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Lil Mule
Posted - 2007.11.27 14:25:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: mallina

Heavy dictors are awesome too. For those complaining that the 'infinate point' will suddenly make low-sec off-limits to haulers, I don't really think much is going to change. You can pop most T1 haulers with a single sensor-boosted Zealot before they're able to warp anyway and BRs will simply be able to warp before they're even locked, plus always has that MWD in the unlikely event they'd get scrambled (a BR that relies 100% on warp strength deserves to die). That, and it's already possible to fit multiple points to a ship specifically to counter stab*****s.


1) I dont think anyone is complaining about T1 haulers. T1 haulers are supposed to be weak, they are T1, and well, haulers. However, I will not be running my Blockade runner down through Lowsec, nosec with the HIC's roaming around. The risk was already high with Interdictors, couple that with the HIC's, no thanks.
2) Putting stabs on your blockade runner wont do crap with all of the bubbles floating around space. You've got dictors, HIC's, and then of course the warp scramblers too. The only option my poor little blockade runner has is to cloak when coming through a gate on which there is a bubble. And you can bet, that they will drop their drones and start sweeping space to find my slow moving hauler..and POP. Therefore I do think there will be an impact on low-sec haulage. Perhaps however that's what CCP wants. Perhaps they want manufacturing to take place more in 0.0 instead, and to limit hauling because:
a) Limit the amount of traffic flowing up and down the pipe (lessens server strain) and
b) If there is a supply of items in no sec, more pilots are likely to stay there, and others may join, especially if there are items manufactured in no sec that may not be available in high sec. Creating a viable market in no-sec may be an important goal to CCP. I'd need to see some more statistics regarding player travel, and purchase of goods to determine if that would be a feasible strategy.

LM

Vitaki
Rens 911
Posted - 2007.11.27 16:49:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: Lil Mule
Not to double post here but..

The reason why they are making these changes is so that large scale fleet combats at 200 + KM's can no longer happen (Look at the nerf to the Raven). The servers cannot support the 200+ man fleet battles at range. They have tried everything they can think of in order to squeeze more performance out of the hardware and the software they have. The problem is - they are running one environment with 30 000 + people, and the hardware and software cannot keep up with the demand placed on it by large scale fleet combats. So what do they decide to do? Nerf it. That's great for all of us who have spent months and months training for.....Large scale PVP Fleet Combats with sniping ships..

They want smaller, tighter combat. The scripts will help them achieve this so its not possible to have huge ranged fleet battles any longer.
If you think this stops blobbing then you are completely wrong. All it does is make combats shorter range. Everyone will still blob the hell out of each other with this change. Just at 100km instead of 150-200.

If they want to stop blobbing then you have to implement something that screws things up when there are too many people on the same grid. Something like a ECM storm that stops anyone but 5 people from targeting anyone when there are too many people on grid or something.

Elantte
Frozen Salvation
Posted - 2007.11.27 17:20:00 - [243]
 

Originally by: Vitaki
Originally by: Lil Mule
Not to double post here but..

The reason why they are making these changes is so that large scale fleet combats at 200 + KM's can no longer happen (Look at the nerf to the Raven). The servers cannot support the 200+ man fleet battles at range. They have tried everything they can think of in order to squeeze more performance out of the hardware and the software they have. The problem is - they are running one environment with 30 000 + people, and the hardware and software cannot keep up with the demand placed on it by large scale fleet combats. So what do they decide to do? Nerf it. That's great for all of us who have spent months and months training for.....Large scale PVP Fleet Combats with sniping ships..

They want smaller, tighter combat. The scripts will help them achieve this so its not possible to have huge ranged fleet battles any longer.
If you think this stops blobbing then you are completely wrong. All it does is make combats shorter range. Everyone will still blob the hell out of each other with this change. Just at 100km instead of 150-200.

If they want to stop blobbing then you have to implement something that screws things up when there are too many people on the same grid. Something like a ECM storm that stops anyone but 5 people from targeting anyone when there are too many people on grid or something.


QFT

I see no practical way to completely get rid of blobs. And a word on blobs... if your corp or alliance is doing an op of some kind and you are on and available then you should do your part and join the gang or fleet. However, I do agree that sometimes this can get a little crazy and you might have a fleet engagement of 200 vs 20... that just seems like unnecessary over-kill doesn't it?

