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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.11.14 10:21:00 - [1]
 

Why not? It's basically worthless as a drone ship. Give it a 7.5% bonus to medium hybrid damage per level, remove the drone DPS/HP bonus, keep everything else the same.

Dark Voynix
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2007.11.14 10:25:00 - [2]
 

Why? u have the brutix wuth exacply this role.

Do u want a brutix with a myrm hull just because u find it pretty?

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.11.14 10:40:00 - [3]
 

The Myrm is already half way there. With the new changes, it does crap dps with it's guns, and crap dps with it's drones. I'd like to see it have some focus.

The Brutix can't fit a tank unless it is using electron blasters. If you fit Ions, you can't fit a dual rep tank, or a single rep and an 800 plate, once you fit an mwd and medium cap booster. Plus the 5 lows is just junk compared to the Myrm's 6. Makes a huge difference.

The problem with the Myrm is that it can't fight well at low sec gates where your drones get popped, and without it's drones out in full force, it does crap DPS. Much less DPS than any other Tier 2 BC.

Right now it has no focus. So if it's not going to be focused on being a drone ship, then make it into a nice gun ship, and just bin the drone bonuses.

Lila Acumen
Posted - 2007.11.14 11:02:00 - [4]
 

I dont see why ccp nerfed the dornes honestly . Why not jsut remove turret slots or high slots wtf oyu doing removing drones if its a droen ship???? Reduce 2 high slots it will be balanced and still a drone ship instead of a bad inbetween

Buyerr
Posted - 2007.11.14 11:04:00 - [5]
 

drones have always been a secondary weaponry, which have taken overhand, your not suppose to ONLY use drones.
if you use blaster+drones gallente get the most insane dps,
any one trying to kill of all the drones on a blaster+drone ship especially a ship as the myrm will either 1:be able to kill it very fast without killing the drones or 2: be dead because of the time it takes to finish of all those drones.

so stop whining and realize the balance.

Loc Maythan
Gallente
Ty Bach
Posted - 2007.11.14 11:08:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Loc Maythan on 14/11/2007 11:12:07
It seems to me that if they want to nerf the Myrm because it is "too powerful", they should not be reducing the number of heavy drones it can fly, but reducing the number of guns it can fit.

It already (TQ) has only 17 slots in total, in a 6/5/6 configuration compared to the 18 slot, 8/4/6 or 8/6/4 configuration of the other tier 2 battlecruisers, to compensate for the drones and drone bonuses. Why not remove another high slot or turret hardpoint rather than reducing the number of drones (2 slots/hardpoints if necessary), as the drone bonuses and lack of gun bonuses obviously means it is intended to be a drone boat?

If people want to fly a Gallente gun-boat battlecruiser, they have the Brutix (7 turrets and gun bonus). If people want to use drones - those like me who have a great deal of time invested in drone skills - leave them the Myrm with its drones, and reduce the damage output by removing guns.

I think the same philosophy should apply to many of the other proposed drone changes - if the ship has a drone bonus, it is a drone boat, so leave drones alone and reduce other damage types.

As an aside, but following the same philosophy, when you (CCP) are looking at a new nerf for carriers, please consider leaving the drones/fighters as they are, but reducing the tank - reducing armour or removing a low slot or two, for example on the Thanatos - thus leaving them with their defining quality - the ability to carry and fly lots of drones - but making them more dependent on fleet support.

Loc.

Loc Maythan
Gallente
Ty Bach
Posted - 2007.11.14 11:29:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Buyerr
drones have always been a secondary weaponry, which have taken overhand, your not suppose to ONLY use drones.


If people choose to use drones as their primary weapon, why not let them - people use missiles (Raven) or guns (Hyperion) as their primary weapons, so why not drones (Domi). I would pay a lot for a battleship with the Domi drone bonuses, the ability to fly more than 5 drones, but no turrets - well, maybe one for getting aggro.

And before anyone says "that describes the Thanatos", I'm not talking about something which can't enter high sec, and can't use gates, though a 1b pricetag would have been acceptable.

I was rather hoping that the Sin, when I first saw that it was based on the Domi, was going to be more along those lines, instead of being exactly like the Domi (in terms of drones) except a rather useless +25m3 of drone space. There are Marauders for people with missile skills, and for people with gun skills, but not for people with drone skills.

My drones feel sad and unloved :-(

Loc.

Murtough Galaktikus
Black-Wing
Posted - 2007.11.14 12:25:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Murtough Galaktikus on 14/11/2007 12:28:39
Originally by: Buyerr
if you use blaster+drones gallente get the most insane dps



true. but tbh like the topic starter mentioned: the myrm is useless. no dmg boni at all and no drone dmg. So what kind of balance is that? Its like a can with higher resis now.

