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Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2008.02.12 17:26:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Chauneko Sakyou
well sir, I bow out to your absolute brilliance. you have proven that I cannot possibly be planning to play for longer than a month and thus this ship must pay for itself within a month or less. you have also proven that undercutting your competitors is not a viable market scheme and that sticking your hauler into another mining barge is indeed the way to go to increase your isk/hr. furthermore you have also proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that ccp intends for mineral compression and ore compression to be able to bring goods from high-sec to low/null-sec. I paint tears under my eyes and pour ash on my head in shame.



Lol "a month or less". I love your lack of math skills. Maybe that is why you are so eager to get what is useless in the end. I shouldn't but I will help you. Calc how much mineral you will get if you put all mining capable team members you have in Hulks and have an alt in a battlecruiser (you can train one for this very easily) giving permanent bonuses and other in a hauler. Now calc the minerals you will have using your brilliant ideas. You will see you have actually losses in relation to the previous scheme.

And you cannot even read, which is even more amusing. Who talked about undercutting not being a viable strategy? I told selling manufacturable goods UNDER production price is not. But, oh well, if you can't even understand why 7% bonus is not worth it, this must be WAY beyond you.

Quote:

you don't want mining bonuses because 5-7% might take more than a week to pay off. you do want compression because you want an easy fix to move absurd amounts of minerals around easily without having to go low-sec to compress it first. best of all, you think that merely because something is used a lot, therefore it is right or else it must be replaced with something equivalent. obviously CCP has never had something happen in-game that they didn't intend for, I mean, lots of ships were meant to go 5km/s or faster, right?


With the current mechanics minerals will continue to be transported to low sec through modules. It can't be changed in any further way than it already has been whitout crippling a of of other aspects of the game. Compression in the orca won't change it. It will only introduce a viable alternative that will include high sec miners in the market again, giving them a competitive chance against macroers and mission runners for low ends.

Your (lack of) arguments are all fallacious and ilogic. You don't bring a single valid point to this discussion. Instead you try to guess (because blind guessing is the best you can do, really) what CCP wants instead try showing them what the player base want. Because you know, in the end it is what matters.

Chauneko Sakyou
Posted - 2008.02.12 19:28:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel

Lol "a month or less". I love your lack of math skills. Maybe that is why you are so eager to get what is useless in the end. I shouldn't but I will help you. Calc how much mineral you will get if you put all mining capable team members you have in Hulks and have an alt in a battlecruiser (you can train one for this very easily) giving permanent bonuses and other in a hauler. Now calc the minerals you will have using your brilliant ideas. You will see you have actually losses in relation to the previous scheme.

And you cannot even read, which is even more amusing. Who talked about undercutting not being a viable strategy? I told selling manufacturable goods UNDER production price is not. But, oh well, if you can't even understand why 7% bonus is not worth it, this must be WAY beyond you.


I merely said a month or less as you seem to believe that things taking over a week to pay for themselves shouldn't exist. so I ran the math, let's put it out here, since you aren't willing to. let's assume several variables and get them in the open since running all these numbers for every ship fit and skill setup would be downright annoying. here's my base setup:
2x mackinaws - 2x Ice Harvester II's, 2x ice harvester upg II's
skills - exhumers 3, ice harvesting 5.
implants - yeti BX-2
current cycle time is 313.45 sec for eight blocks of ice.
that puts us at 39.18125sec per block of ice.
now we take 7% off that time.
cycle time becomes 291.5085 sec which is 36.4385625sec per block of ice.

alright, now, let's hold those numbers for a moment, assuming the current value of a block of glacial mass ice is 178,000 isk, it takes 5617.98 blocks of extra ice mined to make the billion that we seem to assume an orca will cost.

now we take our old cycle time(39.18125) and subtract our new cycle time(36.4385625) and come up with 2.7426875sec difference. after that, we divide the new cycle time by the difference and come up with every 13.29 blocks we have mined we get an extra block of ice compared to our old rate. so, to get how many blocks total will it take to have made this a better choice we multiply 13.29 by 5617.98 and come up with 74,662.95 blocks of ice before it has paid for itself(assuming all cycles get the bonus). I can mine that with just three accounts in under two months. easy. if this is supposed to be for corp ops where they regularly have more than three people, it would take even less time.

Insulting me does not make your points any more valid, if someone gets something directly from the source, they are able to put whatever price they want on it. merely because it does not agree with the status quo does not make it an invalid price. all they have to do is make costs, which they are. you may say they aren't, but datacores are a "natural resource" which won't run out. they get them straight from the agent and pay nothing other than a resource which they wouldn't use otherwise for them.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel

With the current mechanics minerals will continue to be transported to low sec through modules. It can't be changed in any further way than it already has been whitout crippling a of of other aspects of the game. Compression in the orca won't change it. It will only introduce a viable alternative that will include high sec miners in the market again, giving them a competitive chance against macroers and mission runners for low ends.


it doesn't mean CCP intends or wants it to be that way, at which point you still have no basis or grounds for your opinion that they will put compression in the orca.

