got removed? There was people who were literaly doing that over and over whole day long, not a big secret that.


Interesting reasoning here, he exploited a obvious bug so I should be able to do the same.


Eh, no, I just responded to the way he made "kill missions" look so honest and non exploitable. And if you spend HOURS to make preparations for some instant missions, and often you pay up in advance for goods you dont know you even will get back. So what is so exploitable with that?

People are so friggin fast with yell exploits, cheating and whatnot in this game, not thinking about hard work and effort put into it. If you are going to be punished for thinking tactical and make preparations, then doesnt that make much of what this game promise a big fat lie?

Ooke
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2004.04.05 21:19:00 - [34]
 

this is just the same idea that people use with courier jobs...

eventually missions repeat (same station and items)

so some people stockpile at those stations the needed items. not many items are flagged as unique so any old report or robotics will work.

then once they've done a bit of going around they hardly ever have to move again. And since they're mostly courier they never loose supplies either. Same exact concept.

the difference is you have to have millions of quantity of some minerals/ores and you have to keep going out to get more.

Athule Snanm
Amarr
Rien Ici
Posted - 2004.04.05 21:29:00 - [35]
 

The problem with mining missions is that you don't need to do barely anything to be able to instacomplete them. What's stopping me wandering around a few systems with an Iteron V and a fat wallet taking minerals and ores back to an agent and then sitting there instacompleting until I get bored? Nothing really.

There are other missions you can do similar things with (or used to be able to anyway, I'm currently doing courier missions so I don't know if the holes have been plugged) for example some of the scenario missions where you need to collect datasheets and reports. I had a stack of each and whenever one of those missions came up I instacompleted them (I didn't realise this was classed as an exploit at the time as this was the way all missions used to work pre-castor, until PapaS posted about it on the forums). The idea that they took about the same amount of time in preparation to do as courier missions (or normal kill missions) do to actually do is preposterous. Indeed if it wasn't for the fact that most of the missions were ones of other types I dare say I could have knocked off 20 a minute, never mind 20 a day. If mining corps do indeed give out just mining missions then I'd say it was very unbalanced.

Kakita Jalaan
Viriette Commerce and Holding
Posted - 2004.04.05 23:35:00 - [36]
 

Quote:
If mining corps do indeed give out just mining missions then I'd say it was very unbalanced.



Oh yeah? The one thing that makes them imbalanced is the large amount of money you can make off them in a short time. If they are tuned down a bit to not give about 2-4 times the market value of the ores/mins you're supposed to bring home but, say, max 2 times their 'worth' by whatever that is defined that's fine. But what else should mining agents of mining corps give you, if not mining missions? By the way, they hand out a decent share of courier missions, but that might depend on the agent.

Level 2 mining agents are completely unfair anyway, they sometimes ask you to bring them some nox or mega when you're deep in high sec space, and the money they offer for it is often LESS than the market worth. Maybe it would be possible to incorporate a kind of checking system for mining/production/trade agents so that they give the pilots maybe 50-80% more for the items than they're currently worth on the market (say, averaged NPC prices for it in that region to exclude other exploits I can think of right off the top of my head).

Courier missions are very sad to do as well, compared to kill missions. To be effective as a Courier, you have to stack missons from multiple agents to minimize your flying around empty in a slow indy. Then use the optimize function of your world map and try to reap as many time bonus rewards as you possibly can without getting a heart attack. I once worked as an operator doing something similar, so I tried applying this to Eve's courier missions. Guess what, I made maybe 300k tops an hour, while a buddy of mine that started out with me made about 1M an hour (including loot) without so much as breaking a sweat.


What i'm getting at is, if the money income for mining missions is tuned down (and maybe you're more often sent for raw ores, which you don't find on the market as much as minerals and which take up more cargo space to stop you from collecting too many in one go) in the end mining missions will be just as balanced as anything else is. Kill missions will probably net a bit more money if you include bounty and loot, but will probably take a bit longer. So after the mining guy has amassed implants (maybe 1 in 150 missions as Papa Smurf estimated) he sells them to make up the difference in income he experiences compared to the kill mission guy. And the courier guy quietly sobs while his Iteron Mk III aligns itself slooowly for warping to the next stop on his remaining 50 jumps.

Inewulf
Lightforge Mining and Shipyards
Posted - 2004.04.05 23:58:00 - [37]
 

I just want to add one thing to this thread. Mining Corps only give out 1 type of implant from other threads. Just like the Navies give 1 type of implant, etc. So those that excel at mining, kill, courier will eventually have to do the other types of missions/corps to get a set of implants. So where is the imbalance here then?