*edit* typing

Bishop 5
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.11.14 12:39:00 - [9]
 

Agreed that the Myrm in it's current state on SiSi is rubbish.

Leave the drones alone and remove turret hardpoints.

Or, leave it the way it is now and remove two turret/missile hardpoints off the other t2 'GANK' BCs

Alexei Morgenstern
Minmatar
256 FREELANCERS
FREELANCER ALLIANCE
Posted - 2007.11.14 12:44:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Murtough Galaktikus
Edited by: Murtough Galaktikus on 14/11/2007 12:28:39
Originally by: Buyerr
if you use blaster+drones gallente get the most insane dps



true. but tbh like the topic starter mentioned: the myrm is useless. no dmg boni at all and no drone dmg. So what kind of balance is that? Its like a can with higher resis now.

*edit* typing


Ah yes, no drone dmg... what are you fielding all ECM drones or something? I think you meant "less drone dmg". Alright so now that we have established that the Myrm still does indeed deal damage with its drones, you've got 6 turret hardpoints, which also, SHOCKINGLY, can produce DPS. All in all, you don't get the previous barn-burner DPS, but theres still decent damage there. Everyone also seems to completely ignore that the myrm has a secondary bonus to rep, giving it an incredibly good active tank for a BC. Hey on top of that we have 5 mids, enough for all the essentials and a bonus slot! Looks totally "useless" to me...Rolling Eyes

Murtough Galaktikus
Black-Wing
Posted - 2007.11.14 12:45:00 - [11]
 

as i said: a can with higher resis. no bonus to guns and attacking with easier popping "rocks" will deal no dmg at all. a laugh to all other dmg dealing bcs.

Lila Acumen
Posted - 2007.11.14 12:50:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Buyerr
drones have always been a secondary weaponry, which have taken overhand, your not suppose to ONLY use drones.
if you use blaster+drones gallente get the most insane dps,
any one trying to kill of all the drones on a blaster+drone ship especially a ship as the myrm will either 1:be able to kill it very fast without killing the drones or 2: be dead because of the time it takes to finish of all those drones.

so stop whining and realize the balance.


You sir are totaly dim witted! Who says they are not supposed to be a primary weapon you say???? Well the point of it is not that the myrm has less dps or anythign but that they are nerfing the myrms PRIMARY weapon which it gains bonuses too when they hsould nerf the high slots to brign it into line. I have invested 5 mil sp into drones = 5 months of work thats getting F*** over with these nerfs! And what the hell is up with all the races getting dorne bay boosts but galente???

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2007.11.14 13:07:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Bishop 5
Agreed that the Myrm in it's current state on SiSi is rubbish.

Leave the drones alone and remove turret hardpoints.

Or, leave it the way it is now and remove two turret/missile hardpoints off the other t2 'GANK' BCs


Drake was designed for gank setups? Maybe it's the only one not being able to gank for real (Or I am a total dumbass when it comes to missiles, which might be the case!).

Myrmidon using neutron blaster II and 3 magstab with 2 heavies, 2 meds and 1 light (75 m3 of drones) will be just as good as the harbinger in a gank setup. Only involved T2 equipement and faction ammo in the setups... Before, it was better but could not replace lost drones, now, it does same (or slightly more) damage and has to launch drones to replace lost ones, but can hold twice more than it will launch...
It's... Balanced? Maybe you don't like balanced things?

Hurricane seems to hurt a bit less, but the damage types are very varied when it comes to minmatar ammo, so it should do the trick.

MingRan
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.14 13:39:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: MingRan on 14/11/2007 13:53:21
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The Myrm is already half way there. With the new changes, it does crap dps with it's guns, and crap dps with it's drones. I'd like to see it have some focus.



Then IMHO your initial post is the wrong direction. We already have a blaster BC.
I`d say, go the other direction, make it a real drone carrier. Take away turret slots, gimp the PG => lower possible turret dps ,but leave mission runners some turrets for aggroing and prevent to many NOS/Neuts.
Leave the Drone DPS intact, or at least nearly.

Gallente have a drone ship in nearly every class, so keep the drone role for the Myrmidon.

I`ve invested ~6 million SP into drones and I just don`t want to slowboat around in a Domi (need some more time for a HAC too).

