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DarkXenon
Posted - 2007.11.25 01:44:00 - [91]
 

Just had a war where I was flying a turtle tank domi with 2 ECCM, I still got jammed most of the time as did my gangmate running the same setup. This next patch is starting to take the **** with all the Caldari buffs and Gallente Nerfs.

/Op Signed

Aenigma
Gallente
Wormhole Raiders
Posted - 2007.11.25 13:32:00 - [92]
 

Edited by: Aenigma on 25/11/2007 16:19:36
Originally by: DarkXenon
This next patch is starting to take the **** with all the Caldari buffs and Gallente Nerfs.



This thread is about the bonuses to Remote Sensor Dampeners on specialized ships, i.e. the Celestis, the Lachesis and the Arazu.

Remote Sensor Dampeners, even on these specialized ships, are less than useful as they are now, and they need an increase in their specialization bonus. For a pilot with Gallente Cruiser V and Signal Supression V an RSD II with a range script gives a 0.17*(1+5*0.05)*(1+5*0.05)*(1+1)=0.53125 reduction to range.

Following is a list of the multipliers of the targeting range as it is now on SiSi:
1 RSD II: 1-0.53125 ~= 46.88%
2 RSD II: (1-0.53125)*(1-A1*0.53125)~=25.23%
3 RSD II: (1-0.53125)*(1-A1*0.53125)*(1-A2*0.53125)~=17.58%
4 RSD II: (1-0.53125)*(1-A1*0.53125)*(1-A2*0.53125)*(1-0.53125)~=14.94%

With A1=0.8691199808, A2=0.570583143511, A3=0.282955154023 the multiplier of the stacking penalty (see my stacking penalty guide).

On Tranquility the same pilot in the same ship gives a (1-0.48)*0.75*0.75=29.25% range multiplier, or a reduction to range of 70.75%:
1 RSD II: 1-0.7075=29.25%
2 RSD II: (1-0.7075)*(1-A1*0.7075)=11.26%
3 RSD II: (1-0.7075)*(1-A1*0.7075)*(1-A2*0.7075)=6.72%
4 RSD II: (1-0.7075)*(1-A1*0.7075)*(1-A2*0.7075)*(1-A3*0.7075)=5.37%

As you can see, on Tranquility, with 3 RSD IIs used by a specialized pilot in a specialized ship, the reduction in targeting range is about 2.6 times larger than the same setup currently on SiSi as well as losing the effect to scan resolution. For one, two and four RSD IIs respectively, the effect is 1.6 times, 2.2 times and 2.8 times.

The proposed increase to the %/level of the specialized ships would yield the following:
5% per level: 46.88%; 25.23%; 17.58%; 14.94%
7.5% per level: 41.56%; 20.45%; 13.63%; 11.38%
10% per level: 36.25%; 16.17%; 10.29%; 8.43%
12.5% per level: 30.93%; 12.37%; 7.49%; 6.03%
15% per level: 25.63%; 9.06%; 5.22%; 4.12%

Non-specialized ship: 57.50%; 36.26%; 27.47%; 24.16%

A bonus of 12.5% per level would bring the efficiency close to what it used to be on specialized ships. Why? Well because there are really two combat scenarios out there: long range and short range. At long range, the recons have little added value, aside from being called primary. Other ships can dampen the other fleet quite well, while also bringing damage to the table. With a targeting range of 250k (very optimistic, even on battleships) and an engagement at 150k, if the RSD actually has an influence (you are far in the fall-off range of the RSD), a single RSD I will break the lock, and it doesn't matter if it was fitted on a specialized ship.

That's why I think that the specialized ships were originally intended as close range support (unlike the Rook and Falcon which get an optimal bonus for ECM). Hence they need an increased bonus, because even without the other ship having sensorboosters and being a complete newbie, it's impossible to even reduce a Typhoon or Hyperion (lowest targeting range with 60km) within 10km using 3 RSD II with a fully skilled character flying specialized ships.

