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MingRan
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.14 21:52:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: MingRan on 14/11/2007 22:03:41
Edited by: MingRan on 14/11/2007 21:56:39
Edited by: MingRan on 14/11/2007 21:55:43
OMG, another whine thread from an gallente droneboat hugger !?!
Not really.

The reason I started another thread about this, isn`t that I want to keep *omgwtfpwn* droneboats, but I want to
keep a playstyle, which doesn`t just consist of: lock, F1-F7 .. *boom*.

Like Navick said in another thread, we droneboat users love our little buggers.
We want to see them zapping around, attacking/blowing stuff up and when they`re done, come back to mama (or not :P)
We are used to micromanage them, scoop them in, deploy another wave with a different damagetype, see them aggro whole missions and even loose them - because we have to warp or they just stopped 2000m in front of us instead of getting back.

We all know the disadvantages of drones:

- Time to get to target.
- No dps while scooping/redeploying.
- Can be shot down.
- Cost a lot of isk.

and at the same time there are advantages:

- They don`t need ammo
- Don`t eat up pg nor cap
- Don`t use any slots

And there seems to be the problem of droneboats:

Currently most droneboats are hybrids. More or less a bigger dronebay than other ships, but still able to yield
quite some firepower using guns.
Therefor some of them are overpowered, some less, some more.

But the current solution on the testserver is just by lowering the ability to use heavier drones.
Imho thats the wrong way, because so they are pushed away from their beloved role.
At the same time too use the maximum potential one has to mix 3 ! different sizes (with 75Mbit bandwith). That`s like using blasters and rails at the same time.

My suggestions, just based on the playstyle I like and not by fiddling around with numbers:

- Lower a droneboats overall ability to use guns/neuts/nos by lowering their pg/turret hardpoints.
- Remove gun bonuses from droneboats, adjust drone bonuses accordingly where necessary.
- Bring their dronebandwith to a reasonable level for their class counterparts.
- Adjust their dronebay size accordingly, that it takes a reasonable time till they turn into useless flying bricks.
- Make drones more reasonable priced or harder to kill.
- Introduce more drones, more sizes, more .. options like salvager drones etc and adjust the ships accordingly.

Another aspect which is completely missing from drones is heat. I can overload nearly every highslot module but nothing with drones.
By pushing droneboats more into their role (less turrets etc.) maybe some new highslot modules can be introduced (use a slot, eat up pg/cap), giving the ability to increase dronebandwith and support drones and at the same time can be overloaded ?

Just my 2 isk ... now flame me Rolling Eyes

(edited for typos)

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.11.14 22:11:00 - [2]
 

alternativly:

  • 1. Increase drone space, personally i would recommend Bandwith x 4 = Dronespace. Subsequently the Myrmidon and EOS would need a boost, how about 100Mbit bandwith?

  • 2. Healthbars for docked drones, if u remove instaregen before impelementing this, drone users will be really s.crewed (i know that u r working on it though)




  • 3. Add a drone repair system. i would vote against an AoE system as it increases lag. I would prefer a passive (increases cap recharge time) low slot system, which recharges shield of docked drones really fast (maybe even skill depended) and at a slower rate repairs their armor, and add one additional low slot too all drone boats. This way players can choose between beefing up their tank or auto repairing their drones.


  • 4. Introduce a highslot module that increases bandwith (20Mbit). This way you dont force players to use drones.

FawKa
Gallente
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.11.14 22:17:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa
alternativly:

  • 4. Introduce a highslot module that increases bandwith (20Mbit). This way you dont force players to use drones.



Rather get the Drone dmg mod back in the game as a Highslot module.
In that case the whole "The Moros got too powerfull"-dev response wont work as no freaking Moros pilot would fit those 4 H-slots any different than a standard dread.

Drone ships would in this case finally get their dmg mod and a use for their utility highslots if you dont go on the NOS-wagon.

/All men can dream, right?


Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.11.14 22:17:00 - [4]
 

while i am at it, why not turn dronebay into part of the cargohold --> myrmwould have 550m cargohold instead of 150 dronebeay and 400 cargo.. more flexibility.. YAY!

Ilvan
Gallente
Post with your Brain
Posted - 2007.11.14 22:19:00 - [5]
 

Fly an Ishtar or Domi if you want 5xHeavy.

