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Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.11.10 10:34:00 - [1]
 

I have been thinking about upcoming changes and possibilitis to adabt to those changes in most effective way (where measure of effectivity is mission running speed).

For background story I have alt flying torpedo CNR in missions with my main (cruise missile CNR). As upcoming patch is changing torpedoes considerably I have 2 options open to me (leaving out options to change ships like using marauders or some other race ships altho should something else be more effective than my currently considered options I'm willing to change). Those 2 options I'm currently considering are

1) Switch to cruise missiles (engagement range 110 km, CN ammo)
7x CN Cruise 1x Auto targeter I
1x XL T2 booster 3x T2 hardener 1x H.Cap.Injector II 1x PWNAGE painter
4x CN BCU 1x Signal Amp II
3x CCC I rigs + 5 light/medium T2 drones and 5% proper hardwires.

2) Keep using torps (engagement range 70 km, T2 javelins)
7x Siege II 1x Auto Targeter I
1x CN XL booster 3x T2 hardener 1xDark Blood injector 1xPWNAGE painter
3x CN BCU 1xShadow CPU 1x Selyenne's RCU
1x T2 Hydr. bay thruster 1x T1 Hydr bay thruster 1x T1 Rocket Fuel cache + 5 light/medium T2 drones and 5% proper hardwires.

I'm kinda hanging between those 2 options as both have their advantages. Torpedoes will have really nice RoF after change hits TQ. and if they can still one volley BC's and kill battleships in 3 - 4 volleys they would be even more uber than they currently are for missions. On the other hard their signature is increasing also considerably and I'm not quite sure if 1 painter will cut it (even if I will be using only javelins). That posted 'new' CNR torp fit needs also somewhat bigger investment than switching to cruise missiles (altho it's possible to save a bit by skipping T2 rig). That particular officer RCU is not very expencive also (around 250 mil) but one needs to have AWU 5 (needed anyway for marauders) to make it all fit.

So question I'm looking answer for (in the form of pre patch speculations) is whitch one of those setups would be able to apply more actual dps ine NPC's in lev 4 missions.

Xebov Darklight
Posted - 2007.11.10 11:25:00 - [2]
 

The Cruise will do More Dmg, the Torps have a Sig of 530 so they are useless against the most Missionships without 2 Targetpainters, with the lots of Crusiers at the most L4 you will be faster with Cruise.

Scimon Tinker
Posted - 2007.11.10 11:34:00 - [3]
 

hey hey

To me this is alot like the auto V arty debate.

Whichever you choose you should have the setup fully dedicated to that purpose. With autos generally you need to switch to an armor tank and dedicate your mids to speed/paint/web.

I dont fly crap so im not 100% on wavens. The new torps ROF is very nice as you say and even at 70km they are gonna still be very impressive.

you say the painter may not be enough on its own. Does this also account for your lack of skills in that area or is your painting skill high and you do actually need a second painter. I would also bring up the MMOLG thingy and say maybe a team mate could provide some painting assistance in a hyena :)

just a few thoughts for ya.


Elle D
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.11.10 11:43:00 - [4]
 

wow I've never considered using an Autotargeter? Does this work well? Back when i started playing I used one for 3 mins and when it started locking structures I took it off.

Dragon Lord
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.11.10 11:47:00 - [5]
 

Ok Javs have a 350m exp radius on sisi atm, normal torps have a 450m exp radius and rage have a 530m exp radius, so if ur using javs 1 painter will do fine.

Im considering keeping my officer siege missile launchers as the new rof i get is insaine. and if i fit t2 rigs and max my range skills i should get them to just under 50kms, which should be enough for most missions.

The ones its not enough for ill switch to my cruise setup. it looks like my new dps with faction on sisi is over 1350dps but my range will only be 48kms. Guess ill have to try it out and see.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.11.10 13:32:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 10/11/2007 13:36:44
Originally by: Elle D
wow I've never considered using an Autotargeter? Does this work well? Back when i started playing I used one for 3 mins and when it started locking structures I took it off.