Qutsemnie
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.04.06 07:47:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Qutsemnie on 06/04/2004 07:59:37
nm. buying ore aint that easy =)




FemCenobite
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2004.04.06 15:33:00 - [39]
 

How about instance mning missions?

Mission:
A rouge comet flew through XXXX system, striking an asteroid belt in flight. The rare combination of gases and ore created an unsual element YYYY that we wish to study. Head out to XXXX system, at the bookmark that I set for you, and get me 300 m3 of that YYYY element for our geological team can get working on. You have 24 hours to complete this mission.

etc etc etc

Easy to make a mining mission if there is a need for one. =)

Papa Smurf

Posted - 2004.04.06 16:28:00 - [40]
 

They're an exploit in comparison with f.ex. courier/trade missions because those missions have a much greater variation of factors such as commodity type and destination location. For the most part, if you do manage to instacomplete a courier/trade mission, you've done that with a fair amount of effort and thus you deserve being allowed to instacomplete. With mining agents however, there's very little effort involved in instacompleting en masse.

Anyhow, I will be disabling all mining and astrosurveying agents as of now until further notice. I'll be fixing this up for the next patch, which won't be coming until sometime next week at earliest.

I'll be doing this by increasing their level to 4, so don't be surprised by the weird responses you'll be getting.



Morkt Drakt
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Posted - 2004.04.06 17:00:00 - [41]
 

/me cheers PapaSmurf

\0/


Qutsemnie
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.04.06 18:05:00 - [42]
 

Expect some economic backlash.

Price on minerals and ores was being bolstered by those agents.


As I wrote in a post I edited out if you created a slush fund for minerals and ore the pay outs on missions were greater then the cost of minerals and ores. Theoretically this means the slush fund just needed clicks and hauling to burn *ALL* the minerals and ores in the universe into isk. It was a selfsustaining cycle cause player prices on ores were generally under payouts on missions by alot.

Unless of course they were sold out.

And I did some scoping and most ores in the forge region were sold out. I believe a huge factor in this ore rarity was these missions. If they werent sold out mostly across the board it would be efficient to just burn loads of into isk then use the proceeds to buy more in that self sustaining reaction I mentioned.


Essentially these missions were a price floor. So that ore prices could never get that far under mission rewards without producing a huge incentive to simply burn stacks of ore. You just took a quasi floor to the prices on ore a way and took away one of the ore sinks that removed them from the game.

Both have to cause the price of ore to drop.



CT BadIronTree
Gallente
Colossus Technologies
Posted - 2004.04.06 20:10:00 - [43]
 

i do mining missions at the best agent of astral mining corp...

i get 1- implant per day because of Instamision... us you say... last night i send an petision for a guy the some how in 2 hour manage to get 10 implant from my agent and put them in the market for 4 milions... (mies astral mining station)

today the crap willpower implant i get cost 3.5 milions and i cant sell it.....

PLEASE if you kill instamining mission put better implants :PPP

or PLEASE make implants random to all corp PLEASE

what is the resson to put specific implants per corp????
why sould we have expensive Memory implant??? they are not better than intelegent or perseption... only rear now...Evil or Very Mad

Morkt Drakt
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Posted - 2004.04.06 20:25:00 - [44]
 

Erm.. the reason willpower are cheap is because everybody and their dog has been exploiting the crap out of mining corps that give them.

Depressed prices is what happens when a market is saturated.

Quote:
Expect some economic backlash.


There wont be even so much as a ripple... except in the wallets of those who were profiting greatly off the exploitation of this issue.


EagleHawk RockClimber
Band of Builders Inc.
Cascade Associates
Posted - 2004.04.06 20:57:00 - [45]
 

Cheers Loudly.

I have noticed a change to some of the missions I do. I do not work for a Mining Corp but some of my missions(rare)were mining. They now require me to go KILL the pirates that stole the minerals. I much prefer that method!!! It is fun and rewarding from bounty loot and missions completion(R & D agents).

Keep Safe.

EagleHawk

Ooke
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2004.04.06 23:30:00 - [46]
 

scenario mining missions for "rare" trade good minerals would be nice. Comets, Dark Matter, Gasses, Crystals, Base Elements that kind of thing.

would improve the diversity for people who do missions and mine.

Busko Moonwalker
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2004.04.07 06:38:00 - [47]
 

Dont know how it can be called a exploit.
I still need to spend time in the droid mining the ore to get the minerals.
SO dose it mather if i do it in advance ?

Kakita Jalaan
Viriette Commerce and Holding
Posted - 2004.04.07 09:22:00 - [48]
 

Well, chapter closed I guess.

