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Roth
Posted - 2008.01.22 09:00:00 - [181]
 

Also... 4 additional drones per advanced interfacing skill level...

my 2 cents worth is meant to be a fabulously mediocre mining foreman's dream come true.
It doesn't do anything unbalancingly well but quells the unhappy masses of people screaming for new content! it has to handle like a slug or else flying an industrial will become obsolete. it can help gang, but is kinda useless on it's own... inline with the rorq, has a few little bonuses that the rorq doesn't have but has much greater limitations with cpu and powergrid to nulify any real strength....

I hope the idea expands thought in this forum rather than getting picked apart one line at a time. It's easy to find fault with me, I'm just a self proclaimed idiot, so before ya pick it apart one line at a time put as much thought into it as I did... took me weeks to put together the above ideas.

IMHO Being able to have ships dock to you is a capital thing that shouldn't be touched in empire. (balance)

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2008.01.27 06:27:00 - [182]
 

Edited by: Mara Rinn on 28/01/2008 10:59:20
My wish list for a hisec mining platform would be:

  1. Gang boost bonuses

  2. Huge cargo hold

  3. Bonuses to scanners

  4. Bonuses to remote shield repairers

  5. Bonuses to range/power of scramblers and webifiers

  6. Fast targetting time

  7. In-space refining



The main risks in hisec space are can poppers. We can't attack them when they arrive, only when they steal from our cans. Thus the platform should either be able to deal with this threat through jammers and scramblers with very fast targetting itself, or the mining platform should provide target acquisition bonuses to all craft in the fleet.

In order to help rookie pilots take part in fleet activities, it would also be nice for the platform to provide the means to support pilots in mining frigates who are not geared for fending off 0.5 rats. Bonuses to the range of remote shield repairers (as per the Osprey, for example) would be most welcome.

Also, it would be nice to add some features to make the Orca attractive to losec operations too. Perhaps give it survey/scanner/probe bonuses - have the orca function like an exploration rig in real life oil mining. It can be part of an advance survey party (perhaps the orca provides bonuses to the ships doing the survey, rather than doing surveying itself).

We wouldn't need compression since we just haul junk out in industrials anyway. What happens in hisec mining is usually - mine into a can, fend of can popper, then get the haulers to pick up the ore from the cans and drag it back to base, refine it, then package up the refined good to be sold on the market, or shipped off to the folks building the Death Star (or whatever other secret project folks are working on).

I don't see that limiting ownership of these kinds of vessels to player corporations will prevent macrominers from using them. They'd just set up their own corporation, or work through someone else's corporation. Anything a "legitimate" player can do, an ISK seller can do too.

To me, the role of a purpose-built hisec mining support platform would be to boost the abilities of the mining foreman, provide support for rookie players, and provide some utility to losec mining operations that a Rorqual doesn't.

Madness0906
Posted - 2008.01.29 15:40:00 - [183]
 

My wishes would be:

1. Mining bonus with mining link and link mods to stack up to 33%.
2. Small compressor 1:10/20 for high sec ores and 1:2/5 for low sec.
3. Tractor beams that span the belt.
4. No motion possible during compressing.
5. Corp hanger. 40.000m3
6. 100.000m3 cargo hold.
7. Scanning mod that displays a map of the belt and indicates with coloring density and ore types, with added chart telling the opperator the amount of each ore. (it would be nice to make a small scout that can use this mod aswell.)


I calculated a fleet of 10 perfect hulks (no drones) gets to 15470 m3/min and with the bonus to 20575 m3/min.
At a compression rate of 1:10 would result in a hauling load of 2057.5 m3/min, with these lower rates less experienced members can haul and the more experienced players can stay in there mining ships.
The 33% mining bonus makes it more then suited for beginning industrial corps with 3/5 hulks, and a great asset to corps with +5 hulks.

This tool would make the life of a high sec carebear corp ceo a lot less complicated and would give these players a chance to use tools that where only available to massive low sec/0.0 corps.

Garat Mant
Moons of Pluto
Space Exploration and Logistic Services
Posted - 2008.01.30 01:41:00 - [184]
 

My corp and I have discussed this, and our demands are simple:

Make a 4th exhumer, a mining command hulk. With an extra high slot and the ability to fit (and bonus) a command link.