Nobody that fits it does it to ever turn it on (although it's not THAT bad).
It's mainly there to have +2 max locked targets.
Originally by: Carniflex
1x T2 Hydr. bay thruster 1x T1 Hydr bay thruster 1x T1 Rocket Fuel cache

AFAIK, missile flight speed is not stacking-nerfed... so, 3x HBT rigs.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.11.10 14:56:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Akita T

AFAIK, missile flight speed is not stacking-nerfed... so, 3x HBT rigs.


Good to know. In that case it's indeed better to just use 3 missile speed rigs.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.11.11 17:31:00 - [8]
 

Apparently both missile speed and missile flight time hardwires are both slot 7 (unless I'm missing something, ZMC1000 and ZML1000) so theoretical max range drops 5% as I will be able to use only one of those. With max skills it should still reach up to max 70 km tho with javelins.

For topedo setup optimal hardwires would be
slot 6: 5% damage for torps
slot 7: 5% missile speed
slot 8: -
slot 9: 5% missile explocion velocity
slot10: 5% missile RoF

Feel free to point out any hardwires I might have missed for 'optimal' solution. Should I go cruise afterall hardwires would be the same (just 5% cruise damage instead torpedo one) plus 5% missile signature one in slot 8.

In current iteration in SiSi Javelins look a bit more promising for mission running than switching to cruise (signature 350 m is not too bad, especially as I'm able to use 1 painter with good skills also). Considering that my main character would keep using cruise and consentrating on smaller targets (also with 1 target painter).

Qui Shon
Posted - 2007.11.11 18:57:00 - [9]
 

So did you test it?

The guy in the other thread reported hitting npc's at 38-39km, when theoretical range should have been 44-46km.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.11.12 06:48:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
So did you test it?

The guy in the other thread reported hitting npc's at 38-39km, when theoretical range should have been 44-46km.


Not yet. My alt lacks AWU 5 and my main Torps 5. Altho I'm planning to when I get a bit more time (by making some additional compromises when fitting it to squeeze it all in under AWU 5).

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.11.12 09:08:00 - [11]
 

Made myself a bit time to run one mission in SiSi with new torps. Initial results suck to put it gently. Altho some of that 'suck' can be blamed on crappy fittings I had to use due to lack of some needed skills on my alt (below optimal missile rigging skill and lack of AWU 5)

Mission used in testing was Recon 1 of 3. Results were
HAC - 4 to 8 volleys (javelins + painter), 4 - 6 volleys (navy + painter)
BS - 7 to 9 volleys (javelins + painter), 6 volleys (navy + painter), 5 volleys (rage + painter)
Elite frigate - 3 to 4 volleys (javelins + painter), 4 volleys (navy + painter)
BC - 2 volleys (javelins + painter)

Battleships were 900k to 1.2 mil guristas. Used 3 T1 missile flight speed rigs. Theoretical range with javelins were 58.8 km (missile range skills 4, BS 5), as battleships orbited at 32 km it was possible to reach them even with rage torps altho some HAC's were keen at keeping 45 km orbit. 'Compromise' in low slots to make it all fit was using only one CN BCU (+ 2x CPU, 2x RCU). Alt used also 5% missile RoF and speed hardwires (no damage hardwire).

I can currently (in TQ) kill battleships in 3 to 4 volleys (even those 1.2 mil ones in missions) and one volley battlecruisers (with 3x BCU's and navy ammo). I will save final judgement until I'm able to properly test new torps against cruise missiles tho, but my initial impression is that torps might not be worth the hassle afterall.

Ulstan
Posted - 2007.11.12 19:40:00 - [12]
 

Quote:
Nobody that fits it does it to ever turn it on (although it's not THAT bad).
It's mainly there to have +2 max locked targets.



Is it +2 to the ships max or to your skills max? That is, are you still limited by how many targets the ship can lock?

If your ship can lock 3 and you can lock 5, can you now lock 5?

If your ship can lock 6 and you can lock 5, can you now lock 7?

Kokkoro
Posted - 2007.11.12 19:53:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
Quote:
Nobody that fits it does it to ever turn it on (although it's not THAT bad).
It's mainly there to have +2 max locked targets.



Is it +2 to the ships max or to your skills max? That is, are you still limited by how many targets the ship can lock?

If your ship can lock 3 and you can lock 5, can you now lock 5?

If your ship can lock 6 and you can lock 5, can you now lock 7?


It's limited by skill. If the most targets you can lock is 7 adding a auto-targeter will do nothing, however it benifits people with the multitasking skill.

