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Shadarle
Posted - 2007.11.28 05:27:00 - [211]
 

You can accept that you've lost 70% of your investment... or you can take his word and see if you start getting divs in a month or so. Seems like waiting is a better option for shareholders at this point.

If I was an investor I'd be shocked he is doing this... but I certainly wouldn't stop him. I'd definitely give him some more time to get things working. Especially if someone actually buys a GTC from him which proves he did it.

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2007.11.28 05:30:00 - [212]
 

Hmmm, I'm kinda appreciating the commitment too, and here's something that some people who are saying "it's a stupid waste of money" should remember.

Think of EVE like your car or your mates car. Then think about how much money they've spent on spoilers, body kits, stereos (i mean crap, a guy was in the paper the other day coz he spent a quarter of a million on his car sound system, and I'm certain his kiddies are getting christmas presents), then ask if the 40 GTCs (about $800) is really that mad? If you're still saying it's stupid, then think about any hobby, bushwalking, chess, gardening, anything, and think about the money you put into them. If you're still shaking your head, you should probably take up a hobby ;)

EVE's like a giant train set, and occasionally you want to splurge on that really nice locomotive set. CCP provides a mechanic to invest money into eve through GTCs. Whether the GTC selling system is good for the games health or not is completely off topic.

Ricdic
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.11.28 05:53:00 - [213]
 

I don't see why he would go to the effort of saying it if he wasn't following through with it. He was waiting specifically for the response from his petition as he told me in MSN. When he got the response he had his update here within an hour or so.

Either way I was advised that if the petition failed he would look towards using RL to fund his operation.

Daeva Vios
Posted - 2007.11.28 06:05:00 - [214]
 

Sort of saying what Kylar said, but I know folks who have spent hundreds of dollars IRL to fund in-game activities. None of them in this game, but several in other games.

To take it from a different perspective, look at it in terms of the time spent. For a person who makes $20 per hour after taxes, this would be 30 hours of work. Not even a full work week. It would probably take more than one week of time in-game to make back the 10b isk, and salvaging the reputation lost would take a far longer time.

Tatania Apparition
Posted - 2007.11.28 09:07:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Shadarle
Of course somehow getting the 2 back that were taken by some means is of course another avenue that might have worked.


He could always just go ahead and ask his friend for them back.Wink

Bakimi Ghevorchal
Praetoria Holdings
Posted - 2007.11.28 12:26:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: Erimisha
I *used* to be an investor in this but the OPs timing (24h after the loss), short handed rudeness ("You're not an investor, STFU!") and 'grace period' ("Just a few more days..") silence turned me off on the deal--especially when he tried to still enforce the "1000 shares ONLY" artificial limit on the only person willing to help him.


Sorry, but I cannot leave that there uncommented. It is your choice to pull out, and I fully respect that. However, I was never rude to anyone, I asked that the general public Lynch me later, to give those with a vested interest first pick (I could have said STFU it has nothing to do with that, but I didn't, and I would not converse in such a way in a forum.

Also, my timing has been explained, I needed a little while to cool down myself, and did not want to come to the table with nothing, and now clarified as to the reasons why. I was also everything but silent, and my communication was praised multiple times in this thread.

Originally by: Erimisha
Which is easier/more believable:
A. Someone takes the left over IPO money and regains the lost 9.5b through trading/selling and/or modified business plan
B. Someone, out of the "goodness of their heart" *plans* to willingly invests $600 USD to help ppl recoup an investment in EVE (40x 30d GTC through Shattered [email protected] $14.99 each)

and he's applauded for it?


Correct, a) would present a total turnaround in strategy, to something I have no idea of, and give investors no returns for a while. Sometimes good things really do happen, so why not applaud someone for an innovative idea which I don't think anyone saw coming. If I wanted to scam, I could have done so, I do want this to be a success.

Originally by: Erimisha
Maybe EVE has jaded me, but is there any proof that he has actually gotten all 40 of these GTCs? I mean I *really* like EVE, but $600 IRL money for it?


