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Feng Schui
Minmatar
Cruor Evertum Dominicus
Posted - 2007.11.23 08:15:00 - [1]
 

This is why we train specific ships for, but it seems (to me at least), that drones do a better job than ships and modules do!

For example, a Vespa EC-600 has 7 point strength (10m3 drone bandwidth). A Hypnos Multi-spec, on a Kitsune (100% to ecm strength, signal dispersion 3), only has 5.52 strength.

Any ship with 50m3 drone bay and bonused weapons, can field 5 of these, and do insane DPS on top of that, whereas, a dedicated EWAR ship, has less strength than those of drones.

So.. lets say a Rokh, has a better chance to jam someone than a Kitsune (using all 5 of his ecm mods) does. Something is wrong with this imo.

Futher Bezluden
Minmatar
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.23 08:17:00 - [2]
 

EC- Drones definitely need to be reduced in strength. I have signal dispersion 4, some say that boosts their strength but don't know if it actually does. They are universally accepted as the drone for pwn and jam very effectively. Who even bothers using Painter, Web, and TD drones?

Talsha Talamar
Amarr
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
Posted - 2007.11.23 08:24:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Talsha Talamar on 23/11/2007 08:33:05
Vespa EC-600 has a sensor jamming strength of 1.5 not 7.

A full flight has 5 times a chance to jam calculated as
[sensor chaming strength 1.5] versus [sensor strength of targeted the ship].

Your numbers are totally off.

I am not used to do math for ECM and short on time,
but a 2 sensor strength jam versus a sacrilege,
has a 13% chance to jam each cycle.

Five 2 point jammers have a 51% chance to jam it per cycle.
Due to the math five 1.5 point jammers,
probably have a much smaller chance more around 30 to 40%.

One 7.2 point jammer has an 48% chance to jam the Sac per cycle.

Using a full flight of mediums,
does not sacrifice only one mid slot,
but an very large amount of dps on cruiser sized ships,
if we talk T2 drones with good skills.

You can shoot down the drones in a gang easily.

So where are your ballance issues ?

Incantare
Posted - 2007.11.23 08:40:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Feng Schui

For example, a Vespa EC-600 has 7 point strength (10m3 drone bandwidth).



Laughing

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.11.23 09:14:00 - [5]
 

not to mention, you have travelling time, limited range and are only able to perma jam one target at a time. ecm drones are fine. STFU and stop whining!

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.11.23 10:05:00 - [6]
 

ECM drones are extremely popular, and will only become more so once the drone nerfs are in, due to the expense of T2 drones, and the low cost of ECM drones in addition to their effectiveness.

I use ECM drones as throw away drones. I can't afford to get a flight of five Hammerhead IIs popped every fight, but I can afford to lose EC-600s all day long. How many EC-600s do you get for the cost of one Hammerhead II? Too many for me to bother doing the math.

The other day I lose a Hyperion to a Maelstrom and Taranis while fighting on a gate. It was the Mael and the Taranis and the gate guns vs. my Hype.

I had ECM drones, and so did the Mael. The gate guns killed all my ECM drones, and I lost my Hype do to one thing: I was out jammed. The ECM drones of the Mael were luckier than mine were (while they lived), and I died with the Mael at about 10% structure.

Had I not been jammed 5-6 times during the fight, the Mael would have been dead, as well as the Taranis. ECM drones will be the new general purpose drone after Trinity goes live, because they're cheap and far too effective.

Dragonis Mendez
Unknown Designation
Posted - 2007.11.23 10:29:00 - [7]
 

I'm sure the taranis killed your drones not the gatesentries...thats your best bet against ecm drone.....dont fly alone ;)
You relayed on your ecm drone and your enemy was prepared..so you died...

now days fitting a smartbomb becomes more and more popular. Against these drone you can do sth and once they are blopped they are gone...fitting against an EW ship is not that easy

inza onoa
Cruentus Invicta
Posted - 2007.11.23 12:06:00 - [8]
 

/not signed

Talsa explains it very logical me thinks. ECM drones are fine as they are. For drone users they exchange a lot of dps for the ecm drones, it isn't really that EC drones are overpowered in any way

Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Not Found.
Posted - 2007.11.23 16:38:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Sky Marshal on 23/11/2007 16:38:56

In a 1vs1 in SiSi, you have nearly no chance to be able to shoot ECM drones. They don't let you the time.

My Cerberus has one more point in his sensor strength that a Sacrilege, but in all tries against Deimos/ECM, I had only 20 seconds per minut to attack. I don't still know if it is because ECM drones are too efficient, or me totally unlucky.

I have to learn FOF missiles quickly, as Gallente will be motivated to use them with the nerf.

Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2007.11.23 17:43:00 - [10]
 

Ok lets say we let ECM drones take a hit to their jamming strength can we then let them be effected by drone interfacing.

