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Tokuji Hayakawa
Posted - 2008.01.06 12:35:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Tokuji Hayakawa on 06/01/2008 12:37:27
Apologies for that Marcus Tedric,
for some reason the forum chewed my post.

What I was trying to say is that compression is unecessary for the Orca in HighSec.

For ice in any reasonably large gang,the cargo room is insufficient,it would be better to use rigged/expanded haulers.

For minerals its a little better,but still without compression not ideal.

I was proposing allowing the ship to have refining instead of compression lines,and (as others mentioned previously)allow in space docking for Freighters.

This would solve the Ice problem,and also allow for mining ops in orphaned systems(no station),without enabling compression in High Sec.

Taking this further I suppose if you had the Isk you could use a jump freighter to collect the ore from the op mooch to low sec and compress it via Rorqual then jump it to 0.0.
Would certainly be a boost to logistics after the carrier balancing.

Linkage
I asked the same question,was it happening or no,see the thread above for Chronotis' reply (helping keep the thread going).Very Happy

Riley Craven
Caldari
Raata Invicti
Reckoning.
Posted - 2008.01.06 17:21:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Marcus Tedric

Very Happy No, we don't have to argue at all - it's a dicussion.

And yes, I too can calculate the amount of minerals, particulary Tritanium, that would be needed to build Mom's and Titans - which are, after all, the ONLY items in EVE that HAVE to be built in 0.0.

However, the parts that make up those ships CAN be made in Empire and shipped out there - but it would take a lot of Freighter runs - however Jump Bridges have made that much easier.

But the real point is that ALL the minerals needed to make ships CAN be found out in 0.0 - it's just that people don't mine them like, I suggest, the simulation is designed.

For my part I wish the EVE Logic and Physics Engine were much more 'realistic' - there should never have been even the potential for Mineral Compression and there should never have been Perfect Reprocessing.


I think the reason Pwett said he wouldnt argue with you was because your posts dont make any sense. I however LOVE to argue with people to show them the error of their ways.

1. Cap ship comps are HEAVIER than the minerals it uses to build them. Therefore, it would foolish to build cap ship comps and haul them anywhere.

2. Have you asked yourself why no one mines trir in 0.0? Do you know why it would be foolish to do so? Have you thought about how the eve economy works at all? Please point me to where the devs stated that it was designed that 0.0 was supposed to be the place that you had to activities designed for empire, or that players should just mine trit in 0.0

3. Have you participated in the upkeep of an ACTUAL allaince, (aka BoB, ASCN, Red, or any other big name) When I say participated I mean put in charge of keeping allaince level affairs in top working order? If the answer is No I would kindly ask you to keep to yourself about what logistics should and should not be.

Riley Craven
Caldari
Raata Invicti
Reckoning.
Posted - 2008.01.06 17:25:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Tokuji Hayakawa
Edited by: Tokuji Hayakawa on 06/01/2008 12:37:27
Apologies for that Marcus Tedric,
for some reason the forum chewed my post.

What I was trying to say is that compression is unecessary for the Orca in HighSec.

For ice in any reasonably large gang,the cargo room is insufficient,it would be better to use rigged/expanded haulers.

For minerals its a little better,but still without compression not ideal.

I was proposing allowing the ship to have refining instead of compression lines,and (as others mentioned previously)allow in space docking for Freighters.

This would solve the Ice problem,and also allow for mining ops in orphaned systems(no station),without enabling compression in High Sec.

Taking this further I suppose if you had the Isk you could use a jump freighter to collect the ore from the op mooch to low sec and compress it via Rorqual then jump it to 0.0.
Would certainly be a boost to logistics after the carrier balancing.

Linkage
I asked the same question,was it happening or no,see the thread above for Chronotis' reply (helping keep the thread going).Very Happy


I think you may have given this some thought, but I think more is required. When designing a ship these questions must be answered. What role is it going to fill? What problem does it solve? Is there a problem it could solve?

At this point in Eve history adding ships to do the jobs of other ships just doesnt make sense. Things need to be balanced and have a purpose. In high sec what role does the orca need to have?

This is the problem the CCP seems to always fail at, and what other people seem to fail at as well in ship design.

Right now there are several problems that need to be addressed in this game. Compression is one of them.