Vitaki
Rens 911
Posted - 2007.11.27 18:26:00 - [244]
 

Originally by: Elantte
QFT

I see no practical way to completely get rid of blobs. And a word on blobs... if your corp or alliance is doing an op of some kind and you are on and available then you should do your part and join the gang or fleet. However, I do agree that sometimes this can get a little crazy and you might have a fleet engagement of 200 vs 20... that just seems like unnecessary over-kill doesn't it?

Defending space is an act of prevention. You want to show that you are so strong that no one would want to come through and try to gank your farmers. So if any time a gang of 10 or 20 people shows up you swarm your space with 200 combat pilots maybe that same gang will decide to go somewhere easier to get ganks.

The only way I can see that you would get rid of blobs would be that ECM storm I was talking about. Jam everyone except for 50 people in system when it gets over 200 pilots. And then every minute or two it randomly reassigns the unjammed people.

Elantte
Frozen Salvation
Posted - 2007.11.27 18:42:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: Vitaki
Originally by: Elantte
QFT

I see no practical way to completely get rid of blobs. And a word on blobs... if your corp or alliance is doing an op of some kind and you are on and available then you should do your part and join the gang or fleet. However, I do agree that sometimes this can get a little crazy and you might have a fleet engagement of 200 vs 20... that just seems like unnecessary over-kill doesn't it?

Defending space is an act of prevention. You want to show that you are so strong that no one would want to come through and try to gank your farmers. So if any time a gang of 10 or 20 people shows up you swarm your space with 200 combat pilots maybe that same gang will decide to go somewhere easier to get ganks.

The only way I can see that you would get rid of blobs would be that ECM storm I was talking about. Jam everyone except for 50 people in system when it gets over 200 pilots. And then every minute or two it randomly reassigns the unjammed people.


That ECM storm does sound interesting but I have a few questions on how it would work. Will motherships and titans be uneffected because of their resistance to EWAR? Will it only be in 0.0 space or will it also be in Empire (love to see how it would work in Jita Razz)? Will it effect all ships in system including people who are not engaged or just a portion of the members of a gang if their numbers exceed a certain limit? Will the ECM storm have a certain strengh that some ships can try to overcome or will it not matter and if it cycles to a certain ship will it be a 100% chance of success?

CEO Saffron
Posted - 2007.11.28 02:04:00 - [246]
 

The drone changes make sence although i think the EOS has been butchered when perhaphs changing the hybrid bonus to optimal range with a slight reduction in badwidth would have been better as it would serve its function as a fleet ship better while not being able to have the incredible dps it currently enjoys.

The values given on the scripts are bad plain and simple although i like the idea. If im going to sacrifice my targetting range bonus on a module i expect the module to at least perform SLIGHTLY BETTER than the existing t2 stats for locking time! These scripts as they are represent a massive nerf to sensor boosters and tracking enhancers.......

I thought the point of eve was simplicity now we have heat and scripts to manage these changes will increase complexity.

Hows about tweaking the scripts and giving us something we actually want like the ability to change all our crystals / ammo in one go [something thats been asked for year after year]. Or telling us why you wont make this change.

Finally the scrambling module on the hy interdictor, its good from the super cap point of view im also assuming that the same penalties apply on that module as in its bubble mode meaning that a blockade runner should be able to outrun that ship solo and you certainly shouldnt be able to get away if he has buddies there to web you.

[queue the flames]


MrTripps
Gallente
Hedonistic Squirrels
Posted - 2007.11.28 15:40:00 - [247]
 

After training for Gal PVP for about two years I'm so happy that CCP has made the only two non-suck Gal ships the Ishtar and the Domi.