KISOGOKU
Posted - 2007.11.12 20:20:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: KISOGOKU on 12/11/2007 20:28:27
Edited by: KISOGOKU on 12/11/2007 20:22:01
thank you for numbers,i think torpedos are useless for missions now
My numbers with reguler wraith cruise
Bs 5-10 volley ,rachen Mysuna is 17 volley
BC 1 1/2 ( 1 and half) volley
HAC (eagle class ) 6 volley
elite frigates ,dont remember drones take care of them generally
I looked your numbers and i lost my hope about torpedo golem ,it will not be faster and + alot of training (awu5 ).I was hoping it would be nice torpedo ship ugh
edit:Btw i have only 5% rof implant no damage and other implants
Originally by: Carniflex
Made myself a bit time to run one mission in SiSi with new torps.
BS - 7 to 9 volleys (javelins + painter), 6 volleys (navy + painter), 5 volleys (rage + painter)
Elite frigate - 3 to 4 volleys (javelins + painter), 4 volleys (navy + painter)
BC - 2 volleys (javelins + painter)


Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.11.12 20:53:00 - [15]
 

I'm not entirely 'written off' torps just jet. Those thigs I was shooting were pith usurpers mostly (highest bounty mission version of battleship), so they tank somewhat harder than 'regular' mission opponents and I had only 1 BCU on. In general missions are quite sensitive to small changes in actual damage levels.

Before writing off torps entirely I will try also to run small sample (more than one) of missions with proper damage potential (3x BCU and perhaps even hardwire if I can get my claws on one in SiSi). Will need just to use my main to remote shield boost my alt if I throw out the tank to mount proper gank with sub par skills.

Theoretically Siege Raven would end with approx 5% better dps with new torps by switching from current faction torps to new javelins and approx 60 .. 65 km 'effective' range (t1 rigs, max skills and leaving small playroom to take into acount that your targets are also moving). Part where I'm concerned is however if it's going to be actually faster in missions (as your damage is not dps but discreet in bursts then having to do 'one more' burst can somewhat negate 'on paper' better dps).

Khyara
Posted - 2007.11.12 21:11:00 - [16]
 

Having very low missile/torpedo skills (almost all exclusively in gunnery) my perspective on this topic is some what different I think from the rest of the individuals who have posted.

Currently with my Raven I can hit around 40km's with torpedo's. While this is a slight nuisance in some cases (in rare cases) Ive adapted my play style to that range. I can solo a number of lvl 4 missions, Radar sites and plexes without too much difficulty, and will have increased success shortly with beefed up shield skills and a better shield tank.

My point of view is the following: If I increase my range on my missiles prior to patch, and end up with 45km's range post patch, it will be pretty much where Im at currently, so no real effect except extra damage (ROF increase). I suppose I dont understand why so many people now feel that torpedo's are useless for PVE when Ive had nothing but success at the 40KM range. Perhaps individuals just need to alter their loadout to absorb more damage until they are in range.

The only real annoyance I can see is the BS's which can move faster than a Raven and sit at the 50km mark just out of reach. In those cases, I just use my Tech 2 drones + Tech 2 turrets on two slots to knock it down. Takes longer yes but it can be done. Either that or use Webber drones? I think there are options.

Argenton Sayvers
Posted - 2007.11.12 21:50:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Khyara
Takes longer yes but it can be done.


People used to solo L4s in a Harpy. Some missions might still be doable.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2007.11.13 08:44:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Qui Shon on 13/11/2007 08:57:49
Originally by: Khyara
... until they are in range.



Sayvers already commented, but let me add that optimally there should be no time wasted "getting into range", weapons should be firing continuously from mission start to end, except when warping. I can't quite make that happen regurarly yet, but a few times I've gotten pretty close. My alts Domi finishes off the last HAC/Cruiser and my small drones kill the last frig while my torps make the last BS/BC explode, that's what I aim for. Perfect timing is getting the last frig just seconds before the BS & Cruiser explode so drones are already returning and I can activate the gate the second the other rats explode.

Of course, some missions are very hard to do efficiently with my lousy skillset, and my overall dps and mission completion time are pretty crappy still, for using two ships.

