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Minas Reul
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.11.11 00:38:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Minas Reul on 12/11/2007 16:07:03
Edited by: Minas Reul on 11/11/2007 17:10:38
Edited by: Minas Reul on 11/11/2007 17:10:22
I'm making this thread because I believe that the bonuses on remote sensor dampener specialised ships need to be re-examined in conjunction with the change to RSDs. Such a change was sensibly implemented for ECM specced ships, and I believe it is also warranted here. I deliberately avoided adding this to the scripts thread as it regards more than just the module itself.

As things stand now on the TQ server, an RSD II on a specced ship (ignoring other skill bonuses) gives:

48% + 25% bonus from ship = 61% on both stats,


Whereas an RSD II on SiSi gives:

17% + 25% bonus from ship = 21% on both stats

or

34% + 25% bonus from ship = 42.5% on just ONE stat. (using a script)


This means that a single RSD II is 35% as effective as on TQ to be for both stats, and 69% as effective for JUST ONE stat.


The reason for the introduction of scripts, and reduction of RSD strength was understandable: RSDs were becoming used as a 'standard' fit on many non-specced ships, with too great an effect, and I for one have always thought that the script is an elegant solution to the problem of modules with too many useful bonuses being applied.

That said, as the change stands now, specialised RSD ships will suffer greatly from their lack of power. With one RSD on a specced ship being less powerful then on a non-specced ship on TQ now, the ships will struggle to have any meaningful impact on combat in eve. With RSDs additionally being impacted by a stacking penalty, simply using more of them is not an option as it would be for an ECM ship.

I'd like, therefore, to propose an increase for the bonus per level that RSD specialised ships recieve, of 100%. Compare this to the 100% boost that the some ECM ships have already recieved, and others (Falcon) are likely to recieve, and it is not at all unreasonable.

Consider the following example:

Increase the ship bonus from 5% per level to 10% per level.

17% + 37.5% ship bonus = 25.5% on both stats. (equal to one unbonused RSD on TQ)

34% + 37.5% ship bonus = 51% on just ONE stat. (Less than one bonused RSD on TQ!)

Meaning that a single RSD II would be 42% as effective on both stats, and 84% as effective on JUST ONE stat.


It would probably be sensible to apply this to just the tech 2 variants (again, the same way it was handled with ECM specced ships). I hope this will be considered, as it would be a shame to see a specialisation slide into disuse.



Edited to reflect new bonus on SiSi (thanks Gripen) and changed suggested boost to 10% per level.

Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon
Posted - 2007.11.11 00:45:00 - [2]
 

I absolutely agree with you :)

Ruciza
Minmatar
The Feminists
Posted - 2007.11.11 02:34:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Minas Reul
the ships will struggle to have any meaningful impact on combat in eve.


Wouldn't that be wonderful?

A beautiful dream...

Celedris
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.11.11 05:31:00 - [4]
 

Unfortunately this has already asked and answered in the general forum thread:

Originally by: CCP Zulupark
We've looked at the stats on the specialized TD and Damp ships and we're happy with them at the moment. Remember, Tracking Disruption and Sensor Dampening is a sure thing. ECM is not.


Apparently the Falcon's new 14-point jammers used against intys & HACs isn't a sure thing. Hey I wonder what the sensor strength of everyone's favorite 7km/s heavy assault cruiser is? What about battleships you say? Overheated you get 17 point jam strength; I wonder what the sensor strength of your average gank-geddon is? It would be nice if you could overheat damps. That is with 162 base optimal ECM jammers too; presumably damps used outside of 45km (i.e. in falloff) for gang support is also a "sure thing".

All your recon & support skills, long-distance jamming & freq mod will carry over to ECM. It's less than four week's training to cross over to Caldari with sig disp IV, or a few more weeks for sig disp V. Your sig supression is the only skill that will be wasted. Have fun trolling the ECM whines with item database links to ECCM modules.

DiseL
Dirt Nap Squad
Posted - 2007.11.11 05:50:00 - [5]
 

Well, we now have two out four races of Recons that will be much less effective. I agree that RSD's were over powered but not on the Lachesis/Arazu. The NOS nerf killed Amarr recons now the Lachesis/Arazu are going to suffer the same fate. Now once again the ECM boats will be all over the battlefield. Hmmm, wasn't there a big ECM nerf quite some time ago and we come full circle on them only to hammer NOS and RSD's. I get tired of these yoyo changes. Makes specializing in any single ship a big mistake.

Vicious Phoenix
Posted - 2007.11.11 05:52:00 - [6]
 

Actually the Curse/Pilgrim got hit twice both nos and TD nerf. TDs are like 25+% less effective in Trinity as they are now.

