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Lucre
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2007.11.13 12:30:00 - [1]
 

[QUOTE]
I would also like to thank everyone who added to my bounty over the last year and a half, bringing it up to a grand total 256 mill. Today I clone jumped into an empty clone and had a buddy pod kill me for the bounty. Thanks.
[/QUOTE]

Not intended as a comment on the above player, but surely a system where the above can (and does) happen is seriously broken? But what can be done?

How about ... if a bounty has been placed on a character, then that sum is added to his clone activation costs if pod-killed? Or if he doesn't have the isk then it would instead default to a lower quality clone with consequent skill point losses. (Or perhaps allow the player a chance to transfer or beg isk before the reanimation occurs.)

This change might make people take having a large bounty put on them a bit more seriously - and since there could now by definition be no profit in having yourself podded, it should make putting such bounties on people a much more worthwhile and satisfying activity.

Corporati Capitalis
Tollan Technologies
Posted - 2007.11.13 13:07:00 - [2]
 

That's actually an interesting idea. But there will still be people who pod themselves just so nobody gets their bounties.

So how about making their clone cost 150% of the bounty value, so that they'll have to actually lose money if they want to prevent someone else claiming the bounty?

Also make the next clone cost that much, instead of the current one - this way, when they get an alt/friend to pod them, they still wake up in a 900k clone as usual, but to upgrade it they would have to pay (Cost of new clone)+(Bounty X 1,5).

Essack Leadae
Caldari
Posted - 2007.11.13 13:19:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Essack Leadae on 13/11/2007 14:05:39
Quote:
it should make putting such bounties on people a much more worthwhile and satisfying activity.


It will kill piracy since I doubt that "evil" players will appreciate a loss of skillpoints because they don't have the money to pay Bounty Penalty + Clone Update if they are not killed by one of their comrades.

This will also motivate victims to place better bounties only to be sure that their killer will be totally at bankrupt at any time.

Situation inverted, but not corrected.

Hopeless EQUILIBRIUM
Caldari
W33D Corp.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.13 18:05:00 - [4]
 

And also if a pod kills himself with an alt for the bounty he should send my a sixpack :D

Wu Jiun
State War Academy
Posted - 2007.11.13 18:47:00 - [5]
 

Really the ideas some people come up are disturbing. If something like this is posted in C&P i am not surprised. But here? Not a good place for flamebaits imo.

And i really cannot see how the idea that people lose their sp for playing the game (think about that!) would benefit anyone. So this must be a flamebait.

Also what sense does it make that the player pays his own bounty? Thats not how bounties work. I want somebody killed - i'll pay the bounty. Thats how it works.

Refazed
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2007.11.13 19:25:00 - [6]
 

Whats to stop some rich idiot from putting a 10Bln bounty on the head of his favorite pirate?

Piracy is part of the game. Bounties may need to be re-worked, but screwing pirates isn't the solution.


Ulstan
Posted - 2007.11.13 19:38:00 - [7]
 

Obviously a system that allows pirates to collect their own bounties is horribly broken and needs reworking.

Therefore, the bounty mechanics need to sufficiently harm a pirate enough that he doesn't *want* to die and collect the bounty.

It will never be enough to simply reward the person who kills the pirate, as pirates will always simply have their friends do it and split the profits, since unlike in real life, the pirate can share in the spoils even after dying.

Instead bounties need to punish the pirate in some way. But what way?

This whole discussion illustrates why a bounty system doesn't really work in a land lacking perma death. Bounties will never be collected by enemies of the pirate, but by friends of the pirate. It's best to just do away with the whole 'bounty' system entirely and think up something different.

True, true, that elimaintes the ability to have bounty hunters roaming around, but as I said, that only works in a world where death is permanent.

Lucre
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2007.11.13 23:04:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Refazed
Whats to stop some rich idiot from putting a 10Bln bounty on the head of his favorite pirate?