Easy!

-G

Phersephone
Caldari
Stormlord Battleforce
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2008.01.30 08:38:00 - [185]
 

Is this still just a wish list or are we actually getting and orca?

Darth Felin
Posted - 2008.01.30 10:14:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Phersephone
Is this still just a wish list or are we actually getting and orca?


Devs stated that Orca is currently under development, so we will get Orca and at the same time it is the wishlist for its capabilities.

Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
Posted - 2008.01.30 22:27:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Madness0906
My wishes would be:

1. Mining bonus with mining link and link mods to stack up to 33%.
2. Small compressor 1:10/20 for high sec ores and 1:2/5 for low sec.
3. Tractor beams that span the belt.
4. No motion possible during compressing.
5. Corp hanger. 40.000m3
6. 100.000m3 cargo hold.
7. Scanning mod that displays a map of the belt and indicates with coloring density and ore types, with added chart telling the opperator the amount of each ore. (it would be nice to make a small scout that can use this mod aswell.)


I calculated a fleet of 10 perfect hulks (no drones) gets to 15470 m3/min and with the bonus to 20575 m3/min.
At a compression rate of 1:10 would result in a hauling load of 2057.5 m3/min, with these lower rates less experienced members can haul and the more experienced players can stay in there mining ships.
The 33% mining bonus makes it more then suited for beginning industrial corps with 3/5 hulks, and a great asset to corps with +5 hulks.

This tool would make the life of a high sec carebear corp ceo a lot less complicated and would give these players a chance to use tools that where only available to massive low sec/0.0 corps.


Are you brain damaged? Those stats are BETTER than a rorqual.

xena zena
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2008.02.01 18:05:00 - [188]
 

two ships instead of 1

1: ORE faction command ship, 3% bonus to mining links, has same skill requirements as other command ships, except instead of cruiser V it requires mining barge V.

2: ORE faction capital ship non-jump drive capable (like freighters) that is a purely compression boat. Freighter with compression lines essentially. Similar mass, to a freighter, similar cargo capacity to a jump freighter. Similar cost and skill requirements to a rorqual. Can fit capital tractors and has the range bonuses of a rorqual. No command link bonuses or ability to use command links.


Zirconium Blade
Ass Pounding Space Monkeys
Posted - 2008.02.01 20:03:00 - [189]
 

I would like to see (in order of importance:
Tractor Range and Speed bonus (3x would be nice)
Reasonable mining bonus.
Two or three can's worth of cargo hold

I dont mind if it aligns and warps slowly and has very limited defense.

Mei Jinn
Posted - 2008.02.05 19:54:00 - [190]
 

I would personally like to see a new O.R.E generation of Tactical mining Warfare links,mainly shield recharge and shield capacity but it could be stretched to armor and hull,for use solely on the Orca and Rorqual.
Currently T2 barges are a joke in terms of tank,adding shield cap and recharge bonuses would be a good step in the right direction,of buffing mining ops.
Also more high slots and Shield transfer ability wouldn't hurt as well.

Atiana Obaani
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.02.06 00:54:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: xena zena
two ships instead of 1

1: ORE faction command ship, 3% bonus to mining links, has same skill requirements as other command ships, except instead of cruiser V it requires mining barge V.

2: ORE faction capital ship non-jump drive capable (like freighters) that is a purely compression boat. Freighter with compression lines essentially. Similar mass, to a freighter, similar cargo capacity to a jump freighter. Similar cost and skill requirements to a rorqual. Can fit capital tractors and has the range bonuses of a rorqual. No command link bonuses or ability to use command links.




This. Especially #1. LOOOOONG overdue.

gordon861
Minmatar
PROGENITOR CORPORATION
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.02.06 12:31:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Mei Jinn
I would personally like to see a new O.R.E generation of Tactical mining Warfare links,mainly shield recharge and shield capacity but it could be stretched to armor and hull,for use solely on the Orca and Rorqual.
Currently T2 barges are a joke in terms of tank,adding shield cap and recharge bonuses would be a good step in the right direction,of buffing mining ops.
Also more high slots and Shield transfer ability wouldn't hurt as well.

