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Elantte
Frozen Salvation
Posted - 2007.11.19 22:41:00 - [1]
 

Everyone who has gotten on the test server or who has been paying attention knows about these new little mini-recons. To be honest, I believe these are wonderful additions and will give a boost to frig gangs.

Because I mainly fly gallente I have only gotten to playing around with the Keres. And have found some things that could be added to boost the ship becuase in its current state it leaves much to be desired.

Suggestions: add one utility slot in the highs for a small nos to help with running the damps, the 2 turrets hardpoints are fine (just that the upper one's placement should be looked at as part of the turret sticks through a part of the ship Razz). Also give it the ability to field two light drones instead of just one with a second one as backup.

As I said above the Keres is the only EAS that I have tried out so those who have used the others please feel free to post what you like/dislike about them or what aspect needs to be boosted/nerfed (God I hate the sound of the word "nerf" Laughing).

Intel Cylon
Posted - 2007.11.20 00:07:00 - [2]
 

They are cool,
the caldary EAS is currently perma Jamming a battleship on sisi.
The Keres or the other race's EAS ships are nowhere near to that efficiency.
CCP trying to balance the game because there are still not enough trained for Caldary Rolling Eyes

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.11.20 01:10:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Elantte
Everyone who has gotten on the test server or who has been paying attention knows about these new little mini-recons. To be honest, I believe these are wonderful additions and will give a boost to frig gangs.

Because I mainly fly gallente I have only gotten to playing around with the Keres. And have found some things that could be added to boost the ship becuase in its current state it leaves much to be desired.

Suggestions: add one utility slot in the highs for a small nos to help with running the damps, the 2 turrets hardpoints are fine (just that the upper one's placement should be looked at as part of the turret sticks through a part of the ship Razz). Also give it the ability to field two light drones instead of just one with a second one as backup.

As I said above the Keres is the only EAS that I have tried out so those who have used the others please feel free to post what you like/dislike about them or what aspect needs to be boosted/nerfed (God I hate the sound of the word "nerf" Laughing).


Why would you want to fit a nos? Confused If you're fitting nos to a Caldari/Gallente ewar frig, you're way too close.

Arana Tellen
Gallente
Clan Death Corps
Posted - 2007.11.20 01:27:00 - [4]
 

If damps are not changed, don't bother, just respec ECM caldari.

Igualmentedos
Caldari
Posted - 2007.11.20 02:49:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Arana Tellen
If damps are not changed, don't bother, just respec ECM caldari.


Let's all ***** because Caldari have something useful for once. Greedy *******s.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.11.20 02:51:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Igualmentedos
Originally by: Arana Tellen
If damps are not changed, don't bother, just respec ECM caldari.


Let's all ***** because Caldari have something useful for once. Greedy *******s.


Dude, I ain't *****in'. I'm training Caldari Cruiser 5 right now. ;-)

Liang

Igualmentedos
Caldari
Posted - 2007.11.20 02:53:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Igualmentedos
Originally by: Arana Tellen
If damps are not changed, don't bother, just respec ECM caldari.


Let's all ***** because Caldari have something useful for once. Greedy *******s.


Dude, I ain't *****in'. I'm training Caldari Cruiser 5 right now. ;-)

Liang


Talking about the Caldari ECM haters. :)

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.11.20 03:08:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Igualmentedos

Talking about the Caldari ECM haters. :)


Eh, I've never hated Caldari ECM. I just think that damps had a slight edge for a while... and I really love the Vexor. So I trained Gallente Cruiser 5, and got an Arazu.

The problem is that the Arazu/Lach is going to be better off fitting unbonused ECM than bonused+rigged damps. It just accelerated when I was planning on getting a Falcon.

Liang

Elantte
Frozen Salvation
Posted - 2007.11.20 03:43:00 - [9]
 

wow... I ment for this thread to be just about the new EAS's and what people liked/disliked about them, not have people go on about ECM and how damps have been nerfed hard.

and Liang, you are right, a small nos would be pointless on that ship but I was just giving an example, you could put a small remote rep of some kind, a cloak, or anything you want (other than turret or missle bay) but that isn't what I think the ship desparatly needs, if it could use a second drone then it would be more effective and not make it overpowered.

Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.11.20 03:46:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 20/11/2007 03:46:19
Why bother with the Keres? A Celestis will have almost as much dampening ability (heh), a much better tank, and fewer cap issues, and the Ares can tackle at > 24km range with lower cost, fewer cap issues thanks to the warp disruptor bonus, and MUCH increased survivability ...

Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.11.20 04:31:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin
Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 20/11/2007 03:46:19
Why bother with the Keres? A Celestis will have almost as much dampening ability (heh), a much better tank, and fewer cap issues, and the Ares can tackle at > 24km range with lower cost, fewer cap issues thanks to the warp disruptor bonus, and MUCH increased survivability ...

Its also has a cruiser sized sig radius, moves slower, takes longer to lock targets, and can be locked more quickly than an EW frig.

Yukisa
Posted - 2007.11.20 07:40:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Draygo Korvan
Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin
Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 20/11/2007 03:46:19
Why bother with the Keres? A Celestis will have almost as much dampening ability (heh), a much better tank, and fewer cap issues, and the Ares can tackle at > 24km range with lower cost, fewer cap issues thanks to the warp disruptor bonus, and MUCH increased survivability ...

Its also has a cruiser sized sig radius, moves slower, takes longer to lock targets, and can be locked more quickly than an EW frig.


Moves slower, but so what? Your EW frig isn't moving fast enough for an advantage. It will be pwned by missiles and light drones.

Locked faster? No biggie, a t1 cruiser can fit a 1600mm plate for a buffer tank.

Either way, EW ships are always primaried. You will survive longer in a t1 plated cruiser than a EW frig with heavy mass.


Damned Force
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2007.11.20 08:02:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Igualmentedos

Talking about the Caldari ECM haters. :)


Eh, I've never hated Caldari ECM. I just think that damps had a slight edge for a while... and I really love the Vexor. So I trained Gallente Cruiser 5, and got an Arazu.

The problem is that the Arazu/Lach is going to be better off fitting unbonused ECM than bonused+rigged damps. It just accelerated when I was planning on getting a Falcon.

Liang


Thats absolutely not TRUE! It seems the damps to be nerfed too, but u still forget this are not chance based. If u miss a cycle with ecm u toast. But if u use your arazu wise, than can effectively disable any ship from the fight. The only thing is made by this change that not every ship would have a EW module on, better they would go in a gang and use the dedicated ships, and the arazu would not be more a soloship. Thats all

Niffetin
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2007.11.20 08:04:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Igualmentedos

Talking about the Caldari ECM haters. :)


Eh, I've never hated Caldari ECM. I just think that damps had a slight edge for a while... and I really love the Vexor. So I trained Gallente Cruiser 5, and got an Arazu.

The problem is that the Arazu/Lach is going to be better off fitting unbonused ECM than bonused+rigged damps. It just accelerated when I was planning on getting a Falcon.

Liang


Thats absolutely not TRUE! It seems the damps to be nerfed too, but u still forget this are not chance based. If u miss a cycle with ecm u toast. But if u use your arazu wise, than can effectively disable any ship from the fight. The only thing is made by this change that not every ship would have a EW module on, better they would go in a gang and use the dedicated ships, and the arazu would not be more a soloship. Thats all


Only difference now is that your locktime will ONLY be halved and your lock range will be 5km instead of now 4km.

DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2007.11.20 11:09:00 - [15]
 

Ther discussion is pretty simple really, current changes to EW accross the board mean that ECM will be back where it was before the balance of it. You'll start to see it on all kind of ships again with other forms of EW totally being ignored.

Welcome back to the blaster/ew DOMI and stuff like that...

The EW changes need to be rebalanced before they go live making sure racial EW is preferred over fitting non-racial EW on your ships.

Icarus Starkiller
Forge Regional Security
Posted - 2007.11.20 11:14:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Elantte

Because I mainly fly gallente I have only gotten to playing around with the Keres. And have found some things that could be added to boost the ship becuase in its current state it leaves much to be desired.


Unfortunately, of them all, I've found the Keres to be the least useful. Why?
Because the Ares can do everything it can do but damp, and do it better (both get 30km peak warp disruptor range).

All of the other frigs don't have a frig-anologue that can compete with it.

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.11.20 11:32:00 - [17]
 

can someone please point out the changes of ECM to me, i seem to be missing something...

Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
Posted - 2007.11.20 12:14:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: DrAtomic
Ther discussion is pretty simple really, current changes to EW accross the board mean that ECM will be back where it was before the balance of it. You'll start to see it on all kind of ships again with other forms of EW totally being ignored.

Welcome back to the blaster/ew DOMI and stuff like that...

The EW changes need to be rebalanced before they go live making sure racial EW is preferred over fitting non-racial EW on your ships.


I find this highly unlikely. Only the BB (and T2 variants) and Scorp are getting buffed, not ECM modules themselves. When was the last time you saw a BS with enough spare midslots to make sticking an unbonused multispec in there a worthwhile proposition? I suspect any spare midslots will get filled with either more tackle gear or another SB or TC.