Piracy is part of the game. Bounties may need to be re-worked, but screwing pirates isn't the solution.



What's to stop him doing it now? Oh yes, the pirate walks off with 10 Bn.

And this was a suggestion for reworking of the bounty system. The whole point of bounties is to get the pirate screwed. They're how the rich idiot gets even with the pirate who killed him. Maybe there needs to be some upper limit on bounties to stop the very rich from casually stomping some poor pirate that annoyed them - but then again I don't remember pirates screaming "unfair" when their mothership stomps a passing shuttle. Maybe annoying someone rich is one of the risks you take when you start ganking people. After all, hasn't the pirate's mantra always been that risk is part of the game - well, right now bounties are no risk to a pirate. And maybe, just maybe, they should be...

TomParad0x
Caldari
RogueNET
Posted - 2007.11.13 23:40:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: TomParad0x on 13/11/2007 23:44:03
Edited by: TomParad0x on 13/11/2007 23:41:15
Originally by: Lucre
Originally by: Refazed
Whats to stop some rich idiot from putting a 10Bln bounty on the head of his favorite pirate?

Piracy is part of the game. Bounties may need to be re-worked, but screwing pirates isn't the solution.



What's to stop him doing it now? Oh yes, the pirate walks off with 10 Bn.

And this was a suggestion for reworking of the bounty system. The whole point of bounties is to get the pirate screwed. They're how the rich idiot gets even with the pirate who killed him. Maybe there needs to be some upper limit on bounties to stop the very rich from casually stomping some poor pirate that annoyed them - but then again I don't remember pirates screaming "unfair" when their mothership stomps a passing shuttle. Maybe annoying someone rich is one of the risks you take when you start ganking people. After all, hasn't the pirate's mantra always been that risk is part of the game - well, right now bounties are no risk to a pirate. And maybe, just maybe, they should be...


While I agree, players collecting their own bounty is wrong, but I don't think you thought this through. In the unlikely chance you did (Which I must say, suggestion or not, is rather disturbing...), you were wrong.

This opens up a whole new level of griefing potential. Not only will pirates be screwed out of skill-points, but people who have money could start placing bounties on people they just don't like, or random people for the hell of doing it.

However, you can't really stop this from happening Short of doing your idea, which is completely out of the question imo. I would rather have them getting the bounty than a bunch of rich people putting bounties on random players that are unreasonably high.

Limiting how much you can put on some one is pointless too, the limit will have be too low, bounty hunting will die as a profession (What there is of it anyway) due to people not being interested because of bounty limits.

I mean, no offense to you, but all I see in your idea is the potential to turn bounties into nothing more than griefing tools. Plus, I agree, bounties are meant to screw you to a degree, but to achieve that they need to make bounty hunting a better profession. Taking away their skill points is not the answer.

Kal Shakai
Appetite 4 Destruction
Posted - 2007.11.14 00:04:00 - [10]
 

If everyone can agree that there is no way to implement a system to prevent someone from collecting a bounty on themselves why not design a reward system for those who keep their bounties for long periods of time (besides the pride some get for being famously wanted pirates)?

Let's start approaching this problem from a new angle.

Miz Cenuij
Caldari
Posted - 2007.11.14 00:09:00 - [11]
 

Damn thats real bad.

Who would do that?

LOL

Verite Rendition
Caldari
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2007.11.14 00:58:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: TomParad0x
Edited by: TomParad0x on 13/11/2007 23:44:03
While I agree, players collecting their own bounty is wrong, but I don't think you thought this through. In the unlikely chance you did (Which I must say, suggestion or not, is rather disturbing...), you were wrong.

This opens up a whole new level of griefing potential. Not only will pirates be screwed out of skill-points, but people who have money could start placing bounties on people they just don't like, or random people for the hell of doing it.
It's not as if anyone can have a bounty placed on their heads. They have to have a negative enough sec status in the first place, which only a handful of people even have. Basically you can't be bountied unless you're a bad person, so it's hard to say this would be griefing.