If your T2 barges are being shot at on a mining op, and need these links, you are doing something wrong. If your Hulks can't tank the rats drop a Battleship in there first to take the aggro and then your barges and haulers will all be safe for ever.

In empire your drones should be able to kill any rats before they become a worry to your miners.

Dr Remould
Posted - 2008.02.07 13:21:00 - [193]
 

My wish list...
200,000 to 300,000 cargo
2 high slots (no turrets or missiles)
bonus for small tractorbeams (25km-30km)
mining foreman bonus
ore scanner bonus
moves as slowly as a slow thing with a hang-over (20m/s?)
looks like Battersy Powerstation (smoking chimney stacks etc)
I think this would serve as a half way ship between Rorqual and Hulk, kind of a Freighter meets Hulk.
Cost around 600-700million ISK
otherwise may as well get a freighter....

Mei Jinn
Posted - 2008.02.07 14:55:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: gordon861
Originally by: Mei Jinn
I would personally like to see a new O.R.E generation of Tactical mining Warfare links,mainly shield recharge and shield capacity but it could be stretched to armor and hull,for use solely on the Orca and Rorqual.
Currently T2 barges are a joke in terms of tank,adding shield cap and recharge bonuses would be a good step in the right direction,of buffing mining ops.
Also more high slots and Shield transfer ability wouldn't hurt as well.

If your T2 barges are being shot at on a mining op, and need these links, you are doing something wrong. If your Hulks can't tank the rats drop a Battleship in there first to take the aggro and then your barges and haulers will all be safe for ever.

In empire your drones should be able to kill any rats before they become a worry to your miners.


I think you misunderstand me..i'm talking mainly of High sec and suicide bombing for isk,seeing as its getting more popular.
Having an Orca in high sec is a red flag to these kinds of players hence the need for a boost to def,seeing as CCP wont buff the CPU on these boats.

Anders Offwidth
Merk Werk Syndicate
Posted - 2008.02.08 04:34:00 - [195]
 

Here's a design proposal, based on everyone else's great ideas, with a few of my own.

Using advanced scanner electronics, the ORE Orca is capable of supporting mining fleets in all aspects of operation: prospecting, defense, ore extraction, and storage. Constructed with special nanomesh bulkheads, a stationary Orca is capable of cramming huge amounts of ore into its hold, but only with a strong microgravity field to hold the fragile mesh in place under the load.

Ship Features:

- Storage mode w/"Storage Field Generator"
Turns ship into giant freighter-sized jetcan. Because gaining all that extra storage space requires exposing some internal structure to vacuum, the Orca is rendered immobile when entering "storage mode". Takes large amount of energy (100% of base cap.) to activate and consumes ice-product fuel to maintain the storage field. Exiting storage mode automatically jetcans ore in excess of the normal cargo area, but destruction of the ship causes stored cargo to be destroyed in turn due to the sudden loss of the protective field--no massive drops of ore.

- Exploration bonus w/"Prospector Probe Array"
Assuming more belts become exploration content, it'd be nice to help find them. Currently, high-sec Omber/Kernite belts are not that profitable for the time and probe cost. The Orca acts like a permanent Gravimetric Quest Probe, reducing probing costs. Fleet up with a scanning ship (Heron, Buzzard, etc.), warp to where the exploration pilot wants a probe dropped, and park the Orca. Could also provide small gang probe resolution bonuses. Activation reduces Orca's speed to 0--no roving probes.

- No hardpoints
It's not a mining ship, it's a mining support ship

- Slots: 6 high, 5 med, 4 low
Highs: "Storage Field Generator", Mining Foreman Link x3, Sm. Tractor Beam x2
Meds: Command Processor x2, Survey Scanner, "Prospector Probe Array"/Cargo Scanner/Ship Scanner/Remote Sensor Booster/Target Painter/cap modules/shield tank
Lows: CPR/PDS/Damage Control/Warp Core Stabs/armor tank

- Tiny corp hangar
Enough room for a few mining laser crystals and extra drones for the gang

- Drone bay w/space for 25 light drones, 25MB/s bandwidth
Self-defense and gang defense, more drones for medium-length deployments

- Bonus to drone control radius
Orca pilot can aid in defense of any miner in the belt

- Bonus to Mining Foreman link effectiveness + reduced Command Processor CPU usage

- Bonus to tractor beam range and speed
Gather jetcans across the belt

- Bonus to survey, cargo, and ship scanner range
Allow Orca pilot to coordinate targeting of asteroids across the belt, monitor jetcans as they fill up, and scan down potential ore thieves.

