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Huan CK
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2007.12.07 06:58:00 - [121]
 

Phased Muon used to be 48% or something. With skills and ship bonus you went to 72%.
Now it is 17% on both stats. With a scritp you get 32%. With skills and ship bonus you now get to 48% (with a script) on one stat, 0% on the other. So now, WITH skills and ship-bonus, you go to where the sensor damp used to be without anything at all. In a matter of fact, you used to be "ok" with 3 dampeners on a Lachesis//Arazu. Because of the changes made and stacking penalties, you won't get even close to where you ought to be with 5 or 6 modules.

How Recons stay alive:

Amarr: Speed and NOS. Also, space in mids for Tracking Disruptor, ECM, or other preverences + main damage from Drones. Your Drones are a sufficient damage source, while you dedicate your highs to NOS and NEUTS(extreme range thanks to ship bonus) wich kills the enemies tank, ability to tackle, or fire guns. You are quite fast and manage to outrun most ships and weapons. In addition, you can go for Tracking Disruptors. This ship can pretty much take care of itself.

Minmatar: It is a speed tanker. Minmatar are fast by nature. What makes this one so good is that a tackler can't even outrun and catch it, since its increased web range is permitting the Recon to orbit at a distance at its speed without letting the enemy close in. In addition, it has the ability to quite efficiently use Target Painters. This speeds up the time that people need to lock a target, increases missile damage on smaller ships, and enables turrets to do more wrecking shots. A target painted and webbed ship is going to die rather quick, and is at least unable to touch the Recon.

Caldari: Well, they can pretty much rely on their ECM. It easily permanently jamms 1-3 ships, depending on size and sensor strength of those ships. While its not a pwn boat, it can atleast keep itself alive pretty good and escape if need be.

You see, all those ships can manage to stay alive really well and they all have their way of staying alive.

Gallente: Recons don't have much of a tank by default and get primaried, therefore they need ways to stay alive. The Gallente Recon used to be able to use its Damps to get rid of tackle, or high damage ships and maintain their role to scramble their target from a distance. Now, what are they supposed to do? They can orbit at 35-40km, scram the enemy, and just wait for their sure death. You have no neuts to disable the hostile and run away, you have no ECM to break a lock and run away, you don't have a long-range webber to maintain a speed-bonus and run away.
If you look at the optimal range of a sensor dampener (30km + skills) and then look at its Sensor Dampeners WITH all the boni from the ship, you cannot even get out of a Battleships targeting range, especially not with a Sensor Booster, and maintain your Scramble. The Dampeners were the only thing keeping those Recons together. Now you'd have to fly well beyond your Sensor Dampeners optimals and your Scramblers range to stay out of touch, where again the Sensor Damps work in falloff, are less efficient, and therefore still don't give you safety.

It's the role of the Recon ships to be hard to touch. They are highly evasive and tactical. The Gallente Recon is not in a state to maintain that role anymore by any means.

BELLZYBUB
Minmatar
Shade.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.12.07 07:46:00 - [122]
 

\singedLaughing

BELLZYBUB
Minmatar
Shade.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.12.07 07:48:00 - [123]
 

singed? wtf is this im drinkin....anyways \signed

zoroette
Free Masons United Inc.
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2007.12.07 07:57:00 - [124]
 

/emote pulls Bellz away from the bar...

most definitely /signed

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.12.07 08:46:00 - [125]
 

Yeah. Arazu/Lachesis seriously need a damp bonus boost, now. The best they can do is drop one target ship down to 20km lock range (with no hinderance to lock speed). Compare to Rook, which can 100% lock down 2-4 ships, and... sigh.

Same goes for Curse/Pilgrim and tracking disruptors. Boost the bonus, ffs!

Tzesaeia
Posted - 2007.12.07 09:38:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Tzesaeia on 07/12/2007 09:42:28

/signed

I thought Arazu still got the same range-damp or time-damp as befor if you fit scripts but only one of them at a time.
Seeing this new facts I also feel the Recons are a bit weak now. Its just a matter of usefulness in a gang. I don't want them to be solo pvown ships but if my gang leader sends me home if i bring a arazu this reallly sucks considering i learned all those skills for recons.


CCP Your arguement that it is a 100% is false. If you fit scripts for sensor damp time and you aquire lock after your enemy he won't be affected, so if he locks 5 targets at once right in the beginning it's very likely he wont' be affected at all in the whole fight! unless you get out of range. So this reduces the chance a LOT that your sensor damps are effective at all. Besides as a recon you're beeing called primary quick. If there are severall enemy ships you are 100% dead if you don't manage to damp in what ever way at least 2 of them. If you are only able to damp 1, the others will kill you immediatly. So you need a Sensor booster to make sure you aquire lock fast what cuts of a med slot for you, you need a mwd to get away quick cause you have no chance if any enemy gets under 10km to you. The recons are cap instable so you need some modules to get cap a cap booster and another med slot is gone. And than there was this warp disrupting role for the Arazu where shell he put those? In the end you come out with one or 2 damps and with the current configuration this is not worth loosing a gunboat (the pilot better bring a t1 gunboat) with some tank or a tackler.