All it is, is a question of priorities, and mine lie with the shareholders. This is the proposed continuation of the IPO, and actually, what does it matter if I get them or not?? If I do, this gets back up and running, if I don't, half the people had it written off anyhows.... I currently have not got the GTC's, I will be purchasing them shortly.

Bakimi Ghevorchal
Praetoria Holdings
Posted - 2007.11.28 12:32:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: NeoTrade
I am impressed by your dedication, and it gets my "IPO CEO of the year" award :)

But I will not allow you to do this if it has any sort of impact on your RL ability to live (i.e. pay bills, issues with a wife etc etc). Please confirm you are able to comfortably afford this.

On a related note - with the new BPO's that you buy, please please ship them one at a time, and please ship them with an alt who is not in your corp etc. It's possible you could be targetted - and losing one BPO is way different to losing 5. You'll reduce the risk, both to the IPO and yourself (cause if it happens again you'll be so upset - its just not worth it).


BPOs will be independently transported, do not worry, they will be safe.

As for comfortably affording: No bills will go unpaid, I do not own....sorry....have a wife, and my car will still get tanked up. Sure, I might not get those expensive Football boots I wanted two pairs of, but that for me is comfort zone, not commitment-zone.

Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
Posted - 2007.11.28 13:14:00 - [218]
 

Purchasing GTC to cover your corporation losses sets up a bad precedence for the future of the IPO market. Even worse are CEOís using GTC to pay dividends. You should reconsider your decision and how is going to affect future ventures.



Yarden Tajj
Posted - 2007.11.28 13:25:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: Block Ukx
Purchasing GTC to cover your corporation losses sets up a bad precedence for the future of the IPO market. Even worse are CEOís using GTC to pay dividends. You should reconsider your decision and how is going to affect future ventures.



Depends how you look at it. Yes it's kinda weird to buy GTC however he wants to set right what happened. Which means a lot more then a person saying *oeps I ****ed up.. IPO Closed*.

I see this as a way to get his honor back and trying to succeed with what he planned to do even with the setback which he suffered.

Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
Posted - 2007.11.28 13:43:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Yarden Tajj
Depends how you look at it. Yes it's kinda weird to buy GTC however he wants to set right what happened. Which means a lot more then a person saying *oeps I ****ed up.. IPO Closed*.

I see this as a way to get his honor back and trying to succeed with what he planned to do even with the setback which he suffered.



He made a big mistake by moving the BPOs in a shuttle. Now he is about to make a huge mistake by purchasing GTCs.


Yarden Tajj
Posted - 2007.11.28 13:48:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Yarden Tajj
Depends how you look at it. Yes it's kinda weird to buy GTC however he wants to set right what happened. Which means a lot more then a person saying *oeps I ****ed up.. IPO Closed*.

I see this as a way to get his honor back and trying to succeed with what he planned to do even with the setback which he suffered.



He made a big mistake by moving the BPOs in a shuttle. Now he is about to make a huge mistake by purchasing GTCs.




Time will tell

Ricdic
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.11.28 13:50:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Block Ukx

He made a big mistake by moving the BPOs in a shuttle. Now he is about to make a huge mistake by purchasing GTCs.


So, EBANK made a terrible mistake spending $200-$300 USD on website hosting and the likes? Chribba made a terrible mistake with eve-files and his other projects? It's all about priorities. Eve Online is a hobby and the cheapest one I have ever had in my life.

I don't see why it's a big deal. It's not your money. Would you prefer a scam?

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2007.11.28 14:14:00 - [223]
 

What part of respecting the man's choice to fall on his own sword don't some of you get? Doesn't make a difference if you agree with his choice or not. He made it, it is an honorable one (even if extreme), and he's worthy of our respect on the issue.

'Nuff said.

Yarden Tajj
Posted - 2007.11.28 14:15:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Shar Tegral
What part of respecting the man's choice to fall on his own sword don't some of you get? Doesn't make a difference if you agree with his choice or not. He made it, it is an honorable one (even if extreme), and he's worthy of our respect on the issue.

