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Kirishina
Ausbruch
Posted - 2007.11.13 21:09:00 - [1]
 

Pretty straight forward question.

Do you think the Golem will be a better lvl 4 mission runner then a Caldari Navy Raven now?

Below are the details atm :

Golem

* Hull: Raven / Lai Dai
* Slots: 7/7/4, 4 missiles
* Fitting: 715tf, 6,500mw
* Drones: 75Mbit/s bandwidth, 75m3 dronebay
* Sensors: 14pt gravimetric, 10 target locks
* Propulsion: 125m/s, 110,000,000kg
* Tech II resistance bonus: 25% thermal, 12.5% kinetic

Bonuses:

* 10% bonus to BS class missile velocity per Caldari BS level
* 10% bonus to BS class missile explosion velocity per Caldari BS level
* 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per Marauder level
* 7.5% bonus to target painters per Marauder level
* Role bonus: 100% bonus to BS class missile damage
* Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams

The target painter bonus is quite effective in combination with missiles even against frigates if they are not using MWDs.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=513

Aarla
Posted - 2007.11.13 22:39:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Aarla on 13/11/2007 22:39:32
as said in many of post like this , Golems dps gets killed by Defenders

Boomhaur
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.11.13 22:45:00 - [3]
 

The CNR does more DPS from looking at the stats you posted on the Golem. But the Golem does look nice at the very least. The Golem has 4 missile slots with 100% dmg bounus which equals 8 missiles. The CNR has the ROF bounus going off mememory and 7 missile slots which makes it come out to 9.31 missile which is a 1.16375% bounus in dmg over the Golem.

But the 2 main DMG related issues I see is that if you use Cruise with the Golem and lets say 1 missile out of every 4 your fire in a mission gets shot down by a defender (very likely) than they just knocked off 25% of your missile DPS right there. But on the other side you have the ability to lite up your targets with a huge sig radius to do more dmg with the target painter thanks to the bounus, which helps a lot if you fight a lot of little guys.

This can really be argued either way, but personally I say the Golem is more for a mission runner who doesnt want to worry about anything (target painter bounus, resist bounuses, and shield boost bounus may do that to them). And the CNR is probably still going to be for the mission runner trying to earn isk the fastest.


d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.11.14 01:12:00 - [4]
 

cnr:

has better range w/torps arround 51k to golems 47k -> can fit 3 flighttime/speed rigs
has better dps
has similar alpha
has worse tank

golem:
has better tank
has slightly better alpha (arround 500 dmg/volley)

i'd go for the cnr with flighttime rigs or cruisemissiles.




Night Doc
Posted - 2007.11.14 03:15:00 - [5]
 

As long as I know (looking at the database raw data) defenders are shut based on a percentage. So, if you shoot 100 you will lose the same amount of missiles with a Raven or a CNR or a Golem or a Apocalyse or a ...

Lets see what happens ie with a Mercenary Overlord
It has a 20% chance to shoot defender at incoming missile

If the CNR shoot 10 missiles, 2 of them would be destroyed by defenders
If the Golem shoot 10 missiles, 2 of them would be destroyed by defenders

The relative DPSs of the ships are lowered by the same percentage, so defenders does not affect your dps calcs.


Aarla
Posted - 2007.11.14 07:02:00 - [6]
 

well a little flaw in that , Mercnary Overlord usely orbit at less the 10km = no defenders

iudex
Posted - 2007.11.14 07:05:00 - [7]
 

CNR or Golem depends on how you do missions.

I do my missions afk with f.o.f missiles, while having a permarunning tank that can tank anything lvl 4s have to offer, so additional tank, tp bonus or extra slots for tractor beams are useless for this type of missionrunning, i'll stay with the cnr and it's ~16.7 % more base dps.

For active missionrunning the Golem will probably win due the tractorbeam bonus and more cargospace. Picking up alot of loot without extra time for a lootship-run adds up in isk/h quite nicely.

Future missions: CCP announced there will be more new missions, so maybe they will give us some very tough ones, where that extra tank of the Golem might matter. However, from what i've seen in the course of 2 years gametime, this won't happen: if a mission will be really that hard so that it can't be tanked well with an expensive gist x-type xl tank, a lot of people, who do mission with less expensive gear (or even t2)will lose their ravens and start a huge whine-fest in the forums (2 new threads about this issue every day, people announce to quit with their 20 accounts etc.), and the new hard mission will be nerfed within weeks, at least thats what happened in the past several times (e.g. with "stop the thief" or "enemies abound 1/5").