Novamute
Gallente
Four Horsemen
Posted - 2004.04.07 17:02:00 - [49]
 

Quote:
Look you dolts, here's how it is an exploit:

- Guy doing kill missions can't spam them.
- Guy doing courier missions can't spam them.
- Guy doing mining missions CAN.

Thus:

- Guy doing kill missions gets implant at rate intended by devs.
- Guy doing courier missions gets implant at rate intended by devs.
- Guy doing spammed mining missions gets implants at a much, much faster rate which destabilizes the balance of missions and causes all players to abandon kill missions in favor of vastly more profitable mining spam.

Thus:

The market is saturated with implants, will implants sell for 500k ISK each, no-one makes good money anymore, Eve explodes, Russia declares atomic war on America and we all die.

You don't want to bring about the end of the world, do you?


Amen.

Verbal Kint
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2004.04.07 18:34:00 - [50]
 

Have to put in my oppinion here...
PapaSmurf, When you call mining mish's an Exploit on the grounds you do. All other of this kinda repeat 'business' should be held to be an Exploit to! Yes it might take more time to figure them out. But please... that shouldn't be the reason for deciding what is an exploit and whats not. For christ sake man, the only thing that will show us is that you want the game to go slower... probably so you can earn more money.

My Situation.
I had to move my Ore refining from a DuVolle station to an Astral mining station cause you changed the Refining percentage. Now i have all my mined and Bought ore on that station. I have worked to either Mine the ore or get the Isk to buy it. Wich means i have used hours/days to get my suply.
I am a miner manufacturer so i don't do that many mish's. But once in awhile when i'm there to pick up or drop of a load of ore i run some as i can get Components this way.
I'm not interested in the monetary reward or BP or whatever else they throw at me, I want components I can use in my manufacturing. But as the drop of these are very scarce i usually get bored with sitting there clicking fairly fast and look at my orders to see if some have trickled in that way instead.

This 'Strike' on Mining agents and calling it an exploit is harasment. You harass me for running a smooth and efficient operation. Agree that they might need to be tweaked compared to the rest of the system. But This is how mining and miningagents should work, going out and mine everytime.... well that would screw up the system the other way around.

Had to vent my anger/frustration. Love this game, Not loving some of the changes suddenly happening overDT cause someone has yelled a bit to high about this is rigged or unfair...

*V.K.*

Harisdrop
Gallente
Vindicate and Deliverance
Posted - 2004.04.07 19:24:00 - [51]
 

And the hammer falls!!!!

Court adjorned!!!

Athule Snanm
Amarr
Rien Ici
Posted - 2004.04.07 19:40:00 - [52]
 

Quote:
...sitting there clicking fairly fast...


LOL, and of course that doesn't seem in the slightest bit suspicious Rolling Eyes

Morkt Drakt
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Posted - 2004.04.07 20:30:00 - [53]
 

Quote:
But as the drop of these are very scarce i usually get bored with sitting there clicking fairly fast and look at my orders to see if some have trickled in that way instead.


My cold caldari heart is bleeding for you.

It must be hell to have to now play the same game the rest of us have been.

s4xon
Flashman Services
Posted - 2004.04.07 23:43:00 - [54]
 

This really need to be sorted out in a fair and measured way, and clearly just stopping all agents from giving missions or turning them into level 4 agents is not ina ny way well thought out or fair.

Please also correct or retract comments which state that thee mining "insta" missions are an exploit... this would sugggest that we as players are doing something wrong which we are not, we are simply working in an efficient way and would be very stupid not to.

Can the GM's assure us that this will be dealt with so that people who have made bases and moved resources to areas which contain lots of mining agents will not be over penalised for a balance of the game that thy got slightly wrong.

I say slightly because this imbalance is not as major as you first might think.. Firstly the minerals have to be mined.....secondly the missions use minerals...lots of them.... minerals which could otherwise be sold for a reasonable amount of isk.... if you combine the overall time taken to get the minerals and ore with the amount that the ore is worth then I think you would find the overall imbalance is nowhere near as great as is being implied....and you would certainly not call it an exploit.
If you stop this type of mission completely then all you will do is force more people to mine... which to be honest was driving me to quit the game anyway....it is so mind numbing...but hey...that is your choice guys....just make sure you dont jump in to quick with a fix and please consider this situation from all angles.

A better solution would be to slightly lower the monetary rewards and standing increases for such missions , and maybe decrease the frequency of these missions a bit compared to courier...but to be honest I think you have completely misread the situation and there is much less of an imbalance than you think when all is taken into account.