Minas Reul
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.11.11 13:46:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulupark
We've looked at the stats on the specialized TD and Damp ships and we're happy with them at the moment. Remember, Tracking Disruption and Sensor Dampening is a sure thing. ECM is not.


I think we'd all like a better explanation to this though. One could go to the extreme and say that one RSD on a non-specialised ship is a 'sure thing'. The fact that it 'does' very little of any use is not beside the point.

ECM specialised ships get a whopping 100% strength bonus (as well as two other bonuses), where a RSD specced ship gets a meagre 25%, which is hardly a specialisation at all.

If CCP want to make RSDs a bit less definite, then perhaps they should be looking at reducing their range, to keep them firmly in the mid-range EWar category, and increasing the bonus on RSD specced ships.

Alpha Type
Gallente
Childhood's End
Posted - 2007.11.11 15:33:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Minas Reul
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
We've looked at the stats on the specialized TD and Damp ships and we're happy with them at the moment. Remember, Tracking Disruption and Sensor Dampening is a sure thing. ECM is not.


I think we'd all like a better explanation to this though. One could go to the extreme and say that one RSD on a non-specialised ship is a 'sure thing'. The fact that it 'does' very little of any use is not beside the point.

ECM specialised ships get a whopping 100% strength bonus (as well as two other bonuses), where a RSD specced ship gets a meagre 25%, which is hardly a specialisation at all.

If CCP want to make RSDs a bit less definite, then perhaps they should be looking at reducing their range, to keep them firmly in the mid-range EWar category, and increasing the bonus on RSD specced ships.


Zulupark's comment seems also to have missed the point that ECM is not stacking-penalised like RSDs are. I hope CCP aren't justifying the lack of an increased RSD bonus on the basis of comparing a single module too ECM.

CCP, please look again at RSD ship bonuses!

Lelulie
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2007.11.11 15:53:00 - [9]
 

Recons are fine now except for overpowered ECM changes, back in time with e-war we go.

Gripen
Posted - 2007.11.11 16:41:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Minas Reul
Whereas an RSD II on SiSi gives:

17% + 25% bonus from ship = 38% on both stats

or

34% + 25% bonus from ship = 50.5% on just ONE stat. (using a script)

RSD II with 25% bonus from sisi (with and without script): pic.

They actially reduced the bonus so unless it's some kind of mistake I doubt it's worthwhile to ask them to revisit somthing.

Details in my post here.

Minas Reul
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.11.11 17:11:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Minas Reul on 11/11/2007 18:05:07
Originally by: Gripen
Originally by: Minas Reul
Whereas an RSD II on SiSi gives:

17% + 25% bonus from ship = 38% on both stats

or

34% + 25% bonus from ship = 50.5% on just ONE stat. (using a script)

RSD II with 25% bonus from sisi (with and without script): pic.

They actially reduced the bonus so unless it's some kind of mistake I doubt it's worthwhile to ask them to revisit somthing.

Details in my post here.

Thanks, Original post updated.

Clearly the bonus mechansim was changed with the expectation that damping would stay at less than 64%, such that the multipliying bonuses don't give > 100%.

Again, it would be nice if someone from CCP can explain how this squares with the 'RSDs always work' comment, or are they planning on nerfing ECM bonuses too?

Bein Glorious
SAKUMA DROP
ANAHEIM ELECTRONICS Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.11 17:34:00 - [12]
 

thread title broken

Minas Reul
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.11.11 18:04:00 - [13]
 

Point-labouring is a-go:

I made a small table to demostrate what I mean.
http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/0711/RSD.JPG

As you can see, taking into account max skills, an RSD II is only 75% as effetcive on just one stat as on TQ atm, and 38% as effective on both stats.

It's clear to me why the bonus mechanism may have been changed: with the bonus being multiplicative, it encourages the RSD user to focus on one stat, as you get a correspondingly bigger effect from your skills. Previously you got a larger effect from the bonus when it applied to a smaller number (i.e. unscripted RSD).

I think this could be a good idea to be honest, but I think it really MUST go hand in hand with a change to the ship bonus. I've added 4 rows to the table to show what the module would be like with some different ship bonuses. Personally, I think 10% per level would be good (still weaker than a current RSD, and only affecting one stat). However, any increase would be welcome, and the 7.5% per level would probably save RSD specced ships from disuse.




P.S. Thanks to whomever fixed the title Embarassed

Flawliss
Gallente
Pilots of True Potential
Posted - 2007.11.11 20:13:00 - [14]
 

/Super Signed

Era Mercatrix
Posted - 2007.11.11 23:10:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Minas Reul
Point-labouring is a-go:

I made a small table to demostrate what I mean.
http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/0711/RSD.JPG

As you can see, taking into account max skills, an RSD II is only 75% as effetcive on just one stat as on TQ atm, and 38% as effective on both stats.

