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Posted - 2008.01.03 19:47:00 - [151]


i pre-trained for the arazu, since i never trusted the ecm chance based thing... i'm currently halfway through training gallente cruiser 5, with everything else ready to go.. Even bought myself an arazu so i just had to jump in and go.

I cannot believe the comments from ccp reguarding damps as a "sure thing"... When you look at the optimal range on them, and the effect they'l now have. You also need to remember that most people will be packing a sensor booster (the counter to a damp) because it is usefull even if you aren't being damped. ECCM on the other hand is only used for countering ECM, thus, no-one really makes the sacrifice to fit it "just incase". So you say damps are a "sure thing", when 90% of eve has the counter module fitted to their ships?

Lets look at the factors that have been changed in one single swipe -

Firstly, there are the base value changes... Which basically mean that unless we fit a full rack of damps, we have to stay in falloff range - all of a sudden damps don't feel like a sure thing.
Secondly, there is the script system, designed so that if a ship can get inside locking range, you aren't shafting their scan res too - without the other nerfs, this would have been an excellent idea. However even with scripts, riding our specialised ships, with mods specialised to do one thing, they're still weaker than pre-nerf non specialised ships...
Thirdly, the stack penalty, also would have been a good idea on its own, or even combined with the script system.

To me it seems ridiculous that CCP could nerf a module so severely in 3 different ways all in one patch, when the module only affects other ships in 2 ways to start with...

Any one of the changes would have been great on their own... but this is overkill in the strongest sense of the word. Was the guy who approved this change drunk? Couldn't you all find a way to decide which nerf to hit it with so just went with all of them?

You tried to steer us away from brute force attack and defend, and tried to encourage EW... Why go backwards?

I could go on and on... but i'l get nowhere... i guess i'l give in and finish caldari cruiser 5, then when enough people have done that you'l nerf them too... we'l just chase around, tailed by the nerfs, pretending we have a choice in this "Sandbox style environment" you call EvE

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Lukas Rox
Torchwood Archive
Posted - 2008.01.20 14:51:00 - [152]

Edited by: Lukas Rox on 20/01/2008 14:52:12

Give specialized ships more bonus - remote sensor damp as it is now is USELESS.
I won't give you numbers, I will give you an example.
Let's say we have a Falcon with 3 multispec ECMs and Let's say we have an Arazu with 3 damps. They meet a solo PVP Battleship which has a sensorbooster on (because most people do that to have better locking times). Since Force recons are meant to be espionage ships, they both choose to run. The Falcon has a chance: with 3 ECMs with 4.7 strength each it has 50% chance to ECM the attacking battleship. But what about Arazu?? Even with 3 sensor damps on, the battleship still has 50km locking range.

What's wrong with that you ask? BALANCE. There is no balance anymore. Caldari Force Recn is far superior than Gallente right now, which became useless ship for 100 million isk. Fix it CCP, Please fix it. Because this time the nerf bat hit a bit too hard. Instead of balancing the game it unbalanced it.

That's of course my own humble point of view, no one has to agree. But if things like this happen, what wil this game become in future? Caldari Online?

Frances Ducoir
Dark Syndicate.
Posted - 2008.01.20 16:15:00 - [153]

Originally by: Lukas Rox
Because this time the nerf bat hit a bit too hard.

ccp has become one with the nerf bat this time...

dont know if it has mentioned but the tracking disruptor nerf was way over the top too.

Sons of Tangra
Posted - 2008.01.20 23:09:00 - [154]

It is really Unfortunate. is it possible to get refunded all the sp I wasted on the Arazu? I know it sounds terrible and like a whine.

But Mt arazu is parked and will remain so. im working on a nanoishtar skill set now. I expect by the time i get decent at it they will nerf it.

But seriously. the arazu did Not need nerfing. as a matter of fact the only thing keeping the arazus alive were its rsd's It has Zero tanking ability its not really all that fast and you have always have cap issues. its ability to get itself untargeted was the only thing keeping it alive.

It needs a Larger bonus to its rsd's. and Please dont take a year like you did with the bombers and the hp buff.

