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blankseplocked I think this is the amarrian íproblemí (no, not a whine, it's a soluti
 
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adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2007.11.16 17:58:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: adriaans on 16/11/2007 18:06:14
Edited by: adriaans on 16/11/2007 18:00:04
...on.

Iíve been thinking about this for a very long time now and thought it was time to write about it as no one else have done it yet.

A few things to bare in mind first:
No I have not lost any ships bla blab la
No you canít have my stuff, but you are free to give me yours :D
Before you get any smart idea that I have no clue of how to fly amarr, Iíve been here for soon 1 Ĺ years and flown so far almost exclusively amarr ships. I can also fly almost all races ships spare capitals. I have a lot of experience flying amarrian ships.
I will only cover this one point at current time, as many of the other issues I could have covered has already been (i.e., role bonus -50% cap use, better fitting room for modules, etc). Much of that is needed, but it may not be needed at such a drastic level if I am correct with what I am writing here.

So, my belief is as following:
That the amarrian íproblemsí comes from base resistance and not from omni tanks and from not being the only ones (except missile ships) able deal em damage. Why am I saying this? Doesnít say minmatar have the same problem with shields? No, because amarr sadly are not the only ones able to use EM ammo, granted a little better than minmatar, but not much.

For evidence let me bring forth the T2 resistance on minmatar ships: Hacís: 92.5% em resists AND 67.5% th resistsÖ CS: the same except 4% less for the sleipnir, and this trend goes for the small ships too, where lowest is the interceptors with 80%.
But they shield tank? Not necessarily, why would you do that vs for example amarr roleplay corps, or in missions? Not to mention those ships can be very flexibly be choosen what to use as tank, armor or shields.
Due to those very high em resists I donít think eanms, dc, etc are the problem but rather the base resists. It does not apply for shield tanks as everyone else can choose damage types.
But amarr has super high explo resists? Yes, but nowhere as high as em resists comes, and besides you could just use a different damage type on usÖ

Funny enough, it is not amarr ships that are most efficient at amarr navy missionsÖ reason: native resists and we are not the only ones able to use em damage type (missile ships should not count on this btw), the same goes for pvp.

My proposal or suggestion to what can be done:
Even out resistances a bit and rework native resistsÖsome ships can tank an antire fleet of amarr ships pounding on them for ages.
This does not only apply to amarr vs minmatar for everyone info, but I think the devs would have a good idea based out from this as to what I mean, and they would know better themselves how to balance it I think. Not to forget native resists are too high on t2 ships in other races as well in addition to what has been covered here.
Another thing, 90% amarr SHIELD explosive resistance does not countÖ others can change damage remember? (gallente gunboats donít do explo damage :P)

By also making amarr the only race able to deal em damage (missile ships still should), it will make amarr have something unique that no other gun boat race would have. It will also hopefully make em less a reason to tank it, and make amarr best at amarr navy missions again.

Anything Iíve missed, overlooked? Suggestions? Comments?


edit: making it easier to read.
edit2: added a line i forgot.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2007.11.16 17:59:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: adriaans on 22/11/2007 21:12:25
<-reserved->

Another thing i came to think of now, if minmatar has EM ammo, then why can't amarr have their Blaze crystals? :) (reasons above with native resists etc).

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2007.11.17 19:17:00 - [3]
 

From my point of view Most of the Amarr problems come from the fact that their weaponsystem is geared around midrange and midrange PVP almost never happens. Combined with the fact that Amarr has no solution to KEEP targets in said midrange or to keep them out of short range (no more than others at least).

Combined with the susceptability to nos/neut JUST like any other race (which essentially also stems from shortrange combat).

I'm quite ok with my non-uber damage if I'm able to keep my opponent in midrange. If CCP can't make that happen and I'm forced to be short range then AT LEAST I want similar actual damage output, similar tracking bonuses and similar cap usage.




Archivian Specialatus
Amarr
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2007.11.18 00:04:00 - [4]
 

I do think we are resticted to mid range. I do think our sensor strength sux and i do think our cap sux

oh ya and we have no ability to keep the enemy in mid range.

oh and our hacs sux

oh and now our recons kind of sux.

