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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2007.11.20 20:48:00 - [151]
 

Bandwidth.

Much needed mechanic, but the numbers and available options limit some ships too much. I hope that this is temporary, and that options for customizing bandwidth--for a cost, of course--are coming soon. Hopefully, sooner than Soon™. Wink

Thargor II
Amarr
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Posted - 2007.11.20 20:53:00 - [152]
 

I like the changes. I haven't really gotten to see them in action but the "nerfs" are needed. The Heavy Dictor being able to crush all that come through a gate is going to be awesome. The days of low sec motherships are at an end.

Drone bandwidth I agree with and can't really understand why a ship will now not have a huge drone bay. I think every ship that can field drones should have a large enough drone bay to launch at least 3 waves. I don't really know of any situation I have been in in PvP that I launched more than 1 wave of drones before warping off or killing the enemy.

These ARMs and Scripts are just stupid tbh. I don't think there really is a need to change that particular part of game play. Either that or allow us to set up key binds that instantly change ammo to a preset configuration w/o needlessly clicking on every damn box. Why can't I just hit a key bind that makes all of my guns and ARMS switch from 150k setup to 20k? I mean this would be great in any combat even in low lag. Just hit the key and deal with the lag 1 time as opposed to 14 times for all of your modules that will now require ammo.

Tara'Quoya Rax
Black-Sun
Posted - 2007.11.20 21:04:00 - [153]
 

Poor newbies... Laughing


I love all the changes. But I do think the warp disruptor field generator shouldn't be permitted in low sec. It will probably make the low-sec population decrease significantly. But motherships and titans shouldn't be permitted in low sec either.

Leigh Goslin
Posted - 2007.11.20 21:19:00 - [154]
 

oh my god why does CCP hate us so much... so lets see now my sensor boosters need some sort of ammo..warpdisruption feilds...can hit low sec, and your making recons the most useless things in the game.. you already nerfed amarr recons.. yes, they now suck, now your gonna nerf them again along with the rest.

is there some sort of new Dev team that is just bent on making this game the most annoying, unbearable, stupidly balanced 50/50 chance of winning at all, game.

who hired these people?
and please dear god say they are volunteers, and we are not paying them to massacre 'our' game like this.

/whinemode[OFF]

LG

Pang Grohl
Posted - 2007.11.20 21:54:00 - [155]
 

This thread contains way too much Chicken Little...

Sensor Boosting change is bad for snipers. Well yes, but insta-lock at max range is bad for everyone. So, now you solo a few less shuttles, frigates, and destroyers. If you've got friends along you can overcome the lost bonuses.

Sensor Damper change is bad for Gallente e-war pilots. Is it really that bad? You were fitting them with one of the two effects in mind, and therefore the other was overkill anyway. You can still effectively remove an opponent from a fight. Now you have to decide how best to do that.

Tracking Disruptor change is unnecessary on a limited use module. Like Sensor Dampers you're using them for one effect or the other, not both at the same time. In other words, the tracking debuff doesn't really have the same effect as the range debuff against a long range fit opponent, and vice versa for short range fit opponents.

Tracking Comp/Link change is another nerf against snipers. Like Sensor Damps and TD's you're using these to get the benefit of one effect or the other, with the unintended benefit being unnecessary. Do you really need more optimal when you're firing blasters at someone from <1000m?

Warp Disruption Focus is too powerful and makes solo low-sec gate camps sure death for everyone. Not really. The Broadsword has the potential to fit a mild tank while sensor boosted to the gills, but minimal cap support. Unsupported this ship will have low combat effectiveness, and probably only suited to engaging un-escorted industrial ships. Your hauler isn't as vulnerable as you think. They have lots of CPU, cap, and mid-slots, use them, and you'll see that you have a much higher rate of survival. If you're aim is to get away from the gate, fit e-war (ECM, sensor damps). If you want to be able to get back to the other side fit a tank and some speed.