MingRan
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.14 22:29:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa
while i am at it, why not turn dronebay into part of the cargohold --> myrmwould have 550m cargohold instead of 150 dronebeay and 400 cargo.. more flexibility.. YAY!


In the itemdatabase there is even something similar Shocked

Small Drone Hangar II
---------------------
This huge unit replaces part of a ships cargo hold with a large drone bay. It also causes a slight reduction in the ships maximum speed.

droneCapacityBonus 200
SpeedBonus -10m/sec
Cargo capacity Bonus -20%

But I think the numbers should be a little adjusted Laughing

FawKa
Gallente
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.11.14 22:34:00 - [7]
 

@ OP

Taking away turret slots and bonuses might not be as easy as it sounds.

Pre trinity the Myrm and the Dominix did the same drone dps as they had the same bonus.
Now you remove turrets.
Now the Dominix has no way what so ever to achieve more than 500 dps (no idea, just a number). If you then remove the 5% hybrid dmg bonus as adds another 10% to drones I really got some issues CCP should solve first:

Problem is that the turrets are well used as the Drone lacks certain things (you mentioned some):

- Time to get to target.
- No dps while scooping/redeploying.
- Can be shot down.
- Cost a lot of isk.
- No heat.
- No dmg mod.
- Doesnt insta rep shield
- No shortcuts
- Quite large signatures for being drones
- Bugs; following wrong target etc (still a problem on sisi)
- Lack of rigs to drones
- Not enough HP to drones (either less signature or more HP)
- Insanely anoying menu for drones
- etc

Conclusion is that I am as anoyid as you are. I have been spec'd in drones since I got my first BS so I know. However taking away turret slots simply aint an option as 'our' dps would fall to the ground.

FawKa
Gallente
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.11.14 22:37:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa
while i am at it, why not turn dronebay into part of the cargohold --> myrmwould have 550m cargohold instead of 150 dronebeay and 400 cargo.. more flexibility.. YAY!


I dont get why the size of the dronebay matters that much?
If you pirate drones aint really an option concidering the freaking sentries (will they ever get fixed so they dont insta pop droes?).
Thing is, PVP is shortrange and I really find it easy to scoop the drones in when fighting. Rather have them drones pump out more DPS (Give me my H-slot drone dmg mod) instead of letting the ones I have die because I have plenty spares ugh

MingRan
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.14 22:38:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Ilvan
Fly an Ishtar or Domi if you want 5xHeavy.


Guess what I do Shocked
And yes I fly Myrmidons too, without 5 heavies.
But I don`t mix 3 different sizes in one wave, currently I mostly use either a
2/3 wave to have some spares or 2 sets consisting of 4 heavies / 5 light for frig killing.



Navick
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.11.14 22:45:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Ilvan
Fly an Ishtar or Domi if you want 5xHeavy.


One more person on the "Suck it up and play the way I think you should" bandwagon.

I said it once, I'll say it again. I don't tell you how to play EVE, so don't tell me how to or what ships to fly either. Please respect your fellow players' rights to their own playstyle.

Ilvan
Gallente
Post with your Brain
Posted - 2007.11.14 22:46:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: MingRan
Originally by: Ilvan
Fly an Ishtar or Domi if you want 5xHeavy.


Guess what I do Shocked
And yes I fly Myrmidons too, without 5 heavies.
But I don`t mix 3 different sizes in one wave, currently I mostly use either a
2/3 wave to have some spares or 2 sets consisting of 4 heavies / 5 light for frig killing.




You don't have to mix sizes, use 3 heavies. Razz

Alternatively, you could just use 5 meds and ignore the leftover bandwidth.

Ilvan
Gallente
Post with your Brain
Posted - 2007.11.14 22:47:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Ilvan on 14/11/2007 22:59:25
Originally by: Navick
One more person on the "Suck it up and play the way I think you should" bandwagon.

I said it once, I'll say it again. I don't tell you how to play EVE, so don't tell me how to or what ships to fly either. Please respect your fellow players' rights to their own playstyle.