Defenders: To be honest i don't feel them much. My cruises go with 8.4km/s (without any rigs) and probably that's the reason. I know when i trained missile velocity to 5, rachen (the phat bs from vegeance, which is the goughest rat lvl4s can offer) suddenly died quite fast, where i needed a whole launcher load in the past, it now died with like 16-17 x 7 cruise missiles. But i'm not quite sure though, as this was the time where i upgraded my equipment, so maybe that was the reason. But if it's true, and defenders don't catch much of the cruise missiles if they go with 8.4m/s, this would be a simple solution for the gollum: simply train missile velocity up. But again this is only a theory, can't say it for sure.


Qui Shon
Posted - 2007.11.14 08:05:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: d026
cnr:

has better range w/torps arround 51k to golems 47k -> can fit 3 flighttime/speed rigs




2x T2 rigs I see. Hmm. How much are those these days?

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.11.14 08:11:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: iudex
CNR or Golem depends on how you do missions.

For active missionrunning the Golem will probably win due the tractorbeam bonus and more cargospace. Picking up alot of loot without extra time for a lootship-run adds up in isk/h quite nicely.



In active missionrunning CNR actually would win as if you are doing it properly you don't have free lock slots nor time to mess with looting while sky is white with explosions. It's matter of definition tho how you define active missionrunning ofc. For me it means that i'm actively managing my shieldbooster and manually distributing fire to not waste any firepower.

Any battleships (and many battlecruisers) can already tank level 4 missions without needing to warp out. After that 'minimal' tanking ability you need for lev 4 missions only thing that matters is damage you can reliably put into your targets.

Viscount Stoko
Posted - 2007.11.14 10:44:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: iudex
CNR or Golem depends on how you do missions.

I do my missions afk with f.o.f missiles, while having a permarunning tank that can tank anything lvl 4s have to offer, ...




Q. If you're AFK how do you get your missiles to re-activate once they've reloaded??

Night Doc
Posted - 2007.11.14 11:19:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Aarla
well a little flaw in that , Mercnary Overlord usely orbit at less the 10km = no defenders

Well, it must travel to you, until that, it uses defenders. If you don't see what I mean, try looking at this this one or this other one...

Just try to focus on the MESSAGE: defenders do not affect your dps comparisons


Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.11.14 11:27:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Viscount Stoko

Q. If you're AFK how do you get your missiles to re-activate once they've reloaded??



Put paperweight on f1 to f7 buttons.

Works with MWD on 'afk tavel' setups so I don't see why it should not work with missiles, altho CCP does not like 'paperweight' tackiks (it was under discussion a while ago when someone asked for the best 'afk travel' setup and some dev told us it's borderline exploit and they don't like it, but that they can't do anything against it atm).

I'm myself preferring 'active' setups tho as I'm not ritch enough to afford good enough permatank Wink

iudex
Posted - 2007.11.14 11:29:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Viscount Stoko
Originally by: iudex
CNR or Golem depends on how you do missions.

I do my missions afk with f.o.f missiles, while having a permarunning tank that can tank anything lvl 4s have to offer, ...




Q. If you're AFK how do you get your missiles to re-activate once they've reloaded??



It's not 100% AFK ofc. You have to klick on acceleration gates, and around every 3 minutes (depends on skills/launchers/fittings) hit F1-F7. This takes 1-2 seconds, compared to someone who has to target every singel ship, activate launchers on evry ship etc. i called this afk missionrunning as you can do other things than actually looking at the screen or klicking around.

@Carniflex: Max locked targets: Raven: 7, Golem: 10.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.11.14 11:31:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: iudex

@Carniflex: Max locked targets: Raven: 7, Golem: 10.


My CNR has max 10 targets (auto targeter I + signal amp II) and I'm usually quite busy shooting stuff.

d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.11.14 12:22:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: d026 on 14/11/2007 12:24:14
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: d026
cnr:

has better range w/torps arround 51k to golems 47k -> can fit 3 flighttime/speed rigs




2x T2 rigs I see. Hmm. How much are those these days?


you can only use 1 x TII rig on the cnr. anyway if you can afford a gist booster you can also invest some isk in a tII rig...

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2007.11.14 16:26:00 - [16]
 

For missions, Navy Raven is still top dog IMO.

For 0.0 ratting the Golem spanks it.

The t2 ships were not intended to replace any ship.

Will the Golem be better than a Raven for missions? Probably. But you know what I use? Normal raven. :)

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2007.11.14 16:31:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Night Doc
As long as I know (looking at the database raw data) defenders are shut based on a percentage. So, if you shoot 100 you will lose the same amount of missiles with a Raven or a CNR or a Golem or a Apocalyse or a ...