Murasaki Midori
Posted - 2007.11.13 09:02:00 - [19]
 

what about the cost effectiveness? aren't javs likw three times the prices of regular torps?

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.11.13 09:28:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Murasaki Midori
what about the cost effectiveness? aren't javs likw three times the prices of regular torps?


They are approx 3x cheaper than ammo I'm currently using. I'm currently 'breaking even' using faction ammo (meaning that profits I earn from doing mission faster go into getting that ammo to make them faster so I earn approx the same I would when I would use T1 ammo, but are doing missions somewhat faster overall).

Would I get same effectivity with T2 ammo it sure would be cost effective for me, altho if it's cost effective in general is somewhat personal depending on your skills and setup.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.11.14 08:41:00 - [21]
 

Managed to do second test run at last. Only one mission tho as after latest SiSi patch I'm somewhat bugged (crashing with session changes, like jumping thru gates and so on, bugreport already filed about it).

It was against blood raiders, 'smuggler interception' with a lot of cruisers and fair share of battleships. Blood raider battleships tank approx as good as regular gurista ones (using proper damagetypes) so it should give reasonable impression about 'average' mission effectivity with new torps.

Results (3x CN BCU, javelin ammo + 1x painter with good skills):
BC - 2 (average for 2 BC's)
Cruiser - 2.11 (average for 27 cruisers, 1 to 4 volleys)
Frigate - 1.33 (average for 6 frigates, 1 to 2 volleys)
BS* - 4.45 (average for 11 BS, 3 to 6 volleys)

* average would be somewhat lower as there was 4 BS's that would have been killed with 4 volleys if I would have had also damage hardwire but currently were killed by 5th volley with a bit hull left after 4th.

Range: Theoretical max range was 58.8 km while in practice torps started to do damage at approx 52 km. So with new torps practical max range is approx 90% of theoretical. It's just rough impression tho not hard fact as I'm quite sure it depends on a lot of factors I did not poke.

Conclusions for me: Well, range is more or less ok. A bit on the uncomfortably short side but it's possible to do some missions with that range without running out of targets and having to wait for your opponents to slowboat into range (with some exceptions ofc, like worlds collide and vegenance). Damage potential is good, altho not as good as on paper if you just look at dps number. 'New' RoF number is approx 5.25 sec vs 'old' RoF number of approx 6.8 sec ('new' is T2, 'old' CN). Overall 'new' torps will be marginally faster in missions than old torps ('new' javelins vs 'old' CN torps) by breaking more or less even with old torps against smaller targets (who are usually killed by drones anyway) and by being slightly faster against 'big' targets with exception of BC's who will need 2 volleys to kill with javelins vs 1 volley of 'old' torps. In practice with max skills I would expect javelin effective range to be around 60 ... 63 km.

Note however that I have not compared 'new' torps against cruise missile setups altho by first impression 'new' torps should be considerably faster within their engagement range by their greater RoF and slightly better damage per missile. They will be ineffective in some missions tho where some targets will start 90+ km away from you.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.11.14 14:23:00 - [22]
 

Cruise missiles

Got same mission 'Smuggler interception' against blood raiders in TQ and tested it with my main character with cruise missiles. It was not entirely 'fair' comparison as my main has 5% damage hardwire (what my alt in SiSi was lacking), but other than that setup was same as posted above (meaning 4x BCU cruise vs 3x BCU torps).

Skipping the numbers only noticeable difference was that some battleships took 1 more volley above those numbers presented above. Burst damage (per volley) was only approx 5 ..6 % lower than new javelin torps. RoF is 6.23 sec (vs approx 5.25 .. 5.5 with new T2 siege launchers) so on paper dps difference is noticeable in favor of torpedoes. Also I'm using a bit more expencive ammo than my alt was using (CN ammo vs T2 ammo on alt).

Overall new torps are ok for missions with good skills but cruise are more 'universal' and not far behind torpedoes in mission effectivity. Actual speed difference in missions where NPC's are all closer than 60 km would end up somewhere around 15% in favor of torps witch is noticeable but on the other hand long range missions would take considerably longer with only torpedo ship.

And feel free to comment, I'm doing good job convincing myself, but perhaps I'm missing something in here ...

Qui Shon
Posted - 2007.11.14 15:05:00 - [23]
 

Heh, not much I can comment, except to say good job and thanks for sharing the info.