Extreme
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2004.04.07 23:44:00 - [55]
 

i dunno if its been suggested already but to gain standing with a boost, join the factions NPC corp (not the faction itself as thats impossible if i am correct)

Now give isk to the corp Wink


Vin Nova
Posted - 2004.04.08 02:11:00 - [56]
 

JEERS

You all whined long enough and got what you want... Boo hoo. We work just as hard to get minerals and ore as any of you guys do. Having the stuff in stock means we're smart. And, I'm sure you all took advantage of this or you were just too stupid to realize it... and now you're whining about it. Yea, theres a lot of willpower implants out... so what... this is a market... some things are more available than others.

i cant understand you clowns. this is a legit tactic. you know guys, there are like 4 other implants that you can also get. is it so wrong that one of them is easier to get than the others? how many of you were ever kids and went to the store to buy bugs bunny and all they had was porky pig. well... the willpower is the porky pig here.

stop whining about mining agent missions... its legit and its fair. atleast it was... thanks to the whiners.

Knefru Khamen
Viziam
Posted - 2004.04.08 02:17:00 - [57]
 

Quote:
stop whining about mining agent missions... its legit and its fair. atleast it was... thanks to the whiners.


No, it was quite obviously not fair that you were getting:

1. Market value+ for minerals
2. Standing increases
3. All the sundry rewards (components, isk, modules, ships)

just by sitting in a station clicking 'Accept' and 'My work is finished.' This was not an exploit but you should have known better.

Morkt Drakt
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Posted - 2004.04.08 02:53:00 - [58]
 

Quote:
JEERS

You all whined long enough and got what you want... Boo hoo. We work just as hard to get minerals and ore as any of you guys do. Having the stuff in stock means we're smart. And, I'm sure you all took advantage of this or you were just too stupid to realize it... and now you're whining about it. Yea, theres a lot of willpower implants out... so what... this is a market... some things are more available than others.

i cant understand you clowns. this is a legit tactic. you know guys, there are like 4 other implants that you can also get. is it so wrong that one of them is easier to get than the others? how many of you were ever kids and went to the store to buy bugs bunny and all they had was porky pig. well... the willpower is the porky pig here.

stop whining about mining agent missions... its legit and its fair. atleast it was... thanks to the whiners.


If it was so "legit" - why aren't you posting with your main characterQuestion

Harisdrop
Gallente
Vindicate and Deliverance
Posted - 2004.04.08 14:36:00 - [59]
 

Morkt I agree with you.Shocked

I dont know how anyone can say you had to pay for the minerals when you get 500% return on the minerals that you give your agent in rewards and bonus.....

I still think a change to what the agents give out should be changed. Make it pure components or trade goods. No isk would be the solved issue. Isk just feeds the fire for exploits. Put the timer back in and make it 30 minutes. Place more kill missions in all agents. If an agent can give out 250,000 isk to do what a courrier mission on escrow would do for 50,000 isk why do it thru an agent. That is an exploit and ruins the escrow courrier game.

Agents must have a valid place in any corp. Valid is something that is dangerous and out of the ordinary. Like corp wars for the npc corp. Go out and kill an opposing agent runner. Fast Talk should be valid. Make all level 3 agents work in 0.4 and lower. Have agent runners forced to kill convoy's, be ore thieves of opposing agents. Make it exciting and dangerous.

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2004.04.08 15:16:00 - [60]
 

This is blowing out of proportions imho.

I must admit that if indeed the agents in question could be extremely misused I can follow the way of thinking and the need to tweak and fix it.

However, I really cant see how this should mean totally removing the chance to plan ahead and use anticipation and preperation to make insta missions possible.

Nerfing this will have wider repercusions than most seem to be able to grasp, and its getting a bit frustrating to read posts by people trying to get every option in the game closed. It would seem there is no aspect of the game that will be left alone by these envy stompers.

If every little niche of work gets ganked by CCP as an exploit in the end we can only pvp in consent, mine in frigs with 1 laser, NPC hunt ships that dont chain, and dont drop anything.. In the end the game will become utterly lame and borring. Especially for all those new people that have no real chance to find the special possibilities left, and has to go and become yet another miner.

Some of the "holes" are what is keeping the economy somewhat tolerable, because the whole economics issue has had NO LOVE at all from CCP since retail launch.

Pricings are still stagnant and static, only logical facility change/addition is the refinings, and they are not really a good addition unless followed by more of the same nature.. TAX, STOCKS, TOLL, VAT etc.. and Dynamic demands and supply, and facility pricings on all NPC facilities and service..

Trading is possible, yes, but the area is extremely static and uninteresting to most players because values flux within so small margins and visibility in market is impossible.

Ad to this that we have played now 3 weeks allmost without the graphs of trades due to a bug...

IN Summation, till serious economic balance thinking becomes a topic in CCP and in the community game will remain rather slow stale and exploitlike in its appearance..

My 2 ISK


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