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Bakimi Ghevorchal
Praetoria Holdings
Posted - 2007.11.25 17:56:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Treelox
Just dont let that time of meditation extend to long or the pitchforks will be sharpened and the torches handed out. That is not a threat, just an observation based on previous events in this forum.


I do not want to come back without a few options, I am not a person who presents a problem without solutions.

To your observation, I would not deserve any different, but give me a day or two to get my head around things.

Na'hkin Oaks
Malevolent Emo Herders
Posted - 2007.11.25 17:56:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Ishina Fel
*begins to sharpen a pitchfork or three either way* Confused





Ramblin Man
Empyreum
Posted - 2007.11.25 18:04:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Ramblin Man on 25/11/2007 18:06:36

I am stuck between my disgust for your overwhelming stupidity and my admiration for your fortitude and perseverance in difficult times. Neutral

Edit: But... there's no sense crying over spilt milk when it's running into the carpet. Here's hoping you come up with something.
(Still though, christ that was dumb)

ProudGallenteCitizen
Posted - 2007.11.25 18:07:00 - [124]
 

Don't hesitate to ask for help.

Bakimi Ghevorchal
Praetoria Holdings
Posted - 2007.11.25 18:20:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Bakimi Ghevorchal on 25/11/2007 18:25:30
Originally by: Ramblin Man

I am stuck between my disgust for your overwhelming stupidity and my admiration for your fortitude and perseverance in difficult times. Neutral

Edit: But... there's no sense crying over spilt milk when it's running into the carpet. Here's hoping you come up with something.
(Still though, christ that was dumb)


Thank you for your disgust, if there are ideas, I am willing to listen, pm me or convo me.

However, you are also not a shareholder. They are welcome to take whatever they like out on me, the general public can wait for a day or two, this is chaos enough already.

Ramblin Man
Empyreum
Posted - 2007.11.25 18:27:00 - [126]
 

Fair enough. You aren't answerable to me. Smile

Shadarle
Posted - 2007.11.25 18:27:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Bakimi Ghevorchal
Originally by: Ramblin Man

I am stuck between my disgust for your overwhelming stupidity and my admiration for your fortitude and perseverance in difficult times. Neutral

Edit: But... there's no sense crying over spilt milk when it's running into the carpet. Here's hoping you come up with something.
(Still though, christ that was dumb)


Thank you for your disgust, I asked for ideas, I see none, and you are also not a shareholder, they are welcome to take whatever they like out on me, the general public can wait for a day or two, this is chaos enough already.


Interesting tact to take, hostility may not be the best route Bakimi. Though feel free to tell me off like you did to Ramblin.

It's not chaos. You lost 5 BPO's and let someone else be the one to inform shareholders of it. Deal with the situation. No one else can give you ideas without knowing what assets you still do/do not have. Lay out the facts if you want ideas. Either way, you either have to decide to continue with whatever BPO's you still have (if you still have any) or you can decide to liquidate what you still have and pay back at least a tiny bit of investor money. Heck, I suppose you could try to raise more capital. Maybe if you promise to fly non-shuttles non-afk you would have a chance to get it.

Ramblin Man
Empyreum
Posted - 2007.11.25 18:32:00 - [128]
 

The guy's had a difficult time. I didn't take it as unreasonable hostility given the content of my post -- so no need to characterize it as "he's going crazy on Ramblin."

He's taking it a lot better than I would, and I'm interested to see what he pulls out of this.

Bakimi Ghevorchal
Praetoria Holdings
Posted - 2007.11.25 18:36:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Shadarle

Interesting tact to take, hostility may not be the best route Bakimi. Though feel free to tell me off like you did to Ramblin.


Fine, I felt what I wrote was a little harsh and edited it accordingly, he has replied. You are also not a shareholder, so in essence all I am doing now is wasting time answering to you, but hey, your ego, right?

Originally by: Shadarle
It's not chaos. You lost 5 BPO's and let someone else be the one to inform shareholders of it. Deal with the situation.


I would call that situation chaotic at best, I am trying to come up with ideas, unfortunately this takes time. Also, the person informing did so rather suddenly after the actual event, sooner than I could actually get out of eve to post anything, read into that whatever you like, they were more than just "in local".


Originally by: Shadarle
No one else can give you ideas without knowing what assets you still do/do not have. Lay out the facts if you want ideas.