Cornette
Gallente
Solar Revenue Service
TAXU
Posted - 2007.11.14 01:02:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Lucre

And this was a suggestion for reworking of the bounty system. The whole point of bounties is to get the pirate screwed. They're how the rich idiot gets even with the pirate who killed him. Maybe there needs to be some upper limit on bounties to stop the very rich from casually stomping some poor pirate that annoyed them - but then again I don't remember pirates screaming "unfair" when their mothership stomps a passing shuttle. Maybe annoying someone rich is one of the risks you take when you start ganking people. After all, hasn't the pirate's mantra always been that risk is part of the game - well, right now bounties are no risk to a pirate. And maybe, just maybe, they should be...


No, this is simply a bad idea. Breaking piracy as a proffesion just because you and other people who play eve on easy mode don't like piracy is not fixing one wrong by creating another.

Pirating with motherships in lowsec is broken but it will be fixed with the new hacdictors in the next expansion. It is however one extreme way of using motherships in a riskfree way that should never had happened in the first place.

What is really broken is BOUNTY HUNTING as a profession. Bounties should be a way to reward people who hunt pirates. I have thought about this problem a lot, but I have not any good ideas of how to fix it. If anyone have any "sensible" ideas then please feel free to air them.


//Cornette

TomParad0x
Caldari
RogueNET
Posted - 2007.11.14 01:13:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: TomParad0x on 14/11/2007 01:14:11
Originally by: Verite Rendition
Originally by: TomParad0x
Edited by: TomParad0x on 13/11/2007 23:44:03
While I agree, players collecting their own bounty is wrong, but I don't think you thought this through. In the unlikely chance you did (Which I must say, suggestion or not, is rather disturbing...), you were wrong.

This opens up a whole new level of griefing potential. Not only will pirates be screwed out of skill-points, but people who have money could start placing bounties on people they just don't like, or random people for the hell of doing it.
It's not as if anyone can have a bounty placed on their heads. They have to have a negative enough sec status in the first place, which only a handful of people even have. Basically you can't be bountied unless you're a bad person, so it's hard to say this would be griefing.


Actually, while that may be true (And I will admit I forgot that part...), there are people who have - security status who arent pirates (Such as the pirate hunters do). And it still can be categorized as griefing. The rich players can just pick out random people they can place bounties on, or one player and cause them to lose a lot of SP - which IMO is and/or would be wrong.

Just because they have lower sec status (And are a pirate, or pirate hunter) dosnt mean they should have to put up with losing SP because some guy who makes tons of isk dosnt like him / dosnt like the fact he got killed by him.

edit: Also, people would stop pirating all together, and the people who have neg sec status would get screwed because out of nowhere they lose SP from their bounty. IMO, on top of what I have said, I think its a bit late in the game to implement this.

Hard Rail
Posted - 2007.11.14 01:20:00 - [15]
 

You tell me whats wrong with this purposed change... in Emp space if some rich bill isker dropped a bounty on someones head, good luck collecting it without getting wiped by CONCORD. In 0.0, who gives 2 cents? 0.0 is full of risk, thats the point of 0.0. Pirate bounty screws the economy and the pirate system. SP penalties arn't a bad idea.

Gordon Red
Posted - 2007.11.14 01:42:00 - [16]
 

The bounty should hurt the pirate in some way and the option the OP showed is not that bad. Never than less the amount that can be placed in RETURN of your ship loss on the head of the pirate should be capped.
"To get even with the pirate" is the point here. => he shot your ship => the maximal sum you can put for that action on the pirates head is equal the (meridian price in Jita) from your ship+mods+cargo (I know some items aren't to get over the regular market).

CaptainGordon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.11.14 02:39:00 - [17]
 

In any case, a pirate should never be able to collect his own bounty using an alt or whatever. Thats just silly.