- Bonus to fleet scan resolution
Improves targeting time vs. asteroids and ore thieves

- Built-in passive targeting system
For targeting and scanning potential ore thieves

- 6 max locked targets

- Slow and ungainly, but with decent shield/armor

New UI Features:

- Allow asteroid targets to be flagged to the fleet from the survey window
- Assigning targets to wings/squads would be extra cool

Anders Offwidth
Merk Werk Syndicate
Posted - 2008.02.08 04:36:00 - [196]
 

Here's how the Orca could address some concerns with high-sec mining:

Give mining op commander something to do

- Assign mining targets using fleet tools and survey scanner
- Defend mates with longer-range drones
- Gather jetcans
- Identify potential pirate threats
- Help explore for belts

Help defend gang against ore thieves

- Give faster targeting time to protection ships
- Scan potential ore thieves quickly and from afar, without their knowledge, using passive targeting system

Discourage attacks by suicide gankers

- No stored ore drops from an Orca destroyed in storage mode, greatly reducing profit for pirates, but still leaving motivation for war opponents to attack and deny the ore, and for Orca owners to defend

Discourage use of Orca by macro-miners

These are only minor inconveniences that reduce the Orca's utility for macro-miners, but their implementation requires no game mechanics changes.

- Corp hangar usage requires corp role, not available in NPC corps
- Dependence on fuel for storage mode requires some operator attention

Do not compete with Rorqual for 0.0 usage

- No ore compression
- No clone vat bay
- No jump drive
- No ship maintenance bay
- No drone combat bonuses, only small drones

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2008.02.08 20:45:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Anders Offwidth

Do not compete with Rorqual for 0.0 usage

- No ore compression
- No clone vat bay
- No jump drive
- No ship maintenance bay
- No drone combat bonuses, only small drones



As long as it has no jump drive it will NEVER compete with the Rorqual for 0.0 usage. So everything else is irrelevant. I strongly defend that this ship should be able to compress ore. Otherwise it will be completely useless.

Marcus Tedric
Gallente
Tedric Enterprises
Crimson Steel Empire
Posted - 2008.02.09 10:34:00 - [198]
 

...

And I'd be completely stunned if the Dev's introduce Ore Compression to High Sec.Shocked

Want Ore Compression - load Frighter and take it to Rorqual in LoSec - we can't have it too easy. It's supposed to be a reasonable simulation after all.Smile

Chauneko Sakyou
Posted - 2008.02.09 20:04:00 - [199]
 

alright, so basically what we're looking at is this:

what high-sec group-mining ops need:
1. a ship with mining command bonuses.

what high-sec group-mining ops want:
1. a decent cargohold.
2. tractors that reach a decent distance.
3. mayhaps some scanning abilities or somesuch.
4. (never going to happen) ore compression.

what ccp would probably give us:
1. a ship with mining bonuses.
2. a ship with the marauder tractor bonus maybe?
3. scanning bonuses when they get around to revamping the fleet interface a bit more.
4. a 45k m/3 cargohold (probably once it's fully expanded Neutral)

what ccp will never give us:
1. ore compression high-sec. (they purposefully worked to stop people from compressing ore high-sec Mad)

Gillian Haas
Posted - 2008.02.09 22:20:00 - [200]
 

This came to me in a dream.

Make the orca a compliment to the rorqual.

As it stands, the rorqual can jump around lowsec/0.0 space all alone, that is to say the mining barges need to move normally to keep up with it. How about the orca becomes a ship that can jump bridge mining barges.
It would also be nice if it had a bonus to probing out grav sites (or a seperate belt scanning mechanism).