If all I am doing is blind guessing, you are doing no better. I have cited your same blog against you and put the math up. please refute me with facts instead of your meandering insults.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2008.02.12 23:06:00 - [213]
 

Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 12/02/2008 23:06:44
Originally by: Chauneko Sakyou

<First Grade Math applied without the benefit of thinking>



That is an example of utterly flawed logic. For starters, the guy in the Orca, must have mining skills and won't be mining. So you must compare 2 Mackinaws and an Orca, with 3 mackinaws. So it is a command bonus of around 30-40% (and I am exagerating here) in two ships against 100% in one extra ship. Therefore you will actually be better without the orca.

Now you can argue you will use the orca as hauler, thus saving one person. But you will be denying your ships a third to a half of the bonus, moving an extremelly slow capital ship.

So lets put it short. For 3 miners, 3 unbonuses exhumers is better than any combination of exhumer, ORE command ship, and both ships require high mining skills to work and therefore the same specialized chars. Using a char in one of them will forcibly remove one of your miners.

For 4 miners it is pretty much even. For 5 miners you start to gain a little puting one in a command ship. But then you have that 7% bonus over a simple battlecruiser, which does not require a specialized char. You could have 5 miners in exhumers and a non specialized char in a battlecruiser, which will yield considerably more than one miner in a Orca and 4 in exhumers.

Even if everything goes marvelous well, Ice mining is horrible in high sec. There is not enough Ice and it is greatly contended. Ice mining is worse than Plagio and Kernite mining in any condition to tell you the truth. Even in low sec and 0.0.

Now lets imagine we have infinite ice in high sec. Your Mackinaws without command bonuses are able to make maybe 50M/hour per exhumer (this is a very optimistic figure) you will get around 65M/hour with a battlecruiser and command modules and about 67.5M/hour with the orca bonuses. That means 2.5M hour more per mackinaw per hour.

It would take you 200 hours to pay an investment of a billion if you compare a battlecruiser and 2 mackinaws with your Orca and 2 mackinaws. And is still 135M/hour instead of the 150M/hour you would make using 3 mackinaws without ANY command bonuses, so you are actually losing money...

Quote:

Insulting me does not make your points any more valid, if someone gets something directly from the source, they are able to put whatever price they want on it. merely because it does not agree with the status quo does not make it an invalid price. all they have to do is make costs, which they are. you may say they aren't, but datacores are a "natural resource" which won't run out. they get them straight from the agent and pay nothing other than a resource which they wouldn't use otherwise for them.


You started with the ad hominem arguments. I am merelly following your lead. You may enjoy the trip.

And the reasoning of this last quote is priceless. If you have 1000 units of trit what you will do with them? Sell to buy order for 2 ISK each making 2000 ISK, or build a ship that requires 1000 units of trit and sell it by 1000 ISK? That alone shows how incapable of arguing about this (or any other) issue you are...

Quote:
t doesn't mean CCP intends or wants it to be that way, at which point you still have no basis or grounds for your opinion that they will put compression in the orca.

If all I am doing is blind guessing, you are doing no better. I have cited your same blog against you and put the math up. please refute me with facts instead of your meandering insults.


That is the difference between you and me. I am stating the compression in high sec is a good thing and should be implemented. I am showing that otherwise we will have just another useless ship in this game and the permanence of the methods currently used to transport low ends to null sec to the cost of the miner profession. I additionally argue that the devs introduced mineral comrpession as a viable and official alternative to module compression and if that is the case it should be used to

Charyb
QUANT Offshore Holding Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2008.02.12 23:08:00 - [214]
 

Alright, devil's advocate.

Let's assume that you get that extra 5% yield over time bonus.
Let's assume that you find a belt with infinite amount of raw ore.
Let's assume this ship will cost about one billion isk to build.
Let's assume that with a normal command ship / BC giving the bonus, you can mine a 3 million isk worth of ore in 10 minutes.

(I'm being generous)

5% greater yield equates to 21,000 isk / min increase.
That's 793 man hours of work to recover the cost of the ship.
That's 33 man days of non-stop mining, never switching roids, never spending time to haul.

I'd say for your AVERAGE player who mines an average of 1 hour day over their entire play period, this would have a ROI of about two years.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2008.02.12 23:12:00 - [215]
 

fullfill this whole. Mineral compression as never EVER used to muve high ends to empire. Nobody compresses Zydrine and Megacyte...

You on the other hand, try to guess what the devs "want" and use this as your sole flawed argument, acting as a brownnose.

