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blankseplocked Starter attributes study - are Caldari really the best choice?
 
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b1zz
Posted - 2007.11.25 04:28:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: b1zz on 25/11/2007 04:35:15
Before I started playing I decided to use the Eve Master Datasheet maintained by Jublie to calculate some optimal attribute setups for different careers in Eve.

The formula used was:
1. select skill sets. I did not pick out individual skills, just the skill sets. I only wanted a general idea so I could get a character started and then have a look at him in EVEMon.
2. Calculate the percentage influence of each attribute for the group of skill sets chosen using the formula [(Skill 1 Primary Attribute)* Skill 1 Rank + (Skill 1 Secondary Attribute)/2 * Skill 1 Rank] + [(Skill 2 Primary Attribute)* Skill 2 Rank + (Skill 2 Secondary Attribute)/2 * Skill 2 Rank] ... [(Skill n Primary Attribute)* Skill n Rank + (Skill n Secondary Attribute)/2 * Skill n Rank]
3. Divide base 34 attributes given at startup using percentage influence of each attribute calculated as above.
4. There were 2 exceptions. For all figures I excluded Titan skills and only included two races ship command skills. I thought this more realistic approach.

Here are the figures:
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A few conclusions I took from this:
- Willpower is not as important for fighters as I thought it would be because it's predominantly a secondary attribute and rarely a primary attribute.
- Caldari are still the best startup, but for Fighter/Traders or Fighter/Industrialists there are equivalent alternatives because these professions need high Perception, much higher than the other attributes, and this is where the Caldari startups aren't as spectacular.
- Personally I think the best allround characters are those that don't look at learning everything, but concentrate on fighting and money making in one field, like the Fighter/Trader, or Fighter/Industrialist. For these types of characters my ultimate setup, after looking at these figures, would be something like Int Mem Per Wil Cha 9 8 11 7 4 or similar. There is an argument also for running two characters, one fighter and one money maker. In this scenario the Caldari are not a good choice.
- I would think favouring perception at startup over intelligence is not quite accurate because, I would guess, in the first couple of months you would be training fighter skills and support fighter skills equally. You could argue that these figures just indicate that there are more combat skills in the game than anything else and are too long term focused to be indicative, but, I don't think you can say just go with the classic Caldari 9 9 9 9 3 startup. If you don't agree that Perception needs to be higher than Intelligence, fine, but I don't think you can argue that Memory, and definitely Wisdom should be equal. You could do this exercise more accurately if you knew exactly what skills your new character would be going for beforehand of course, but I'd recommend using something like EVEMon for that. For those that don't know, true beginners, the above figures should point you in the right direction.

The Caldari startups could be nerfed a little IMHO to even up the racial population of Eve (they can't be that ugly), but I don't think even now they are as unbalanced as the eve population believes they are, looking at the racial breakup at inEVE.

b1zz
Posted - 2007.11.25 07:17:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: b1zz on 25/11/2007 07:23:18
Worth mentioning also is the pure fighter character.

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Here is where the Caldari are imbalanced I think. A Caldari character shouldn't be at the top of this list. Caldari's are all-rounders. Knock off 1 PER and give him some charisma (c'mon, he's a fighting man with tight buns - the chicks'll love him) and it would take him to second. Maybe adjust something else. I would think he should be fourth here.

The pure fighter character turns out similar to the fighter/trader character, giving you an indication of the very small impact the trade skills (and charisma) have in the overall scheme of things.

Safel Nastra
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.11.25 08:33:00 - [3]
 

20,000 macro miners and mission runners flying caldari achura can't be wrong ;)

Jupiter Sun
Posted - 2007.11.25 11:29:00 - [4]
 

one does not simply walk into tl;dr!