Posted - 2008.01.21 01:42:00 - [155]

Edited by: xXxKatsujinxXx on 21/01/2008 01:43:24
just to recap on lukas' point - the balance between rook and arazu is now about as balanced as lead and feathers. As he said, the rook has 50% chance to jam a BS with 3 ECM - however its most likely that people will have a full rack of them, whereas due to the stacking penalty, that isn't an option with damps. Any more than 3 damps and you're wasting your time and your cap (and most importantly your isk, though i think the damage is already done there).
So bottom line is - if you're willing to give up your solo WTFPWN-ability (ie lose your scram and web etc) and fit all out ECM, you can pretty much guarantee safety if you happen to bump into an unfriendly bs... you even stand a slight chance against 2 maybe even 3 if you just wanna cut the lock and escape... whereas with all the EW that can effectivly be mounted on the arazu, you still don't stand a chance against 1 sensor boosted BS, letalone 2 or 3.

It seems ridiculous that a single mod (that is fitted to alot of ships as a booster, not as a defensive counter) can render this specialised EW boats 3-4 damps, with all the ships bonuses, and most likely the pilots skills in the area of damping, completely useless.

Please CCP, i can accept the fact that on non specialised ships, damps were overpowered.. but please give the arazu a purpose again.. increase the bonus...

Miss KillSome
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2008.01.21 11:09:00 - [156]


lachesis and arazu lost its means for usage..

we dont need solo pwn mobiles again, just a usable ships..

Pilots of True Potential
Posted - 2008.01.22 07:50:00 - [157]

Personally i always thought the problem wasn't so much the effects, but the range damps use, In my view dampeners should be a Long range ewar, specific to bringing the fight close, as is Blaster range. Something thats a very Gallente tactic.

The script change i think would be better if damps became effective at very long ranges. Decide on a favorable Optimal range and an effective Falloff to give it its better purpose.

My thoughts

Gallente Space Production
Posted - 2008.01.22 10:05:00 - [158]


Please make my 200mil isk ship do more than just cloak.

Posted - 2008.01.22 11:50:00 - [159]

I think damps are quiet useful but:

The Arazu has a considerable too small dronebay. 40m common have you forgotten him when you increased the drone hangars of all ships? He hasn't even enough space for a single replacement drone.

For the SDs I haven't tested them yet. THe arazu is paper thin and did you know that arazu means something like pray?

Solar Storm
Posted - 2008.01.22 18:02:00 - [160]

If you don't want anyone but caldari using ewar, then fine... but at least make the arazu decent at combat so it can at least put up a fight now that its damps are useless. Same for the lachesis.

Posted - 2008.01.23 00:22:00 - [161]

Very good point Flawliss, i completely agree.. the 30-35km optimal is a little short, increasing that even to 45-50km would be great... the arazu/lachesis could still scram from that distance and stay fairly safe.
I don't think the drone bay needs buffing though... as fun as it would be, the ship isn't about damage... it can cause some decent damage already with good gunnery/drone skills, which you should already have if you're flying such a ship...

Anyone seen or heard a reply from CCP on this yet? I heard they'd said they weren't gonna change it - they feel the damps are nicely balanced right now... :/

Gus Morgan
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2008.01.23 02:06:00 - [162]

Edited by: Gus Morgan on 23/01/2008 02:06:58
I wish CCP would listen to the players on this one, Even the gallente haters agree that the arazu and the lachesis (not to talk about the new e-war frig which was released sucky) are pretty much useless right now.

can you PLEASE fix dampener-specific ships. bring them back to what they were before!

Posted - 2008.01.24 12:41:00 - [163]

Originally by: Tzesaeia

THe arazu is paper thin and did you know that arazu means something like pray?

Actually its old style japanese, and means "not" or "there is no"... modern equivelent is arimassen... ^_^


The Scope
Posted - 2008.01.24 19:20:00 - [164]

Originally by: xXxKatsujinxXx
Originally by: Tzesaeia

THe arazu is paper thin and did you know that arazu means something like pray?

Actually its old style japanese, and means "not" or "there is no"... modern equivelent is arimassen... ^_^


Not sure where you got this but the whole Gallente line is based on "old world" mythology. Phobos and Deimos were the sons of the war god Mars. Eos was the Greek god of dawn...

And Arazu was the Babylonian god of completed construction.

Put that one in your trivia collection for later.

Even if it does mean something in Japanese I'm going to guess that they got the name from continuing the "old deities" path Gallente use for all ships.

Still a worthless ship these days though. RSD's nerfed and everybody and their dog has extended range disruption, so really the ship and the Lachesis were both hit doubly by the nerf bat.