Chauneko Sakyou
Posted - 2008.02.13 02:43:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Chauneko Sakyou on 13/02/2008 02:54:15
alright bobo the troll, stupid wins. I give up. you want to think you know what's best. go right ahead, keep trolling. I'm done.

(btw, you were the first to throw an insult.)

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2008.02.13 04:21:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Chauneko Sakyou
well sir,I bow out to your absolute brilliance.


Quote:
you do want compression because you want an easy fix...


These are called ad hominem arguments, the first one being an obvious irony. Aside from being completely unecessary and bringing no objective point whatsoever into a discussion, they are also ofensive.

As everything you said in this thread, the claim that I started to throw ofences at you first is false. The one trolling is you. By the lack of content of your posts it is obvious.

Now please, could you leave the discussion to people that actually have some objective feedback to give?

Mei Jinn
Posted - 2008.02.13 09:43:00 - [218]
 

(for the Devs if they are reading this thread).
Please think about giving the Orca 9 High slots,this way it has extra slots for fitting Large shield reppers as well as fitting tractor and Mining Command Mods.
In addition another idea would be to allow this and the Rorqual the ability to plug Slot 10 Mindlinks into the actual ship and not just the pilots head.
In this way it would be possible to have both Mining and Shield /Armor Tank .
thanks

grimda
Caldari
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company
deadspace society
Posted - 2008.02.13 16:20:00 - [219]
 

Perhaps we've forgotten ..... but i'd like something COOL as well. I want to be able to MINE in an orca. If it can't leave hi-sec or jump and wallows like a whale, fine.


Giveme a capital MINING ship. Nine strippers and a cargo hold from heck.

F the macroers by requiring the using character to be in a corporation that is not NPC. Give us the love we deserve.

Fulbert
Gallente
Posted - 2008.02.13 16:56:00 - [220]
 

Edited by: Fulbert on 13/02/2008 16:59:09
a solo pown mobile will really depreciate mining barges/exhumers, and their pilots.

Thats exactly why the industrial cap ship was designed as a logistic/squad boost ship and not a mining ship... They didn't create a giant barge 6 months ago, i don't know why they should create one now :-D

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2008.02.14 03:46:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Charyb
Alright, devil's advocate.
[snip]
5% greater yield equates to 21,000 isk / min increase.
That's 793 man hours of work to recover the cost of the ship.
That's 33 man days of non-stop mining, never switching roids, never spending time to haul.


You are also assuming that someone is going to get the Orca and fly it solo.

If you enter a belt with two other people, doesn't that reduce the individually contributed time to 11 days of effort?

If you enter a system as a fleet with 10 other people, doesn't that reduce the individually contributed time to 3 days of effort?

Who is going to fly a capital ship solo?


grimda
Caldari
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company
deadspace society
Posted - 2008.02.14 05:16:00 - [222]
 

So what? Maybe we need a way to compete with eht ISK farmers that now dominate the mineral markets?

Give me CAPITAL STRIP MINERS

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2008.02.14 16:03:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn

You are also assuming that someone is going to get the Orca and fly it solo.

If you enter a belt with two other people, doesn't that reduce the individually contributed time to 11 days of effort?

If you enter a system as a fleet with 10 other people, doesn't that reduce the individually contributed time to 3 days of effort?

Who is going to fly a capital ship solo?




No, I think you misunderstand the concept of manhours. No matter how many people are there, the number of man hours needed to return the investment remain the same.

If all we're talking about it a big command ship, you'd be much better off spending the money from the orca on another account for the guy currently sitting in a Battlecruiser to mine in a hulk.

If it significantly adds to the logistical aspects of a mining fleet, like adding high-sec compression, then it would have a much higher value.


Let me put it this way, if the price difference between a hulk and a covetor was 3 billion isk (for an arbitrary 15% yield difference) would the hulk be as prevalent?

dakeann
Amarr
Maniacal Miners INC
Cosmic Maniacs
Posted - 2008.02.16 15:57:00 - [224]
 

so is there any news from the devs lately Question

Per Bastet
Amarr
B.O.O.M
Obsidian Mining Coalition
Posted - 2008.02.17 00:33:00 - [225]
 

So what do the Devs have planned for this?

Artmedis Valben
Gallente
Posted - 2008.02.19 13:36:00 - [226]
 

As said before

It should have some of the qualities of the Rorqual without being as efficient.
It definately should have better mining link bonus than BCs/CSs: at least extra +3% per level
It should have tractor bonus and shield repper bonus, be able to tank any high sec NPC spawn.
Limited compression ability would be cool: fewer lines or longer cycle than the Rorqual perhaps.
Ability to field drones?
Ability to store a few hours worth of mining from a gang of maxed Hulks/Mackinaws?

Definately not a mining platform.