Drone bandwidth means more flavor for drone users. The changes mentioned specifically here make sense. The Arbitrator is far more dependent on it's drones for damage output than the Vexor is. The changes to other droneships especially the up and coming T2 additions is worthy of a separate discussion entirely.

Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.20 22:10:00 - [156]
 

This Topic needs more Falloff Disruption Script.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.11.20 22:12:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/11/2007 22:12:52
CCP Zulupark says that the modules are fine, stfu and stop whining:


http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=631272&page=14#412



Liang

Ed: linky

Michael McNeil
Posted - 2007.11.20 22:17:00 - [158]
 

I stand by my statments, I DO NOT like these scripts. combat is becomming too complecated, and I predict CCP will start to lose players. If anyone wanted to make the comment, that ccp is rewritting the rules by which combat in this game is done, here it is. A nerf here or there is one thing, these scripts are a totally nother story. As a sniper pilot, I must fly a 200 to 300 million isk ship. Now you wish to make these snipers basicly become worth less. heres how.

I spend about 30 seconds changing ammo and locking hostiles, oh wait I must now change scripts too, as i must target faster, or i need to track better.... 30 more seconds pass, my support are being ripped appart by the short ranged hostiles. now I have my targets, but they are too close. I now lose my ship.

to make a long story short, this will be the big problem you WILL see in fleet battles. the idea of scripts is nice perhaps for real life where your ship captain spent twenty years leaning the ropes, and you can get the experance to know what scripts you would need. but this is a game, ment for enjoyment, too much realisem kills that enjoyment.

John McCreedy
Caldari
Eve Defence Force
Posted - 2007.11.20 22:34:00 - [159]
 

Something else just occured to me. The ARMs: You say they're like ammo? Does that mean they run out like ammo? Do we need to make them or are they to be sold on the NPC market? This, yet again, contains little to no real information and yet again, CCP doesn't listen to the player base by increasing micro management (didn't we go over this in the Carrier thread enough times?). Is it any wonder people's cynacism is growing? Rolling Eyes


Bishop 5
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.11.20 23:19:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: John McCreedy
When are you going to "balance" the game breakingly powerful nanos and speed rigs? Why is it so wrong a Command ship feilding five heavy drones yet a Cruiser doing 10K km/s is perfectly acceptable in your eyes? Are you going to provide turrets with the tracking needed and missiles the speed needed in order to counter the so-called "Speed tank", presently the most broken and ridiculously overpowered setup in Eve?




- This.
- Don't nerf Gallante Recons.
- Don't nerf Gallante Drone Boats.

Rolling Eyes

Agillious
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.11.20 23:19:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: John McCreedy
Something else just occured to me. The ARMs: You say they're like ammo? Does that mean they run out like ammo? Do we need to make them or are they to be sold on the NPC market? This, yet again, contains little to no real information and yet again, CCP doesn't listen to the player base by increasing micro management (didn't we go over this in the Carrier thread enough times?). Is it any wonder people's cynacism is growing? Rolling Eyes




Um... how about rolling your eyes at yourself, John. Reading comprehension. It should be a requirement for this game... From the DevBlog, 2nd Full Paragraph:
Quote:
Attribute Reassignment Modifier (ARM) Scripts are non-consumable charges that modify the attributes of modules they are installed in. They are installed or uninstalled just like loading and unloading ammo.


Reto
The Last Resort
Posted - 2007.11.20 23:57:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Reto on 20/11/2007 23:59:21
Dronebandwidth changes:

is it just me or is the gain of 50 dps not worth the loss of 50m³ dronebay if u compare the arbi and the vexor?

sure i can use 3 heavies but heavy drones have more than double the sig of med drones and are easier to kill with medium sized weapons while scoring only a moderate gain in dps.
whereas the arbitraitor has more overall versitality and can provide its dps over a longer period of time and at longer ranges due to the higher speeds of medium drones while losing only a moderate amout of dps compared to the vexor.

whats the comon droneboat pilot's opinion on that matter ?