It's clear to me why the bonus mechanism may have been changed: with the bonus being multiplicative, it encourages the RSD user to focus on one stat, as you get a correspondingly bigger effect from your skills. Previously you got a larger effect from the bonus when it applied to a smaller number (i.e. unscripted RSD).

I think this could be a good idea to be honest, but I think it really MUST go hand in hand with a change to the ship bonus. I've added 4 rows to the table to show what the module would be like with some different ship bonuses. Personally, I think 10% per level would be good (still weaker than a current RSD, and only affecting one stat). However, any increase would be welcome, and the 7.5% per level would probably save RSD specced ships from disuse.




P.S. Thanks to whomever fixed the title Embarassed


This man talks sense. Deffo /signed for an increased ship bonus, especially since the calculation has been changed.

Azuse
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.11.11 23:38:00 - [16]
 

I fully agree with this, and thank you for finally creating an easily read table Smile, it has spawned multiple threads over these months and has indeed been relooked at by the balancing team and been give the were happy response.

Last time i spoke to a dev i was told it was because dampening was a cert while ecm was chance. When i said sensor booster made that a load of bull i got no response (well i was rude) but its true really. Unlike an eccm it has a dual use, boosting lock range ect and countering damps.

Weren't dual use modules what script were ment to prevent?

So as much i i wish this would happen all i can really say is use your arazu while you can and train caldari cruiser v, thankfully ecm skills are almost identical. Then sell the arazu, or wait and reprocess after the patch.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.11.12 01:17:00 - [17]
 

I've always said that the damp specific ships should have their bonuses increased to offeset the reduced effectiveness of the new damps.

I agree 100% with the OP.

Amy Wang
Posted - 2007.11.12 02:06:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Amy Wang on 12/11/2007 02:14:44
It is a pretty hefty nerf indeed RSDs are getting, much worse then the ECM nerf that inspired quite a lot of whining back in the days. Reduced efficiency %-wise AND limited to one effect.

The obvious solution would be to give damp specialized ships a bonus to bring the RSD to an effect like before the nerf on ONE of the two effects, perhaps even a bit higher, the overall nerf would still prevent non specialized ships from fitting them regularly just like the ecm nerf did which is a good thing I guess.

The argument that Jamming is "only" chance based while RSD is a "sure thing" is shortsighted.

RSD dont work at the range jammers works at (from 0km to over 200km on a specialized ship). Moreoever the number of modules needed to shot down a single ship with RSD is higher (normally 3) then with jammers where for a lot of ships a single module is enough to nearly permajam a target. Sure its chance based, meaning it doesnt work always but if you chose to put 3 jammers on one target its far from likely they all miss on a specialised ships with decent skills.

Beast Rabban
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.11.12 04:56:00 - [19]
 

I don't like the RSD changes any more than you do, as it's a pinnacle means of deterrence for my rapier, but it puts the arazu and the lachesis more on par with the damage dealing recons(all but the falcon). Be thankful that the gallente recon is still purpose built to have ewar to add to it's survivability, as it will eventually be rebuffed to answer the never-ending complaints of how useless RSD's are. All the recons will still have a means of ewar survivability sans the minmatar; At least you dont get target painting. Rolling Eyes Oh and while the rapier and huginn have decent resists, they are marginally more protected than other recons which is to say not much at all.

Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.11.12 05:10:00 - [20]
 

Can you put up a neat chart with the changed effectiveness if the target is using a scripted sensor booster vs an RSD with the same type of script?

Captain Narmio
Blue Republic
Posted - 2007.11.12 09:48:00 - [21]
 

Lowslot amplifier module? Just throwing it out there.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2007.11.12 10:09:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Captain Narmio
Lowslot amplifier module? Just throwing it out there.


Imho, the current ecm "damage mod" should work for every kind of EW.

Screaming murder because RSD aren't as effective in Sisi than in TQ is premature, because:

- There's going to be a lot less multi-sensor boosted ships out there, since sensor boosters get nerfed, too.

- There's is a gang module that significantly increase EW effectiveness. Maybe you should start using RSD with an Eos in your gang?

I heard that in TQ a Lachesis with gang mods can get 83% effectiveness on it's RSD. That is clearly overpowered, so it gets nerfed.

Holy Cheater
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2007.11.12 10:32:00 - [23]
 

And so how about racial jammer with strength of 14 vs a marauder's sensor strength 11-14? Isn't it a sure thing?