Lord Perdition
Posted - 2007.11.25 13:04:00 - [5]
 

Who cares? If u dont like your current char do not whine, sell it on the market and buy another one. If u are so math wise dude, compare the different race battleships aswell. Let's nerf em all, coz the battleship u fly has less low slots than abbadon?


cry me a river plz

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.11.25 15:15:00 - [6]
 

You can't change base attributes for any character, it's never been done, and for a good reason.
You can however change some skills in primary/secondary attributes, it's been done, but not a lot (wilpower nerf), and you can always include more "useful" skills with different attribute variations.

Apertotes
Posted - 2007.11.26 11:34:00 - [7]
 

i find it strange that you only included 2 races of ships, but all the gunnery and missile trees

Twilight Moon
Minmatar
Tague Corp
Posted - 2007.11.26 12:45:00 - [8]
 

I get sick of seeing Achura faces everywhere. They're very bland.

I hope CCP gives them the shaft when it comes to re-creating your character portrait in Ambulation, juast give them really dull options, and reward everyone else with shiny things.

b1zz
Posted - 2007.11.26 13:20:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: b1zz on 26/11/2007 13:48:32
Originally by: Apertotes
i find it strange that you only included 2 races of ships, but all the gunnery and missile trees


Why? What's the problem. Explain your statement. I don't profess to be an expert; I only just started playing, but I did play the beta way back. Can't all ships use all the fighter skills? Would you not use certain fighter skills in certain ships? These figures were not supposed to be specific. If you think certain skills should not be included just remove them and take off a few Perception from your starter character as I actually did do on my first character b1zz. As I said in my first post I think any thing more specific and you could use EVEMon. These tables are admittedly general.

Originally by: Akita T
You can't change base attributes for any character, it's never been done, and for a good reason.
You can however change some skills in primary/secondary attributes, it's been done, but not a lot (wilpower nerf), and you can always include more "useful" skills with different attribute variations.


Why can't you change base attributes? I'm not proposing changing existing characters, and I'm also not proposing radical changes - there are roleplaying reasons for having the base attributes as they are; they make sense from a story standpoint. But at what point does the story start to get trampled by powergamers, when the Caldari population hits 50% of the total eve population, maybe at 60%. It doesn't really matter if the whole population of eve were Caldari from game mechanics side of things. Everyone can buy everyone elses ships and go where ever they want to, but is CCP worried about the story. How do they explain in the story arc of eve the "Caldari population boom".

Yes, they could add more skills requiring the underused attributes, the obvious being Charisma. Will they though? Is there any room for more skills in that area? I think that adding more perception skills also evens things up because the Caldari don't have any super high perception starter paths.

Anyway, the point of my study was to see for myself if there was a way to have a strong character at startup, with the potential to train skills as quickly as a Caldari, and not follow the crowd and be a Caldari. The answer was yes. Fighter, fighter/trader, fighter/industrialists all have viable alternatives. Look at fighter/trader, the top four are Caldari Ammar Minmatar Gallente. Then the next four after that are the same, Caldari Ammar Minmatar Gallente. That's balanced. I chose Minmatar Sebiestor Rebel. I have three more charisma for my trade skills. I may have one less attribute in perception, memory and willpower than a Caldari monk aswell but what does that mean? A couple of days longer training time in a whole year maybe? It's not enough to care about. I like the fast minmatar ships, my slice of space is not over crowded, and my character looks like he's perfected the sexy "Blue Steel" side glance thing. It's all good.


Cipher7
Posted - 2007.11.26 16:06:00 - [10]
 


I think what the OP is getting at is that currently there is no reason to be anything but Achura.

Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2007.11.26 16:54:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Jill Antaris on 26/11/2007 16:55:53
Welcome to Caldari Online. O wait Achura Online!

Yeah the Problem is if somebody asks what Character is the best for a new Start they allways get only one Awnser "Achura". But there is a huge drawback. Achuras are ugly Chars in most cases and they all look very simlar. At top of it i would say 30% of the People I see are Achura you only think omg not another one. So as I started this Char 3 Month ago Achura was absolut no option for me, not the entire Skillpoints in EvE are worth looking like that. Ofcourse since I picked Amarr I can nicely RP with all the little Slaves aka Minmatar out there and it is great Fun. I never seen a Char that looked very close to mine so I got something nearly unique and this makes me more happy that another 500k SP per Year.