Ulstan
Posted - 2007.11.14 02:45:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Ulstan on 14/11/2007 02:47:05
Bounties exist to hurt criminals. That's their entire reason for existence. It is completely intended for rich bastards to be able to put out a large bounty on criminals and screw them over - that's the point. If a bounty isn't causing the target to be screwed over, it's not a bounty.

Stop saying bounties will be placed on random people, as you have to have a sufficiently negative security status to have bounties placed on you.

Now, unlike real life, in EVE, when you die, it's not permanent. Therefore, bounties are completely meaningless. Whenever you accrue a sizeable bounty, you get a friend to kill you and split the reward. Problem solved. No more bounty. Bounty hunting is already dead as a profession and will be dead as a profession as long as pirates can come out ahead by letting a friend kill them.

The only way to make this happen is to cause a bounty to directly harm a pirate. Right now, it does not. Having your bounty collected rewards people who kill the pirate, but doesn't harm the pirate at all. In the real world, having your bounty collected means you are dead. Therefore, there needs to be a stiff financial loss to the pirate in some measure proportional to the bounty placed on him when he dies. You could make the clone cost more - but then what happens when he dies and doesn't have the ISK to pay for it? Loses a ton of skillpoints? That seems unfair. We're not trying to eliminate pirates, just make bounties have teeth.

A better idea might be to add it to their next insurance cost. At the worst, this would mean pirates would sail around in uninsured ships, which they mostly do anyway if they are flying t2. I doubt this would have much of an impact, but at least it would be an improvement over the current system, which basically just throws isk at the pirates when they get a bounty placed on them.

Quote:
The rich players can just pick out random people they can place bounties on


This too is a very easy fix. Simply say you can't place a bounty on someone unless they've attacked/destroyed your ship.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.11.14 02:50:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/11/2007 02:51:50
Edit: Screw this. Suffice it to say that you're a blasted idiot for even thinking this could be "fair" or "balanced". Freaking moron.

Goldis
Caldari
Mythos Corp
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.14 02:51:00 - [20]
 

How about this: Each time a pirate's ship is destroyed, his killer gets half the base market value of the modules and rigs destroyed with the ship, out of the total bounty on the pirates head. This could also extend to implants on a pod kill, or even the differecne between (insurance payout - (insurance cost + ship value)).

Note that the actual paid out isk comes from the bounty itself, the formula is just a calculation that ensures that said pirate lost more isk by his ship's destruction than his killer gained.

This would harm the pirate in no other way than making him a more lucrative target to shoot at, which is the point of bounties, and is substantially harder (if at all possible) to expoit.

Katana Seiko
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.14 02:58:00 - [21]
 

I know, double posts aren't very much liked, but I think that a new idea (elaborated) are ignored if you don't write them as the first post. Well, please read and comment that one:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=636269

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.11.14 03:04:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Katana Seiko
I know, double posts aren't very much liked, but I think that a new idea (elaborated) are ignored if you don't write them as the first post. Well, please read and comment that one:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=636269


Double posting a ******ed idea because you got flamed to hell and back for it isn't exactly great either.


TomParad0x
Caldari
RogueNET
Posted - 2007.11.14 04:56:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
Edited by: Ulstan on 14/11/2007 02:47:05
Bounties exist to hurt criminals. That's their entire reason for existence. It is completely intended for rich bastards to be able to put out a large bounty on criminals and screw them over - that's the point. If a bounty isn't causing the target to be screwed over, it's not a bounty.

Stop saying bounties will be placed on random people, as you have to have a sufficiently negative security status to have bounties placed on you.

Now, unlike real life, in EVE, when you die, it's not permanent. Therefore, bounties are completely meaningless. Whenever you accrue a sizeable bounty, you get a friend to kill you and split the reward. Problem solved. No more bounty. Bounty hunting is already dead as a profession and will be dead as a profession as long as pirates can come out ahead by letting a friend kill them.