Good, then also, if I am the one coming up with ideas, please wait with criticism for a couple of days, THANK YOU.

Originally by: Shadarle
Maybe if you promise to fly non-shuttles non-afk you would have a chance to get it.


I asked a few posts ago to please leave all speculation for now, and that is all the above is.

Shadarle
Posted - 2007.11.25 18:44:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Bakimi Ghevorchal
Originally by: Shadarle

Interesting tact to take, hostility may not be the best route Bakimi. Though feel free to tell me off like you did to Ramblin.


Fine, I felt what I wrote was a little harsh and edited it accordingly, he has replied. You are also not a shareholder, so in essence all I am doing now is wasting time answering to you, but hey, your ego, right?

Originally by: Shadarle
It's not chaos. You lost 5 BPO's and let someone else be the one to inform shareholders of it. Deal with the situation.


I would call that situation chaotic at best, I am trying to come up with ideas, unfortunately this takes time. Also, the person informing did so rather suddenly after the actual event, sooner than I could actually get out of eve to post anything, read into that whatever you like, they were more than just "in local".


Originally by: Shadarle
No one else can give you ideas without knowing what assets you still do/do not have. Lay out the facts if you want ideas.


Good, then also, if I am the one coming up with ideas, please wait with criticism for a couple of days, THANK YOU.

Originally by: Shadarle
Maybe if you promise to fly non-shuttles non-afk you would have a chance to get it.


I asked a few posts ago to please leave all speculation for now, and that is all the above is.



You say you wanted ideas, I gave 3 of them. You ignore that and tell me to shove off. If you don't want people to give ideas, don't ask for them. Don't attack others for not giving them when you refuse to give the required info for giving them.

If you don't want people to assume things then provide the facts. Until you give your side there is only one side to see.

Ramblin Man
Empyreum
Posted - 2007.11.25 18:46:00 - [131]
 

FACT: Freighter BPOs were lost.
FACT: Contingency plans are being evaluated.

*shrugs* Anything else is forum drama.

Bakimi Ghevorchal
Praetoria Holdings
Posted - 2007.11.25 18:50:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Shadarle
You say you wanted ideas, I gave 3 of them.


Please post all 3 as a list, and no, I do not count "Deal with the Situation" as an idea, as it does not help aforementioned situation.

Originally by: Shadarle
You ignore that and tell me to shove off. If you don't want people to give ideas, don't ask for them.


I did not ignore that, I didn't see any, I saw pre-reqs, nothing more. Also, please copy in where I told you to shove off, I asked you to be patient and wait, due to you not being a shareholder.

Originally by: Shadarle
If you don't want people to assume things then provide the facts. Until you give your side there is only one side to see.


All in due time, the facts will be provided. I have asked for a little time, shareholders can lynch me, the general public doesn't have that right.

Amandrace
Minmatar
DSC inc
Posted - 2007.11.25 18:56:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Amandrace on 25/11/2007 18:57:16
Originally by: Ishina Fel
*begins to sharpen a pitchfork or three either way* Confused


really hope that's not 89 mil i'll never see again; this was my first time investing, and 89m is alot of work for me to scramble together as a miner. is it irreplaceable, hardly. would it **** me off though, you can be sure.

edit: numbers -_-

Shadarle
Posted - 2007.11.25 19:02:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Shadarle on 25/11/2007 19:02:12
Originally by: Bakimi Ghevorchal
Please post all 3 as a list, and no, I do not count "Deal with the Situation" as an idea, as it does not help aforementioned situation.


Seriously? You couldn't see the 3 without me listing them?


Quote:

It's not chaos. You lost 5 BPO's and let someone else be the one to inform shareholders of it. Deal with the situation. No one else can give you ideas without knowing what assets you still do/do not have. Lay out the facts if you want ideas. Either way, you either have to decide to continue with whatever BPO's you still have (if you still have any) or you can decide to liquidate what you still have and pay back at least a tiny bit of investor money. Heck, I suppose you could try to raise more capital. Maybe if you promise to fly non-shuttles non-afk you would have a chance to get it.


But just to make sure you can see all three I'll also put them in list form as well.