Louis DelaBlanche
An Outlying Variable
Posted - 2007.11.21 00:22:00 - [163]
 

mixed thoughts about whats in this devblog, as with all the others about trinity.

Quote:
use of Warp Disruption Field Generators loaded with Focused Warp Disruption ARM scripts is permitted in empire space. This enables them to tackle super capitals in lowsec.


Theyll also be able to scramble anything else, & with the right setup theyll be able to tank sentries id imagine for quite a length of time, certainly enough for it or others to pop a hauler. Low-sec might be taking another step to becoming nothing more then an annoyance between highsec & 0.0 entrences.

Bandwidth? Good & bad, I dont really get the logic of making vexor want to use 3 heavies over 5 mediums. Personally I carry 5 mediums & 5 lights in a vexors bay, not 3 heavies.

ARMS...I already struggle to keep up with all the different things I have to watch in PvP. Micromanaging drones, modules, & now these things may mean I have less time to watch the fight itself then I already do Sad. Trinity graphics wont count for much if im busy focusing on my modules & not the battle. Is watching & enjoying the glorious explosions & graphics that come with fighting other players just something that can only be done with Fraps & a spare 10mins?

Natalie Jax
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.11.21 00:35:00 - [164]
 

I don't think scripts are going to add to the micromanagement of combat. Mainly because switching scripts during battle will be rather useless. Rather it's just one more thing to worry about having on hand at whatever station you're fitting your ship at. It's one more thing to fetch, one more thing to remember, one more thing to be missing when you're looking at the available modules in station.

It's not the micromanagement that gets my knickers in a twist, it's the added logistics. Maybe at some point down the line they'll add some scripts that make things more interesting, but I'm not optimistic. All I see is another level of complexity, and a massive addition to an already un-fun portion of the game.

Lobster Man
Pigs On Teh Wing
Posted - 2007.11.21 00:37:00 - [165]
 

revelations 3...more like nerfelations 3

Tareen Kashaar
Gyoza Society
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.11.21 01:08:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Michael McNeil
I stand by my statments, I DO NOT like these scripts. combat is becomming too complecated, and I predict CCP will start to lose players.


I predict that the probability that the sky is falling will increase by 20% from 0 to 0.

Cerzi
Posted - 2007.11.21 01:22:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Pang Grohl
This thread contains way too much Chicken Little...

Sensor Boosting change is bad for snipers. Well yes, but insta-lock at max range is bad for everyone. So, now you solo a few less shuttles, frigates, and destroyers. If you've got friends along you can overcome the lost bonuses.

Sensor Damper change is bad for Gallente e-war pilots. Is it really that bad? You were fitting them with one of the two effects in mind, and therefore the other was overkill anyway. You can still effectively remove an opponent from a fight. Now you have to decide how best to do that.

Tracking Disruptor change is unnecessary on a limited use module. Like Sensor Dampers you're using them for one effect or the other, not both at the same time. In other words, the tracking debuff doesn't really have the same effect as the range debuff against a long range fit opponent, and vice versa for short range fit opponents.

Tracking Comp/Link change is another nerf against snipers. Like Sensor Damps and TD's you're using these to get the benefit of one effect or the other, with the unintended benefit being unnecessary. Do you really need more optimal when you're firing blasters at someone from <1000m?

Warp Disruption Focus is too powerful and makes solo low-sec gate camps sure death for everyone. Not really. The Broadsword has the potential to fit a mild tank while sensor boosted to the gills, but minimal cap support. Unsupported this ship will have low combat effectiveness, and probably only suited to engaging un-escorted industrial ships. Your hauler isn't as vulnerable as you think. They have lots of CPU, cap, and mid-slots, use them, and you'll see that you have a much higher rate of survival. If you're aim is to get away from the gate, fit e-war (ECM, sensor damps). If you want to be able to get back to the other side fit a tank and some speed.