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2007.11.14 14:13:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: MingRan
Then IMHO your initial post is the wrong direction. We already have a blaster BC.
I`d say, go the other direction, make it a real drone carrier. Take away turret slots, gimp the PG, but leave the drones where they are (or at least a 3heavy/2med bandwith).
Gallente have a drone ship in every class, so keep the drone role for the Myrmidon.


You're right, in every race, there are two or more directions.
Amarr : super armor tanking/laser ganking => Prophecy and Harbinger, maller and omen...
Caldari : Long range gunboats/Full missile boats => Ferox and drake, rokh and raven, moa and caracal...
Minmatar : Armor tanking/Shield tanking => Cyclone and hurricane, Typhoon and maelstrom...
Gallente : Hybrids/Drones => Brutix and Myrmidon, Thorax and Vexor, Megathron and Dominix.

So, the Myrmidon can't be the same as the brutix : a blaster gank ship.

Removing turrets and adding to dronebay & bandwidth would be better than what we got here.
If turrets are removed and the 5 heavies are given back, it could be an equal match with other tier 2 BCs.

With 3 less turret slots, 125Mb bandwidth and 250 m3 dronebay (twice bandwidth as now to have spares), it would match the other BCs in firepower and tank more (not more than the drake which has still less firepower).

One of the high slots even becomes useless...

It would be a nice long range BC on sentries too.

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.11.14 14:51:00 - [16]
 

i dont really get your point guys...
Yes the damage of the myrm is reduced, but it will still do incredible damage compared to other tier 2 not to mention tier 1 BCs.
Secondly atm you can use ACs on it and still preform better than the other BCs.
You can fit a neut and still do the same damage like the other BCs.

The only really bad thing is that it doesnt do significantly more damage than a vexor and that the dronebay is too small....

Darth Felin
Posted - 2007.11.14 14:58:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa
i dont really get your point guys...
Yes the damage of the myrm is reduced, but it will still do incredible damage compared to other tier 2 not to mention tier 1 BCs.
Secondly atm you can use ACs on it and still preform better than the other BCs.
You can fit a neut and still do the same damage like the other BCs.

The only really bad thing is that it doesnt do significantly more damage than a vexor and that the dronebay is too small....


I bet that problem is that they mostly removed the role of drone boat from Myrm. There were only few of them and with Trinity Myrmidon and Eos won't be droneboats anymore. Noone says they are overpowered but many asks for another way to balance them. So they can stay as droneboats.

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.11.14 15:02:00 - [18]
 

Personally i would increase drone bay size significantly for flexibility and spares and set bandwith at 90Mbit to seperate it from the Vexor..

But read the full story.. --> Linkage

Lord DarkStar
Gallente
Diggers and Riggers
Posted - 2007.11.14 15:03:00 - [19]
 

All i have to say is im glad i went for bs 5 instead of bc 5 :P

Stersi
Amarr
SAF INC
Posted - 2007.11.14 15:16:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Stersi on 14/11/2007 15:20:09
I love how all your gallente balancing threads make them overpowered, 7.5% damage bonus?, regular damage bonus us 5% why should it be more for gallente ships?.

And in other point other bc's specially harbinguer have to sacrifice a LOT of it's tank, ever tried fitting heavy pulses with mwd and injector? (to even fit close to myrm dps you need 2-3 dmg mods and fitting mod) let alone the cap use and lack of ew.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2007.11.14 16:33:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Stersi
Edited by: Stersi on 14/11/2007 15:20:09
I love how all your gallente balancing threads make them overpowered, 7.5% damage bonus?, regular damage bonus us 5% why should it be more for gallente ships?.

And in other point other bc's specially harbinguer have to sacrifice a LOT of it's tank, ever tried fitting heavy pulses with mwd and injector? (to even fit close to myrm dps you need 2-3 dmg mods and fitting mod) let alone the cap use and lack of ew.


You're totally right about the 'regular' bonus. If a ships is a gunboat, it usually gets more turrets and a damage (or rate of fire which is better but may cost cap) bonus.

Having a drone BC and a blaster BC makes more sense than having twice the same, one with a bit more drones and other with one more turret... This would be crap, making everything the same!

So, no one likes the 'take some turrets off and give everything to dronebay' theory for gallente droneships?
I thought that was precisely how people used the myrmidon for some time, not much turrets, much nosf and utility/drone links...

MingRan
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.14 16:45:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: MingRan on 14/11/2007 16:46:52
Originally by: Stersi
Edited by: Stersi on 14/11/2007 15:20:09
I love how all your gallente balancing threads make them overpowered, 7.5% damage bonus?, regular damage bonus us 5% why should it be more for gallente ships?.