1. continue with whatever BPO's you still have (if you still have any)
2. you can decide to liquidate what you still have and pay back at least a tiny bit of investor money
3. you could try to raise more capital

Ricdic
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.11.25 19:15:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Shadarle

1. continue with whatever BPO's you still have (if you still have any)

Based on what I remember of remaining assets, there would be a POS and a few advanced labs left, all bpo's would have popped.

Quote:
2. you can decide to liquidate what you still have and pay back at least a tiny bit of investor money

This might be our option. Looking at about 8-10% of our investment back.

Quote:
3. you could try to raise more capital


Dunno, he had a hard time raising the first batch, and after something like this occuring I don't like his chances of getting more isk. Plus his original business plan would basically be pushing it to meet a 5-7 percent margin. If we double the IPO, then you have to meet basically double the repayment which isn't possible on these freightor bpo's.


I really don't see a whole lot of options. You can spend the next year or however long it takes working back people's money, that would work. Dunno but it's a really bad spot to be in at this point.

I would chill a bit on the defensive side, Shadarle had some good points in there and as much as I don't like to say it, those shuttle remarks will be coming for weeks to come if not months. But as Rambling Man said above, props to you for coming back and trying to figure out a way to resolve the issue, it wasn't really expected but is great to see.

Shadarle
Posted - 2007.11.25 19:32:00 - [136]
 

I have 100% the same beliefs as you on those 3 points Ricdic. But I was just trying to lay out what I felt were the options to help Bakimi as he is obviously (and understandably) a bit frazzled by this.

If someone has more options that would work, put them forward, but it seems those 3 are the main three options. Unfortunately I only see 2 as a real option as well. Declare it a loss, pay back what you can, apologize profusely and salvage what can be salvaged.

Bakimi Ghevorchal
Praetoria Holdings
Posted - 2007.11.25 19:42:00 - [137]
 

OK, fine, to at least answer those three points, although I really did want to collate idas instead of doing one at a time:

1) Continue with Assets

Due to the pessimistic calculation on my part, we could continue with 2 BPOs and a POS

2) Liquidate

3,728,991 is the total wallet size, means 298,240 per share, or just under 30%

3) Raise more capital

This was suggested in my Mailing list, to halve the value of shares and raise the remainng. This gives a 50% loss and would also halve the earnings per share as a result, so for original investors it would be somewhere between 2,5 and 4% per month, by my standards, unacceptable, I would rather lynch myself.



OK, this being said, I have a couple more ideas I am now trying to see the feasability. I had thought of the three above, they are the easy options.

Let's look at the facts, at the moment we have a lot of ****ed off people (including me), and yes, I WILL GIVE EACH INVESTOR THE CHANCE OF POD KILLING ME, no matter what the outcome (yes, we british never lose at least some sense of humour). So I want to get the number of ****ed off people down to a minimum, somehow.

By the way, working to pay back would require 12,5 billion, mining in a hulk at a conservative 6 mil an hour, this would come to a total of 2083 hours of mining, or 86 days nonstop (not including downtime).

Daeva Vios
Posted - 2007.11.25 19:54:00 - [138]
 

Put the three options to a vote, or poll the top 10 shareholders for their ideas and then put those ideas (plus the last two listed above) to a vote. You've got a lot of people who have put money into this, and you owe it to them to give them options.

In my opinion, this is an internal matter and should be handled as such.

Bakimi Ghevorchal
Praetoria Holdings
Posted - 2007.11.25 20:02:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Daeva Vios
Put the three options to a vote, or poll the top 10 shareholders for their ideas and then put those ideas (plus the last two listed above) to a vote. You've got a lot of people who have put money into this, and you owe it to them to give them options.

In my opinion, this is an internal matter and should be handled as such.


It WAS an internal matter, and I very much wanted to deal with it that way, unfortunately, a person who was involved int he issue decided to post an overly sarcastic posting into here. Too late to deal internally, which is very unfortunate.

May Shiko
Posted - 2007.11.25 20:02:00 - [140]
 

I don't own any shares, but there are also other options.

Regardless, it's better to fail than to scam. Yes, people will remember how this came about, but how you respond is also a possiblity.

Now everyone invested in this IPO under certain conditions, but there are quite a few ways to generate modest returns by changing your field of operations. It may very well be worthwhile to explore other options available with the resources available (2 freighter BPOs can be liquidated for a fair amount of cash, and there are many ways to make tons of money off even that little)

Just some handy suggestions, there's always trade, manufacture, alternative research. But you will have to swing it past your shareholders.