Looks to me like only a few select missions will be good with torps, mainly some Angel missions where they orbit well within T1/Faction torp range. But I'm not so convinced about Javelins and 40km+ missions. If you've already got the skills (BS 5, Proj 5, Bombard 5, torp spec 4+) then sure, your list of missions viable for torps grows, but I don't think I'll be training those skills to 5 anytime soon. The dps benefit just isn't there to warrant the training time and the drawbacks from loosing all rig slots, just so you can hit targets at 50km...Or is it? Nah, not right now, not for me, anyway.



Lord Jovial
Vashta Nerada Corp
Posted - 2007.11.15 12:21:00 - [24]
 

So what mish should I look out for that torp's will come up short?

Aarla
Posted - 2007.11.15 12:45:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Aarla on 15/11/2007 12:46:28
just curious , wasnt there something about some missile skills not working for Torps like bombardment og 1 other skill , that gave flighttime and velocity. So my question is does the hardwiring help ? they say missile and torps arent "missile" they are well torps.

oh another thing , they change calibration on sisi from 350 to 400 , what means you can fit 2xt2 and 1xt1 rig

d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.11.15 13:28:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: d026 on 15/11/2007 14:15:50
I did some missions on SIS with my cnr and i came to the conclusion that cnr w/cruisemissiles performs the best. Even with a afterburner and arround +50k range with javelins you just lose to much time flying arround picking up ships not willing to orbit you closer:) so at the end you kill much faster with torps but you lose to much time afterburning arorund.

also the dps difference between javelin torps and fury cruisemissiles is marginal but fury cms have like 20k better range and cn have even better range 8same dps as fury but a lil more expensive)





Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2007.11.15 14:14:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Lord Jovial
So what mish should I look out for that torp's will come up short?


Vegenance
Worlds Collide
Silence the informant
Unauthorized Military Presence
The Score
Massive attack

From the top of my head. Quite likely I have missed some. Most of them have NPC pockets starting at 70 to 120 km away from you in some stages and then you will have to either travel into range or wait for them to get into range themselves.

Originally by: d026

also the dps difference between javelin torps and fury cruisemissiles is marginal but fury cms have like 20k better range..


Hm. You have point there indeed. I did not consider T2 missiles at all when I was pondering about effectivity. Mainly bcos I'm using navy launchers with navy ammo (navy ammo is approx as effective as tech 2 just without drawbacks but considerably more expencive), but it is actually possible that T2 cruise setup might be more effective in some missions than 'new' torps.

I have been keeping an eye on typical mission engagement ranges lately and as mentioned above I'm finding approx 60 km range on new torps to be somewhat uncomfortably short. New RoF is very attractive, but having bunch of rats at 90 km from you could mean very noticeable additional timesink.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2007.11.18 13:49:00 - [28]
 

I don't know for which factions you run, but me running Amarr, I am probably going to replace my CNR with a Kronos for those missions where my Abaddon (or soon to be Nightmare) does not work due to NPC resists. I am fairly certain that I can get better results out of it than out of new torps or switching to cruise, and the Abaddon already works better for Sansha/Blood/Drones anyway.

Fuazzole
Posted - 2007.11.18 15:10:00 - [29]
 

But can you use Javalins in your officer seige set up

MrRookie
M. Corp
M. PIRE
Posted - 2007.11.19 23:33:00 - [30]
 

Just did som testing myself

I had the 5% missile speed implant and the 5% missile flight time implant.
2x missile speed rigs and 1x missile flight time rig all T1 rigs. The speed and flight time rigs are stacking nerfed btw so bether stick with 2 speed and 1 flight time.

All relevant skills are maxed except for the missile projection skill (10% flight speed) which is at lvl 4.

I get these ranges with Javelins and standard torps
Javelin 63-64 km
Standard 39-40 km

Equaly interesting is the flight speed:
Jav 7732 m/s
Norm 4299 m/s

Seems these ranges works perfectly fine. Might be alitle easier on the Golem compared to the CNR due to fittings and the painter bonus but a fairly good option nevertheless. With missile projection at lvl 4 I doubt any NPCs will out of range and especially not at lvl 5.
The speed rigs also help with defenders.


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