Also to the hyperion pilot your moaning because a maelstrom, taranis and gate guns managed to kill you but you still got the mael well into structure. Is it just me or is that argueably unbalanced in the first place seriously you should be happy with a ship that can sustain that much damage while still putting out that much DPS.

Vim
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2007.11.23 17:50:00 - [11]
 

Its basicly something like this:
5 EC-900's 2 pts each/20s

Sac: 15pts strength.

2/15 =0.13, 13% chance to jam/drone /cycle

Now since its 5 drones and probability
1-0.13=0.87

0.87*0.87*0.87*0.87*0.87=0.498 =0.5
=50% chance to jam a sac every 20 seconds using five heavy ecm drones.

Now if we were using ec-600 instead, thats 1.5/15=10% chance
0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9=0.59 =41% chance to jam a sac every 20 seconds

This is as simple as I want to count atm but yes, they are good. But you also lose alot of damage for cruisers/bcs hoping they'll get a cycle in. Sometimes, they wont for ages, sometimes you'll have someone jammed a minute.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.11.23 18:34:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Dragonis Mendez
I'm sure the taranis killed your drones not the gatesentries...thats your best bet against ecm drone.....dont fly alone ;)
You relayed on your ecm drone and your enemy was prepared..so you died...

now days fitting a smartbomb becomes more and more popular. Against these drone you can do sth and once they are blopped they are gone...fitting against an EW ship is not that easy


If you don't play Eve, stop talking about subjects about which you know nothing about.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.11.23 18:39:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Random Womble
Ok lets say we let ECM drones take a hit to their jamming strength can we then let them be effected by drone interfacing.

Also to the hyperion pilot your moaning because a maelstrom, taranis and gate guns managed to kill you but you still got the mael well into structure. Is it just me or is that argueably unbalanced in the first place seriously you should be happy with a ship that can sustain that much damage while still putting out that much DPS.


5x Medium ECM drones jammed me 5x @ 30 seconds each which is 300 seconds of a fight that lasted maybe 6 minutes. That's the majority of the time. Like 80%. The Maelstrom and Taranis pilot were incompetent, but the gate guns and ECM drones saved them with luck. Otherwise the Mael pilot would have been dead in the first minute or so of the fight, and then I would have killed the Taranis.

When 5x EC-600s can keep a Tier 3 BS with it's superior sensor strength jammed for so much of a fight, it's overpowered.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.11.23 19:40:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus


5x Medium ECM drones jammed me 5x @ 30 seconds each ...




Originally by: Bellum Eternus

If you don't play Eve, stop talking about subjects about which you know nothing about.




Quote:

When 5x EC-600s can keep a Tier 3 BS with it's superior sensor strength jammed for so much of a fight, it's overpowered.


So you're basically just whining that you got pwnt because someone thought to bring a bit of ewar to a fight?

Got it.

Liang

Merii Kha'sen
Amarr
Unity Exploration
Posted - 2007.11.23 21:30:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Merii Kha''sen on 23/11/2007 21:30:00
ROFL, this topic amuses me. I fly Amarr with their crappy sensor str, and I've been up against 10 EC-600s (from 2 enemy battleships). My Armageddon got jammed once for the whole fight (about 5 minutes). Once. Please gb2/nerfwhine/

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.11.23 21:37:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Bellum Eternus


5x Medium ECM drones jammed me 5x @ 30 seconds each ...




Originally by: Bellum Eternus

If you don't play Eve, stop talking about subjects about which you know nothing about.




Quote:

When 5x EC-600s can keep a Tier 3 BS with it's superior sensor strength jammed for so much of a fight, it's overpowered.


So you're basically just whining that you got pwnt because someone thought to bring a bit of ewar to a fight?

Got it.

Liang


I'm saying that for their cost (fitting wise, etc.) they're far more effective than any other form of ewar. Damp drones suck, neutralizer drones are ok. ECM drones are ridiculously good.

Archivian Specialatus
Amarr
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2007.11.23 21:37:00 - [17]
 

drones arent over powered. Just looking at the numbers tells you that.

the simplest way to look at it if you dont want to work it out is this.

5 drones = 5 rolls at jamming someone

a jamming ship is going to have at least 5 jammers, and bonuses and skills and modules to boost them.

Each of your rolls will have a better chance than each drone.

Kal Shakai
Appetite 4 Destruction
Posted - 2007.11.23 22:17:00 - [18]
 

I find this thread quite amusing.

ECM drones have been with us for a while. It's amazing that now, all of the sudden, people want them nerfed. You see them used a lot more now, even on Tranquility, prior to the upcoming changes.

I admit that I use them a lot in combat. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. That's the nature of dice rolls.

They have let me beat ships I normally couldn't and they have let me escape certain death. Other times, I have cursed their ineffectiveness.

It's a tough call to pack them over damage drones. That's why I only pack them on ships that put out a disproportionate amount of damage from my guns. If not, then once they get popped you are at a serious disadvantage.

I think they are fairly well balanced.