Does Tabula Rasa have a free trial?

goomba freehand
Polaris Project
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.29 00:52:00 - [248]
 

and once again the devs have destroyed the game of eve. Why not just put us all in noob ships cause everytime i train for something you nerf it and what was wrong with the drones every ship that could carry the dornes BS and under didnt have a gun bonus so now a myrmidon is going to go pop in no time. Then lets nerf damps so now my recon is crap so there goes that ship. Oh and now my hauler is crap since the ehavy dictors can scram it. So for gallente it is a BS or noob ship way to go ccp whats next lets nerf blasters cause they are too strong compared to rockets and while we are at it nerf armor rep cause it is unfair that i can repair my armor SadSadSad

Ummon Mu
Posted - 2007.11.30 10:09:00 - [249]
 

Oh and one thing: If you really feel the urgent need to put these ARM scripts into use, then please make it module intern, without another thing clogging my cargo and making it more cluttered. I already have to carry 4 different ammo types, cap boosters, i have to make sure i have the right drones with me... ok, thats managable, but now you want me to carry 4-6 or more scripts with me, (more things to forget and to say "sh-t" when camping a gate) and then imagine how funny it would be if you have to change 8 highslots and 6 medslots because you changed position on the battlefield and everything is already lagged out and you get wonderful sideeffects like modules not stopping reloading or not loading anything.

wow.

not everything has to be implemented just because its there.

Roy Gordon
Caldari
Caldari Advanced Response Division
Power Of 3
Posted - 2007.11.30 15:49:00 - [250]
 

What were the reasons behind not only these changes, but all the other major changes coming in the new patch?
Was it people petitioning CCP, the number of pages of posts clamouring for a particular nerf or change?
If it was based on players themselves demanding these changes, exactly how many players demanded them? 10, 100, 1000, 2000?
I would suggest that had even if 2000 players had been very vocal on the forums demanding changes, that is only 1%, yes, 1% of the 200,000 CCP is claiming have subscriptions to EvE. In that case, what about the other 198,000 players who obviously had no problem with the game and wanted it left alone?

Lincoln Armm
Posted - 2007.11.30 17:57:00 - [251]
 


While the idea of tuning modules for a specific purpose has possibilities. I don't understand why they started with a group of modules that even with two bonuses are pretty underpowered. An obvious problem with EV's game design is that as the number of posssible modules goes up over time, the exclusionary cost of equiping a module increases. This means that marginal modules see less and less use.

In order to counter this Rigs were introduced in ordeer to ease up some o f the pressure. Multi-use modules are another way to address this issue. Potentially a single module could replace severla less popular ones. THis implementation doesn't do that . In fact it applies preassure the other way since these modules no longer do two jobs effectivly.

I guess it does reduce module exclusionary cost some by effectivly removing several modules from the game but I hardly think thats what CCP has in mind.

Big Bit
Posted - 2007.11.30 20:36:00 - [252]
 

Why the T2 cruise (Ishtar) have bandwidth for heavy drones 125 Mbit/s but T2 battlecruiser (Eos) don't? It's little odd. BC it should be better than cruiser!

Vivian Porter
Posted - 2007.12.01 14:13:00 - [253]
 

Edited by: Vivian Porter on 01/12/2007 14:25:59



OK ... am I the only one who's noticed this:

"Unlike unscripted Warp Disruption Field Generators, the use of Warp Disruption Field Generators loaded with Focused Warp Disruption ARM scripts is permitted in empire space. This enables them to tackle super capitals in lowsec."

The Dev used lowsec as an example of where these new devices might be used but he said they would work in Empire Space.

Which according to this:

Attacks in Empire Space

Includes High Sec as well.

(Yes, if they are sloppy and stupid Concord will get them but then ... if they are NOT sloppy and stupid there are all kinds of ways they can already get you in High Sec, note the original purpose of that link ...).

I haven't been playing all that long ... but the more I have played ... the more I've gotten the feeling that EVE was created by pirates for pirates ... with the rest of us just there to provide someone to rob and kill ... (can't be a pirate unless you've got someone to rob and kill ...).

Anyone with a brain is going to see right away - that this change is NOT going to be used in the method described, (except of course once in a blue moon), and will NOT be used mainly to bring down those oh so elusive Blockade Runners. This setup will be used primarily on normal ships that have until now relied on using stabs to get around without getting ganked.

Yes ... I hear all the pirates out there just drooling over these things denegrating the people protesting this change. The Pirates are making fun of them because they know that the people protesting are right - which is just why the pirates want these things.


For those of you who haven't noticed ... pirates aren't real big on balance and fair play ...