Minas Reul
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.11.12 10:36:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Minas Reul on 12/11/2007 11:12:54
Originally by: Draygo Korvan
Can you put up a neat chart with the changed effectiveness if the target is using a scripted sensor booster vs an RSD with the same type of script?

I surely can:
http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/minas/rsd2.JPG

As you can see, scripts make RSDs less effective (obvious really). I think it's also clear that the bonus should be increased.

As things stand at the moment on sisi, an unscripted SB almost cancels out an unscripted RSD on a specialised ship.

With both modules running scripts, the RSD on the specialised ship is still not much more powerful than the SB on an unspecialised ship.

EDIT: It's also worth pointing out that even if one module is 90% as efective compared to the TQ version (e.g. scripted RSD and 50% ship bonus vs no SB), then the effect of using multiple RSD accentuates the difference. That is to say that 2 RSDs will be 81% as effective as 2 RSDs on TQ, and 3 will be just 73% as effective.

Compare those numbers to the current sisi arrangement, and you get 56% effectiveness for two RSDs, and 42% for three RSDs, compared to the TQ version.

Minas Reul
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.11.12 10:43:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Captain Narmio
Lowslot amplifier module? Just throwing it out there.


Imho, the current ecm "damage mod" should work for every kind of EW.

Screaming murder because RSD aren't as effective in Sisi than in TQ is premature, because:

- There's going to be a lot less multi-sensor boosted ships out there, since sensor boosters get nerfed, too.

- There's is a gang module that significantly increase EW effectiveness. Maybe you should start using RSD with an Eos in your gang?

I heard that in TQ a Lachesis with gang mods can get 83% effectiveness on it's RSD. That is clearly overpowered, so it gets nerfed.

No-one's screaming murder yet. YARRRR!!

I don't think the script change will discourage SBs, since they generally get used on ships that need them (snipers etc).

I was comparing like-for-like with the ECM changes for a reason. Obviously there are always other factors, but given that only 1/8 CS has a significant effect on EWar strength, it seems a bit premature to include it in a baseline comparison.

Yeah, the RSD is overpowered on TQ, but it has had 3 changes now which reduce it's power, and it seems too low now, for a specialised ship.

Minas Reul
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2007.11.12 13:53:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Minas Reul on 12/11/2007 13:53:02
More tables!

http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/minas/rsd3.JPG

Apparently 3 Sensor Boosters on a Non-Specialised ship should be 80% as powerful as 3 RSDs on a specialised ship. Rolling Eyes

Any devs care to comment?

acompton
Gallente
EVE Reserve Bank
Posted - 2007.11.12 18:52:00 - [27]
 

Honestly is scares me to see quotes from a dev that say that RSD's are a 'sure thing'

They are within a certain range, but then they go to chance based just like ECM.

If this is the same dev that is making the damp adjustments then all of the Gallente recon pilots better start training for something else because they apparently have no idea how the things actually work.

Kaiji Vincente
Posted - 2007.11.13 01:35:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Minas Reul
Edited by: Minas Reul on 12/11/2007 13:53:02
More tables!

http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/minas/rsd3.JPG

Apparently 3 Sensor Boosters on a Non-Specialised ship should be 80% as powerful as 3 RSDs on a specialised ship. Rolling Eyes




Minor quibble: the chart you link to doesn't show the unbonused RSD numbers on Singularity for easy comparison.

Even though I do agree with the scripts idea in principle, the details don't look so promising for the EW specalists. If these numbers are accurate, performance gain for using a Celestis/Lachesis/Azrau for damping is rather lackluster.

Right now, I fear the net result will be even fewer Celesti and Gallente recons being used outside of the solo gank role. As a means of encouragement to leave RSDs on the dedicated ships, it seems unlikely to work.

Celedris
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.11.13 01:54:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
I heard that in TQ a Lachesis with gang mods can get 83% effectiveness on it's RSD. That is clearly overpowered, so it gets nerfed.


I heard that on Singularity a Falcon with gang mods can get 18-points on it's 230km optimal jammers. 90-100% jam chance on most battleships, and single-module 100% permajam on anything smaller that isn't a recon. That is clearly balanced which is why it got buffed.

Arana Tellen
Gallente
Clan Death Corps
Posted - 2007.11.13 02:34:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: acompton
Honestly is scares me to see quotes from a dev that say that RSD's are a 'sure thing'

They are within a certain range, but then they go to chance based just like ECM.

If this is the same dev that is making the damp adjustments then all of the Gallente recon pilots better start training for something else because they apparently have no idea how the things actually work.


I already have caldari cruiser working up YARRRR!!


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