Techster
Posted - 2008.01.06 19:52:00 - [124]
 

I think the baby brother of a rorqual (especially if the price falls in line, such as 600m-1b) could be a nice boost for the smaller corps trying to startup in empire and gives them something to help them move to the lowsec arena. Yes this could help macroers, but they'll find a way to use every game mechanic anyways so why hurt the people that could use it correctly just because some may not?

A nice way to reduce the compression if you're worried about it flooding the market is require a level (or two or some combination) of the ship skill for each extra line for compression runs. Maybe 0 to a max of 4 for lines. This ship shoudl have roughly 1/2 to 2/3 the cargo hold of a normal Rorqual and no it shouldn't have jump capabilities or a clone vat. This could also be used to augment a mining fleet in 0.0 that doesn't need any more rorquals, but may need just a few extra compression slots and already has a way to get the compression out without needing it jumped.

Posted in here was a suggestion of it being used as a mission salvage ship. On some level 4 missions i think this is a great idea, but if CCP doesn't want it used in this role it needs to take action before hand to prevent these from being able to go into those complexes. On the otherhand if CCP does like this idea, then instead of the full range on tractor beams, also give it a bonus to salavage (either time, distance, or success as all can be handy to get people to salvage more from missions).

Nekopyat
Posted - 2008.01.06 21:29:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Marcus Tedric

And neither should the Orca. Logistics in this simulation should not be made even easier.


Not sure I agree here. Any section of a simulation that is grind oriented opens up the floodgates to gold farmers. Mining logictics in high-sec is a good example of this effect.


Quote:
The Rorqual has compression to make one thing easier - remote mining operations away from a station in Low-Sec or Null-Sec, it's not actually designed to move compressed Ore/Mins from Empire to 0.0.


Here is where we get into the classic problem of game mechanics vs role playing. The Rorqual has features that people want in high-sec. If this were a real market economy, one of those shild building companies would be pouring resources into building a high-sec version with the feature set that mining ops would want to buy. If there is a demand for ore compression in high sec, then some corp should be providing it unless there is a very good in-game reason for why this process only works far away from CONCORD (maybe thier uber ships emit a field that stops compression from working?)

Mac Dodger
Posted - 2008.01.10 23:34:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Mac Dodger on 11/01/2008 00:01:57
The following is just my opinion and yes it might not mean anything to you and you aren’t required to read but if you do please keep this in mind.

Now; from my understand of the Rorqual, it was designed to be a remote mining platform for remote locations, being able to support 4 - 5 miners, in far reaches. I conclude this from the following:


1. Clone bay – used to allow pilots to get the location of mining operations without being killed
2. Ship maintenance bay – So that the pilot doesn’t have to risk his ship to get to mining locations
3. Jump Drive – so that Rorqual itself can get to location with minimal risk.
4. Ore compression – to hope a large amount of ore because it is unable to return to the station with ease to unload its cargo.

A well skilled Hulk pilot with implants can pull around 1800 per laser giving 5400m3 ever three minutes. With a party of five a single haul can keep himself very much entertained. The problem that arises is when you have a mining party of fifteen plus, you are now looking at one hauler for every five hulks.

The role that needs to be filed here is a ship that can replace three haulers and allow the other to haulers to join the mining party.

I don’t think we need ore compression to accomplish this role, just a large cargo hold and some tractor beams. Now with everything in eve there needs to be a trade off. First the ship should be expensive to build which would require countless hour of mining before it becomes profitable, like a freighter. Also if the ship consumed a fuel, like heavy water to operate, this would make the ship only desirable to mining parties with numbers that can still make using the ship profitable.

So after all my hot air and logic I present this:

Orca:

1. Freighter that cannot hold anything but ore.
2. Cargo holds are locked while in space until seiged.
3. Can use Gang Assist Modules
4. Capital Tractor Beam
5. Industrial Core
6. Fuel bay (since cargo hold cannot hold anything but ore)
7. Cargo hold size from 800,000m3 based upon above numbers.
8. And of course the last thing; a little sprinkling of mining command bonus don’t hurt either.

Please remember these are rough ideas, and again based upon the above points

Thanks for reading and I look forward to any constructive comments you may have.

MD



Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:26:00 - [127]
 

I do not agree with the premise that the rorqual is a mining or hauling ship. It does nothing a carrier with a small pos in it's hold couldn't already do, and it terms of hostile territory operation, do better. It has a few more bells and whistles like a few more percent of mining command bonus' and a larger maintenance bay, but in terms of those two items, they're not enough to outweigh the lack of protection a carrier can field at a moments notice.