Marcus Tedric
Gallente
Tedric Enterprises
Crimson Steel Empire
Posted - 2008.02.10 10:38:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Gillian Haas
This came to me in a dream.

Make the orca a compliment to the rorqual.

As it stands, the rorqual can jump around lowsec/0.0 space all alone, that is to say the mining barges need to move normally to keep up with it. How about the orca becomes a ship that can jump bridge mining barges.
It would also be nice if it had a bonus to probing out grav sites (or a seperate belt scanning mechanism).


The Rorqual carries up to 5 x Covetors/Hulks - or 3 + a large hauler.... It's the pilots that have to keep up!

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2008.02.11 06:17:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Chauneko Sakyou
alright, so basically what we're looking at is this:

what high-sec group-mining ops need:
1. a ship with mining command bonuses.




1 already exists. It is called Battlecruiser. you can place mining command modules in them and even use mindlinks in your chars while doing it. And they can tank very well as well.

Quote:

what high-sec group-mining ops want:
1. a decent cargohold.
2. tractors that reach a decent distance.
3. mayhaps some scanning abilities or somesuch.
4. (never going to happen) ore compression.

what ccp would probably give us:
1. a ship with mining bonuses.
2. a ship with the marauder tractor bonus maybe?
3. scanning bonuses when they get around to revamping the fleet interface a bit more.
4. a 45k m/3 cargohold (probably once it's fully expanded Neutral)




My iteron Mark 5 with full cargo expanders and rigs has a 38 k cargohold. 49k if I fill it with giant secure containers. Why would I need a special ship for this?

Tractor bonus are nice, but then again mostly irrelevant if you don't have a ridiculous amount of space. Space that only compression can give you.

So basically, there is no role, that cannot be equally well fullfilled by much cheaper ships for the Orca if it does not have compression.

Quote:

what ccp will never give us:
1. ore compression high-sec. (they purposefully worked to stop people from compressing ore high-sec Mad)


No they didn't. They TRIED to make modules more difficult to use for compression. And failed... Sorry, but if you think it is difficult to compress minerals in high sec now you are clueless.

They did it BECAUSE they had introduced ore compression and wanted this method to be used as the standard way of transporting high volume of minerals. It is clearly stated in Chronotis' Blog.

So, by all means lets fully introduce this form of compression, which is the intended official way of doing it, in high sec.

gordon861
Minmatar
PROGENITOR CORPORATION
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.02.11 13:31:00 - [203]
 

In high sec I'd much rather have mineral compression instead of ore compression.

1. Make the alloys smaller.
2. Put BPOs for them on the market.
3. We can then mix/match all the minerals we want to move around as required.

Also when people ask for a Mining Command Ship they mean a ship that is actually designed for this purpose with bonuses per level to mining links when used(in the same way the other Command Ships work).

It has been a long time since any DEV replies on this thread and it's starting to go around in circles again.

A new DEV response would be good, or are we just wasting our time with this discussion?

Chauneko Sakyou
Posted - 2008.02.11 16:16:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Chauneko Sakyou
alright, so basically what we're looking at is this:

what high-sec group-mining ops need:
1. a ship with mining command bonuses.




1 already exists. It is called Battlecruiser. you can place mining command modules in them and even use mindlinks in your chars while doing it. And they can tank very well as well.


A quick perusal will show that there are currently no command ships or battlecruisers that have bonuses to mining command modules.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Chauneko Sakyou

what high-sec group-mining ops want:
1. a decent cargohold.
2. tractors that reach a decent distance.
3. mayhaps some scanning abilities or somesuch.
4. (never going to happen) ore compression.

what ccp would probably give us:
1. a ship with mining bonuses.
2. a ship with the marauder tractor bonus maybe?
3. scanning bonuses when they get around to revamping the fleet interface a bit more.
4. a 45k m/3 cargohold (probably once it's fully expanded Neutral)




My iteron Mark 5 with full cargo expanders and rigs has a 38 k cargohold. 49k if I fill it with giant secure containers. Why would I need a special ship for this?

Tractor bonus are nice, but then again mostly irrelevant if you don't have a ridiculous amount of space. Space that only compression can give you.