I'm not telling you how you should play. CCP is. I just happen to agree with them.

edit: Also, this "don't tell me how to play! Surprised" bull**** is laughable. This isn't a single player game where everything you do happens in a closed system. Balance issues in MMOs affect everyone, so if you can't handle the notion of CCP changing things you like for the sake of balance, GTFO.

Your 'playstyle' takes a back seat to the health of the game as a whole.

Igualmentedos
Caldari
Posted - 2007.11.14 22:52:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Igualmentedos on 14/11/2007 22:52:21
Originally by: Navick
Originally by: Ilvan
Fly an Ishtar or Domi if you want 5xHeavy.


One more person on the "Suck it up and play the way I think you should" bandwagon.

I said it once, I'll say it again. I don't tell you how to play EVE, so don't tell me how to or what ships to fly either. Please respect your fellow players' rights to their own playstyle.


One more person on the "I'm too much of a ***** to take game balance like a man" bandwagon.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.11.14 23:05:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Igualmentedos

One more person on the "I'm too much of a ***** to take game balance like a man" bandwagon.


My biggest complaint with the new changes is the lack of survivability of T2 drones in PVP. This issue has been acknowledged by CCP.

That said, IMHO, the drone ships should get a (huge) drone bay, a tank bonus, and a double "drone efficiency" bonus to drones of the relevant size.

But, that won't address the fact that drones will be far and away too expensive to use in PVP if this hits TQ without certain issues resolved.

Liang

MingRan
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.15 08:38:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: MingRan on 15/11/2007 08:54:26
Edited by: MingRan on 15/11/2007 08:42:26
Edited by: MingRan on 15/11/2007 08:41:53
Originally by: Ilvan

You don't have to mix sizes, use 3 heavies. Razz
Alternatively, you could just use 5 meds and ignore the leftover bandwidth.


With my initial post I didn`t actually talk about the Myrmidon (like you seem to do) but about the general approach of CCP of *nerfing* drone boats from the wrong direction.

They shouldn`t only adjust their dronebandwith/dronebays to tune them, but look at them as a whole.
Give them their role with big enough dronepower for their class, and then adjust the rest of the ship with whats left.

Its not that I am:
Originally by: Igualmentedos

One more person on the "I'm too much of a ***** to take game balance like a man" bandwagon.


I just say they seem to do it from the wrong side.

edit:

And I really hope at least when these changes hit TQ that all issues drones have now are fixed !!
There are still lots of bugs with drones !
Didn`t test everthing on Sisi, but for example they still can go after the wrong target etc...
Anyone tested if Warrior II finally MWD back to the ship everytime ?

edit2:

And you do realize that a mix does more dps than your suggestions, but is a lot more problematic to control ?

315 dps - 2 OgreII/2 Hammerhead II/1 HobgoblinII
285 dps - 3 OgreII
238 dps - 5 Hammerhead II

Ilvan
Gallente
Post with your Brain
Posted - 2007.11.15 10:14:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Ilvan on 15/11/2007 10:22:16
Originally by: MingRan

With my initial post I didn`t actually talk about the Myrmidon (like you seem to do) but about the general approach of CCP of *nerfing* drone boats from the wrong direction.

Sorry, the mention of 75mb/s in your first post made it look like a Myrm-specific complaint.

For what it's worth only a handful of drone boats are getting an actual drones-in-flight nerf, and all of them currently do abnormally high damage for a ship of their class. The Vexor/Ishtar/Domi are still potent ships.
Originally by: MingRan

And you do realize that a mix does more dps than your suggestions, but is a lot more problematic to control ?

315 dps - 2 OgreII/2 Hammerhead II/1 HobgoblinII
285 dps - 3 OgreII
238 dps - 5 Hammerhead II

Yeah, it's a pain in the ass. Still worth the trouble IMO.

I will concede that 80 mb/s would be a much nicer number to work with however. Much less size mixing required for full utilization and barely more DPS than the 2/2/1 mix you get with 75 mb/s.

MingRan
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.16 11:30:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Ilvan

I will concede that 80 mb/s would be a much nicer number to work with however. Much less size mixing required for full utilization and barely more DPS than the 2/2/1 mix you get with 75 mb/s.


Yeah 80mbit would be great, as its increase only gives about ~20 dps more, but safes one from mixing 3 sizes.


 

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