Sir GankaLot, the stereotypical pirate poster, (forgive me if that is really someone's name ...), protests his innocence but is not to be believed ...

These devices are a very bad idea - and should not be implemented.

Don't try to tweak them to save them - just don't do it.

Zorok
Cosmic Cimmerians
Usurper.
Posted - 2007.12.01 20:06:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Vivian Porter
Edited by: Vivian Porter on 01/12/2007 14:25:59
"Unlike unscripted Warp Disruption Field Generators, the use of Warp Disruption Field Generators loaded with Focused Warp Disruption ARM scripts is permitted in empire space. This enables them to tackle super capitals in lowsec."

...
I haven't been playing all that long ... but the more I have played ... the more I've gotten the feeling that EVE was created by pirates for pirates ... with the rest of us just there to provide someone to rob and kill ... (can't be a pirate unless you've got someone to rob and kill ...).

...
Yes ... I hear all the pirates out there just drooling over these things denegrating the people protesting this change. The Pirates are making fun of them because they know that the people protesting are right - which is just why the pirates want these things.




Actually Vivian, you are correct in your assumptions about CCP. My friend had told me a story about how Eve came to be the "Happy Pirate Game TM" that it is today. According to his story, Eve started out mainly as a mining and ratting game with a few missions thrown in. The game was developed originally on CD-ROM and distributed. The lead game director wanted to keep the focus on this aspect of the game however some of the other devs disagreed because the game was so boring. What happened is that CCP took over development of the game and bought it from the publisher. With the original head developer out of the picture, the other devs could now shape the game into a PvP game.

The heart of the problem is the fact that the engine was never really designed for PvP and was designed more as an industrial/economic based game. As few examples of this are how the game engine doesn't model actual physics in spaces. In real life, there would be no optimal range for guns that use ammo. Bullets in space will travel forever. Also, in the game, weapons from the ship will go right through asteroids and hit ships that are behind them. There is no collision detection for weapons. The same goes for ships that are behind other ships in the line of fire- the shots of an enemy can pass through other ships in way of it's line of fire and magically hit ships behind it. These are a few cracks in the system.

With that being said however, this MMO is probably the best you'll find on the market to date if you are looking for in-depth gameplay. I don't always agree with these devs decisions but it seems they are trying to keep the game interesting and fresh and not letting the game rot. With that being said, I believe that some things, such as the nerf to sensor damps even with usage of these scripts, is not exactly the right direction.

Personally, I plan to try to put ECM on my Lachesis and use the low-slot ECM boosters and use cap booster modules to provide the power to run the systems while eventually training for an ECM based EW ship. With ECM, if you have a high enough strength, you can defeat another ship's ability to target no matter what. With damps, if a ship can get close enough to you, your damps are useless and from what I've read, Damps won't even allow a Lach to get within web range of an unboosted Raven now even with usage of these scripts.

Hopefully CCP will start listening to the majority of the players here and stop making toys to give them that pirate edge while they are camping gates (Yes CCP love to PvP and a good deal of them pirate). What I gather is that they have this knee-jerk reaction to how players defeat them and then they change the rules because they didn't imagine a module could be used in that manner such as WCS allowing industrial players to escape from gate camps. CCP didn't like the fact that industrials were so hard to catch so they created this new ship class and gave it an I-Win button vs. haulers. Anyhow guess we'll see what CCP does with this in the future. Maybe they'll make T2 ARM scripts perhaps.

Alteris Domond
Posted - 2007.12.01 20:11:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Big Bit
Why the T2 cruise (Ishtar) have bandwidth for heavy drones 125 Mbit/s but T2 battlecruiser (Eos) don't? It's little odd. BC it should be better than cruiser!




The ishtar?? have u taken a look at the ship at all??? read it's specs. It's a DRONE PLATFORM. it boosts drones over even normal weapons. It's only way to dps is to use them. plus being a HAC, it's essentially a pocket battleship so.....

Colette Reynard
Gallente
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Posted - 2007.12.02 04:39:00 - [256]
 

Scripting - BAD idea, terrible idea, no way we need any more stuff to micro-manage during a lagfest battle.

Bandwidth - Horrible idea, a savage nerf of the Gallente. You render months of our training time worthless in one fell swoop.