Nasair
Posted - 2007.11.25 13:42:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Nasair on 25/11/2007 13:43:27
So the blackbird, scorpion and falcon ECM strength increases are not a caldari ECM buff? Laughing Nor is the rook getting an extra low an ECM buff either, obviously the pilots will fit cargo expanders.....

Aenigma
Gallente
Wormhole Raiders
Posted - 2007.11.25 15:59:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Nasair
Edited by: Nasair on 25/11/2007 13:43:27
So the blackbird, scorpion and falcon ECM strength increases are not a caldari ECM buff? Laughing Nor is the rook getting an extra low an ECM buff either, obviously the pilots will fit cargo expanders.....


I doubt you actually read the entire post.

Originally by: Aenigma
The rest adresses ships.


The blackbird and the scorpion got their bonus increased from 10% to 15%. They are specialized ships, so it's hardly groundbreaking.

The Falcon was brought on par with the Rook. As you might have noticed, now all pairs of recons share one bonus that is tied to recon skill. Previously the Rook had 20% ECM strength per level, while the Falcon had 10% per level.

My definition of buff is that something is made better than it already is. ECM hasn't been made better with these changes. There are just more ships that can use it well.

Originally by: Nasair
Nor is the rook getting an extra low an ECM buff either, obviously the pilots will fit cargo expanders.....


They could fit an extra signal distortion amplifier there, so it's actually a small buff i forgot about. I do see the reason why CCP changed it. The Falcon has 3 lowslots. The Rook has 2. With the same bonuses, people would be 'forced' to use the Falcon. So they increased the amount of lowslots on the Rook.

I'd like to remind you that ECM is not what this thread is about. It's about remote sensor dampeners.

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.11.25 16:01:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Aenigma

Well, I think you are making a slight mistake here. ECM isn't buffed and will remain the same, which is not a bad thing.


You are aware of the 40% reduction in cap use for ECM?

Aenigma
Gallente
Wormhole Raiders
Posted - 2007.11.25 16:14:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Aenigma on 25/11/2007 16:21:33
Edited by: Aenigma on 25/11/2007 16:20:41
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Aenigma

Well, I think you are making a slight mistake here. ECM isn't buffed and will remain the same, which is not a bad thing.


You are aware of the 40% reduction in cap use for ECM?


No, I wasn't. I made an edit to my post. The ECM thing seems to detract attention from the actual subject, so i deleted it.

Chr0nosX
Habitual Euthanasia
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.11.25 16:32:00 - [97]
 

Might aswell fit ECM on the arazu now tbh.

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.11.25 16:35:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Aenigma
Edited by: Aenigma on 25/11/2007 16:21:33
Edited by: Aenigma on 25/11/2007 16:20:41
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Aenigma

Well, I think you are making a slight mistake here. ECM isn't buffed and will remain the same, which is not a bad thing.


You are aware of the 40% reduction in cap use for ECM?


No, I wasn't. I made an edit to my post. The ECM thing seems to detract attention from the actual subject, so i deleted it.



Yeah, sorry about that. In my defense, I had nothing to add to the other parts of your post, I agree with you. You would probably get more responses to your points if you made some slight deliberate mistakes. Wink

SoldierOfJustice
Infortunatus Eventus
Posted - 2007.11.26 01:00:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Aenigma

Remote Sensor Dampeners, even on these specialized ships, are less than useful as they are now, and they need an increase in their specialization bonus. For a pilot with Gallente Cruiser V and Signal Supression V an RSD II with a range script gives a 0.17*(1+5*0.05)*(1+5*0.05)*(1+1)=0.53125 reduction to range.

...

That's why I think that the specialized ships were originally intended as close range support (unlike the Rook and Falcon which get an optimal bonus for ECM). Hence they need an increased bonus, because even without the other ship having sensorboosters and being a complete newbie, it's impossible to even reduce a Typhoon or Hyperion (lowest targeting range with 60km) within 10km using 3 RSD II with a fully skilled character flying specialized ships.