Drone bandwidth means more flavor for drone users. The changes mentioned specifically here make sense. The Arbitrator is far more dependent on it's drones for damage output than the Vexor is. The changes to other droneships especially the up and coming T2 additions is worthy of a separate discussion entirely.


Such a shame that the majority of EVE players these days are completely unable to look at changes in that kind of objective manner. It's bad enough that so many people put their e-peens before depth of gameplay (there are plenty of games out there which cater for that prioritization), but the way people attack CCP as a result is just shameful. It's just hundreds of people having pathetic knee-jerk reactions to changes that do nothing but diversify and deepen gameplay, and personally I'm glad the devs aren't acknowleding the whines. In a few months time, once people are used to the new rules, maybe they'll finally realize the game was actually improved.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2007.11.21 02:20:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Natalie Jax
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

and yes that does suck for the arazu, although it took 3 damps to do that before. i was just commenting on how the range reduction should be the same before/after patch, i never said it was a good thing. i was just saying locking at point blank is about as bad as locking at point blank and taking forever to lock.


Incorrect. There is an additional nerf on the strength of RSD modules independent of the ARM scripts. They are also halving the strength of the RSD boosting rig.

You cannot achieve the same range reduction with an Arazu as you can today. Not even with rigs, implants, and max skills. Even adding a fourth RSD II doesn't get you there because of the massive 4th module stacking penalty.


right, sounds like that only applies to the sensor booster being as effective on 1 stat before and after, sounds like dams gettin a nerv then. yay for the dev blog only posting 1 set of numbers,

Havlentia Castigatrix
Gallente
The Avalon Foundation
Posted - 2007.11.21 02:34:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Louis DelaBlanche

Bandwidth? Good & bad, I dont really get the logic of making vexor want to use 3 heavies over 5 mediums. Personally I carry 5 mediums & 5 lights in a vexors bay, not 3 heavies.



As do the vast majority of Vexor pilots, which does beg the question as to whether this has actually been tested by someone, or a lunchtime conversation has set Gallentean policy to putting all your eggs in one slow moving, large sig-radiused target rather than the relatively more flexible and wise multi-wave format. Apparently the Amarr, they of the inadvisable drugs policy, are of the 'rainy day' persuasion.

OTOH, I've not been that bothered by the Myrm drone 'nerf' for the same reasons, but it's high time that there was some kind of 'official' statement of the design ethos and direction of the different races rather than the wobbly plank of Devs deciding that balancing requires everything being thrown off-kilter for a few months.

Of course, they're probably tearing around at 4km/s in missile-lobbing cruisers.


Mik Nostrebor
Minmatar
Ex Coelis
Posted - 2007.11.21 04:33:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Mik Nostrebor on 21/11/2007 04:37:53
Not adding anything new to the debate. Just thought I would mention it.

I believe that solo, a heavy interdictor will be able to tank gate guns in many low sec systems. Does this mean that the incredible stream of itties and shuttles pilotted by isk farmers doing the high reward low-sec cargo agent thing (eg Ingunn) are going to get a lot more vulnerable?

Not being able to jump or warp and getting attacked by a t2 cruiser. Heh. It will really hurt the feelings of the ISK sellers methinks.

On another note, I was saddened that my blockade runner was badly effected by the series of nerfs (ie the 'indy's didnt get the hitpoint boost nerf of revelations fame; the nano-nerf made us choose between turning speed or MWD speed.)

So yeah, what was the bloackade runner supposed to do again? Surely not hauling?

I seriously thought you were working towards forcing people into specific ship classes for specific jobs. Here we have a ship that is being forced out of its role and becoming a somewhat ineffective small hauler.

Mik

Kalda Centauri
Gallente
Reckoning.
Posted - 2007.11.21 05:01:00 - [171]
 

After reading this dev blog, I have developed a new opinion about EvE...

EvE is like a pinata, where it hangs looking nice, just waiting until a blindfolded dev wacks it with a nerf bat.