HIC - Horrid, awful, evil idea. The infinite warp jam strength is just totally wrong. Everything in Eve has always been about numbers, and now you give one ship an automatic "I Win" button, that bypasses all the numbers?

Vivian Porter
Posted - 2007.12.02 07:48:00 - [257]
 

Zorok, thanks for confirming my suspicions.

I guess the sad thing for me ... is that what I came here for ... was factional warfare.

I come from Planetside - where the whole basis of the game was factional conflict between three empires. I saw EVE had 4 and thought ... OK ... that's cool ... no more of the two against one battles that PS had degenerated into.

I did however get a warning from Aura when she welcomed me to the world of Piracy & Capitalism ... and I gradually realized that all the concern evidenced by my NPC Agents that "the [insert faction name here] were reving up their war machine" was just window dressing.

I guess I find Corporate Warfare ... essentially ... petty bickering and the existence of Pirates evidence of factional weakness - as no strong faction would permit it within their own space by their own people against their own people. Letters of Marque - yes. Going out and pirating the enemies ships - yes. But to have your industrialists greatest enemies being your own people ... is absurd. But with a 15 minute statute of limitations on theft ... and no interference by the police against it ... more experienced players are allowed to bully their less experienced faction mates with impunity. Yes, they could go to 0.0 space and have it out but why bother with going through all those jump gates when they are free to wreak havoc close to home?

I saw some brief discussion of factional warfare a month or so ago. But ... the dev's were going to start out limiting it to 0.0 space and have it something people could opt in or out of.

The end result of that is that the same pirates who are to lazy to travel to 0.0 to find a fair fight will keep right on bullying new people in their own space. If they went to 0.0 ... well ... they might just end up in a fair fight ... Pirates ... don't want a fair fight.

So ... it's odd ... that the real appeal of this game ... is all the intricate economics that you say it was developed for in the first place where as the PVP that we have because it's what the Dev's wanted ... is actually ... just silly squabbling compared to real factional warfare.

The odd thing about PS ... was that even though it was supposed to be a game about strategic conflict on a planetary scale ... all the Dev's wanted to do in the end was duel ... and so that's what the game degenerated into ... The one's who'd created it and cared about the strategy elements had all left as it was gutted by SOE ...

Oh well. It's been an interesting experience and I've got nothing better on the horizon ... so I'll stick around for a while ... but my hopes for a game of factional warfare are not what they were ...

Of course ... from what I've seen of the numbers involved ... The Gallente could trounce all three of the other factions combined. If that's an incorrect conclusion ... or if anyone's got a list that displays comparative factional populations that would be interesting to see.

I guess the really sad thing here is ... that I believe that the dev's know exactly what is going to happen because of these things and were just covering up their own drooling ambitions to get their hands on them themselves. Must be nice to play a game where you can tweak it to your own advantage however you happen to like it.

*shrug*

Big Bit
Posted - 2007.12.02 14:19:00 - [258]
 

Originally by: Alteris Domond
Originally by: Big Bit
Why the T2 cruise (Ishtar) have bandwidth for heavy drones 125 Mbit/s but T2 battlecruiser (Eos) don't? It's little odd. BC it should be better than cruiser!


The ishtar?? have u taken a look at the ship at all??? read it's specs. It's a DRONE PLATFORM. it boosts drones over even normal weapons. It's only way to dps is to use them. plus being a HAC, it's essentially a pocket battleship so.....

Then make Eos DRONE PLATFORM too. lol! If you donít want use drones switch to Astarte. What is purpose of whole ship class that canít use the strongest point of race?