The only way to make this happen is to cause a bounty to directly harm a pirate. Right now, it does not. Having your bounty collected rewards people who kill the pirate, but doesn't harm the pirate at all. In the real world, having your bounty collected means you are dead. Therefore, there needs to be a stiff financial loss to the pirate in some measure proportional to the bounty placed on him when he dies. You could make the clone cost more - but then what happens when he dies and doesn't have the ISK to pay for it? Loses a ton of skillpoints? That seems unfair. We're not trying to eliminate pirates, just make bounties have teeth.

A better idea might be to add it to their next insurance cost. At the worst, this would mean pirates would sail around in uninsured ships, which they mostly do anyway if they are flying t2. I doubt this would have much of an impact, but at least it would be an improvement over the current system, which basically just throws isk at the pirates when they get a bounty placed on them.

Quote:
The rich players can just pick out random people they can place bounties on


This too is a very easy fix. Simply say you can't place a bounty on someone unless they've attacked/destroyed your ship.


I agree with your post, loss of skillpoints would be unfair. There has to be some other method to make it undesireable to die with a bounty, such as your insurance one (But I don't think that would go very far).

Though, to defend the point about random bounty placing: It is relevent, and unless solved (Which you provided a good idea to fix, imo) could lead to random bounty placing. There are plenty of people who have the sec status to get bounties.

Cornette
Gallente
Solar Revenue Service
TAXU
Posted - 2007.11.14 05:28:00 - [24]
 

Copied and pasted from Lucre's other thread for people that won't read both:


Well Lucre from STK Scientific or whatever alt you like to use to talk about this stupid idea, how is it with your corpm8 Davlin Lotze? He was quite upset last week when he heard about the hacdictors function to scramble moms in lowsec.

Will he sell that vyvwern now that he soon risk losing it to a group of angry anti-pirates or anyone that want a mom kill to brag about?

That you Lucre think that pirates should lose sp when podded is interesting because you have pirates in your own corporation. Is that why you posted this second thread about the same thing with that alt?

And Only 5k bounty... has Davlin already podded himself to collect it or is he just taking a break from pirating? Don't get me wrong, I don't think its anything wrong with pirating it makes for a more interesting game but I think a pirate in a mom deserves a little more than only 5k bounty right?

While I wait to see what you post next I think I go and up it a bit, to let say 20k! Its not much, but if everyone give a little isk then it should be big enough soon. Then he can pod himself and begin a new career in EVE when revelation 3 is here.


//Cornette

PS. While I may act silly with this post of mine this whole thread is stupid and doesn't deserve better.

Ceden Darklo
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.11.14 06:42:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Goldis
How about this: Each time a pirate's ship is destroyed, his killer gets half the base market value of the modules and rigs destroyed with the ship, out of the total bounty on the pirates head. This could also extend to implants on a pod kill, or even the differecne between (insurance payout - (insurance cost + ship value)).

Note that the actual paid out isk comes from the bounty itself, the formula is just a calculation that ensures that said pirate lost more isk by his ship's destruction than his killer gained.

This would harm the pirate in no other way than making him a more lucrative target to shoot at, which is the point of bounties, and is substantially harder (if at all possible) to expoit.


Thats a very nice idea! Killing the pirate's ship is a very good way to indicate a kill. So killing a pod doesn't give you full bounty (say 1 billion...), it only gives you 1/2 value of any implants they are carrying. Any ship destroyed while pilot also gives half market value to the killer, split among those who contributed to their death. So its a loss for any pirate and his buddy if they try to claim the bounty and the real hunter gets paid, and can do it again and again, as long as there is some bounty value left on the pirate/mark.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.11.14 06:51:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Ceden Darklo
Originally by: Goldis
How about this: Each time a pirate's ship is destroyed, his killer gets half the base market value of the modules and rigs destroyed with the ship, out of the total bounty on the pirates head. This could also extend to implants on a pod kill, or even the differecne between (insurance payout - (insurance cost + ship value)).