'Nuff said.



signed

Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
Posted - 2007.11.28 14:48:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Ricdic
Originally by: Block Ukx

He made a big mistake by moving the BPOs in a shuttle. Now he is about to make a huge mistake by purchasing GTCs.


So, EBANK made a terrible mistake spending $200-$300 USD on website hosting and the likes? Chribba made a terrible mistake with eve-files and his other projects? It's all about priorities. Eve Online is a hobby and the cheapest one I have ever had in my life.

I don't see why it's a big deal. It's not your money. Would you prefer a scam?


There is big difference between spending cash to provide out of game services versus injecting ISK via cash into IPOs.



ProudGallenteCitizen
Posted - 2007.11.28 14:56:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Ricdic
Originally by: Block Ukx

He made a big mistake by moving the BPOs in a shuttle. Now he is about to make a huge mistake by purchasing GTCs.


So, EBANK made a terrible mistake spending $200-$300 USD on website hosting and the likes? Chribba made a terrible mistake with eve-files and his other projects? It's all about priorities. Eve Online is a hobby and the cheapest one I have ever had in my life.

I don't see why it's a big deal. It's not your money. Would you prefer a scam?


There is big difference between spending cash to provide out of game services versus injecting ISK via cash into IPOs.



There is a big difference between a failed business plan injecting isk and a careless mistake that has nothing to do with the business plan completely ruining the IPO. He is erasing his mistake as quickly as possible so stop being envious of his real world cash.

Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
Posted - 2007.11.28 15:09:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: ProudGallenteCitizen
There is a big difference between a failed business plan injecting isk and a careless mistake that has nothing to do with the business plan completely ruining the IPO. He is erasing his mistake as quickly as possible so stop being envious of his real world cash.


No, he canít erase his mistake but only divert attention from it. This is not about the size of his wallet. It is about the precedence he is about to make that I strongly believe is going to be very harmful to future IPOs.



northwesten
Amarr
Trinity Corporate Services
Terran United Federation
Posted - 2007.11.28 15:44:00 - [228]
 

Edited by: northwesten on 28/11/2007 15:45:59
Originally by: Ricdic
Originally by: Block Ukx

He made a big mistake by moving the BPOs in a shuttle. Now he is about to make a huge mistake by purchasing GTCs.


So, EBANK made a terrible mistake spending $200-$300 USD on website hosting and the likes? Chribba made a terrible mistake with eve-files and his other projects? It's all about priorities. Eve Online is a hobby and the cheapest one I have ever had in my life.

I don't see why it's a big deal. It's not your money. Would you prefer a scam?


Originally by: Block Ukx

There is big difference between spending cash to provide out of game services versus injecting ISK via cash into IPOs.



Ricdic I see your point! but I agree with Ukx there a difference! And also most sites offer a choice to make payments to help keep it up. Tho Just the Idea to spend 40 GTC to make a fast recover from it makes me feel uneasy by it. Ok be nice for us but I still don't like the idea because its more risky to lose it all again and in turn lose Alot is RL. yes its his money and his choice but still! ..

EVE is a hobby to me and My corp is a big hobby etc but I would never use GTC to recover losses. If i suffer a loss i work it in game like Its EVE it happens! I would peffer a scam/ or a closed IPO than IPO ran by RL.

Tho again in my other comment the remaining isk you can recover in trade etc! So its slow but you recover. That would be a real challenge Smile

but yes he made his choice but we just expressing are worries about this. Also future IPO i don't think it get effected but it just removes the risk which is sad because its a game too and thats what EVE is risk!

OP good luck what ever path you take but just ***rried about this!

Minerva Vulcan
Caldari
Ctrl Alt Elites
Posted - 2007.11.28 15:50:00 - [229]
 

I really don't think it's a precedent. I don't think anyone will ever be able to reasonably say "go buy GTCs to cover (whatever loss) to your investors!"

Whatever happened to those BPOs he lost, it was his fault, for autopiloting them around oblivious to any risk... or even just transporting such high value goods in a 9,000 ISK ship in the first place... it was his fault.