That said, the rorqual is a compression ship, and compression needs to be the focus of the orca.

With the removal of jump-bridging freighters, carrier hauling, and module compression, this role is more important that it has ever been before.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2008.01.11 10:04:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Pwett
I do not agree with the premise that the rorqual is a mining or hauling ship. It does nothing a carrier with a small pos in it's hold couldn't already do, and it terms of hostile territory operation, do better. It has a few more bells and whistles like a few more percent of mining command bonus' and a larger maintenance bay, but in terms of those two items, they're not enough to outweigh the lack of protection a carrier can field at a moments notice.

That said, the rorqual is a compression ship, and compression needs to be the focus of the orca.

With the removal of jump-bridging freighters, carrier hauling, and module compression, this role is more important that it has ever been before.


You're right, compression is the big feature of the rorqual. But it doesn't have this role in order to replace module compression. The ore compression was given to the rorqual for the very specific reason of aiding in the belt->refinery part of the supply chain. That you can make it useful in other parts of the chain by holding off on refining till the last possible moment is more a convenient side-effect than the main purpose.

Ore compression for the belt->refinery journey is useful in 0.0 because of the much sparser distribution of decent refineries. That's the primary reason why the rorqual gives you in-space assembly lines, rather than tying the capability to more permanent infrastructure. The same argument would be almost completely irrelevant for empire space, where the majority of systems have at least one 50% refinery in them.

If the intention is to give compression in the refinery->market/manufacturing stage, then deliberately doing this via ore compression alone is an unnecessarily awkward mechanism to do so. It would also be distorting to the market, as refining it to trade the individual minerals would instantly make it much less mobile. The majority of mobile trade would go into compressed ores, so you could easily develop situations where demand for one mineral drew in lots of ore, and caused a glut in the "byproduct" minerals of the process.

Compression in this stage would be much better served by proper mineral compression (i.e. specific Compressed Tritanium, Compressed Pyerite etc). These could easily be balanced to give mineral densities comparable to what you'd achieve with ore compression, and you could even add in extra material requirements to act as the "fuel" element if required. There is also no reason why this should not be performed in normal manufacturing lines, because there is no need for it to occur in-space (unlike the rorqual where the whole point is to compress it at the point of mining).

Giving the two stages of the supply chain different mechanisms would also give you the option of balancing it differently, as what is a balanced compression ratio for belt->refinery hauling may not be the most appropriate ratio for more general mineral mobility - though the mineral ratio could never be appreciably less than the ore compression equivalent, otherwise people would just use ore compression instead.

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2008.01.11 14:45:00 - [129]
 

I agree completely that mineral compression would be much more favourable to asteroid compression in high-sec.

excellent idea.

Herring
Caldari
Pimpology
Posted - 2008.01.12 11:41:00 - [130]
 

I'd agree that the orca, should it ever come to be, should have compression. Mineral compression as described by Matthew there makes a lot of sense to me.

However I think there is a vacuum that this ship could address, and that is the systems in both high and lowsec empire that don't have refineries. Either give it the capacity to haul the compressed ore from an op or compressed minerals back to the desired destination. As for putting up a pos for systems like this, yes, it can be done. But not for every system you want to mine in, and especially not in highsec without proper standing (or increased cost for fuel, etc).

It'd be more economically feasible if the platform for your mining operations wasn't 24/7 isk sink, and could travel to another location on fairly short notice. As far as mining bonuses, meh, it doesn't really need them.


Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2008.01.12 15:44:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Herring
I'd agree that the orca, should it ever come to be, should have compression. Mineral compression as described by Matthew there makes a lot of sense to me.


Well, my argument is that there is no need for mineral compression to occur in-space in a ship. The mere fact that you have minerals to compress instead of ore indicates that you have already got the material back to a station or POS in order to refine them, so it seems much more appropriate to have the mineral compression occur in the station or POS - which would be in normal manufacturing facilities (either NPC or POS based). The whole point of having ore compression a ship-based ability is so that it can occur at the point of mining. As mineral compression could never occur at the point of mining anyway, the main reason for it being ship-based is removed.