Lets see what happens ie with a Mercenary Overlord
It has a 20% chance to shoot defender at incoming missile

If the CNR shoot 10 missiles, 2 of them would be destroyed by defenders
If the Golem shoot 10 missiles, 2 of them would be destroyed by defenders

The relative DPSs of the ships are lowered by the same percentage, so defenders does not affect your dps calcs.


That's misleading as all hell.

Originally by: Night Doc
If the CNR shoot 10 missiles, 2 of them would be destroyed by defenders
If the Golem shoot 10 missiles, 2 of them would be destroyed by defenders

That's accurate as far as it goes. However, the CNR can shoot 10 missiles in a MUCH shorter time span. So the Golem does indeed get spanked by defenders. Now, if you use torpedos you don't really have to worry about defenders since it takes three to shoot one down. And then the golem might be the better choice. Especially with that better tank and TP bonus. Only problem is the range, but most rats orbit at 50km or less, so it's not that bad. You'll have to move around for a change, but it's not that big a deal.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.11.14 17:54:00 - [18]
 

Actually defenders do actually affect both ships equally. Look at missiles per minute, you will see that both ships will lose equal % of those to defenders. Say (arbitary numbers) Golem shoots 30 missiles (4 launchers) and Raven shoots 60 missiles (6 launchers + RoF bonus) and both of them will lose 50% of them to defenders then Golem would end with 15 missiles and Raven with 30 missiles and actual damage would be same they both do.

As far as 'defenders are % based on each launched missile' - that is confirmed by dev recently altho I don't have link at hand.

Note, that numbers are not EVE based but rather arbitary just for example.

Vandalias
Posted - 2007.11.15 01:43:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: iudex
Defenders: To be honest i don't feel them much. My cruises go with 8.4km/s (without any rigs) and probably that's the reason. I know when i trained missile velocity to 5, rachen (the phat bs from vegeance, which is the goughest rat lvl4s can offer) suddenly died quite fast, where i needed a whole launcher load in the past, it now died with like 16-17 x 7 cruise missiles. But i'm not quite sure though, as this was the time where i upgraded my equipment, so maybe that was the reason. But if it's true, and defenders don't catch much of the cruise missiles if they go with 8.4m/s, this would be a simple solution for the gollum: simply train missile velocity up. But again this is only a theory, can't say it for sure.


I completely agree with that point. Just took out Rachen in a CNR with 3x CN BCU in a total of 12 volleys with the assistance of 5x Hammerhead IIs. The defenders took out some of the missiles for sure, but I did see alot fly off into space since the cruise missiles hit before the defenders could.

Crellion
Parental Control
Merciless.
Posted - 2007.11.15 11:44:00 - [20]
 

ummm wrong :

if you lose 2 cruise per volley to defenders CNR loses 2/7 ths of its DPS while Golem loses 2/4 ths of its DPS

The bonus it has is 100% dmg per missle not 100% damage and hitpoints per missle (ehehehehe) so think again dudes :)

Trigos Trilobi
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.11.15 11:59:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Crellion
ummm wrong :

if you lose 2 cruise per volley to defenders CNR loses 2/7 ths of its DPS while Golem loses 2/4 ths of its DPS

The bonus it has is 100% dmg per missle not 100% damage and hitpoints per missle (ehehehehe) so think again dudes :)


I think you should take your own advice and think again :)
Defenders are chance based / missile, every time you launch missile, npc ship has x% chance to launch a defender. so, both ships lose equal % of missiles (and dps).

Aarla
Posted - 2007.11.15 12:03:00 - [22]
 

d026 if the changes on sisi hits tranq , you can use 2xt2 rigs and 1xt1 rig.

cause what have missed most ppl attention is they have changed calibation on ships , CNR gotten from 350 to 400 , i think rest of the ships have too.

Saietor Blackgreen
Armored Saints
Posted - 2007.11.15 12:12:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Crellion
ummm wrong :
if you lose 2 cruise per volley to defenders CNR loses 2/7 ths of its DPS while Golem loses 2/4 ths of its DPS
The bonus it has is 100% dmg per missle not 100% damage and hitpoints per missle (ehehehehe) so think again dudes :)


FFS, defenders do not kill 2 cruise per volley! They will FIRE at fixed PERCENTAGE of launched missiles. Per volley, per minute, per year, whatever!