Oha and the new T2 frig is going to sux (Nos bonus on a frigate? who the hell are you gonna nos at 5km in a frig and expect to live more than 30secs)

But I would let all that go so i can keep my awesome damage. I will just find a way to make it land on people.

BUT THIS!!!
Oh and our t2 battleship sux, Less damage than all of them, less tank, for nearly half as long as the golem. only tanks 100dps more than abbadon, for half the damage. No other ships has that handicap. Hover it is the pefect mission runner ship for the amarr. Like all the others are for their races, it just so happens the other races ships happen to be good at pvp as well.

I tried to argue that maybe in a repping network the Paladin would be awesome. And it is, but the problem is all the other races are better at it and will still do damage.

here is a little example of extremes.

10 Paladins in a remot repping network can tank for 2795 dps each. (thats roughly 2 carriers worth.) and shoots for roughly 5000dps (all together)

Golem would tank for over 3000dps each, hit for a total 11000dps and do it all for nearly 50% longer. it could give up that 50% longer and deal a combined 14000dps instead.

Now thats what i call unbalanced.
it makes me almost want to give up my nice damage
or even worse, train for caldari

Soulspatch
Posted - 2007.11.18 01:34:00 - [5]
 

I'm an Amarr mission pilot and I fly the Abaddon. Awesome ship for EM damage dealing and tanking, 94.8% with 3 active EM hardners. But that is a specialised tank. Amarr ships tend to be specialist's as they don't seem to work as well as other races in a general role, partly because they can only do EM/Therm as their primary damage type, though they do tank well in general terms compared to other races.

They do well in midrange combat, but as has been stated, they suck at long and short range e.g lack of tracking speed, and/or other damage dealing ammo. Couple that with the fact that Amarr ships do not have the combat endurance that other races have, especially in regards to the Abaddon makes them less versatile than any other race. That may explain why they are the least popular of the races.

If, for example the Abaddon is fitted with 3 Cap rigs and 3/4 mid slot T2 cap chargers then it is able to sustain combat for significantly longer periods. But then again one has the problem of sacrificing versatily for the ability to "remain in the fight" as 6-7 fitting/rig slots have been used just so one can keep firing the guns!!! As far as I know, no other race has that problem.

Amarr ships require specialised setup's which is great for mission running when one has time to setup for specific situations, but not so good for PvP where combat adaptation is required.

One way to over come the problem of poor short range combat ability for Amarr ships is to fit them with Bombs, but bomb range and damage is not good enough to force enemy ships back into midrange combat where Amarr can fight more effectively. One way to help this would be to have ship bonus' or skill bonus' to improve bomb range and damage for Amarr ship's.

With other races alot of their ships receive 5% bonus to turret damage, which in effect applies to all damage types as they can fire alternative ammo types. Yet with Amarr that 5% bonus only applies to EM/Thermal as that is the only damage type that Amarr weapons are capable of. One option to help with the Amarr's inability to deal multiple damage types would be to up this bonus to 10% per level. Though some might say "fit a missile launcher", this is still not place Amarr on even ground as no other race has to train multiple weapon types in order to do multiple damage, not that Amarr ships have that many launcher slots anyway. Or increase the heat sink damage multiplier to 1.5% (on T2 heat sinks), though I prefer having the ship bonus as it reflects training and is progressive rather than outright.

Just my 2cents, interested in your feed back.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.11.18 07:27:00 - [6]
 

I think you'd be better off investigating why people don't shield tank. Base Shield resist is 0%.

Liang

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.11.18 13:25:00 - [7]
 

I agree that resistances and mid-range combat are probably the main issues hampering Amarr.
But.. No combat endurance? No tracking? Did I miss anything?
No, let's stay with resists and mid range combat. Perhaps a little bit of laser stats in general. But that'll do.
Originally by: Soulspatch
With other races alot of their ships receive 5% bonus to turret damage, which in effect applies to all damage types as they can fire alternative ammo types.
Have you ever used rails or blasters?
Laser damage is not bad. It's the resistances, especially NPC resistances, which make them look bad.