So summary:

- rsds(time script) are not 100% sure since the enemy isn't affected at all if he aquires lock first

- rsds(range scripts) are not 100% sure since the enemy isn't affected at all if he gets under the range of the damp. Where comes this 100% sure nonesense from? This is not the same with ecms enemies need to be out of range of ecm so it wont be effective at all and at this range enemies wont be effective at all anymore. But for the Gallente recons a short range ship with sbs is death that is 100% asure.

- you need a mwd and you want to take advantage of your high rank skill recon that gives extra warp dissruptor range so at least one wd. You need a SB to make sure locking first.
If you use a Arazu time damp is totally useless cause you will never lock first from uncloaking. You very likely need a cap booster though it can be flown without one

- You loose 3-4 med slots to other moduels than RSDs


- You don't have no tank and no gunpower the only useful thing you can do to your gang is your spec.

- You must be able to get time for your gang to kill. So much time that it doesn't matter that your gang has send you and your HAC home and has now less dps.

- I like the script idea just make this little tweak to the Recon bonus so it comes back to beeing as effective as befor the patch but only in one of the two flavours not in both at once. I thought this was why you changed the stuff at all.

- btw concerning the curse. It is a solo Vaga Omen Gallente GUN Hac PVown mobile....its just not able to fight much else.

PLS RESPOND TO THIS FACTS CCP




jarhu
Blend.
Posted - 2007.12.07 11:11:00 - [127]
 

/signed

Damned Force
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2007.12.07 12:17:00 - [128]
 

/not signed

i liked very my arazu and even my dampener curse, but was too powerfull.
Someone posted a picture where was analyzed the effectiveness of the recon ships with the new damps. and if the ship would get 50% bonus, 1 single dampener could get a locking range from 100km to 36,25km. That means that with 2 dams would be around 17km
Its extreme overpowered if a ship can make a BS size ship(and even a capital ship) useless in fight without any real risk with 100% chance.
Just to see how extreme powerful that is lets take the example u fit enough boosters to lock on max range of 250km. Just 2 daps from an arazu and your lock range is 37km....

And u have 6 med slots on a arazu. that means that u could shut down 3 BS class snipers with 1 single ship in fleet battles completely, without any chance to get a lock or somehow counter with.

I miss my power too, but if u dont too egoists than u can see that was the right move

ZentorUk
Temporal Incursion
Posted - 2007.12.07 13:36:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: ZentorUk on 07/12/2007 13:51:08
Are we geting t2 scripts?

As I have gone from -58% damp to -39.1%..

Better get lots of recons in stock as I am now going to lose them now or pick on little ships.. like frigs.


{After looking at it more.... I dont know whta the smeg is going on.. hahaha}


Hatch
Minmatar
4 Marketeers
Rura-Penthe
Posted - 2007.12.07 14:05:00 - [130]
 

Another Recon bites the dust. two out of two are now utterly useless. what fun.

ZentorUk
Temporal Incursion
Posted - 2007.12.07 14:15:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: ZentorUk on 07/12/2007 14:15:03
So with Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor1 and Targeting Rnage Dampening script.

On info;

Max Targeting range bounus -39.1% is how much the targets ship locking range now damped?

As it WAS -58% for me...

Question

Arshea
Posted - 2007.12.07 14:28:00 - [132]
 

/signed

give role ships their 10% per level!

Huan CK
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2007.12.07 14:56:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Damned Force
/not signed

i liked very my arazu and even my dampener curse, but was too powerfull.
Someone posted a picture where was analyzed the effectiveness of the recon ships with the new damps. and if the ship would get 50% bonus, 1 single dampener could get a locking range from 100km to 36,25km. That means that with 2 dams would be around 17km
Its extreme overpowered if a ship can make a BS size ship(and even a capital ship) useless in fight without any real risk with 100% chance.
Just to see how extreme powerful that is lets take the example u fit enough boosters to lock on max range of 250km. Just 2 daps from an arazu and your lock range is 37km....

And u have 6 med slots on a arazu. that means that u could shut down 3 BS class snipers with 1 single ship in fleet battles completely, without any chance to get a lock or somehow counter with.

I miss my power too, but if u dont too egoists than u can see that was the right move

Your math is off, mate.
Lets asume the skill gives you 20% bonus.
You get 25% from the ship.
100% form the script.

