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blankseplocked The new Eos: an Astarte with less grid, and the DPS of a Thorax.
 
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Waxau
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2007.11.10 23:41:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Rastigan
Originally by: Waxau

Ok im quoting that for one reason. Your Eos deals the dps of a thorax right?
My vulture deals the dps of a Ferox.
The ferox deals less dps than a thorax.
We arent whining.


The Vulture (my favorite fleet CS to fly btw) can also hit people at 200 kilometers,

RAW EFT DPS isnt everything, its when you can apply the full DPS that kills ships...


And an Eos now can technically tank better. So theyre equal. Whats there to whine about? Except the gallente are no longer the FoTM (or year...) and cant deal with it.

Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2007.11.11 02:00:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Kai Lae
Oh and wray wray I think the nighthawk complaints are in a different thread :)


Oops. Didn't really mean to divert the thread. I just used the nighthawk as a point of comparison and it kind of snowballed from there. I do that a lot. Laughing

Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.11.11 02:57:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Hllaxiu on 11/11/2007 02:57:29
Originally by: Waxau
Originally by: Rastigan
Originally by: Waxau

Ok im quoting that for one reason. Your Eos deals the dps of a thorax right?
My vulture deals the dps of a Ferox.
The ferox deals less dps than a thorax.
We arent whining.


The Vulture (my favorite fleet CS to fly btw) can also hit people at 200 kilometers,

RAW EFT DPS isnt everything, its when you can apply the full DPS that kills ships...


And an Eos now can technically tank better. So theyre equal. Whats there to whine about? Except the gallente are no longer the FoTM (or year...) and cant deal with it.


The Vulture has a significantly stronger passive tank than an Eos. This is what is important in fleet.

(Oh, and +1 to what kai said)

Spenz
Gallente
PCG Enterprises
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2007.11.11 04:50:00 - [124]
 

An Eos...*snicker*...can tank as well as a vulture?! Wow can I have what you are smoking?

Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2007.11.11 10:21:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Zenst on 11/11/2007 10:25:14
Ok changing at least 3 known things at once that hinder a ships use - madness. Utter madness as whatever ship/module/item you do that too will only end up being re-loved in a later patch.


The hybrid bonus on the EOS is crazy as it is, more so given the numerb of turrets you can fit with links on. Drone bay nerf on space is utter waste given the bandwith changes. Indeed it utterly goes against the grain on what CCP are saying about drones with the dronebay changes.

Will CCP be refunding fitted rigs on ships that get changed like this, be only fair. Not that it effects me, but others it may well do - sentry rigs on EOS atm viable though not best choice but after changes, I see much anger.

Eos was with the link bonus always the worst of the lot, thats why people adapted its use. Now with the changes afoot its like getting all the vent that never went into the carrier changes.

Sorts its bonus's out as the hybrid dmg and the drone bay ones as they stood were wrong and handicapping them to sub cruiser level in use is not the way to fix this ship.

Change the bonus's not the ship - keep life simple.

It should be logicaly drone damage not hybrid bonus's -= if you want to be fair and true to ship designs. there again they should have a different hull, but hey.

Drone damage bonus with changes, fixed drone bay and the dronebay bonus changed to drone speed or range perhaps. I mean it is made by a drone ship company for a race who specialises in drones. Thats like nerfing missiles for caldari - oh wait you did and then had to relove them. That said the whole area of drones is lacking majorly in meta modules/T2 modules etc etc compared to other `specialist` weapons.


So simply put to fix the EOS change its bonus's not the ship.


[ADDED]

PS Dear CCP these EOS changes are akin to going too bed as Amarian and waking up as Minimater - THINK ABOUT IT!!!

Norris Packard
Wings of Redemption
Black Flag Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.11 10:33:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Kai Lae
A. Command mods should not shut off while warping. Simple.

B. Command mods cap usage should be looked at. It is way too high currently.

C. Command ships should have the bonus that they give to command modules boosted, so that there is a noticable difference while using them. At the same time the effect given by the mindlinks should be nerfed to compensate for this change. Cybernetics 5 should not be a unwritten prerequsite for a command pilot.

D. Stacking penalties should be eliminated from command modules. Instead, they should in effect act as a DCU would (for instance) where the one time only bonus is not affected by stacking. This would make them useful regardless how the rest of the gang sets up their ships. The bonus of course would likely need to be adjusted to prevent it from being overpowered. The goal should be that the effect remains the same (taking into account point C), however it would affect all ships in gang equally.

E. Change the bonus of the fleet command ships so that it does not have 1 preferred type of module, but 2 types. AFAIK this was suggested a long time ago when these ships came out but was ignored by CCP. However, it's still an excellent suggestion. For instance, a Eos would bonus both info warfare, and say armored warfare as well. Each racial command would gain another field of specality as well. This would improve the flexibility of these ships greatly.

F. Consider introducing T2 command mods that have a greater effect, but have more difficult fitting.

G. Take a look at the modules themselves. For instance, the sensor integrity module was introduced before ECCM modules were boosted; they originally had the same effect as a backup array. The effect should be increased. In addition, it should provide some protection against other forms of EW as well, not just jamming. Another good question would be to ask why you can only have 3 modules in each area. Originally infowar could boost things like lock time and lock range. This obviously useful module was removed as since command modules work as gang skills, it conflicted with player skills and had little effect. Instead of removing it, the way the module works should be altered so that it gives significant effect, and it should be reintroduced.