So basically, there is no role, that cannot be equally well fullfilled by much cheaper ships for the Orca if it does not have compression.


as far as the cargo size goes, I was in part poking fun at ccp. my apologies that I did not make this evident enough for you.

as far as cheaper ships doing it better, I believe ccp has a decent track record of doing such things.

the other point here is, in order for the cheaper ships to do it all better, you need multiple pilots. this way you would only need one.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Chauneko Sakyou

what ccp will never give us:
1. ore compression high-sec. (they purposefully worked to stop people from compressing ore high-sec Mad)


No they didn't. They TRIED to make modules more difficult to use for compression. And failed... Sorry, but if you think it is difficult to compress minerals in high sec now you are clueless.

They did it BECAUSE they had introduced ore compression and wanted this method to be used as the standard way of transporting high volume of minerals. It is clearly stated in Chronotis' Blog.

So, by all means lets fully introduce this form of compression, which is the intended official way of doing it, in high sec.

alright, you get one of those ice or ore compression blueprints to work high-sec, I'll pay you some relatively obscene amount of money. when I looked in-game though, the BP's say: "Note: This blueprint can only be used with the Rorqual Capital Industrial Ship assembly lines." that is not to say that we don't still have people making modules that compress the minerals down to take up a lot less space than they otherwise would, but, it does mean that you cannot compress ice or ore high-sec.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2008.02.11 19:07:00 - [205]
 

Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 11/02/2008 19:08:26
Originally by: Chauneko Sakyou

A quick perusal will show that there are currently no command ships or battlecruisers that have bonuses to mining command modules.



No there is not. But ship bonuses in command modules are well known to be irrelevant. That is the case with all the command ships. At level 5 skill in Command Ships they give a grand total of 15% over the command module bonus, which even with a mind link is less than 100%. So at the very best a ship with especific mining command bonuses would give 5-7% more bonus than any unbonused battlecruiser.

Quote:

as far as the cargo size goes, I was in part poking fun at ccp. my apologies that I did not make this evident enough for you.

as far as cheaper ships doing it better, I believe ccp has a decent track record of doing such things.

the other point here is, in order for the cheaper ships to do it all better, you need multiple pilots. this way you would only need one.



Well, as you cannot take the ship from the sector to keep the bonus active it is better to have more than one. A hauler to keep coming and going and a command ship to stay...

Quote:

alright, you get one of those ice or ore compression blueprints to work high-sec, I'll pay you some relatively obscene amount of money. when I looked in-game though, the BP's say: "Note: This blueprint can only be used with the Rorqual Capital Industrial Ship assembly lines." that is not to say that we don't still have people making modules that compress the minerals down to take up a lot less space than they otherwise would, but, it does mean that you cannot compress ice or ore high-sec.


You fail to understand what I am saying. I said MINERAL compression still exists - the very thing ccp didn't want to happen. And it is WAY more used than ore compression, CCP intended way of compressing raw materials, exactly because ore compression is not allowed in high sec.

If you don't believe me just calc the compression a Jumpgate Geenrator still give you. It used to be 400+ to 1, but it is still 40+ to 1 after the nerf. Far more than any ore compression can give you. And see, it DOES work in high sec.

Chauneko Sakyou
Posted - 2008.02.11 19:44:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel


No there is not. But ship bonuses in command modules are well known to be irrelevant. That is the case with all the command ships. At level 5 skill in Command Ships they give a grand total of 15% over the command module bonus, which even with a mind link is less than 100%. So at the very best a ship with especific mining command bonuses would give 5-7% more bonus than any unbonused battlecruiser.



some people want that 5-7%. I am one of them.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel

Well, as you cannot take the ship from the sector to keep the bonus active it is better to have more than one. A hauler to keep coming and going and a command ship to stay...



point still stands. this way you only need one pilot. it's up to personal discretion as to whether it would be better or not if the ship is not made to be overwhelming in its attributes.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Chauneko Sakyou

alright, you get one of those ice or ore compression blueprints to work high-sec, I'll pay you some relatively obscene amount of money. when I looked in-game though, the BP's say: "Note: This blueprint can only be used with the Rorqual Capital Industrial Ship assembly lines." that is not to say that we don't still have people making modules that compress the minerals down to take up a lot less space than they otherwise would, but, it does mean that you cannot compress ice or ore high-sec.