Archivian Specialatus
Amarr
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2007.11.18 16:07:00 - [8]
 

Quote:
With other races alot of their ships receive 5% bonus to turret damage, which in effect applies to all damage types as they can fire alternative ammo types.


As far as Damage types goes. I think thir fine. Gallente have the same issue, and really it doesnt matter that much in PvP unless someone has kitted specifically to tank against it, in which case they are going to be crap against everyone else.

As far as combat endurance goes, Amarr do suck pretty bad. Conflag ammo means that the Abbadon can even sustain its own guns.

But you can build Amarr ship to have as much combat endurance as everyone else has as standard. But by then you have used so many slots to keep your cap going, and then put a fairly ok tank on it, that you have sacrificed web/scram/capbooster to do it. And you have the worst damage in the game at that point.

A good Amarr ship can be just as good as any other races good ship, infact slightly better as long as its cruiser class ships. But to do that, you looking at 2 1/2 mins tops if all your modules are on and you are capboosting and have max skills. on a 1v1 basis that is obviously nice, but in a large skirmish or fleet battle, there is more than 3mins of fighting to be done and if you called prime, and there is a chance to survive that (remote rep, faction tank) and the enemy change prime, well they have knocked you out of the fight anyway coz your cap is dead.

Basically i think they really need to look at all Amarr cruiser class ships.

Up the cap recharge by between 20%-50% on BS (considering Amarr are supposed to be the cap race/ unoless they meant capped race) Or lower the cap use on alot of things.

And up the damage on the T2 BS by at least 50%. Or drop the damage by 50% on all the other T2 Battleships (considereing there supposed to be for mission running)

I dont think CCP will change any of it. I think what they want is for people to fly around in Amarr with
8Guns
2Cap recharger 1/2Cap batteries
6 for tank and maybe 1 for cap recharge.

And all the tacking should only be done by other ships.

Im sure they want that for the other races, but simply because of the other races slot lay out it means they never even have to think about that.

It wouldnt be so bad if Amarr could fight with there lasers at all the ranges Caldari can fight at.

You could say that caldari have a similar problem, but at least there problem is 150Km away from the fight, doing damage as if they were point blank.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2007.11.18 17:25:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
I think you'd be better off investigating why people don't shield tank. Base Shield resist is 0%.

Liang



because only one race shield tanks? even that is rare though, i normally see EW caldari armor tanking ships... minmatar would never choose shield tank in pvp under most circumstances (except their CS).


anyways, am i just misinterpreting everyone or are you discussing every other issue except the one i proposed? :P Wouldn't it solve at least some of the amarr issues?

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2007.11.18 17:28:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
Quote:
With other races alot of their ships receive 5% bonus to turret damage, which in effect applies to all damage types as they can fire alternative ammo types.


As far as Damage types goes. I think thir fine. Gallente have the same issue, and really it doesnt matter that much in PvP unless someone has kitted specifically to tank against it, in which case they are going to be crap against everyone else.

As far as combat endurance goes, Amarr do suck pretty bad. Conflag ammo means that the Abbadon can even sustain its own guns.

But you can build Amarr ship to have as much combat endurance as everyone else has as standard. But by then you have used so many slots to keep your cap going, and then put a fairly ok tank on it, that you have sacrificed web/scram/capbooster to do it. And you have the worst damage in the game at that point.

A good Amarr ship can be just as good as any other races good ship, infact slightly better as long as its cruiser class ships. But to do that, you looking at 2 1/2 mins tops if all your modules are on and you are capboosting and have max skills. on a 1v1 basis that is obviously nice, but in a large skirmish or fleet battle, there is more than 3mins of fighting to be done and if you called prime, and there is a chance to survive that (remote rep, faction tank) and the enemy change prime, well they have knocked you out of the fight anyway coz your cap is dead.

Basically i think they really need to look at all Amarr cruiser class ships.

Up the cap recharge by between 20%-50% on BS (considering Amarr are supposed to be the cap race/ unoless they meant capped race) Or lower the cap use on alot of things.

And up the damage on the T2 BS by at least 50%. Or drop the damage by 50% on all the other T2 Battleships (considereing there supposed to be for mission running)

I dont think CCP will change any of it. I think what they want is for people to fly around in Amarr with
8Guns
2Cap recharger 1/2Cap batteries
6 for tank and maybe 1 for cap recharge.