Making mineral compression a ship-based ability would just lead to piles and piles of orcas sitting afk at safespots (or in POS bubbles if there's a real risk of attack) running mineral compression. Having the mineral compression ability in the ship would do nothing but add yet another incredibly boring, primarily afk mechanism to industry. Which is really not what we need.

Originally by: Herring
However I think there is a vacuum that this ship could address, and that is the systems in both high and lowsec empire that don't have refineries. Either give it the capacity to haul the compressed ore from an op or compressed minerals back to the desired destination.


The distance to the nearest refinery in high-sec space is usually very short, much shorter than you'd find in the areas the rorqual is intended to be used in (which includes low-sec space as well as 0.0). The distance to the refinery is a key element of balance in terms of the cost of performing ore compression. If the refinery is very close, then ore compression has to be cheap and quick to make it the preferred option. However if you make it too cheap, it becomes unbalanced compared to the alternatives (particularly the POS refinery arrays).

In high-sec space, it's pretty much never very far to the nearest refinery, so ore compression on the orca would have to be very cheap if it was going to be a viable option. But you can't make the orca compression cheaper than the rorqual, else everyone would use orcas instead of rorquals in low-sec/0.0 space. Yet if you make the rorqual cheap enough to match what would be needed on the orca, you'd make it unbalanced compared to the other low-sec/0.0 options.

Originally by: Herring
As for putting up a pos for systems like this, yes, it can be done. But not for every system you want to mine in, and especially not in highsec without proper standing (or increased cost for fuel, etc).


In systems without an NPC refinery, but with a station, people don't bother with a POS anyway, they haul to the station and transfer to a freighter for the haul to a refinery.

In systems with no NPC station at all, people put up a very limited POS - a small tower with a corp hangar array, to enable the transfer to a freighter.

That tells me that the key to high-sec operations in these refinery-less systems is in getting the stuff into a freighter as quickly as possible. Which is where my suggestion of the orca having a large deployable cargohold, and the ability to transfer to a freighter while deployed comes in. This provides a big boost in efficiency by completely eliminating the belt->transfer_station stage of hauling, without having to wrestle with balancing ore compression to make it viable when the nearest refinery is likely just 1 safe jump away.

It also means the orcas ability is useful in the vast majority of high-sec systems which do have a refinery, where ore compression just for the belt->station leg would be the height of pointlessness.

An extra bonus of this idea is that it gives the orca a potential role in low-sec/0.0 operations that can compliment rather than compete with the rorqual.

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2008.01.12 19:44:00 - [132]
 

The argument for the compression is that it needs to exist in high-sec so that there is way to get all that high-sec down to 0.0 without having to use freighter trains of uncompressed ore.

I didn't think about the whole mineral compression, unless the orca had the ability to compress from ore > compressed mineral, which would sidestep the refinery process... which loses the mineral tax sink, but skill-wise it should have the same pre-requisites as perfect refine, which the Rorqual already requires.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2008.01.13 01:33:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Pwett
The argument for the compression is that it needs to exist in high-sec so that there is way to get all that high-sec down to 0.0 without having to use freighter trains of uncompressed ore.


I agree there needs to be a compression-for-transport route for what you describe. But both refineries and manufacturing facilities are so plentiful in empire that having a ship to perform that role would be largely redundant.

If you're going to have a ship sitting in space to do something, there has to be a good reason why it has to perform that activity in space, otherwise it just becomes a pointless afk time sink. I just don't see that need with compression in empire space.

Originally by: Pwett
I didn't think about the whole mineral compression, unless the orca had the ability to compress from ore > compressed mineral, which would sidestep the refinery process... which loses the mineral tax sink, but skill-wise it should have the same pre-requisites as perfect refine, which the Rorqual already requires.


An interesting idea, and not something I'd intended with the mechanism. In terms of refining taxes and losses, it would be fairly balanced if you made sure that converting compressed minerals into usable minerals involved a refining process that had the same tax and efficiency sinks as refining the ore.

Of course, you would still need an alternative mineral->compressed mineral route, as well as the ore->compressed mineral route, to avoid the problem of "stranding" refined minerals in an untransportable state.

And it still has the problem that an orca producing compressed minerals directly from ores would make the POS refining arrays completely obsolete.