And in other point other bc's specially harbinguer have to sacrifice a LOT of it's tank, ever tried fitting heavy pulses with mwd and injector? (to even fit close to myrm dps you need 2-3 dmg mods and fitting mod) let alone the cap use and lack of ew.


Most serious Myrm pilots don`t say the Myrm isn`t overpowered (at least I don`t).
All I want is a different way of bringing it into line with other BC`s.

I don`t say anything about removing the insta-shield-recharge scoop/deploy tactic (and lots of other drone users will disagree here ;)

I`m fine with not being able to use 5 heavys (never did: spares??), but I don`t like to be forced to use
a mix of 2/2/1 for max. potential (maybe because light ones are still bugged ? *HINT* ).
At least a 2heavy/3medium mix should be possible (80Mbit). A 3/2 mix would be great :)

I`m fine with removing turret points and/or lowering PG, but then at least leave our primary weapon as it is.
Drones already have a lot of drawbacks versus guns/missiles, let`s just say, a babysitter would be nice sometimes :P

But the OP`s idea of converting the Myrmidon into another Pew-Pew ship is just plain wrong.

ps: the boni are: 10% to drone dmg/hp, 7.5% armore rep per level ;)

Bishop 5
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.11.14 17:08:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Bishop 5 on 14/11/2007 17:08:13
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac


With 3 less turret slots, 125Mb bandwidth and 250 m3 dronebay (twice bandwidth as now to have spares), it would match the other BCs in firepower and tank more (not more than the drake which has still less firepower).




This is the best idea i've seen so far on the Myrmidon. Don't nerf the drones, nerf the turrets as that's where people can make totally unflyable setups in EFT with uber DPS from.

edit *can't quote properly; I r nub*

Stersi
Amarr
SAF INC
Posted - 2007.11.14 18:04:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Bishop 5
Edited by: Bishop 5 on 14/11/2007 17:08:13
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac


With 3 less turret slots, 125Mb bandwidth and 250 m3 dronebay (twice bandwidth as now to have spares), it would match the other BCs in firepower and tank more (not more than the drake which has still less firepower).




This is the best idea i've seen so far on the Myrmidon. Don't nerf the drones, nerf the turrets as that's where people can make totally unflyable setups in EFT with uber DPS from.

edit *can't quote properly; I r nub*


In my opinion 125Mbit bandwith and 250M drone bay could be a good change, in exchange myrm would need to give up power grid, lets say enough for, Dual mar II, mwd II, med injector II and one gang module + 50PG, so it doesn't just become in a neut mobile with heavy drones and replacements.

Spenz
Gallente
PCG Enterprises
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2007.11.14 18:43:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Spenz on 14/11/2007 18:43:38
Originally by: Stersi
Originally by: Bishop 5
Edited by: Bishop 5 on 14/11/2007 17:08:13
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac


With 3 less turret slots, 125Mb bandwidth and 250 m3 dronebay (twice bandwidth as now to have spares), it would match the other BCs in firepower and tank more (not more than the drake which has still less firepower).




This is the best idea i've seen so far on the Myrmidon. Don't nerf the drones, nerf the turrets as that's where people can make totally unflyable setups in EFT with uber DPS from.

edit *can't quote properly; I r nub*


In my opinion 125Mbit bandwith and 250M drone bay could be a good change, in exchange myrm would need to give up power grid, lets say enough for, Dual mar II, mwd II, med injector II and one gang module + 50PG, so it doesn't just become in a neut mobile with heavy drones and replacements.



Erm yeah lets give it its drones, but to quell the EFT whiners lets turn it into a glass cannon too. That suggestion brings this ship back to square 1. You restore 1 bonus (drones) only to destroy another (7.5% armor rep).

The 3 issues that made the Myrmidon "overpowered":

NOS...Status: Nerfed

Dronebay scoop bug...Status: Fixed

EFT...Status: Still breeding whiners 1 fit at a time

Technically with trinity the myrmidon shouldn't be a problem anymore. Those "expert pilots" who didn't try to destroy drones for some reason and used the scoop bug for an excuse no longer have that excuse (and need to grow a brain) and NOS is no longer be-all-end-all.

Alas it wont change anything. CCP is on a role this patch and nothing will stop them.

Stersi
Amarr
SAF INC
Posted - 2007.11.14 19:00:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Spenz
Edited by: Spenz on 14/11/2007 18:43:38
Originally by: Stersi
Originally by: Bishop 5
Edited by: Bishop 5 on 14/11/2007 17:08:13
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac


With 3 less turret slots, 125Mb bandwidth and 250 m3 dronebay (twice bandwidth as now to have spares), it would match the other BCs in firepower and tank more (not more than the drake which has still less firepower).