And all the tacking should only be done by other ships.

Im sure they want that for the other races, but simply because of the other races slot lay out it means they never even have to think about that.

It wouldnt be so bad if Amarr could fight with there lasers at all the ranges Caldari can fight at.

You could say that caldari have a similar problem, but at least there problem is 150Km away from the fight, doing damage as if they were point blank.


i agree with you on this, especially that it is mostly cruiser sized and a little on BC sized ships that need most work (including t2!)

Khanak Hryad
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.11.18 18:06:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
I do think we are resticted to mid range. I do think our sensor strength sux and i do think our cap sux

False, true, true-ish
Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
oh ya and we have no ability to keep the enemy in mid range.


True, but generally don't need to. Don't know what everyone's going on about having trouble long and short range, but I'm doing quite fine in my Geddon:
4 modulated Tachys (standard crystals)
3 T2 pulse beams
1 drone range extender.

I can target 80 km off, optimal for my tachys is 82 km, drone range is 73 km, the standard crystals are easy on the cap, 2 cap rechargers in mid, 2 CPR in lows, 2 CCC in rigs, have the option of throwing a target range booster in the other mid slot, or whatever I want really...

Some scoff at the 3 T2 small pulses, but I say it's great since
1) Can't fit another large beam (PG shortage)
2) while my drones take out the long/mid range bastards, the pulses can take care of those pesky close range bastards (they have the tracking and the damage for it)
3) Medium pulses can't cut it (tracking is not good enough/damage is only a small bit more than the small ones)

Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
oh and our hacs sux

hmm....zealot isn't half bad, but I'd rather have the resists bonus on the zealot than the sacri...

Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
oh and now our recons kind of sux.

yer....
/me shakes angry fist at devs for nerfing the NOS

Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
Oh and the new T2 frig is going to sux (Nos bonus on a frigate? who the hell are you gonna nos at 5km in a frig and expect to live more than 30secs)


goodness...remind me not to get in that ship...

Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
But I would let all that go so i can keep my awesome damage. I will just find a way to make it land on people.

BUT THIS!!!
Oh and our t2 battleship sux, Less damage than all of them, less tank, for nearly half as long as the golem. only tanks 100dps more than abbadon, for half the damage. No other ships has that handicap. Hover it is the pefect mission runner ship for the amarr. Like all the others are for their races, it just so happens the other races ships happen to be good at pvp as well.

I tried to argue that maybe in a repping network the Paladin would be awesome. And it is, but the problem is all the other races are better at it and will still do damage.

here is a little example of extremes.

10 Paladins in a remot repping network can tank for 2795 dps each. (thats roughly 2 carriers worth.) and shoots for roughly 5000dps (all together)

Golem would tank for over 3000dps each, hit for a total 11000dps and do it all for nearly 50% longer. it could give up that 50% longer and deal a combined 14000dps instead.

Now thats what i call unbalanced.
it makes me almost want to give up my nice damage
or even worse, train for caldari


sadly....very true

Archivian Specialatus
Amarr
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2007.11.19 01:55:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: adriaans

anyways, am i just misinterpreting everyone or are you discussing every other issue except the one i proposed? :P Wouldn't it solve at least some of the amarr issues?


About the Resists:
The reason why the resists are the way they are is because each T2 ship resistis is geard toward their racial enemy. Which is why Minmatar get bonus's to EM and Thermal and Amarr get EXP and and Kinetic. (I know Minmatar can do all 4 types but when you look at their T2 ammo you can see what i mean - Hail & Barrage both do EXP and Kintetic)

Also about damage against the resists, if you stood an Abbadon next to a Maelstrom, kitted them both purely for T2 damage and had them shoot. The Amarr will always win against minmatar (unless Amarr cap runs out)

Amarr do more damage than Minmatar, but at the sacrifice of tanking, but the minmatar, even though they do less damage, can always switch their tank the shields to get the most out of what damage they have. The real problems start coming when Minmatar start fighting in Packs. You never really know what there ships can do, due to their slots. But you always know with Amarr, its either going to be lots of damage or lots of tank, and in both cases you can expect very little logistics.