Marcus Tedric
Gallente
Tedric Enterprises
Crimson Steel Empire
Posted - 2008.01.13 10:58:00 - [134]
 

Whilst I fully understand the 0.0 dwellers' desire to be able to trundle large quantities of Trit, Pyer and probably Mex out there.....

There's no actual logical reason to.

The Ore/Mins is all available out there - it's just that they struggle to get people to mine it there.

And even then, nothing is stopping High Sec Ore being moved to Low Sec using a Freighter (even Jump Freighter) where a Rorqual can Compress it.

There is a balence to be drawn between a beautifully complex simulation where we can really pretend we are there.....

And a game that is playable given that we don't live there...

Mineral compression is an absurdity really - currently CCP allows us to still do it, but at more modest levels than before.

For my part, a Mining Director's Command ship with bonuses is currently missing from the panoply - to reduce the hauler work in a mining op it either needs a Large Cargohold - or to pretend to be an Online POS Tower allowing Freighters to load Ore. A T2 Mining Capital Ship (suitable bonuses) also able to use Capital Tractor Beams and we're really getting something extra.

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2008.01.13 16:56:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Marcus Tedric
The Ore/Mins is all available out there - it's just that they struggle to get people to mine it there.


Not in sufficient quantities to support super-cap production.

Your biggest source of low-ends in 0.0 are hauler spawns, and even then it would take 20+ of the perfect trit ones alone to cover the requirements of 1 MS. The most Veldspar an asteroid will ever have will be 2 jetcans worth (tested growth over 6 months) and that's assuming you have time to let them grow. There are also less of the low-end asteroids in 0.0 so per belt, you get FAR less trit than you do in a high-sec belt - assuming you are taking full advantage of your space and stripping the belts on respawn.

So, yes, 0.0 REQUIRES the low-ends available from high-sec.

And 2) you will never see my Rorqual in low-sec until there is a way to functionally lock down a system. And no, I don't subscribe to the mothership-gate-smartbomb tactic in EVE :)

Per Bastet
Amarr
B.O.O.M
Obsidian Mining Coalition
Posted - 2008.01.13 17:24:00 - [136]
 

When I think of the Orca I think of a Mini Carrier.

So it would be a Cap Ship, but No Jump Drive.
Large Drone bay, maybe even good for Fighters, Or Fighter Sized Mining Drones.
No Ship Hanger
No Corp Hanger
10k or so Cargo Bay
Siege Module that Increases it's Mining Support Bonuses. Maybe the same Support Bonuses as the Rorqual.
Siege Module would use Fuel in the same Manner as the Rorqual
NO COMPRESSION - The Rorqual needs to keep it's uniqueness
Decent Tank, But nothing to Write Home about

This ship should be a High Sec Mining Support Ship, not a Uber Mining Ship.

Rattus Mordax
Posted - 2008.01.13 17:48:00 - [137]
 

the capital mining lasers could always just spit out compressed ore immediately.

Riley Craven
Caldari
Raata Invicti
Reckoning.
Posted - 2008.01.14 03:41:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Rattus Mordax
the capital mining lasers could always just spit out compressed ore immediately.


Personally, I would LOVE that idea...sadly for us CCP has no intention on ever making compression at all easy. Lets face it CCP loves to needless complicate game mechanics... "fun" (aka easy) is obviously not in their vocabulary. Couse Eve was never an instant gratification game. (you even have to wait for targets)

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2008.01.14 09:52:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Rattus Mordax
the capital mining lasers could always just spit out compressed ore immediately.


Yes, because that wouldn't obsolete the rorqual at all. Oh no. Rolling Eyes

A capital ship with auto-compressing lasers would be completely overpowered, and do for mining vessels what pre-nerf carriers did for combat and hauling vessels.

We do not need another tier of uber-mining ship. What we need is a high-sec capable ship that will encourage group mining by giving a benefit to proper teamwork, without obsoleting either the existing mining ships, or the rorqual in low-sec/0.0 space.

Originally by: Riley Craven
Personally, I would LOVE that idea...sadly for us CCP has no intention on ever making compression at all easy. Lets face it CCP loves to needless complicate game mechanics... "fun" (aka easy) is obviously not in their vocabulary. Couse Eve was never an instant gratification game. (you even have to wait for targets)


Fun is not aka easy, unless you're talking about an element of the game that doesn't personally appeal to you. You treat it like an awkward necessity that should be minimzed as far as possible, rather than the integral part of gameplay that it is.