ECM without the bonuses of the specialized ships AND a few SDA IIs is a poor use of a midslot. The ECM/Nos Dominix and ECM/Torp Raven will not be returning.

The Amarr and Gallente recons need their bonuses upped to 7.5% if not 10%, and I'm not sure why they nerfed the rigs. And TDs need better versatility, falloff scripts at the least.

Betting 6 months at least before CCP snaps out of 'The damp ships are performing as we intend' to 'Yeah, the damp ships are a wee bit overnerfed' though. Perhaps a year.

Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
Posted - 2007.11.20 19:09:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Liang Nuren

Eh, I've never hated Caldari ECM. I just think that damps had a slight edge for a while... and I really love the Vexor. So I trained Gallente Cruiser 5, and got an Arazu.

The problem is that the Arazu/Lach is going to be better off fitting unbonused ECM than bonused+rigged damps. It just accelerated when I was planning on getting a Falcon.

Liang


Thats absolutely not TRUE! It seems the damps to be nerfed too, but u still forget this are not chance based. If u miss a cycle with ecm u toast. But if u use your arazu wise, than can effectively disable any ship from the fight. The only thing is made by this change that not every ship would have a EW module on, better they would go in a gang and use the dedicated ships, and the arazu would not be more a soloship. Thats all


Actually, it is. After the nerf an arazu will be better off fitting ecm since they will at least have something like a 25% chance to work, and at close or far range. You forget that damps also have a chance to fail when outside their short optimal range, and do NOTHING when you don't damp the target enough to break their lock.

Originally by: Niffetin

Only difference now is that your locktime will ONLY be halved and your lock range will be 5km instead of now 4km.


More like the difference will be NO effect on your lock time, and your lock range will be 20km instead of 15.

Originally by: DrAtomic
Ther discussion is pretty simple really, current changes to EW accross the board mean that ECM will be back where it was before the balance of it. You'll start to see it on all kind of ships again with other forms of EW totally being ignored.

Welcome back to the blaster/ew DOMI and stuff like that...

The EW changes need to be rebalanced before they go live making sure racial EW is preferred over fitting non-racial EW on your ships.


The hell it will. ECM is not being boosted, just the ships bonus. That means a domi will still not be able to jam a thing, even with a few racials.

Originally by: Icarus Starkiller

Unfortunately, of them all, I've found the Keres to be the least useful. Why?
Because the Ares can do everything it can do but damp, and do it better (both get 30km peak warp disruptor range).

All of the other frigs don't have a frig-anologue that can compete with it.


While this is true, I am still not entirely sure I'd rather have an Ares. The Ares has **** poor lock range, and while it can speed tank, the Keres can actually run a repper and has assault resists. Heck, you could run double reppers with a cap booster or two.


Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.11.20 23:00:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Gaogan
While this is true, I am still not entirely sure I'd rather have an Ares. The Ares has **** poor lock range, and while it can speed tank, the Keres can actually run a repper and has assault resists. Heck, you could run double reppers with a cap booster or two.


1) Warrior IIs will still eat the Keres alive. For instance, on an Enyo running a repper and 2 exp. hardener IIs (best anti EXP fit on a Keres and also horrible on the cap) will only barely tank a wing of non-drone-ship Warrior IIs - 79 (or 82 dual repped) DPS vs 65 drone DPS. And if it's fit like that with higher EXP than Kin or Therm, you just send a wing of more-damaging Hobgoblin or Hornet IIs in and pop the ship. And obviously a drone ship will pwn. If you boost up the assault resists, the standard-issue anti-inty Warriors eat you. If you boost EXP, then the other types get you. With 3 lows, you're kinda stuck in PVP.

I'll take my Ares running around faster than the 6 km/s of Warrior IIs or the 1600mm buffer of my Celestis any day of the week, thanks.

2) Double reppers AND dampening AND scramming, even with injectors? LOL? Even with the max of 50% drain reduction on both, you're still talking about a ton of cap draining. And fitting a booster or two takes away precious mids you wouldn't have to waste in a Celestis.

3) If the lock range of the Ares is greater than or equal to the scan range, life is good. The max scram range for the Ares Mk. II is 30 km IIRC. With my crappy targeting skills it has a lock range of 30km, and since I only have Inty IV my range would be 28 km. Still outside of neut range, at sufficient range to orbit at speed, and thus much more survivable. Also remember it's getting an 80% reduction to cap use of a jammer and a high switched to a mid to better aid cap sustainability. And it outruns light drones.

There's also the market issues concerning invention that have to get ironed out before the ship is anywhere near cost-effective as well, but that's only a secondary concern ...


 

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