You fail to understand what I am saying. I said MINERAL compression still exists - the very thing ccp didn't want to happen. And it is WAY more used than ore compression, CCP intended way of compressing raw materials, exactly because ore compression is not allowed in high sec.

If you don't believe me just calc the compression a Jumpgate Geenrator still give you. It used to be 400+ to 1, but it is still 40+ to 1 after the nerf. Far more than any ore compression can give you. And see, it DOES work in high sec.

really, I don't fail. read the bold part again. the fact is still that mineral compression through manufactured goods was nerfed by ccp as a direct intent. it also still stands that ore and ice compression BP's do not work high-sec.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2008.02.11 22:28:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Chauneko Sakyou

some people want that 5-7%. I am one of them.



And some people sell T2 without factoring datacore costs because they have R&D agents and think their datacores are for free. Others do the same with minerals.

The fact that there are people that want to spend lots of ISK to have 5-7% more bonus in command bonuses in a otherwise useless ship, does not mean it is a good idea...

Quote:

point still stands. this way you only need one pilot. it's up to personal discretion as to whether it would be better or not if the ship is not made to be overwhelming in its attributes.



Again, no objective reason whatsoever given. Just "I want it". As I said both roles are contradictory, unless you can compress ores into your cargo and sit there for a long time, like the rorqual. Cargo Space is useless otherwise. So are capital tractors.

Quote:

really, I don't fail. read the bold part again. the fact is still that mineral compression through manufactured goods was nerfed by ccp as a direct intent. it also still stands that ore and ice compression BP's do not work high-sec.


Really you do. And besides failing you avoid the point. Worse you put it backwards. Mineral compression was nerfed BECAUSE ORE COMPRESSION WAS INTRODUCED. You can read Chornotis' Blog, this is stated there with all the letter for everyone to see. So it comes to reason that Ore compression in high sec should be introduced as well, it being the "correct" way of doing it.

Currently ore compression does not exist in high sec simply because you can't do it in stations or POSes. It can only be done in the Rorqual, which is jump capable and thus unable to come into high sec. That is easily corrected giving the same ability to the Orca.

Compressing ore in high sec is the only real use for the Orca. Otherwise it will be a useless (and probably expensive) ship.

Chauneko Sakyou
Posted - 2008.02.12 04:52:00 - [208]
 

Edited by: Chauneko Sakyou on 12/02/2008 06:47:13
Originally by: Etho Demerzel

And some people sell T2 without factoring datacore costs because they have R&D agents and think their datacores are for free. Others do the same with minerals.

The fact that there are people that want to spend lots of ISK to have 5-7% more bonus in command bonuses in a otherwise useless ship, does not mean it is a good idea...


Just because someone prices something differently does not mean it's not a good idea. If you could drive competition out of a market by ignoring the market value of something you received merely for being around for a time, wouldn't you?

And, if it's better than any other command ship out there for mining bonuses, then it's not useless. example: I spent thirty mil the other day to mine ice 4% faster. how long did it take the upgrade to pay for itself? 16 hours of ice mining. that's less than two days for me. so, if I could get 7% faster out of another modifier for a bil, I wouldn't even blink about it.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel

Again, no objective reason whatsoever given. Just "I want it". As I said both roles are contradictory, unless you can compress ores into your cargo and sit there for a long time, like the rorqual. Cargo Space is useless otherwise. So are capital tractors.


I never said anything about capital tractors. and, the cargo space is not useless. if all else fails, it gives the hauler(s) one point to warp to pickup another load. also, for those who only run three-person ops, three cycles with and one cycle without bonuses is still better than no cycles with.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel

Really you do. And besides failing you avoid the point. Worse you put it backwards. Mineral compression was nerfed BECAUSE ORE COMPRESSION WAS INTRODUCED. You can read Chornotis' Blog, this is stated there with all the letter for everyone to see. So it comes to reason that Ore compression in high sec should be introduced as well, it being the "correct" way of doing it.


alright, let's go look at this blog that you keep citing.
Chronotis' Blog
Originally by: CCP Chronotis

This ship's unique ore compression ability allows the movement of ores from fringe regions to empire space for refining, a feature requested since EVE's launch.