Minerva Vulcan
Caldari
Ctrl Alt Elites
Posted - 2007.11.25 20:46:00 - [141]
 

Really a beyond careless mistake. Never assume safety in EVE, no matter what the sec status of the systems. Especially when you're carrying billions of cargo in a ship I could sneeze at with an Ibis and blow up. This is a real rookie mistake, usually one only reserved for new players who've just tossed everything they've worked for over the course of 4 months into an Iteron and lazily Autopilot it to Jita. I'd expect far far more care from someone entrusted with billions of other people's ISK. I'd never ever move anything of any value in less than a Covert Ops ship, nothing would ever be able to even think of getting a scan in of you, the only thing you'd ever have to worry about is very bad timing on a high sec smartbomber and land on a gate before CONCORD got to him... unlikely... and certainly not when I wasn't glued to my screen from undock to dock.

You can say I'm not an investor and that's fine, but I will still throw this out there for anyone who's currently or thinking of running any kind of operation with anyone elses ISK, or their own, for that matter. Do not make this same unnecessary and completely avoidable mistake.

One thing that strikes me as odd, though... random person in Local not only saw what happened, but knew what was in the wreck of you shuttle, and knew enough to come here and report it to the community?

Have to wonder what the chances are of something like that happening.

Wration
Caldari
GeoTech
Posted - 2007.11.26 02:24:00 - [142]
 

As on of the top shareholders i cant say anything else that this was a thought out scam by you, atleast i didnt invest all my money in you and can manage fine without this 1 bill.

My bet is that this was planed long ago with your friend or even your main char doing the killing and selling these BPs for some good nice cash.

I wouldnt want to be in your shoes tbh as there seems to be some folks that know your home location.

Someone has to do alot of work around here and its not gonna be me for sure...

Ricdic
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.11.26 03:20:00 - [143]
 

Just wait and see what he comes up with

Erimisha
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.11.26 04:17:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Wration

Someone has to do alot of work around here and its not gonna be me for sure...


WTF is that supposed to mean?

For the record are you referring to his "home location" in game or out?

Even if this was a scam mentioning his RL home is rather disgusting (if that is what you meant)..

Wration
Caldari
GeoTech
Posted - 2007.11.26 04:28:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Erimisha
Originally by: Wration

Someone has to do alot of work around here and its not gonna be me for sure...


WTF is that supposed to mean?

For the record are you referring to his "home location" in game or out?

Even if this was a scam mentioning his RL home is rather disgusting (if that is what you meant)..


Just refering to what people have said earlier in this post about knowing hes werebouts , i would never myself do anything as this is just a game , but im sure i wouldnt want to be that guy if it turns out that he has scammed alot of people as some players take this game to seriously.

Slasher Arcana
Posted - 2007.11.26 06:56:00 - [146]
 

As a minority shareholder I would have liked that news of the matter came out fast from the CEO instead of a 3rd-party, resulting in speculation and worry from the public and shareholders.

Like all shareholders of any investment, one must be ready to accept losses when taking risks. If the first thing anyone does during times like these is to bring out the pitchforks and torches I recommend they stop entrusting their money to other people. But if this was a well-planned scam I salute the involved parties.

Moving forward, I'd like to see the following being proposed/offered:

1) A cash-out plan. If the CEO needs to use his main's wallet make it so.
2) A stick-with-it plan with a solid schedule. Concrete plans to move forward with what's left and stop wallowing over spilt milk. Look beyond what you had planned. 3bil into 12bil isn't that difficult.

Bakimi Ghevorchal
Praetoria Holdings
Posted - 2007.11.26 07:12:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Wration
As on of the top shareholders i cant say anything else that this was a thought out scam by you, atleast i didnt invest all my money in you and can manage fine without this 1 bill.

My bet is that this was planed long ago with your friend or even your main char doing the killing and selling these BPs for some good nice cash.

I wouldnt want to be in your shoes tbh as there seems to be some folks that know your home location.

Someone has to do alot of work around here and its not gonna be me for sure...


Actually, this would be about the worst thought out scam in history. Look at RHCRP as a current example, just ran away with the isk.

I got blown up and lost close to 8,5 billion, although if you are accusing me of selling the BPOs that survived, then let's make that 5 Billion destroyed.