He's taking responsibility for it, and instead of making investors wait months for him to try and recover from the loss, he's giving, through a substantial cost to himself, a very-rare-in-EVE do-over.

Not something I'd do myself... largely since I wouldn't have lost something like that in the first place as I'd move them with a tanked up CovOps Recon or CovOps frigate failing that, but it is his money and his choice.

He's doing what he feels is in the best interest in those who invested in him. What you, I, or anyone else besides those who have to decide whether or not they want to keep any confidence in him after such a monumental screw up think about it is irrelevant.

Bakimi Ghevorchal
Praetoria Holdings
Posted - 2007.11.28 16:04:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: ProudGallenteCitizen
There is a big difference between a failed business plan injecting isk and a careless mistake that has nothing to do with the business plan completely ruining the IPO. He is erasing his mistake as quickly as possible so stop being envious of his real world cash.


No, he can’t erase his mistake but only divert attention from it. This is not about the size of his wallet. It is about the precedence he is about to make that I strongly believe is going to be very harmful to future IPOs.



I am not erasing it, neither am I trying to divert attention from it. I am being upfront and honest about it and trying to put things right. I am by no mean trying to brag or boast about Wallet size, I enjoy this as a game, I see it as a hobby, and I know what other hobbies (see painballing, or Karting) normally cost.

As to setting a precedent, I doubt that very much, don't think that many would be willing to do this.

Matalino
Posted - 2007.11.28 16:15:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Minerva Vulcan
I really don't think it's a precedent. I don't think anyone will ever be able to reasonably say "go buy GTCs to cover (whatever loss) to your investors!"
I agree.

The precedent that is set, and should have been set a long time ago, if it had not been set already, is that a CEO would make an effort to recover from losses caused by his own carelessness.

If DATAC lost a shipment of datacores due to my carelessness, then I would replace it from my personal in-game assets. I would not purchase GTC's to do so, as I simply do not have the cash. But I would still do my best to cover such a loss.

It all comes down to responsiblity for the operation of your venture. I am most impressed with Bakimi's commitment. He has set a good precedent for CEO's to own up to their mistakes, but do not feel that he has set a precedent that future CEO's need to spend cash on GTC's to cover those mistakes.

Bitter Brain
BOMEN production
Posted - 2007.11.28 18:06:00 - [232]
 

I wish you the very best Bakimi.

Put this incident behind you and start enjoying the RL hours you spend playing. I can fully understand that this is the only feasible way if you still want to play EVE. I value your morale and I will definately keep my shares.

Now, lets all turn back time one week and focus on the business....

Bitter Brain


Lannier Na'Toth
VentureCorp
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.11.28 23:04:00 - [233]
 

First off, I would like to commend you on your extreme commitment to this IPO. I didnít post anything after the incident as you requested time and I was happy to give you that as I understand the deep feelings you were probably experiencing. I hate to see you spend RL cash on this but as you said this is something important to you and you feel you will have a lot of fun running. Again I commend your dedication.

Now it appears that the majority of complainers here are not in fact share holders so why it matters to them I donít know. This will not affect other IPOís because quite simply I donít see anyone else that would be willing to go above and beyond like this.

My shares will stay in my wallet and Iím proud to have them.

Pang Grohl
Posted - 2007.11.29 00:30:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Ricdic
Originally by: Block Ukx

He made a big mistake by moving the BPOs in a shuttle. Now he is about to make a huge mistake by purchasing GTCs.


So, EBANK made a terrible mistake spending $200-$300 USD on website hosting and the likes? Chribba made a terrible mistake with eve-files and his other projects? It's all about priorities. Eve Online is a hobby and the cheapest one I have ever had in my life.

I don't see why it's a big deal. It's not your money. Would you prefer a scam?


There is big difference between spending cash to provide out of game services versus injecting ISK via cash into IPOs.





The ISK needed to effect a recovery has to come from somewhere. Whether it's massive farming or cash to ISK conversion is irrelevant outside of the ethics surrounding the method. If you object to cash to ISK conversion, that's fine. If you're an investor, express your displeasure by divesting. If you believe that there's an impact beyond that of cash to ISK conversion, state what you believe the impact is, and we can all have a discussion about that.