At no point does he state that it was planned for moving from empire to fringe regions, only for fringe regions to empire. Until CCP says otherwise, I am led to believe that this was and is intentional.

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

Currently, there are a number of items whose total volume of required ingredients are many times that of the resulting product. This leads to imbalanced compression rates as high as 430:1, such as the 1,000m3 Jump Portal Generator, a module requiring 430,000m3 of minerals to make. Upon completion, these modules would be transported to a new location and reprocessed with nearly zero waste, thus allowing the transport of a Freighter load of minerals with an Industrial.

While this imbalance has been around for a long time, it wasn't until the introduction of high resource capital modules that we began to see its use increase.


Mineral compression was and is not something that was intended. CCP is attempting to fix it still without breaking their game.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2008.02.12 07:53:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Chauneko Sakyou

Just because someone prices something differently does not mean it's not a good idea. If you could drive competition out of a market by ignoring the market value of something you received merely for being around for a time, wouldn't you?



It does not work like this. Given the production capacity youwill never drive other people out. All you will achieve is to earn less money than you would simply selling the datacores you used.

And that is just an example. I can give you several other examples of misguided practices in this game.

Quote:

And, if it's better than any other command ship out there for mining bonuses, then it's not useless. example: I spent thirty mil the other day to mine ice 4% faster. how long did it take the upgrade to pay for itself? 16 hours of ice mining. that's less than two days for me. so, if I could get 7% faster out of another modifier for a bil, I wouldn't even blink about it.



Good luck mining anything in high sec that will give you a back your investment of 1 Bil for a 7% increase in yield in a reasonable amount of time.

Quote:

I never said anything about capital tractors. and, the cargo space is not useless. if all else fails, it gives the hauler(s) one point to warp to pickup another load. also, for those who only run three-person ops, three cycles with and one cycle without bonuses is still better than no cycles with.



That if you have a station in the same sector. Anyway, if only for the bonuses it is not worth. You would be far better using the char that is in the Orca in another Hulk. Unless you have an op of 15+ people. In which case you could as well be mining in low sec or anywhere with a rorqual, as high sec ores really suck.

Quote:

At no point does he state that it was planned for moving from empire to fringe regions, only for fringe regions to empire. Until CCP says otherwise, I am led to believe that this was and is intentional.

Mineral compression was and is not something that was intended. CCP is attempting to fix it still without breaking their game.


Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The Rorqual's introduction grants us the ability to incorporate older ‘metafeatures’ into EVE in a balanced and officially supported manner.


As it is stated here they want to replace mineral compression with ore compression. Well, guess what. Mineral compression is WAY more used to bring material TO null sec, than FROM null sec.

Mineral comrpession will never ever end until there is a viable alternative to it, which there is not at the moment. The Orca may be this alternative. With the advantage of stimulating people to mine in high sec. Instead of missioning for minerals or buying from macroers...

Chauneko Sakyou
Posted - 2008.02.12 08:47:00 - [210]
 

well sir, I bow out to your absolute brilliance. you have proven that I cannot possibly be planning to play for longer than a month and thus this ship must pay for itself within a month or less. you have also proven that undercutting your competitors is not a viable market scheme and that sticking your hauler into another mining barge is indeed the way to go to increase your isk/hr. furthermore you have also proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that ccp intends for mineral compression and ore compression to be able to bring goods from high-sec to low/null-sec. I paint tears under my eyes and pour ash on my head in shame.

(as if)
you don't want mining bonuses because 5-7% might take more than a week to pay off. you do want compression because you want an easy fix to move absurd amounts of minerals around easily without having to go low-sec to compress it first. best of all, you think that merely because something is used a lot, therefore it is right or else it must be replaced with something equivalent. obviously CCP has never had something happen in-game that they didn't intend for, I mean, lots of ships were meant to go 5km/s or faster, right?


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