Muon: 17% reduction base.
17x2x1.25x1.2=51% on one module

With the suggested 50% from the ship:
17x2x1.5x1.2=61.2% on one module

What it used to be:
48x1.25x1.2=72% on one module

So, even with 10% bonus instead of 5% you damp 11% less, which is only a 85% efficiency compared to pre-patch. So, its still a nerf, even when using a script and only using one module.

Also, take into account that there are stacking penalties.

With 5% it is:

One module has a modifier of 0.388 on the hostiles targeting range.
For two modules this would be:
(0.49^2)^((1/2)^(1/4))=0.3=30% range for the hostile

With a third it goes as follows:
(0.49^3)^((1/3)^(1/4))=0.196=19.6% range of the hostile ship

With a forth it goes liek this:
(0.49^4)^((1/4)^(1/4))=0.13=13% range of the hostile ship

As you see, you need at least 4 dampeners to get out of targeting range and stay within your scramble range as soon as the battleship you're tackling has a single sensor booster, which is quite common.


With the supposed 10%

One module has a modifier of 0.388 on the hostiles targeting range.
For two modules this would be:
(0.388^2)^((1/2)^(1/4))=0.2=20% range for the hostile

With a third it goes as follows:
(0.388^3)^((1/3)^(1/4))=0.115=11.5% range of the hostile ship

As you see, you need at least 3 dampeners to get out of targeting range and stay within your scramble range as soon as the battleship you're tackling has a single sensor booster, which is quite common.

Count in that you have to stay at range, so you need a MWD, count in that you need a scram, so you can fulfill your purpose. 2 Slots gone. Consider a slot for cap. You see, you can barely manage to fulfill your role against a single target.
Also, at this state, you're not any good against a sniper with 2 sensor boosters or more, you'll be forced to fly outside your scrambler range. It's the purpose of the ship to stay out of a hostiles range and operate as intended.

Caldari got a boost, Amarr and Minmatar still work very well in their roles, whereas Amarr could use some turret disruption love, but Gallente simply fails its role now.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.12.07 15:47:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Arshea
/signed

give role ships their 10% per level!


I think someone calculated that it would need to be about +17% per level in order to be around where they were? Not sure.

But anyway, I'd be happy with just +10% per level, it might make them at least flyable in some situations. Same goes for the Amarr recons, they really need a boost to their equally pitiful tracking disruptor bonus -- TDs were weak even before this, and now... eh.

I'm not sure I want everyone to "adapt" by training Caldari Cruiser V. Once all Gallente & Amarr recon pilots switch to Rook/Falcon, I'm sure CCP will see that as a sign of ECM needing a nerf (instead of Gallente+Amarr recons needing a small boost). Sigh.

Poba
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.12.07 19:13:00 - [135]
 

I agree that the damp spec ships need more of a boost after the damp nerf. when the NOS nerf happened the amarr recons got a extra bonus i think( the neut bonus possibly? not sure dont fly amarr )so i dont think its out of line to hope for the same for the galente.

CCP, the new arazu model isnt bad(although some of the others need some love) and the new EW frig is really nice looking, i would love to fly either of them but with the damp nerf and no increase in their bonuses these ships are pretty broken. please consider modifying them to bring them in balance.

mamolian
Cruoris Seraphim
Posted - 2007.12.07 19:24:00 - [136]
 

RIP Arazu.. we had fun together.

Silpher
Jita Trade Services
Posted - 2007.12.07 21:34:00 - [137]
 

I don't know about you, but when I pay as much for a ship as a battleship, but have NO tank and not enough DPS to take anything down larger than a cruiser, I expect there to be SOMETHING to make up for it to keep me safe.

This nerf takes the only thing that keeps me alive and just chucks it away. If my arazu is fighting a BS, and we're both fit equally in a rellative kind of way, and the values of our ships are within 50m of each (including fittings), I better be able to do something to him besides scram him from a distance.


This nerf is NOT balancing to Gallente Recons. It's quite the opposite. It's crippling.

Every time you nerf something, something else will seem overpowered untill the only balance you have is ship A and Ship B.

Huan CK
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2007.12.10 23:44:00 - [138]
 

Quote:
Stuff


Dunno if you'd need 17%, but yea, 10% is still less than what it used to be, yet it would make it worth flying Gallente Recons Again

And yea, Amarr did get a bonus in return for the NOS-nerf.

Discobird
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
Posted - 2007.12.11 00:03:00 - [139]
 

Amarr didn't get a bonus in return for the nos nerf. If you're referring to their neut bonuses, those were already there before the nos nerf.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.12.11 01:00:00 - [140]
 

Guys, seriously, the answer here is Caldari Cruiser 5.