If I wanted to scam, I would not have blown up 5 Billion of the investment, much less come here and tried to reassure people that I will come up with a solution, plus updating on the situation.

Although your confusing game and rl really does make me wonder, as the person who has posted to being a RL Friend is currently pretty ****ed off too, but hey, who cares...

Again, and I honestly do not know how many times to ask this... PLEASE JUST GIVE ME A DAY OR TWO

Ricdic
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.11.26 07:18:00 - [148]
 

Yeh we have been looking into alternative ways to resolve this situation in game. Nothing else will be mentioned on the matter, except that we have been looking at options. They may or may not come to fruition but let's let him have his 1-2 days

Astorothe
Aperture Science Industries
Posted - 2007.11.26 08:21:00 - [149]
 

Terrible news. As a shareholder in this program, I would think we could give the manager a few days to re-think his options. It's not my place to flex my e-peen or throw insults around. I have a vested interest in this and look forward to hearing more from the investment manager.


Kara Rhane
Gallente
Rhane's Research and Development Labs.
Posted - 2007.11.26 10:52:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Kara Rhane on 26/11/2007 10:52:50
As an investor in this I am a little disappointed, but not angry.
As a fellow business owner/operator, I'm sympathetic.

Had our own corp expansion nuked in a hauler going 23 jumps through empire with a shadow medium tower in the hold and something like 55 million in BPO's. All gone, that feeling sucked. Pushed back our expansion a good month.

I invested in this with the idea of making ISK, is this a set back? Yes.

Is it the end of all things and zomgwtfbbq time? No.


Your options can be expanded a bit. Funny enough I thought of doing an IPO for this EXACT same business model, but after the rash of scams/losses the last week and the 'feel' of the market I decided to keep it all internal rather then worry about all that extra stuff. It's one of the reasons I invested in you and still hope it comes out good for you.

Now with that said, lets give you some options:

Modified Liquidation - If people trust you, and you come up with a good plan to turn this around, let people that want out, out. Those that wouldn't mind 'letting it ride' can stay, you can then give those people that are willing to get out now the option of taking back 30% of their investment. (at a clear loss) Or they can take a IOU for 3 to 5 months down the road at the projected return you suggested initially. This would give you time to use the isk (without monthly payout) to quickly build funds in trading/manufacturing/other ways.

Quicktime repayment short term paper - Not sure exactly if this is the term I'm looking for but if you go into another means of making ISK (trading/manufacturing) you can selectively begin to pay off each investor in order of how quickly they want to get out. Some investors might want to get out right away, and you can give them 30% probably within a month. Some might want 2 months, where they'd get say 55%, others might want to wait 6 months and would get say 125+%. It rewards those willing to stick to it, and still gives the option to get isk to those few that want their isk back right away. They might think they can do better with this ISK, even after losing 70% of it in their own hands.

Find People willing to invest in 'junk bonds' - I'm very much not sure how this last one would be worded out, but I'll give it a go and let one of the people a little more knowledgeable flesh it out. Basically you find out if there are any investors that would like to act as a purchaser of the lowered shares at the lowered rate and maybe with a little extra isk added on to help get your funds up a bit to begin working this out. So say shares are worth 30% of value, the purchasers buy them at 40% to 50% of value. This gives you 20% extra on those that want out, to 'play' with at making isk. Read Next Part to combine this step with the next if feasible.

Request/Purchase Advice from people offering: - Your already asking for ideas from others, that's a great start. People that have said "there are plenty of ways to make ISK grow from 3 bill to 12 bill in a few short months" might be good to actively 'request' information from. There are dozens of ways to make loads of ISK in this game, some of them require tremendous amounts of ISK, some don't. Some take tremendous amounts of TIME, some don't. However if you have alot of time, and someone is willing to impart some advice (mineral market playing, moon reactions, research service, etc. etc) I believe you really can make this isk back as well as turn a very tidy profit for everyone involved in 3 to 4 months.

I believe your time, and willingness to 'work at it' will be your biggest issues. Give it 2 hours a night, and yeah, you'll have that 10th and 11th digit appear in your wallet quite quickly.

People have to make the shift from buying 75% your business plan and 25% you, to almost 90% you and 10% your business knoledge/willingness.

Hope it helps.

-Kara


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