Of course, CCP will likely not even look into any of these, so I won't hold my breath, but if they did the above I'd say that the Eos would be fairly respectable, if not hugely popular due to the kind of role it plays.

Oh and wray wray I think the nighthawk complaints are in a different thread :)


I like these ideas, gallente eos having info war and armor links, caldari shields and info war, amarr armor and skrmish, minmatar skirmish and shields. This way they have more options on how to be useful in a gang.

I had been thinking of removing the eos's info war mod and giving the eos the armor gang mods and making a new capacitor gang mod for the damnation. Then each race could have a recon command ship for the info war mods.

Two diffrent approches each would improve the eos but as it stands the eos has no good role where its not outclassed by the other fleet commands at its intended role.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.11.11 13:30:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Jasai Kameron
Originally by: Zendoc
What I don't understand is... Why everyone is complaining about it being a bad solo ship. Not one of the fittings I have seen posted in this thread has been a fleet command setup. I haven't seen a single fitting incorporate gang warfare links. And those of you saying the infowar link modules are useless are just dumb, EW is extremely useful to fleets, I have no idea why you think that's a good argument. And I will state it again, you don't have to fit only info war mods, I fit seige warfare mods on my claymore without getting the seige warfare bonus.

And I'll say what I've said again. If you don't want to fit info war mods on the Eos, you're better flyng something else.

As for me being dumb, let me try to explain it in a simple argument. Let's say I can either fit a mod to boost armor resistances or a mod to boost the effectiveness of EW mods. Now, let's say I'm in a fleet of, I don't know, 50 ships. How many of those are typically jamming ships? 10? And which ships are generally primaried in a fleet battle? EW?

Okay, so if I fit my info war link, one fifth of my fleet are more effective, but only for as long as they survive and, with weak tanks and being primaried, they will die quickly. Once that happens, and for the rest of the fight, my extremely expensive ship, with skills, is doing absolutely nothing on the battlefield.

What if I had fit the armor resist mod? Well, it would boost the survivability of every single ship in my fleet, including the EW ships. They will take longer to die. Heck, every ship on the battlefield will take longer to die and that will last for the whole of the battle. Not only that, but I also boost my own tank with these rigs.

Can you now see the argument behind infowar mods being weak?

Another reason they were weak is that one of them boosted sensor strength, which achieved absolutely nothing when dampeners were flavour of the month. 'course, that looks like being fixed now, which is good, but it's another reason why thoughtful posters viewed the EW links as weak.

Not because they were dumb.



So, what you're saying it 'Boost ECM'?

Awesome.

Good thing they are really, isn't it?

And for all those whining about how the 'racial' ganglink bonus is crap (incidentally, you can fit other races) I have a line of minmatar pilots here who want to talk to you about target painters.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.11.11 13:37:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Zenst
link changes


The link changes are fine and good[skirmish on the Damnation :)], but people didnt adapt its use because ewar links are bad[they arent, they are just more specialized]. They adapted its use because it was a freaking monster. Its balanced with regards to dps for the other commands in its current iteration.



enymphia
Ore Mongers
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2007.11.11 15:32:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Zenst
link changes

Its balanced with regards to dps for the other commands in its current iteration.





yeah but the tank is not. eos tank = suxxor compared to the other fleets(and yes i fly other races fleet commands too).

Jasai Kameron
Hakata Group
Blade.
Posted - 2007.11.11 18:42:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
So, what you're saying it 'Boost ECM'?

Awesome.

Good thing they are really, isn't it?

Yes, I actually mentioned that in the bit you quoted. The changes will make the Eos more useful. However, the question was asked why people viewed infowar links as weak and I answered it. I still think some of the points apply, even with the ECM boost.

Originally by: James Lyrus
And for all those whining about how the 'racial' ganglink bonus is crap (incidentally, you can fit other races) I have a line of minmatar pilots here who want to talk to you about target painters.

I have never understood this argument. Because one thing in the game is broken, it's an excuse for another thing to be broken. It would be okay for the Megathron to have no damage bonus, because the Apoc doesn't? It would be okay for the Falcon to be terrible at jamming, because the Pilgrim is useless?

Mate, I would be delighted to see either target painting improved or replaced with something more useful, just as I'd be delighted to see boosts/redesigns of the Pilgrim and Apoc. However, I'd also like to see a boost to the infowar links. Sorry if that offends. It's merely my opinion.

Gabriel Magnar
Posted - 2007.11.11 22:02:00 - [131]
 

The Eos needs 5 turrets, 7 hi's, 5 meds and same lows (or maybe an extra low but then no bonus to tank).

It needs a static, very large drone bay and it desperately needs better bonuses. Useful gang link bonus for sure. A bonus to tank to make up for the few low slots would be nice as well.

The Eos is dead. Thanks ccp for wasting my training time on it!

Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2007.11.12 02:03:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Zenst
link changes


The link changes are fine and good[skirmish on the Damnation :)], but people didnt adapt its use because ewar links are bad[they arent, they are just more specialized]. They adapted its use because it was a freaking monster. Its balanced with regards to dps for the other commands in its current iteration.





Rolling Eyes I didn't say anything you quoted me in saying.


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