Well put. I agree with you in everything you said. Another argument is that Gallente favours short range combat (drone + blaster ships), so it doesnt make sense to have long range EW. Which means if the damps are ment to be for the gallente then they better be usefull in short range combat.

Futher Bezluden
Minmatar
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.26 05:22:00 - [100]
 

What CCP fails to go is make the Damps and TD's useful only on the Gallente and Amarr EW ships. Scripted Damps and TD's are still quite useful on anyship out there so where is the big fix to them?

No huge Cap increase for damps or TD's, No massive str nerf with only Gallente/Amarr EW ships having massive bonuses, No G/A EW ship cap reduction bonuses. The ECM tweak done that made ECM mods pretty much a "Caldari" only ewar system should have been good enough for Damp/TD modules that work 90%+ of the time.

That Dev's don't want to break FOTM damp/TD usage shows just how out of touch they are with EVE. CCP completely breaks combat with sensor booster/tracking computer scripting, nerf the dictor -so they can be hit by crap optimal/tracking guns, but won't touch poly/snaked ships that are going to be even more overpowered.

CCP, start drug testing your DEV/GM's.

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.11.26 08:15:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Futher Bezluden
What CCP fails to go is make the Damps and TD's useful only on the Gallente and Amarr EW ships. Scripted Damps and TD's are still quite useful on anyship out there so where is the big fix to them?

No huge Cap increase for damps or TD's, No massive str nerf with only Gallente/Amarr EW ships having massive bonuses, No G/A EW ship cap reduction bonuses. The ECM tweak done that made ECM mods pretty much a "Caldari" only ewar system should have been good enough for Damp/TD modules that work 90%+ of the time.


You are free to fit damps to your ships after the changes, others are free to laugh at you if you do. Twisted Evil

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2007.11.26 08:26:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: voogru on 26/11/2007 08:26:30
I'm just going to sit and laugh at all of the whiners when this nerf and ECM buff hits.

I have a maxed arazu pilot, but I'll just switch to my maxed ECM pilot and it will be as if nothing happened. That's the advantage of multiple accounts, I already have every flavor of the month trained in advance.

Minas Reul
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.11.26 16:26:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Minas Reul on 26/11/2007 16:26:42
Originally by: SoldierOfJustice
Well put. I agree with you in everything you said. Another argument is that Gallente favours short range combat (drone + blaster ships), so it doesnt make sense to have long range EW. Which means if the damps are ment to be for the gallente then they better be usefull in short range combat.


Quite, and range itself is an added bonus, allowing you to be effective at ranges where you are less vulnerable, and ECM has the most of that.

Again, it's these subtle things that need to be taken into account, and should have made it obvious the RSD specced ships need a buff.

This is especially true since changes to other ships (interceptor scramble range and heavy dictors), have decreased the value of the Gallente recon's scram range bonus.


MTX PT
New European Regiment
R.U.R.
Posted - 2007.11.27 14:01:00 - [104]
 

/Signed

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.11.27 15:00:00 - [105]
 

Yeah, the Gallente recons need a boost to their damp bonuses (and the Amarr ones to their TD bonuses).

I have no problem with damps being weak on normal ships, but when they are stupidly weak even on ships specialized to use them, there's a problem.

Alpha Type
Gallente
Childhood's End
Posted - 2007.11.28 09:09:00 - [106]
 

Please fix this, CCP!

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2007.12.06 11:30:00 - [107]
 

/Signed and a friendly bump

AureuSZ
Posted - 2007.12.06 16:00:00 - [108]
 

/signed, my favorite ship is now quite useless :-(

Huan CK
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2007.12.06 23:43:00 - [109]
 

I totally agree with the op.
At this point, it is unprofitable and very much unpractical to field a Lachesis or an Arazu anywhere. It's ok that you've nerfed sensor dampeners, and I'm ok with it if the modules are WAY less effective on regular ships, but what's the point of having ships with bonus to sensor damps, and still not being able to put it to a use?
10% bonus to sensor damp efficiency instead of 5% IS indeed justified. It still is less than the sensor damps had on TQ, even if you use only 1 stat by adding a script. Script fitted, 1 stat available only, 20% nerf compared to before the patch, I can live with that, but without any changes done to the way it is now is WRONG.
What is a Lachesis or Arazu pilot supposed to do CCP, tell me, I seriously want to know!