Note that the actual paid out isk comes from the bounty itself, the formula is just a calculation that ensures that said pirate lost more isk by his ship's destruction than his killer gained.

This would harm the pirate in no other way than making him a more lucrative target to shoot at, which is the point of bounties, and is substantially harder (if at all possible) to expoit.


Thats a very nice idea! Killing the pirate's ship is a very good way to indicate a kill. So killing a pod doesn't give you full bounty (say 1 billion...), it only gives you 1/2 value of any implants they are carrying. Any ship destroyed while pilot also gives half market value to the killer, split among those who contributed to their death. So its a loss for any pirate and his buddy if they try to claim the bounty and the real hunter gets paid, and can do it again and again, as long as there is some bounty value left on the pirate/mark.


IMHO, bounty for a pod kill should be cost of clone (current) + 1/2 of cost of implants.

Cost of implants might be exceedingly difficult to calculate.

Liang

Tessikhet
Posted - 2007.11.14 17:44:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Tessikhet on 14/11/2007 17:47:54
Edited by: Tessikhet on 14/11/2007 17:46:53
Hi, here's the problem: Bounties are stupid to begin with.

A bounty is exactly this: A contract that is satisfied if the target gets podded. If a pirate then gets his friend to pod him and collect the bounty, then the person who paid for the bounty got 100% exactly what they paid for.

Oh, you don't think that *just anyone* should be able to collect the bounty you put out? Well then why did you use the in-game system that lets just anyone collect the bounty? Why did you not hire a specific person or corporation to kill the target?

If you don't want the pirate's friend or alt to collect the bounty, then go hire someone who is not a friend or alt of the pirate to kill the pirate. Go do you own damn legwork and stop relying on game mechanics to solve all your problems.

EDIT: HEY did you know about this real-life exploit?? If my wife has a bounty on her head and I turn her in to the police, I CAN COLLECT THE BOUNTY. But then when she gets out of jail she can spend that money we got by turning her in?? Wow, the machanics of real life are totally broken!

Katana Seiko
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.14 20:19:00 - [28]
 

Well, an other idea: Upon a player's dead his bounty is deducted from his wallet and paid to the killer. If the bounty is higher than the victim's wallet, his bounty is only reduced by the ammount of his wallet, and only that ammount is paid out to the killer.

That might be a possible solution, and it punishes the pirate as it should...

Horribad
Posted - 2007.11.14 21:01:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Horribad on 14/11/2007 21:04:48
Whomever places the bounty should have the option to place the bounty on a specific ship, clone, or both.

This could be implemented via the upcoming combat log, allowing players to place a bounty on the specific ship or specific clone which was used to kill them.

People that place a bounty should also be informed when someone collects the reward.

This allows whoever is placing the bounty to judge the value of the items they are placing the bounty on..whether it be a poly fit hac, a faction BS, a super capital (would be some interesting bounties on titans), or a high grade snake set clone.

As it stands now, the person just jump clones to an empty clone, and gets someone to kill their implant-less clone.


Instead, as it should be, things like low sec smartbombing MS might actually have staggering bounties worth pursuing.

Ilvan
Gallente
Post with your Brain
Posted - 2007.11.14 22:24:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Horribad
Edited by: Horribad on 14/11/2007 21:04:48
Whomever places the bounty should have the option to place the bounty on a specific ship, clone, or both.

This could be implemented via the upcoming combat log, allowing players to place a bounty on the specific ship or specific clone which was used to kill them.

People that place a bounty should also be informed when someone collects the reward.

This allows whoever is placing the bounty to judge the value of the items they are placing the bounty on..whether it be a poly fit hac, a faction BS, a super capital (would be some interesting bounties on titans), or a high grade snake set clone.

As it stands now, the person just jump clones to an empty clone, and gets someone to kill their implant-less clone.


Instead, as it should be, things like low sec smartbombing MS might actually have staggering bounties worth pursuing.

See, this idea is actually reasonable.


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