Valadeya uthanaras
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.12.03 21:53:00 - [259]
 

Edited by: Valadeya uthanaras on 03/12/2007 21:53:51
you clueless eos whiner,

do you actually tought the eos was balanced
LaughingLaughingLaughing

to be cunstructive, if those gallente whiner really want a drone boat:

3 high slot, no turret slot/no missile slot
125 drone bandwith
same low and med

powergrid to fit dual MAR, MWD, med injector only!!!

and of course, a 5% drone domage bonus instead of the bonus to turrets

still gonna be a bit over the other in term of dps, but is information warfare and tank is a bit lower.
of course capacitor will need to be locked at(no more cap used by turret) and should be lowered a bit

balanced

for EWAR

pls refrain from nerfing TD, if anything all they need a boost

hence , introduce script as a way to boost them

same stat as they have on TQ
put script as they are

they will be really effective agaisnt any turret ship, but dont affect: drone, tank, lockability ,ewar , speed, missile

imo that would put the so crappy TD(trinity release) in line with the other EWAR

Alteris Domond
Posted - 2007.12.04 01:00:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Big Bit
Originally by: Alteris Domond
Originally by: Big Bit
Why the T2 cruise (Ishtar) have bandwidth for heavy drones 125 Mbit/s but T2 battlecruiser (Eos) don't? It's little odd. BC it should be better than cruiser!


The ishtar?? have u taken a look at the ship at all??? read it's specs. It's a DRONE PLATFORM. it boosts drones over even normal weapons. It's only way to dps is to use them. plus being a HAC, it's essentially a pocket battleship so.....

Then make Eos DRONE PLATFORM too. lol! If you donít want use drones switch to Astarte. What is purpose of whole ship class that canít use the strongest point of race?


the Eos is command, fleet flavor. So it's major point is to fly out and command. If your general is shooting and dpsin' in a fleet battle, or your flying that ship as part of a solo ratting fun time..... well lrn to fly nub. Your Domi or Myrm is a much better gallente ship to mission/rat/drone in.

Colette Reynard
Gallente
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Posted - 2007.12.04 17:31:00 - [261]
 

Plainly nobody is listening here. I think they just create these threads to keep us from posting on the forums, where our discontent would be obvious to the outside world.

No dev answers anything here, no dev reads anything here, nobody cares. Oh we might, if we're lucky, get another of those snippy, snotty little "nothing we've read here changes our minds" notes.

But CCP is obviously determined to ram this up our collective ass, regardless of what we think, do, or say.

This game is rapidly going the way of Anarchy Online, where the fun is all nerfed out of the game for anybody who isn't a hardcore PVP'er.

Osric Wuscfrea
Gallente
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.12.08 12:01:00 - [262]
 

Scripting essentially nerfs mission running ships. You now make me fit two identical modules to get the same effect. You might as well simply have made a tracking module and a range one. Pointless...Evil or Very Mad

SnakeByte86
Posted - 2007.12.09 00:01:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: Osric Wuscfrea
Scripting essentially nerfs mission running ships. You now make me fit two identical modules to get the same effect. You might as well simply have made a tracking module and a range one. Pointless...Evil or Very Mad


Entire thread of people telling ccp they are wrong, ccp goes ahead release trinity anyway, breaks 1000 things, makes it on front page of gaming websites as worst patch of all time, and still no answer from devs.

Bravo.

Exteerminator
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2007.12.11 00:16:00 - [264]
 

CCP probably trying to gradually make the game more intolerable to the player base in the long run so they'll jump to the next mmorpg these goons release...

Vic Sunshine
Posted - 2007.12.22 11:39:00 - [265]
 

With cycle times of 30 seconds, the tracking computer is a perfect example of why scripts are bad for this game. In a fleet fight the situation can change in a heartbeat. Now, if you want to adapt to a changed situation, you better do it at a safe spot because you might have to wait half a minute until you can change your script.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate a challenge. Nerfing modules, giving ships stronger bonuses to modules, all fair game imho. But Scripts need to die.

Unless you reduce the cycle time of all modules scripts are used with to 5 seconds and even then they will be annoying because either way, instead of reloading 6 to 8 guns in a fleetfight, you now also need to reload 4 modules... which is not really something adding fun to this game.

killmore
Posted - 2007.12.27 00:06:00 - [266]
 

In response to the nerf I suggest to the player base that is unhappy including my self go to eve 2.0 yes jump gate evolution I have signed up for beta and my god can you imagine if they do a decent job and actually attempt to solve real problems not imaginary!!! I'm going to give the beta a go be funnier then hell when eve membership goes to 10000 and lets watch the nerf bat hit ccp employee's they'll be in the food bank thinking maybe I should have payed attention to those who payed my salary rember we choose to pay them they can't tax us!!!


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