On the whole Amarr do 2 things very well, Damage and tank, but only one at a time and the cap doesnt support either unless you want to use up all your mid slots.

Minmatar tend to be jack of all trades master of speed.
Gallente tend to be in the same boat as Amarr with the raw ship, but the Domi is a dark horse (possibly the best BS in the game) and they have more mid slots to add logistics, master of drones and cap isnt really a problem dispite having less, because they are not cap hungry unless the use MWD, but even then they get a bonus to it half the time, a bonus that actually pays off because the MWD's are not on for long periods of time unlike the Amarr whos heavy cap drain is constant.

Caldari suffer the same slot probs as Amarr, but from a very long way away. Which the distance alone tends to mean that tanking isnt needed and then they can do lots of logistics. Though catching their target is a bit of an issue.

Archivian Specialatus
Amarr
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2007.11.19 02:14:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Khanak Hryad
False, true, true-ish


True (but i'll get to that) true, true (except for the Apoc- which cant do anything else)

Originally by: Khanak Hryad
True, but generally don't need to. Don't know what everyone's going on about having trouble long and short range, but I'm doing quite fine in my Geddon:
4 modulated Tachys (standard crystals)
3 T2 pulse beams
1 drone range extender.

I can target 80 km off, optimal for my tachys is 82 km, drone range is 73 km, the standard crystals are easy on the cap, 2 cap rechargers in mid, 2 CPR in lows, 2 CCC in rigs, have the option of throwing a target range booster in the other mid slot, or whatever I want really...

Some scoff at the 3 T2 small pulses, but I say it's great since
1) Can't fit another large beam (PG shortage)
2) while my drones take out the long/mid range bastards, the pulses can take care of those pesky close range bastards (they have the tracking and the damage for it)
3) Medium pulses can't cut it (tracking is not good enough/damage is only a small bit more than the small ones)


I really hope your jokeing. I really really do, BAD AMARR, BAD BAD AMARR!!!

When i say Mid range what i mean is 15 to 50km. Its a nice range to fight in especially on gates. And you just have to tray and fight in your range and not get into the situation. But from about 25 Km on wards we cant hold people there to pew pew them. 15Km they cant warp, but now they are dangerously close to beating your traking (your tachyons probably dont even land well, if at all, at that range. 5-10k is a nice grace period where it all comes together with webs and everything, and will all last like a heavenly bliss till your cap runs out.
0-5k, half the time guns dont land properly despite webbing that pesky megathron. Generally if your fight starts at 15K against a mega, you want him to be in structure by the time he bumbs you, so you dont need to land on him well to get the kill.

Originally by: Khanak Hryad
hmm....zealot isn't half bad, but I'd rather have the resists bonus on the zealot than the sacri...


Again BAD AMARR!!! When compared to other HACS the Zelot has crap damage, barely ok Cap which is crap due to cap drain. And its slow as my backwards sister. on the other hand zealots do tend to make targets to test you guns out on to see how much they hurt... funny enough, like my backwards sister.

I think Amarr small ships are supposed to be crap because Minmatar ones are good. And Amarr BS are supposed to be better on a 1v1 basis whilst the Minmatart ones get better when you start looking at fighting in packs (race Vs race packs)

Even if our small ships stay crap, i think Amarr as a whole really should get a Capacitor boost without nurfing anything else. I really think the handy cap is that huge.

And the T2 BS should get a damage bonus or all the others should get a damage nurf.


Soulspatch
Posted - 2007.11.19 06:23:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Have you ever used rails or blasters?


Just did a comparison, the best T1 blaster has a higher base damage multiplier, better tracking, and almost half the activation cost. The only advantage the Pulse laser has is range.

Rail guns only have a damage multiplier about two thirds that of a beam. Activation cost is about one third that of a Beam laser and fitting is a great deal less so you can fit more, though Beam lasers have a little better tracking, but then tracking a BS at 15-50km is generally not a problem for either. And rail's have a better rate of fire.

Then you add drones to the mix and Gallente tip the ballance easily against Amarr.