This is the best idea i've seen so far on the Myrmidon. Don't nerf the drones, nerf the turrets as that's where people can make totally unflyable setups in EFT with uber DPS from.

edit *can't quote properly; I r nub*


In my opinion 125Mbit bandwith and 250M drone bay could be a good change, in exchange myrm would need to give up power grid, lets say enough for, Dual mar II, mwd II, med injector II and one gang module + 50PG, so it doesn't just become in a neut mobile with heavy drones and replacements.



Erm yeah lets give it its drones, but to quell the EFT whiners lets turn it into a glass cannon too. That suggestion brings this ship back to square 1. You restore 1 bonus (drones) only to destroy another (7.5% armor rep).

The 3 issues that made the Myrmidon "overpowered":

NOS...Status: Nerfed

Dronebay scoop bug...Status: Fixed

EFT...Status: Still breeding whiners 1 fit at a time

Technically with trinity the myrmidon shouldn't be a problem anymore. Those "expert pilots" who didn't try to destroy drones for some reason and used the scoop bug for an excuse no longer have that excuse (and need to grow a brain) and NOS is no longer be-all-end-all.

Alas it wont change anything. CCP is on a role this patch and nothing will stop them.


I dont see the glass cannon part, my suggestion keeps the myrm tanking the same as it does today but not a lot of fitting room to fit extra turrets/neuts unless tank(by fitting mods or pg rigs), injector or mwd are sacrificed pretty much like all other bcs, not a lol 700dps and 500dps tank in your face ship.

Navick
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.11.14 19:17:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa
i dont really get your point guys...
Yes the damage of the myrm is reduced, but it will still do incredible damage compared to other tier 2 not to mention tier 1 BCs.
Secondly atm you can use ACs on it and still preform better than the other BCs.
You can fit a neut and still do the same damage like the other BCs.

The only really bad thing is that it doesnt do significantly more damage than a vexor and that the dronebay is too small....


You're right, you aren't getting the point. The point is, most of us who fly Myrmidons fly them because we like drones. We fly a dedicated drone ship because we like the playstyle of fighting by launching little fighter drones out to attack our target. If we wanted to fly a gunship, and do "incredible damage" with an asston of close range guns and press F1-F7 all day like 75% of the rest of the ships in this game, we'd fly a Brutix.

The Myrmidon's bonuses define the ship as an armor-tanking drone carrier. That's EVE Online 101, guys... bonuses to turret range = sniper, bonuses to ROF = close DPS ship, bonuses to drones and no gun bonuses whatsoever = drone carrier and nothing else. What this ship needs to balance it out is not weaker drone DPS and drones that are easy to kill. What it needs is a reduction in the amount of turrets it can fit. Nerfing drone usage across the entire playfield to "balance" one or two ships is akin to nerfing hybrid turrets 'cause ship X does too much blaster damage, or nerfing all Nosferatu modules 'cause one ship can fit 6 of them and drain your cap to zero in about 8 seconds from 40+ km away.

Oh, wait...

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.11.14 19:42:00 - [28]
 

You do realize that the OP suggested the complete opposite of what you just wrote and that was what i was replying to.

Secondly the myrmidon was never supposed to field 5 heavies allthough in the 75Mbit version it is underpowered compared to the original model.

Thirdly ignoring the scoop nerf, if i had to choose between a 3 turret+gimped PG 125Mbit Myrm and the sisi myrm, i'd choose the later one. trading guns for bigger drones is unreasonable.

And lastly, keeping a civil tongue usually helps people to take you more seriously...

MingRan
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.14 20:14:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Duhmad IbnRa
trading guns for bigger drones is unreasonable.



Nope, it`s choosing a playstyle.
That`s why I fly Ishkur`s, Vexor`s, Ishtar`s and Myrmidon`s and invested more than 6 Mill SP into droneskills.
If I just wanted to Pew-Pew everything i`d use Blasterboats or maybe wouldn`t even be Gallente.

Dzajic
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.14 20:32:00 - [30]
 

Im sick of seeing the "full rack of neutron IIs and 3 magstabs" EFT setups.

1. You have 3 lows to fit tank. You cant passive shield tank it anyway, since you are using hybrids which eat cap.
2. You have exactly 250CPU and 300 grid to fit MWD, cap booster, web/scram... Even if you have a dedicated tackler, you need MWD and CBII, and you cant fit them.

It is a completely pointless setup, usable only to "prove" uber DPS of Gallente ships.


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