Caldari Alt
Posted - 2007.11.29 04:08:00 - [235]
 

I'm not a shareholder, so I suppose it's a bit unfair of me to presume a lot of concern about this. I feel compelled to speak up though because I find this whole situation really strange; I don't understand why any investors would trust Bakimi at this point to conduct his business in a reasonable way. Points being:

- The "mistake" he made appears to be almost bizarrely stupid. Why would anyone move BPOs like that in a shuttle, and then, why would you do it AFK? How could you do such a thing if you are more than a week old?

- He hasn't said a word to explain the circumstances of it; he keeps dropping these little implicit hints that maybe there was something going on we don't all know about, but he does admit that the loss was a terrible mistake on his part, and declines to explain himself further.

Given that he hasn't presented any reasonable explanation (or, for that matter, any explanation at all) of what on God's green earth was going through his head doing that, why would people expect him not to be similarly boneheaded in other aspects of his business?

I mean, to me, this doesn't seem like a normal error. It's not like he typed an extra digit in his order in the market, or he miscalculated some profit margin. He decided to transport billions of ISK in other people's money while apparently AFK in a shuttle. I don't understand how anyone who is a competent player could ever do that unless they were drunk or as high as the clouds. Perhaps he could explain, but he hasn't tried.

Ricdic
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.11.29 04:37:00 - [236]
 

He made a mistake and he paid for it, literally. Due to the efforts he has taken to resolve the issue I am willing to give him another chance to prove himself albeit under much stricter guidelines than the first (me handling transportation of the bpo's etc, and my towers being utilised instead).

Daeva Vios
Posted - 2007.11.29 04:47:00 - [237]
 

With these steps implemented, I see no reason why the IPO would not be successful.

Philosophical arguments about the morality of selling GTCs for ISK aside, this is a sound move. I believe if anyone wishes to start a new topic about selling GTCs for ISK, they should do so.

Aside from this...has anyone stopped to think that Bakimi could have bought the GTCs in the first place, to fund the whole thing? He wouldn't have needed to come here for the isk, and the fact that he has done so means, to me, that this IPO is something else.

What I mean is that the whole exercise is a practice in building reputation. I for one would truly like to encourage that. Despite taking a hit, he can now build his reputation with Ricdic's backing and his own money behind it. The market needs dedicated individuals in order to grow and become something bigger than it is. It seems to me that Bakimi's pretty dedicated.

Astorothe
Aperture Science Industries
Posted - 2007.11.29 05:02:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Daeva Vios
Aside from this...has anyone stopped to think that Bakimi could have bought the GTCs in the first place, to fund the whole thing? He wouldn't have needed to come here for the isk, and the fact that he has done so means, to me, that this IPO is something else.

What I mean is that the whole exercise is a practice in building reputation. I for one would truly like to encourage that. Despite taking a hit, he can now build his reputation with Ricdic's backing and his own money behind it. The market needs dedicated individuals in order to grow and become something bigger than it is. It seems to me that Bakimi's pretty dedicated.


Good point raised there. He could have scammed the ISK, started a new character, and THEN bought the GTCs and gone into the scheme for himself.

Shadarle
Posted - 2007.11.29 05:04:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Caldari Alt
I don't understand why any investors would trust Bakimi at this point to conduct his business in a reasonable way.


Go away alt, if you want anyone to give you a second thought post with a main.

Zhecao Vai
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.11.29 05:46:00 - [240]
 

Edited by: Zhecao Vai on 29/11/2007 05:49:23
Originally by: Shadarle
Go away alt, if you want anyone to give you a second thought post with a main.

That seems a bit unfair. What about it made it less credible when posted by an alt?

For my part, I don't agree. Any issues I would have with his shuttle problem would be fully made up for by his dedication in resolving it, to the tune of a lot of money. I don't think all business owners in EVE would be so willing to pursue success in the face of extreme pessimism, which buys a whole lot of faith from me.


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