Puk Jinn
Posted - 2008.02.01 02:45:00 - [165]


never read an un-nerf thread with so little contra
ignoring it can't be a solution ccp

give this useless Recon its right


Posted - 2008.02.01 16:07:00 - [166]

signed if I haven't already.

Gallente recons also need to be viable e-war platforms.

Not quite as good as falcon, which can't do any soloing/dps/tank of it's own, but there's still quite a bit of room for improvement.

The Scope
Posted - 2008.02.05 16:47:00 - [167]

Bump for a worthy thread where almost everybody agrees these formerly beloved ships have been cast out.

Boost patch blog is out, no love for Gallente Recons.

I guess they want them to be down and out for a good long while before making them usable again.

Habitual Euthanasia
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.02.05 16:56:00 - [168]

/Sign. Atm they suck - a blackbird with terrible skills is a lot more effective.

Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2008.02.05 21:22:00 - [169]

Edited by: Aramendel on 06/02/2008 02:12:40
Originally by: Huan CK
What it used to be:
48x1.25x1.2=72% on one module

Since this misinformation is repeated here a few times: no, it didn't.

Before trinity skills worked differently. They did not apply on the reduction of the damps but on the *remaining* amount of the stat they reduced. And reduced that one again.

A damp was -48%. So thats 52% range remaining. 52% * 0.75 * 0.75 = 29.25% remaining range or -70.75% on the damps.

Not a major difference, mind you, but still...

But now the changed system results actually in a very significant difference. With the new system a damp with max spec and shipskills and range script is -53.125%. With the old system it would be -62.875%.

What defines a damps strength is essentially how big a percentag remains after one damp. After shipbonus and spec.

Pre-trinity it was 29.25%.

Post trinity it is 46.875%
Post trinity with pre-trinity mechanics it would be 37.125%

The combined damp module nerf + changed game mechanics nerf is 37.6% less efficiency.
The damp module nerf alone is 21.2% less efficiency.

The Scope
Posted - 2008.02.06 16:11:00 - [170]

Originally by: Aramendel
Edited by: Aramendel on 06/02/2008 02:12:40
Since this misinformation is repeated here a few times: no, it didn't.

What defines a damps strength is essentially how big a percentag remains after one damp. After shipbonus and spec.

Pre-trinity it was 29.25%.

Post trinity it is 46.875%

QFT. And damps are stacking nerfed so you can't get much more than the relative effect of two of them on a target, so you can't use more. Huge difference between before and now. Used to be you could keep alive in a Recon if you didn't do much damage, now lots of ships can lock you anywhere within tackle range.

The Scope
Posted - 2008.02.07 17:13:00 - [171]

Edited by: Githtakai on 07/02/2008 17:19:01

I trained Carriers just so I could move my stuff, and was a Gallente cruiser then recon specialist for years (not FOTM). Last patch CCP nerfed everythin I could do all at once, including double nerfing Gal recons by providing their special ranged jamming to every race.

Now the boost patch is blogged and on SiSi and none of that is touched, oh well.

Account expiring soon and I think I'll let it go. Wanted to give another bump to this thread before the long goodbye. I'll watch the forums in case they decide to fix this stuff but just not worth it to play now.

Fly safe everybody. (And my stuff is already spoken for by in-game friends).

Posted - 2008.02.08 22:01:00 - [172]


Solomon XI
Hidden Souls
Posted - 2008.02.13 22:03:00 - [173]


PCG Enterprises
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2008.02.14 02:07:00 - [174]


Sorien Marutor
13. Ulanen-Regiment
Posted - 2008.02.14 22:55:00 - [175]

If you don't boost these Ships give us some NPC Buyorders please.

Puk Jinn
Posted - 2008.02.26 22:00:00 - [176]

/bumpin him to pageOne

fly safe

Nicholas DW
Posted - 2008.02.26 22:31:00 - [177]


Posted - 2008.03.11 07:34:00 - [178]


Posted - 2008.03.18 00:17:00 - [179]


Posted - 2008.03.18 00:48:00 - [180]

Jesus, can't believe i didn't see this earlier.

You cannot change the bonus from 5% to 10% because of the way that the bonuses stack now. It will bring the final strength of the bonuses to 80-90% per mod. Which is unacceptable.

There is a legitimate complaint, but it has to do with the way that the bonuses stack now.[It is now straight multiplicative instead of inverse]

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