Apertotes
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:17:00 - [12]
 

well, achura girls are hot. so i do not see anybody having problems with looks when creating an achura character, unless they need to be a virtual man.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.11.26 19:48:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: b1zz
Why can't you change base attributes? I'm not proposing changing existing characters

But that's EXACTLY the point. The way the system is set up, a certain bloodline will always have and have had the same base attributes, plus the custom ones.
If you change the "new" attributes on some bloodline to make it "better", all the OTHER people who HAVE that bloodline will cry "foul" because they are NOT getting the same attributes now, and you'd be forced to either change EXISTING characters attributes (bad) or not change any attributes at all.

Cipher7
Posted - 2007.11.26 21:34:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Akita T

If you change the "new" attributes on some bloodline to make it "better", all the OTHER people who HAVE that bloodline will cry "foul" because they are NOT getting the same attributes now


So ppl who played Eve before Achura should be crying foul then, because they did not get an opportunity to roll a 99993 char.

Achura is the end of individuality in Eve, as there is now a "best" Race.

When there's a best, theres no reason to choose anything less than the best.

Ed Anger
Weekly World News
Derek Knows Us
Posted - 2007.11.26 22:22:00 - [15]
 

races/bloodlines should not be as far apart attribute-wise are they are now. there is no reason to pick any race/bloodline with a higher charisma, thus those paths are useless. yes, they need to be made more similiar.

Wayward Hooligan
The Scope
Posted - 2007.11.26 23:45:00 - [16]
 

1 - The opinion of anyone with an Achura character does not count.

2 - Charisma is good. Charisma is good. Charisma is good.

Try training Fleet Command 4 and Warfare Link Specialist 5 with an Achura.

They suck at gang related skills.

Safel Nastra
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.11.27 05:23:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Twilight Moon
I get sick of seeing Achura faces everywhere. They're very bland.

i agree, and for one will welcome our blond achura overlords sometime in the future

cal nereus
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.11.27 11:03:00 - [18]
 

I heard someone from CCP say they plan for attributes to have new abilities in the future beyond simply affecting skill training, and AFAIK charisma will be the one to get the biggest boost from that. A 99993 character might not be the best overall in the future. Confused

Achuress
Caldari
Maledictae
Posted - 2007.11.27 12:28:00 - [19]
 

Achura females are the best looking in the game...

b1zz
Posted - 2007.11.27 13:29:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Cipher7

I think what the OP is getting at is that currently there is no reason to be anything but Achura.


Mmm. I do believe I've increased the Caldari population by 10% with this post. Oh well, thems the facts.

Originally by: cal nereus
I heard someone from CCP say they plan for attributes to have new abilities in the future beyond simply affecting skill training, and AFAIK charisma will be the one to get the biggest boost from that. A 99993 character might not be the best overall in the future. Confused


If that's the case all they'd have to do is announce their plans and the racial population mix would start to even up. I hope so.

If anyone has any career paths they're curious about that I've missed post the skill sets they might use and I'll run some tables out. Is there any career paths that don't have a Caldari at the top? I was thinking maybe Pure Trader, but maybe not. A trader needs ships to fly, learning skills, mechanic skills to fit out his ship aswell maybe?


Sejet
Posted - 2007.11.27 14:43:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Sejet on 27/11/2007 14:43:42
Think it's to late to do anything about it now, but yes Azura has the stats that matter the most to most pilots. hint hint, look at the economics PDF from CCP, to many Caldari, and it's not for the look of the ships i guess.

I'm a new player in EVE and i actually rerooled from Brutor - slave child to Azhura-inventor. i'de have made up the wastet time in about a month and from then on i'd simply get more skills faster. it's not really that theres anything wriong whit the system, but Azhura stats are distributet to good.

Epidote
Gallente
Tesla Foundation
Posted - 2007.11.27 14:44:00 - [22]
 

to be honest .... you forgot a lot of things.