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Laser damage is not bad. It's the resistances, especially NPC resistances, which make them look bad.


Which is the point, Amarr only do EM/Thermal as their primary damage type, being able to deal other damage types is just to pathetic to justify trying. Tank for EM/Thermal and one can effectively neutralise Amarr. If Amarr setup for high damage, their tank more or less goes out the window.

EM armour is the highest armour resistance for every race in the game and not all shield races tank with shields. This also works against Amarr.

Amarr tank well, Amarr do good damage, but not both at once, and they lack endurance.

Archivian Specialatus
Amarr
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2007.11.19 08:18:00 - [15]
 

I would just like to add, aggain that the fact "that Amarr only 2 types of damage" really isnt an argument against anything at all ever.

Gallente have the same problem and that is because gallente and amarr hit the hardest, so there for are easier to tank against to balance it.

Though after the T2 BS are released the damage tree will change to.

Gallente
Caldari
Minmatar
Amarr

and the Caldari will have the best all round ship because it will be able to an Abaddons damage whilst tanking like an abbaddon at the same time. Or the weaker version will be that it will do less damage than an abaddon but more than a Armageddon, Whilst tank like an Abaddon for 50% longer than an Abbadon.

Sometimes I wonder about CCP and balancing tech.

But I wonder if they keep parts of the game unbalanced mimic one race inventing better technology and so wining the arms race in a certain fields for a while, and then the next race moves ahead in the arms race. I mean thats technically balancing if each race is more powerful in a particular field at a particular time.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2007.11.19 16:45:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
Originally by: adriaans

anyways, am i just misinterpreting everyone or are you discussing every other issue except the one i proposed? :P Wouldn't it solve at least some of the amarr issues?


About the Resists:
The reason why the resists are the way they are is because each T2 ship resistis is geard toward their racial enemy. Which is why Minmatar get bonus's to EM and Thermal and Amarr get EXP and and Kinetic. (I know Minmatar can do all 4 types but when you look at their T2 ammo you can see what i mean - Hail & Barrage both do EXP and Kintetic)

Also about damage against the resists, if you stood an Abbadon next to a Maelstrom, kitted them both purely for T2 damage and had them shoot. The Amarr will always win against minmatar (unless Amarr cap runs out)

Amarr do more damage than Minmatar, but at the sacrifice of tanking, but the minmatar, even though they do less damage, can always switch their tank the shields to get the most out of what damage they have. The real problems start coming when Minmatar start fighting in Packs. You never really know what there ships can do, due to their slots. But you always know with Amarr, its either going to be lots of damage or lots of tank, and in both cases you can expect very little logistics.

On the whole Amarr do 2 things very well, Damage and tank, but only one at a time and the cap doesnt support either unless you want to use up all your mid slots.

Minmatar tend to be jack of all trades master of speed.
Gallente tend to be in the same boat as Amarr with the raw ship, but the Domi is a dark horse (possibly the best BS in the game) and they have more mid slots to add logistics, master of drones and cap isnt really a problem dispite having less, because they are not cap hungry unless the use MWD, but even then they get a bonus to it half the time, a bonus that actually pays off because the MWD's are not on for long periods of time unlike the Amarr whos heavy cap drain is constant.

Caldari suffer the same slot probs as Amarr, but from a very long way away. Which the distance alone tends to mean that tanking isnt needed and then they can do lots of logistics. Though catching their target is a bit of an issue.


I'm aware of that, but as you can see minmatar get WAY higher resists vs amarr than amarr get vs minmatar, making it impossible for amarr to hurt their armor, even in full gank set up, while minmatar can still hurt amarr. Also how can projectiles do EM damage?
Since minmatar can do both thermal and em damage as they choose and get get their Em resists way higher than amarr it makes them much better at amarr missions, vs sansha and blood raiders which amarr is supposed to be better against.
a roleplaying amarr corp vs a roleplaying minmatar corp, amarr will never win under even odds, unless the others do a mistake, 96%+ em resist can't be killed...

FYI, gallente does a lot more dps than amarr.