Deal with it (I did).

-Liang

Laila Eldgorn
Caldari
Certified Household Sweeping Consulting
Posted - 2007.12.17 13:21:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Silpher
I don't know about you, but when I pay as much for a ship as a battleship, but have NO tank and not enough DPS to take anything down larger than a cruiser, I expect there to be SOMETHING to make up for it to keep me safe.

This nerf takes the only thing that keeps me alive and just chucks it away. If my arazu is fighting a BS, and we're both fit equally in a rellative kind of way, and the values of our ships are within 50m of each (including fittings), I better be able to do something to him besides scram him from a distance.


This nerf is NOT balancing to Gallente Recons. It's quite the opposite. It's crippling.

Every time you nerf something, something else will seem overpowered untill the only balance you have is ship A and Ship B.


I guess if you're scramming from distance you're doing what you're supposed to do. One/two range damps will quite much shut down any sniper or ecm ship. What else you're asking for? wtfpwn ability?

If you want to completely disable lock you want to get ecm ship. Just don't expect you're going to jam anything well unless you spam your meds full of ecm.

Azur Tzesaeia
Posted - 2007.12.17 14:13:00 - [142]
 


But nobody is using Sniping BS expect for Fleet Battles.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.12.17 14:29:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Laila Eldgorn
One/two range damps will quite much shut down any sniper


Hint: take a look at the optimal range of damps, you'll probably be able to figure out why your statement is a bit silly.

Frances Ducoir
Gallente
Koshaku
Dark Syndicate.
Posted - 2007.12.17 17:28:00 - [144]
 

15% bonus on specialised ships... same to tracking d's

nothing more to say.

Athion
Posted - 2008.01.02 11:49:00 - [145]
 

/signed

ECMs permajam so easily now on a specialized caldari ship it makes gallente recons laughable. So ECMs got a huge bump and RSDs got nerfed. They'd still be useful if they had range to deal with snipers, but they don't. They'd still be useful if reducing sensor resolution did something without requiring a jamming ship to assist, but it doesn't. Considering they are useless in fleet combat (range) and now can't even noticeably affect ships at medium range, the lachesis is a sitting duck with low dps and no tank to speak of. Now I have to figure out what I'm going to do with this 100,000,000 isk pile of scrap metal I have sitting in my hangar.

Maybe RSDs needed to be hit with the nerf bat. But they didn't need to be beaten to death with it.

Kransthow
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.02 12:55:00 - [146]
 

/signed
/signed
/signed

Charlie Seriya
Gallente
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.01.02 13:27:00 - [147]
 

/signed

My Lachesis is really no less effective at solo killing due to the recent changes, I can still point, damp and kill something without it touching me, provided it can't get to a gate or move faster than I can (which was always how it was with this ship anyway.)

What really sucks is that it's much worse as a gang ship now. Caldari Recons are SO much more useful it's untrue. I appreciate that Caldari is going to have the most effective e-war recons because their ships don't get any secondary bonuses (Pointing / Damping / Cap Drain) but with the impact the Arazu and the Lachesis currently have on the battlefield, I don't see it's worth fielding them over any number of other ships.

Chencherra
Gallente
Serious Business Incorporated
Posted - 2008.01.03 11:21:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: Chencherra on 03/01/2008 11:25:16
Originally by: Damned Force
/not signed
...
Just to see how extreme powerful that is lets take the example u fit enough boosters to lock on max range of 250km. Just 2 daps from an arazu and your lock range is 37km....

And u have 6 med slots on a arazu. that means that u could shut down 3 BS class snipers with 1 single ship in fleet battles completely, without any chance to get a lock or somehow counter with.


look at optimal and falloff of RSD's. you are not gonna damp a bs thats 250km away .
there is just no effect on that range. so you not gonna kill long range snipers with them.
and an arazu still has problems with targets around 100k cause at that distance the RSD's begin to fail.

with current stats RSD's are for medium range, so you could damp down the average drake or raven ( those are often at medium ranges ) effectively with ALL your damps. every other ships would either stay shortrange, so they dont care about getting damped anyway or they stay at longrange and get not effected. btw fitting no mwd on and arazu kills it before it enters the fight. you only have 5 meds for RSD's. try to permarun them while you mwd for your life.Rolling Eyes

and we dont need the old RSD's back, we just need stronger bonus for the arazu and the lachesis.

+ stacking on damps, only the first damp does its what ? - 50% dampening or something with all skills @ 5.

Huan CK
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2008.01.03 13:04:00 - [149]
 

bump for ccp :)

Poba
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.01.03 17:36:00 - [150]
 

/signed

nerfing non speced ships doesnt need to involve nerfing everything


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