1] Caracter path are not so easy defined

For exemple take a scientist with only 1 race ship set stoped at Cruiser
And please also dont take into account all the skills that are only usefull on capital ...

A trader would have a minimum on spaceship commands ... to go to freighter that s all. You have to remove a lot of things in the race ship set.
And some people only fly Interceptors, cover opes or Logistics for exemple and dont care about other skills they dont need.

2] You consider life time character

Ok you consider character will all skills ... which indicate a 50 years character certainly. It would be better to consider a 25M sp points path and try to find how much time each bloodline take to (if there is an optim path)

3] Your calcul is wrong

I am sorry but for two reasons
You count the point above the optimal and under the optimal the same way ...
You said that charisma is useless (yeah perhaps) but you count the same way a difference of 1 in charisma than of 1 in int even if int represent 30% of your skill list ...

Explain me why when Per and Will represent more than 50% having two points above your optimal count the same way as being under






Sejet
Posted - 2007.11.27 15:01:00 - [23]
 

Epidote:

You are to a serten extend right. the only way to truly telle what charecter is the bes for you is to find all the skills you want at the levels you want them and:

(skillpoints as primary) + (skillpoints as secondary)/2 = stat score

do this whit each stat and you get a relative value of that stat. now multiply a chars statline whit the value of the stats, the char that get's the highest overall score is the best for getting those skills.

if you make any changes, the value of the stats will change and the calculation will be slightly off.

any kind of calculation you do will be under some kind of conditions. the conditions set here are not realistik. but it shows the trend. for most pilots Int and Perseption will be the most important and Caldari comes out on top.

bellass
Posted - 2007.11.27 20:54:00 - [24]
 

with previous top money making ships and the current buffs, it's clear that the only characters worth starting is caldari. ccp want to keep caldari happy, it is after all their biggest player base and they don't want to **** them off.

Gaius Sejanus
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.11.27 21:05:00 - [25]
 

I wouldn't mind seeing this list made with not just cutting out titan skills, but all capital ship skills (so no adv ship command, <race> dreadnaught, jump drive ops, capital shield operation, etc, et al). Also limit it to just one race's ships.

I'm firmly of the belief that the importance of perception is VASTLY overstated by most players, who make really unrealistic (or very dumb) assumptions about training.

A Gallente-Only or most Amarr-Only ship training computations would also let you completely drop the missile tree, further marginalizing the importance of perc.

Obviously that would require a lot of extra effort as well...a Gallente/Amarr setup would involve very minimal shield skills, and a Caldari (and somewhat Matari) setup would almost completely ignore armor skills. You'd need to fine-tune the spreadsheet quite a bit.

However, Achura are still ridiculously too good, and this was pointed out to CCP many many many many many many times when the asian bloodline stats were first announced, but they just don't seem to care. Welcome to Caldari Online.

Jupiter Sun
Posted - 2007.11.27 23:02:00 - [26]
 

14 intel and 10 perc base feels good.

dav
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2007.11.27 23:28:00 - [27]
 

it is actually base 39 attributes so some of the numbers are wrong

Ulstan
Posted - 2007.11.28 17:34:00 - [28]
 

Quote:
- Willpower is not as important for fighters as I thought it would be because it's predominantly a secondary attribute and rarely a primary attribute


When I first made this character, back when the game was new, I had no idea about the attributes (neither did anyone else really) and Caldari Civire had the lore of being the the 'best' fighter pilots because of high will power and perception. So I chose one and jacked the will power and perception up to unreasonably high levels. I think I wound up with 11 will power and 4 memory? Something hideous like that. Thank god for the learning skills and implants!

I also wound up with a much higher Charisma than an archura created today would have, but that's not so bad, because I've invested quite a bit in mission running skills that rely heavily on charisma.

There is one way, and only one way, to remedy a 'this race is the best in all situations' problem: make the not as appealing stats more appealing. You cannot change existing skills, you cannot change existing bloodlines.