By making the base/native resists a bit more even out, omni tanks won't be a cause for super high em resist anymore, as now all resists will be more even and non very much higher than others.
By making amarr the only EM damage dealers (not counting missiles, or should I?), the amarr race gets something unique and it makes minmatar hopefully not the best on amarr missions...i don't see amarr being best on minmatar mission...

Soulspatch
Posted - 2007.11.20 02:55:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
I would just like to add, aggain that the fact "that Amarr only 2 types of damage" really isnt an argument against anything at all ever.

Gallente have the same problem and that is because gallente and amarr hit the hardest, so there for are easier to tank against to balance it.


Gallente don't have the same problem, they get good bonus' to drones and drones do multi damage types, they are not restricted in the same way as Amarr.

Archivian Specialatus
Amarr
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2007.11.20 04:02:00 - [18]
 

All i can say is WOW, we have alot of bad bad bad Amarr Pilots in here.

Highest Damage BS in the game Hyperion. At about 1400dps
Second Abaddon. 1300dps

1v1 who will win: Abaddon

Abaddon Vs any Minmatar BS in a straight shoot out: Abaddon will win.

What races have a HARSH damage whole : Gallente and Minmatar

Minmatar get a higher bonus against EM BECAUSE Amarr do SO much damage that it ends up being balanced. Actually a lil more in amarr favor coz even though our EXP resist is lower, Minmatar can dont put out anywhere near enough damage to make good use of it.

The only 3 weakness amarr have, and they are pretty harsh, are
Cruiser class ships
CAP is crap for a race that specializes in cap.
Lack of Versatility

PS everyone uses Drones, so amarr compensates with its weaker drones doing esentially the same amount of damage, as long as the drones do explosive damage - remember Gallente have a HUGE damage hole, and exp drones on them will probably only get 50% of its damage through, where as against a good amarr ship, the gallent drones will probably only get about 20-25%. So like i said, in the same boat.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2007.11.20 14:33:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
All i can say is WOW, we have alot of bad bad bad Amarr Pilots in here.

Highest Damage BS in the game Hyperion. At about 1400dps
Second Abaddon. 1300dps

1v1 who will win: Abaddon

Abaddon Vs any Minmatar BS in a straight shoot out: Abaddon will win.

What races have a HARSH damage whole : Gallente and Minmatar

Minmatar get a higher bonus against EM BECAUSE Amarr do SO much damage that it ends up being balanced. Actually a lil more in amarr favor coz even though our EXP resist is lower, Minmatar can dont put out anywhere near enough damage to make good use of it.

The only 3 weakness amarr have, and they are pretty harsh, are
Cruiser class ships
CAP is crap for a race that specializes in cap.
Lack of Versatility

PS everyone uses Drones, so amarr compensates with its weaker drones doing esentially the same amount of damage, as long as the drones do explosive damage - remember Gallente have a HUGE damage hole, and exp drones on them will probably only get 50% of its damage through, where as against a good amarr ship, the gallent drones will probably only get about 20-25%. So like i said, in the same boat.


WOW....so many bad people at reading here....Rolling Eyes

IF you read what i wrote i was mainly discussing TECH 2 resists and damage dealt (t1 ammo), and missions, not battleship vs battleship, i agree amarr battleships are fine (except apoc) and never did i mention they were not.

btw, max skilled i don't think an abaddon pilot would have an easy time vs a max skilled hyperion. Theres a world outside EFT too, namely range.

Archivian Specialatus
Amarr
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2007.11.20 16:52:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: adriaans


WOW....so many bad people at reading here....Rolling Eyes

IF you read what i wrote i was mainly discussing TECH 2 resists and damage dealt (t1 ammo), and missions, not battleship vs battleship, i agree amarr battleships are fine (except apoc) and never did i mention they were not.

btw, max skilled i don't think an abaddon pilot would have an easy time vs a max skilled hyperion. Theres a world outside EFT too, namely range.


!. I was talking about T2 Resits, so what i said stands.
2. If your talking about T1 ammo Damage, especially on T2 resists, then of course your damage is gonna be kinda crap.