(arbitary numbers!) You are fighting an enemy BS, firing 100 cruises/minute at him. NPC BS has 20% chance of firing defender at your cruise missile. Each time you fire a cruise 20% chance of defender being fired. If 1 defender kills 1 cruise missile then you'll have 20% of your 100 missiles killed, hitting him with 80 missiles, for 10 damage each = 800 hp/minute.

If you're using Golem instead of Raven, firing 50 missiles/min, you'll STILL have 20% of your missiles taken down, thus losing 10 missiles, which with 100% golems to damage will give you 40*10*2=800 damage/minute.

See?

d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.11.15 13:13:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Aarla
d026 if the changes on sisi hits tranq , you can use 2xt2 rigs and 1xt1 rig.

cause what have missed most ppl attention is they have changed calibation on ships , CNR gotten from 350 to 400 , i think rest of the ships have too.


then the cnr gets even better. 2 x TII and 1 x TI is still better than 2 x TII rigs:)



Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.11.15 22:39:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: d026
then the cnr gets even better. 2 x TII and 1 x TI is still better than 2 x TII rigs:)

Depends on what rigs Twisted Evil
A Golem for instance has a "built-in" CCC-II rig equivalent (when compared to Raven or CNR) for cap recharge reasons.

d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:15:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: d026
then the cnr gets even better. 2 x TII and 1 x TI is still better than 2 x TII rigs:)

Depends on what rigs Twisted Evil
A Golem for instance has a "built-in" CCC-II rig equivalent (when compared to Raven or CNR) for cap recharge reasons.


i had missile velocity rigs in mind...


Delenda Cartago
Gemini Sun
Violent-Tendencies
Posted - 2007.11.16 04:44:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: Viscount Stoko

Q. If you're AFK how do you get your missiles to re-activate once they've reloaded??



Put paperweight on f1 to f7 buttons.

Works with MWD on 'afk tavel' setups so I don't see why it should not work with missiles, altho CCP does not like 'paperweight' tackiks (it was under discussion a while ago when someone asked for the best 'afk travel' setup and some dev told us it's borderline exploit and they don't like it, but that they can't do anything against it atm).
Wink


Thank you so much for that! Surprised

You know, this "no skill queue, we want people to log in", this "no warp to 0 when in autopilot" is so lame... CCP should know better that people will play their game because they LIKE it and not because they have to do DUMB things.

Unfortunately they only change those kinds of "features" when it gets on their way, like "warp to 0" that was introduced only after the mass bookmark copying started to kill server performance. Now we have to find a way to make every annoying thing in the game to do that too...

I still have to plan my skills to finish when I'm awake (and pray that the server is not down at the time) but at least I won't have to keep pressing that **** F1 button while traveling and reading a book...

Also, hihg sec pirates will thank for their targets reaching destination sooner and being afk longer to be killed YARRRR!!

Zakgram
POW ZAP THWAPP
Posted - 2007.11.16 13:46:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: iudex

It's not 100% AFK ofc. You have to klick on acceleration gates, and around every 3 minutes (depends on skills/launchers/fittings) hit F1-F7. This takes 1-2 seconds, compared to someone who has to target every singel ship, activate launchers on evry ship etc. i called this afk missionrunning as you can do other things than actually looking at the screen or klicking around.


Hmmm... as some who actively flys a Gist CNR atm I'd be interested to hear about setups that allowed for semi-afk level 4s :-)

d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.11.16 14:24:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Zakgram
Originally by: iudex

It's not 100% AFK ofc. You have to klick on acceleration gates, and around every 3 minutes (depends on skills/launchers/fittings) hit F1-F7. This takes 1-2 seconds, compared to someone who has to target every singel ship, activate launchers on evry ship etc. i called this afk missionrunning as you can do other things than actually looking at the screen or klicking around.


Hmmm... as some who actively flys a Gist CNR atm I'd be interested to hear about setups that allowed for semi-afk level 4s :-)


7 x cruise w/fof

1-2 x cap recharger (depending on your cap skills)
2-3 x hardeners
1 x b-type booster
1 x good boost amp

3 x bcu
2 x pdu

3 x ccc rig

permaruns the b-type booster. can permatank arround 1000-1500 gurista dps (most other faction within the same range) which is sufficient for most lvl 4's. does arround 500dps with lvl V fof missiles (no implants).




Zakgram
POW ZAP THWAPP
Posted - 2007.11.16 15:41:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: d026

1-2 x cap recharger (depending on your cap skills)
2-3 x hardeners
1 x b-type booster
1 x good boost amp
2 x pdu



For the b-type do you mean an XL? My perma-active setup uses a large b-type... I'll have to run the numbers though ETF I guess.

Thanks :)


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