All you can do is add NEW skills that are important and that use the neglected attributes. The current shunning of charisma and willpower are completley responsble for the 'archura is best' problem. If CCP were to release a lot of 'must have' skills that were willpower/cha then this problem would solve itself.


Gaius Sejanus
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.11.28 18:52:00 - [29]
 

New leadership skills, Cha/Will, Cha/Mem based, that work on your own ship's crew, so they don't need a gang to operate, and it benefits the individual player to get it, rather than "only best bonus works" as the current leadership skills operate.

Make 'em a real nightmare, like start at rank 7 and go up from there. Obviously whatever bonuses they provide will be pretty small, but just look at small bonuses between modules to see how much people are willing to give up for every last drop.

b1zz
Posted - 2007.11.29 11:09:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: b1zz on 29/11/2007 11:15:02
Originally by: Epidote
to be honest .... you forgot a lot of things.

1] Caracter path are not so easy defined

For exemple take a scientist with only 1 race ship set stoped at Cruiser
And please also dont take into account all the skills that are only usefull on capital ...

A trader would have a minimum on spaceship commands ... to go to freighter that s all. You have to remove a lot of things in the race ship set.
And some people only fly Interceptors, cover opes or Logistics for exemple and dont care about other skills they dont need.

2] You consider life time character

Ok you consider character will all skills ... which indicate a 50 years character certainly. It would be better to consider a 25M sp points path and try to find how much time each bloodline take to (if there is an optim path)

3] Your calcul is wrong

I am sorry but for two reasons
You count the point above the optimal and under the optimal the same way ...
You said that charisma is useless (yeah perhaps) but you count the same way a difference of 1 in charisma than of 1 in int even if int represent 30% of your skill list ...

Explain me why when Per and Will represent more than 50% having two points above your optimal count the same way as being under



Pretty much every thing Sejet says. You are correct. How indicative these tables are is debatable. There are other considerations aswell, such as the order you plan to train your skills. However, all I wanted was to general idea. I wanted to make an informed decision rather than a complete guess. I factored in the same assumptions Gaius Sejanus pointed out in his post when I rolled my first character, reducing Perception and increasing Intelligence, but I rejected the 9 9 9 9 3 setup making an informed guess based on these tables that it's still better to have perception higher than Intelligence. If I had more precise knowledge of the skills I wanted when first rolling I would have investigated it but I'm a newb. This is the best I could do with the knowledge I've got atm.

Originally by: Gaius Sejanus
I wouldn't mind seeing this list made with not just cutting out titan skills, but all capital ship skills (so no adv ship command, <race> dreadnaught, jump drive ops, capital shield operation, etc, et al). Also limit it to just one race's ships.

I'm firmly of the belief that the importance of perception is VASTLY overstated by most players, who make really unrealistic (or very dumb) assumptions about training.

A Gallente-Only or most Amarr-Only ship training computations would also let you completely drop the missile tree, further marginalizing the importance of perc.

Obviously that would require a lot of extra effort as well...a Gallente/Amarr setup would involve very minimal shield skills, and a Caldari (and somewhat Matari) setup would almost completely ignore armor skills. You'd need to fine-tune the spreadsheet quite a bit.


Can you be more specific. Choose one of the careers tables and create a list of skills and skill sets that you think would be more precise and we'll compare it to the general version. Unfortunately I do not have enough experience in the game to come up with such a list on my own. Try and keep it as general as possible. You may have to choose a race aswell. As far as I know Minmatar ships work best when the pilot has knowledge of all weapon types.

Personally I would prefer the option to at least cross train 2 racial ship sets. And I don't know what a capital ship is or what they're used for.

Originally by: dav
it is actually base 39 attributes so some of the numbers are wrong

It's 34 + 5 attributes distributed by the player. I cannot know where players are going to distribute their 5 attribute points so they were not part of the calculations. You can use the table though to decide where to distribute your 5 attribute points, just spread them as indicated by the percentage weighting indicated for your chosen career.


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