Vrenth
Gallente
The Program
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2007.11.23 22:36:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Feng Schui
This is why we train specific ships for, but it seems (to me at least), that drones do a better job than ships and modules do!

For example, a Vespa EC-600 has 7 point strength (10m3 drone bandwidth). A Hypnos Multi-spec, on a Kitsune (100% to ecm strength, signal dispersion 3), only has 5.52 strength.

Any ship with 50m3 drone bay and bonused weapons, can field 5 of these, and do insane DPS on top of that, whereas, a dedicated EWAR ship, has less strength than those of drones.

So.. lets say a Rokh, has a better chance to jam someone than a Kitsune (using all 5 of his ecm mods) does. Something is wrong with this imo.


Let me explain it this way. 5 attack drones with great skills does the damage of about 2-4 high slot weapons on corresponding ships. ECM drones should have the effective jamming strength of 2-4 mid slots full of ECM, should they not?

Dominator9987
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.11.24 00:16:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Feng Schui
This is why we train specific ships for, but it seems (to me at least), that drones do a better job than ships and modules do!

For example, a Vespa EC-600 has 7 point strength (10m3 drone bandwidth). A Hypnos Multi-spec, on a Kitsune (100% to ecm strength, signal dispersion 3), only has 5.52 strength.

Any ship with 50m3 drone bay and bonused weapons, can field 5 of these, and do insane DPS on top of that, whereas, a dedicated EWAR ship, has less strength than those of drones.

So.. lets say a Rokh, has a better chance to jam someone than a Kitsune (using all 5 of his ecm mods) does. Something is wrong with this imo.


how about unnerf the other ewar...

Archivian Specialatus
Amarr
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2007.11.24 00:51:00 - [21]
 



Let me explain it this way. 5 attack drones with great skills does the damage of about 2-4 high slot weapons on corresponding ships. ECM drones should have the effective jamming strength of 2-4 mid slots full of ECM, should they not?


Jamming doesnt work that way. for a start you always have to look at it 1 jammert to 1 drone. the rest dont matter. your only rolling one dice at a sensor strengh not 3 or 4 or 5

Also, you can get a multi spec up to strength 10.5 ( I think higher actually, but i would have to check that) and from a range of over 120km. Drones dont pull that off. So if your not doing this then you dont have enough skills for what your trying to pull off. (like getting your first battleship, and only later realising your a big expensive target without the skills to use it properly) 3rd. If your in a ship built for jamming, and you are being jammed by...... an EOS. and he kills you, then your just playing very badly.

Drones are fine. They are good at what they do, but there not over powered. Also an ECCM will make drones almost useless, and jamers still do well against an eccm especially on racials.

ITTigerClawIK
Amarr
Galactic Rangers
Galactic-Rangers
Posted - 2007.11.24 02:01:00 - [22]
 

how about insted of NERFING them how about we BOOST ECCM and Backup arrays... this way... no new nerf ^_^ everyones happy

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2007.11.24 02:35:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Cailais on 24/11/2007 02:35:35
If you nerf one module thats at the top of everyones 'must fit list', inevitabley what ever was in 2nd place will rise to the top.

Players seeing ECM nerfed, then Damps look for the next best thing. The next best thing is EW drones. Trouble is very few playes fit with any sort of defense in mind, so ECCM (mid and high slot) gets left off most people ships.

Thats why EW is so powerful, not because there are no counters to it - but because no one fits them.

EW drones are nasty, but nerf them and you'll see damp drones, nerf them and you'll see neut drones etc etc etc.

Drones remain vulnerable to a non jammed ship (say your wing man) popping them or by smart bombs. They drastically reduce the available dps to the ships user aswell.

I hear you can use FoF missiles aswell...

C.


Yukisa
Posted - 2007.11.24 03:43:00 - [24]
 

5 heavy drones can do ~310 dps. That's more than a lot of ship missile or turret firepower. Or around 3-4 BS sized weapons (ie. high slots).

5 heavy jamming drone is less effective than specialized mid slot ecm modules. FIVE heavy drones (125m3) for 1-2 mid or 3-4 high slot and you people think it's overpowered?

A noob in a BB will perma jam several people come the changes. Start fitting ECCM cos since damps/td are nerfed to hell, ECM is making a come back in force.

OP: Whining about stuff you have no idea about .. EC-600 is 1.5, compared to the multispec 5.52, or specialized 10+.


Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2007.11.24 03:58:00 - [25]
 

ECMs not making a come back. Pre nerf everyone fitted at least 1 ECM module (prob multi spec). Post nerf and & they're rubbish on anything other than the caldari EW ships.

Caldari are getting a pvp 'oompf' as they will have the better EW ships however.

C.


Buyerr
Posted - 2007.11.24 05:58:00 - [26]
 

jamming drones are just stupid.. .drones are just stupid ...

unless they give them a power grid and cpu fitting req they are just pathetically overpowered and all diverse, and can change in the middle of space.. ....

goddamn stupidly made...


 

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