Give the Lachesis and the Arazu double its sensor damp bonus, and give the Celestis maybe 1.5x its current bonus, give the maulus a 1.5x better bonus and the e-war frig double its current bonus, aswell!

Sunabi
Caldari
Shade.
Penumbra Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.06 23:56:00 - [110]
 

/signed

It feels wrong to fit 5 warp disruptors on my Lachesis but that's all it does well now Confused

Shaelin Corpius
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.12.06 23:59:00 - [111]
 

/signed

Save our recons!

Silpher
Jita Trade Services
Posted - 2007.12.07 00:09:00 - [112]
 

/signed!!
/signed!!
/signed!!

Halsoy
Gallente
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.12.07 00:34:00 - [113]
 

/signed... So the Arazu and Lachesis is now only good at tackle. But it's not even good at that really =/ Give me back my ship!

Boost the bonus on the arazu and lachesis!

Talo Momoe
Can't Decide
Balance of Judgment
Posted - 2007.12.07 00:42:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Minas Reul
I'd like, therefore, to propose an increase for the bonus per level that RSD specialised ships recieve, of 100%. Compare this to the 100% boost that the some ECM ships have already recieved, and others (Falcon) are likely to recieve, and it is not at all unreasonable.


Signed.

Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
Posted - 2007.12.07 01:15:00 - [115]
 

Well, this made it onto TQ without even a single dev response. Thanks Laughing.

Saka Mizuno
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.12.07 01:48:00 - [116]
 

/signed

Sabine Runebane
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2007.12.07 05:56:00 - [117]
 

/signed

Neva Second
G0D'S. INC
Posted - 2007.12.07 06:07:00 - [118]
 

/signed

CCP
unnerf the arazu or give me back my money !!!Evil or Very Mad

Ghost Gates
Posted - 2007.12.07 06:28:00 - [119]
 

Seriously what were u thinking CCP?? You turned Arazu and Lachesis in useless trash cans!!! I dont wanna have a 100 mil ship only to tackle, i can do that in a friggin frigate!
UNNERF UNNERF UNNERF UNNERF GALLENTE RECONS!!!!!!

Futher Bezluden
Minmatar
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.07 06:41:00 - [120]
 



Originally by: CCP Zulupark
We've looked at the stats on the specialized TD and Damp ships and we're happy with them at the moment. Remember, Tracking Disruption and Sensor Dampening is a sure thing. ECM is not.


1. Zulupark needs to be drug tested.
2. This system screws everyone.
3. Zulu, was increasing mod cap, decreasing str, then bonusing the ewar ships to use them so frakkin tough?

So what if they are a "Sure Thing", any ship whose pilot has signal suppression 4 and turret destabilization can use them effectively -just that little extra edge makes it easier for people to still use them more effectively than a multispec II. Being able to get 43% damps and 47% TD's on non-ewar ships -without riggings- just shows that the "nerf" isn't one. CCP nerfed ECM multispec II's so that they are really only effective on Caldari EW ships, not just "well, it's ok the jam 45% of the time on any ship."

If CCP wanted to touch their sacred cow, they'd have made damps 50+ str on gallente ewar ships and about 10% on non-ewar ships -same for TD's for only the amarr ewar ships. How is being able to get 42% for damps and 47% for TD's balance?

Seriously, kill off the little hacker bastards who created scripts and balance damps/td's properly. Skills could have been applied for sensor boosters, remote sens boosters, tracking computers and tracking links effectiveness to be balanced against damps/td's.

Thanks for making EVE "Short Range" Online without touching snakes, odj/poly ships that benefit 1000% from what script does.


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