3. Abbadon would win (and i didnt say it would be easy). It has effectively more buffer in the form of resists than the Hyperion has. The higher damage of the Hyperion isnt high enough to cut through the Abbadons effective buffer before the Abbadon can cut through the Hyperions.
If you want to add range in, the Abbadon should stand a better chance. anything more than 5km-10km, the Abaddon is going to be doing all its damage until the Hyperion gets into its optimal. If they start at 0km then The abaddon will still win due to effective buffer. (drons are being included here as well.)

On ver specific terms like that Amaar are good, including dron damage.

The part i agree with you on and most of the other people on is that fights are rarely that focesed. If the Hyperion and Abaddon bothed dropped Damage drones, or did something funky with its mid slots like putting in EW or something. Then Amarr a basically shafted (especially with EW)

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.11.20 18:46:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Soulspatch
Gallente don't have the same problem, they get good bonus' to drones and drones do multi damage types, they are not restricted in the same way as Amarr.
This sounds as if all Gallente ships get a drone bonus, which, of course, is wrong.
Dominix, Myrmidon, Ishtar and Vexor - Four ships out of a few dozen.
Amarr even have three of their own: Arbitrator, Curse and Pilgrim. So that's around 2 ships difference, if you count Curse and Pilgrim as one type.

A bit more differentiation please.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2007.11.22 21:11:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Archivian Specialatus
Originally by: adriaans


WOW....so many bad people at reading here....Rolling Eyes

IF you read what i wrote i was mainly discussing TECH 2 resists and damage dealt (t1 ammo), and missions, not battleship vs battleship, i agree amarr battleships are fine (except apoc) and never did i mention they were not.

btw, max skilled i don't think an abaddon pilot would have an easy time vs a max skilled hyperion. Theres a world outside EFT too, namely range.


!. I was talking about T2 Resits, so what i said stands.
2. If your talking about T1 ammo Damage, especially on T2 resists, then of course your damage is gonna be kinda crap.

3. Abbadon would win (and i didnt say it would be easy). It has effectively more buffer in the form of resists than the Hyperion has. The higher damage of the Hyperion isnt high enough to cut through the Abbadons effective buffer before the Abbadon can cut through the Hyperions.
If you want to add range in, the Abbadon should stand a better chance. anything more than 5km-10km, the Abaddon is going to be doing all its damage until the Hyperion gets into its optimal. If they start at 0km then The abaddon will still win due to effective buffer. (drons are being included here as well.)

On ver specific terms like that Amaar are good, including dron damage.

The part i agree with you on and most of the other people on is that fights are rarely that focesed. If the Hyperion and Abaddon bothed dropped Damage drones, or did something funky with its mid slots like putting in EW or something. Then Amarr a basically shafted (especially with EW)


if you were talking about t2 resist..then why did you compare t1 ships? and even a non minmatar ship...

That fight with abaddon vs hyperion, i wouldn't place any safe bets on that..i'd say 50/50, i don't think the resistance bonus outweights the rep bonus considering fights are never very long lasting, and the abaddon would cap out first.

no one says there is anything wrong with the amarr battleships (maybe apoc), not their capitals either, it's their battlecruisers (slightly) and their cruisers (mainly), their Hac's (zealot), and their command ships (the absolution slightly, and i mean slightly), their recons (seriously...nerfing drone boats...yeah right...).
There is fighting on non battleship level...

Archivian Specialatus
Amarr
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2007.11.22 22:47:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: adriaans
That fight with abaddon vs hyperion, i wouldn't place any safe bets on that..i'd say 50/50, i don't think the resistance bonus outweights the rep bonus considering fights are never very long lasting, and the abaddon would cap out first.



I've checked that partiuler test, and the abbadon will not cap out (max skills on both ships) but it would be close, though the abaddon will win. in real combat skills could be different and so could scenarios.


Originally by: adriaans
and their cruisers (mainly), their Hac's (zealot),


absolutley right.

Death Jump
Posted - 2007.11.23 03:36:00 - [24]
 

crosses this idea though

amarr has a cap problem bigger then all the rest.
ccc rigs ftw.....

and powergrid bonus, cause of high pg request from lasers.
these are for all ship ranges.

boost amarr,
don't nerf everything else, taking amarr with it.


 

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