Kaaii
Caldari
Kaaii-Net Research Labs
KAAII-NET
Posted - 2008.02.19 13:43:00 - [227]
 



However its fielded, there should be only one BPO, and I should get it...ugh



Estar Tarns
Origin.
Posted - 2008.02.20 21:21:00 - [228]
 

Haven't read all the replies to this, but still giving my thought on this.

Rorqual: Capital 0.0 mining nexus.

Orca: High-Sec mining support platform?

Here's my idea of a high-sec and avagerage corp mining support ship.

Mining op, around 10 pilots in a gang.
Deploy the Orca in the middle of the astroid field.
Orca gives some good mining bonuses.
Let the miners mine into their usual jet-can.
Orca trac-beam the cans to itself.
Orca can fill up it's cargo first, before the haulers are put to work.
Haulers got a central point of operation to haul back to a station.
When about to finish up, the orca, haulers and miners should be full and head back to a station. (maybe the astroid field got a higher chance of depleting before everybody is full?)

With somthing like this, it's not a cap ship, gives the required bonuses, using trac-beams effectivly and not a overkill mining platform.
And when the ore is refined, the orca takes it all and haul it back to a HQ, if needed

TimmyJB
Posted - 2008.02.28 13:27:00 - [229]
 

I hope they add the compression,id be willing to deal with the training. I dont expect this ship to be like the low sec version but with compression just seems it would be more worth the time buying this ship.

I dont mean to start any flameing stuff its just id like something to add to my Characters mining career. Plus if this ship does make it in,it will be another reason to keep playing :)

Maor Raor
Posted - 2008.03.04 01:20:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: Evitcidda
Originally by: Xaildaine
Seriously...
An empire mining cap ship seams a bit extreem.

All we want is Larger anchorable cans and somewhere we can anchor them..


Is that so hard?


This



Yeah .. That

W3370Pi4
Lamb Federation Navy
Posted - 2008.03.04 05:20:00 - [231]
 

dont complain when minerals price's go down again .

if they find time to devellop a small rorqual why not some sort of small Freighter to fill the gap between Transport ship and Freigters :S

Sikozu Prioris
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company
Syndicate.
Posted - 2008.03.04 14:36:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Artmedis Valben
...stuff...
Ability to store a few hours worth of mining from a gang of maxed Hulks/Mackinaws?

Definately not a mining platform.



Lol a hour of mining in a hulk, that is maxed out, is around 150,000m3. A few hours of a gang of hulks is MORE THAN A FREIGHTER worth. LOL please think before posting. Even the rorqual with compression stuggles in long mining ops to store everything without offloading.

Ford Hakata
Hakata Group
Blade.
Posted - 2008.03.05 22:46:00 - [233]
 

What I'd love to see is that the Rorqual's "pincher" (seen open when it's transformed to industrial mode) is used to connect the Rorq to another ship or POS module for added bonuses or storage or perhaps something even cooler. ugh

Bo Kantrel
Gallente
Posted - 2008.03.05 23:03:00 - [234]
 

Edited by: Bo Kantrel on 05/03/2008 23:03:21
Maybe the Orca will appear in the Trinity 1.1 patch??

Chony
Caldari
Dunder Mifflin Paper Co.
Posted - 2008.03.06 12:18:00 - [235]
 

Edited by: Chony on 06/03/2008 12:18:35
Man i love the idea of orca, it will just lower the prices of trit, pyerite, mex, and in turn raise the price of all 0.0 minerals making 0.0 mining even more profitable but it will keep empire mining the same isk per hour as it is now :)

KAELA MENSHA
Posted - 2008.03.10 11:40:00 - [236]
 

Give it a scan probe bonus so. So it's useful for finding and mining grav sites. To often you find a good site and no station in system/ This could be the answerSmile

Lyvanna Kitaen
Minmatar
Noonday Sun Corp
Posted - 2008.03.11 00:00:00 - [237]
 

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it in this thread or not, but a ship maintenence bay would be great for hauling rigged ships in empire. As it stands now, moving rigged ships around is a pain since you have to actually fly them individually to their destination. I would love to be able to load up a couple of hulks and a hauler and move them all at once to a system to do a mining op.

Bron ves
Ves Mining Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.03.11 02:37:00 - [238]
 

Indeed that is a good point Lyvanna. Would be a very useful tool.

Pizi
Gallente
Posted - 2008.03.11 14:28:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Bo Kantrel
Edited by: Bo Kantrel on 05/03/2008 23:03:21
Maybe the Orca will appear in the Trinity 1.1 patch??


no but in the AT5 eve TV broadcast they said it will come with the faction war expansion
so around sommer

PoweredByVelleity
Posted - 2008.03.11 18:53:00 - [240]
 

I would like to see the Orca be a platform for mining in systems with no stations. Large ore-specific cargo bay/compression/whatever.

And a 40-60km tractor range. It might also be good for salvaging then, if it has enough high slots.


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