Kransthow
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.21 05:26:00 - [172]
 

Crying or Very sad

Led Thespo
Gallente
FREE GATES ACADEMY
Posted - 2007.11.21 06:05:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Breyghun
Drones ... CCP's "Need for speed" in action. Reducing drone numbers at any one time will reduce server load. If you don't like the "bandwidth solution" suggest an alternative way of achieving this end.


Using more than one servers for a given solar system? Using a real OS other than Windows? Using real tools other than python stackless? I like python and all, but if they can't write fast enough code then this is a no brainer, go deeper, use more C++..

Originally by: Pang Grohl
This thread contains way too much Chicken Little...
Drone bandwidth means more flavor for drone users. The changes mentioned specifically here make sense. The Arbitrator is far more dependent on it's drones for damage output than the Vexor is. The changes to other droneships especially the up and coming T2 additions is worthy of a separate discussion entirely.


Sure, a lots of very disgusting and bitter flavors. Sweet :C


Originally by: Steppa
Gallente drone ***** here. Pretty much the epitome of whoever at CCP thought of when they built drones into the game. Most of my offensive skill points are in drones on a character that has been around since the beginning of the game.

POINT 1) This change is absolute crap. "biased toward firepower", so less spares...OMG. DRONE USERS ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE IN THE GAME THAT CAN HAVE THEIR WEAPONS DESTROYED. We...NEED...spares.

POINT 2) If you braniacs that meddle with this game are going to do this, you need to include a toggle to SHUT OFF bandwidth to ANY deployed/active drone. This would free up bandwidth to launch another drone. I consider this an absolute necessity if they're going through with this change.

Why is that important? If you don't know, you don't use drones. If you don't use drones, why do you care?


And finally. Same here. I've started Gallente, I've read their description, and well, that said they're the big drone dudes in the figgin' galaxy. And now they're , after all, aren't. That's a very interesting story change, but very unfortunate, so to say.

Originally by: Kalda Centauri
After reading this dev blog, I have developed a new opinion about EvE...

EvE is like a pinata, where it hangs looking nice, just waiting until a blindfolded dev wacks it with a nerf bat.


Some post-thoughts. EVE looks marvelous and indeed it is, but not for the newbies. With so many micromanagement and with so many skills there is clearly the only choice is to buy it and train for a few months. Why bother playing? Agents are fun, yeah, but if you want to live more than 2 seconds outside of Empire, you need at least a fully-tanked BS, nothing less will be sufficent nowadays... and the changes are not really encouraging social play. And the base/starter corps are nothing fancy :/

Unscrew Pewlous
Posted - 2007.11.21 06:51:00 - [174]
 

An interesting universe, where all technology devolves and survives. That is putting Darwinism in its place.

TBH, this seems to be CCP's solution to their closed end experiment called EVE. As it stands, virtually, anyone starting the game now is perpetually sunk into 2nd class status. There won't be a time in the next 3 years for 99% of the new accounts to have a serious impact on events. Who wants to wait that long to be able to compete meaningfully? A 40 to 60 million sp deficit is very difficult to overcome.

So what does CCP do? They try to annoy enough older players to get them to leave so CCP can attract new players to the game? Seems to be the current theme of most of the last few devblogs.

Moraguth
Amarr
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.11.21 07:15:00 - [175]
 

And of course... I can't log in to sisi right now just to see how bad it really is.

Scripts, honestly should have only been added in this way to RSD's not the rest.

Bandwidth, I'd like to see someone show a chart of ships with their drone capacity before/after type of drones launched before/after instead of all this wild speculation and doomsaying (which I would love to do, but can't get sisi to connect -_-)

Hactors are cool, but i really need to test out the speed tank on them. If they can go fast enough, and orbit at say 25 kms, they could feasibly tank sentries and/or an escort fleet long enough to pop that indy. Hmmmmmm.
Also for hactors, i see them being the new isk farming raven hunting ship of DOOoooooooom out in 0.0 where I live. This will be AWESOME.

Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2007.11.21 08:55:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Michael McNeil
I stand by my statments, I DO NOT like these scripts. combat is becomming too complecated, and I predict CCP will start to lose players. If anyone wanted to make the comment, that ccp is rewritting the rules by which combat in this game is done, here it is. A nerf here or there is one thing, these scripts are a totally nother story. As a sniper pilot, I must fly a 200 to 300 million isk ship. Now you wish to make these snipers basicly become worth less. heres how.

I spend about 30 seconds changing ammo and locking hostiles, oh wait I must now change scripts too, as i must target faster, or i need to track better.... 30 more seconds pass, my support are being ripped appart by the short ranged hostiles. now I have my targets, but they are too close. I now lose my ship.

to make a long story short, this will be the big problem you WILL see in fleet battles. the idea of scripts is nice perhaps for real life where your ship captain spent twenty years leaning the ropes, and you can get the experance to know what scripts you would need. but this is a game, ment for enjoyment, too much realisem kills that enjoyment.



not to mention that the 180km range is at a minimal to dodge interceptors or vagabonds..
With the range now even shorter means that solo sniping isnt doable anymore even not with fly by bm`s

Helevorn Feanaro
Gene Works
AKA-AHN KINGDOM
Posted - 2007.11.21 09:23:00 - [177]
 

Drones: Good changes. Looking forward to it. BUT I really hope you fixed the drone bugs.

Scripts: Fantastic changes. Choice = Good.

To the micromanagement whiners: You don't have to manage anything. They still work just as before, but with lower bonusses. Yes, its a nerf. Get over it. If you want more bang, it's your choice, but you have to work for it by fitting scripts.

Lo-sec will become more dangerous, but as has been pointed out above, you can fit to tank and run, or fit e-war. Yes, some skill will be needed. If you make a mistake, you die. This is all good.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.11.21 11:58:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Helevorn Feanaro

Lo-sec will become more dangerous, but as has been pointed out above, you can fit to tank and run, or fit e-war. Yes, some skill will be needed. If you make a mistake, you die. This is all good.


No, actually, it's not.

Lowsec becoming more dangerous, while keeping the current (low) rewards, will simply mean that it will become even more empty. Currently only about 17% of the population is in lowsec, with the risk vs reward becoming even worse it's a given that that percent will drop even more.

I fail to see how that's in any way a good thing. Lowsec is already largely not worth it, this just makes things worse.

Since industrial ops cannot haul goods without massive risk, they will simply move to highsec. Mission runners get podded at gate, they also move to highsec. Result: lots of empty space, with frustrated and bored pirates wondering why nobody ever comes to pay a visit.

Freyya
Advanced Planetary Exports
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2007.11.21 12:11:00 - [179]
 

I'm lolling hard at CCP right now...
liek srsly dood!

Arbi - vexor; WTF!!?? Vexor (Gallente droneboat, Gallente who invented drones you know) gets a 75 m3 space and the arbi gets 150 m3? Are you serious?
Gallente are supposed to be the dronerace ffs..now it gets 3 heavies + 1 spare or 5 meds and a couple spare while a race which should be beneath Gallente drone tech gets more versatility? Really a stupid design choice.

Furthermore; I really begin to suspect that CCP is losing track of their own game..you're introducing this and that with keeping 30% of things which relate to the introduction into account while forgetting the 70% that also gets affected by it (Hictor in lowsec anyone?)
Think before you introduce please because this is just really rubbish.

Ohh and thanks for the arazu whipeout btw Rolling Eyes

Craleo
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.11.21 12:27:00 - [180]
 

I was all upset with the nerfs, specially about the Information warfare modules and Eos. Then about the scripts. Then I realised these nerfs effect EVERYBODY. It might gimp my playstyle, but so will everybody elses.

So who really cares? In a month or 2 from now noone will even remember why we were all so upset about it, and we will still be playing. Remember the MWD nerf 2 years ago?


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