Making stuff easy devalues the activity, and reduces the fun for those players that enjoy the challenge of that activity. It also devalues those players as part of a corp/alliance, because those who prefer other playstyles do not value that contribution because it's so easy.

Compression via the rorqual, or via the sort of mineral compression I suggested, does let you make the hauling easier. But unlike the magic compressing mining laser idea, it's a transfer of effort, not a straight elimination. Which ensures that what you are replacing is still valued, because it's replacement has it's own costs and drawbacks.

Tokuji Hayakawa
Posted - 2008.01.14 15:05:00 - [140]
 

Not to harp on here but without the ability to Reduce Ores,by either compression or refining,this ship will be worthless for Ice Mining.
Its ok to talk in terms of normal ores but what of Ice,it should address all forms of mining,not just mineral ores.
I still stand by letting it refine in space and allow frieghters to dock,no need for compression then.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2008.01.14 15:59:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Tokuji Hayakawa
Not to harp on here but without the ability to Reduce Ores,by either compression or refining,this ship will be worthless for Ice Mining.
Its ok to talk in terms of normal ores but what of Ice,it should address all forms of mining,not just mineral ores.
I still stand by letting it refine in space and allow frieghters to dock,no need for compression then.


Putting ice refining ability on the ship would make it massively overpowered compared to the POS refining arrays, unless you significantly nerfed the refining yield, at which point it becomes an unattractive option and would be largely pointless.

For high-sec, the situation is entirely the same as for ore - there's no point compressing the ice, because 99% of the time you'll only be hauling the ice direct from the belt to the station within the same system. Simply allowing the freighter to load up from the orca in-belt is a far more effective way of boosting this stage.

For low-sec/0.0, any compression ability should be on the Rorqual, not the orca. We don't need an entirely new ship just for ice.

And again, if you want to be able to compress the refined ice products for further transport, that can be handled in normal manufacturing facilities (either station or POS based), there's no need for it to happen in the belt.

Riley Craven
Caldari
Raata Invicti
Reckoning.
Posted - 2008.01.14 18:25:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Matthew

Fun is not aka easy, unless you're talking about an element of the game that doesn't personally appeal to you. You treat it like an awkward necessity that should be minimzed as far as possible, rather than the integral part of gameplay that it is.

Making stuff easy devalues the activity, and reduces the fun for those players that enjoy the challenge of that activity. It also devalues those players as part of a corp/alliance, because those who prefer other playstyles do not value that contribution because it's so easy.

Compression via the rorqual, or via the sort of mineral compression I suggested, does let you make the hauling easier. But unlike the magic compressing mining laser idea, it's a transfer of effort, not a straight elimination. Which ensures that what you are replacing is still valued, because it's replacement has it's own costs and drawbacks.


I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.

Because 1. Mining is never "fun" its a boring task, yet it also one of the easiest task to do in eve aside from setting up manufacturing jobs.
So that leads me to 2. Mining being easy has not devauled its role in the economy, and 3. There should not be "boring" tasks in a computer ->GAME<- If something is boring it is no longer a game.

Now, what I was refering to in my arguement, that you seem to have misunderstood, is that compression in its current form is a real pita and most of the stuff I find on these forums about it suggest that its a real task and not many people like it. Instead I think the cap mining laser would have been a better idea instead of the manufacturing lanes we currently have. i.e. compression done right. Am I saying that the Cap mining laser idea in that form was the perfect idea? No, I am saying it would have been better than compression lanes.

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2008.01.14 19:08:00 - [143]
 

I think Riley is correct when he basically says we shouldn't accept the premise that the Rorqual got it right the first time.




Xavier Iblis
Posted - 2008.01.14 22:38:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Xavier Iblis on 14/01/2008 22:39:32
Originally by: Riley Craven

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.

Because 1. Mining is never "fun" its a boring task, yet it also one of the easiest task to do in eve aside from setting up manufacturing jobs.
So that leads me to 2. Mining being easy has not devauled its role in the economy, and 3. There should not be "boring" tasks in a computer ->GAME<- If something is boring it is no longer a game.


I'd disagree here. I find mining to be very relaxing and the fun part of it comes when I refine and sell my minerals for good profit. MMOs are built on the "a little bit of effort now leads to great satisfaction and pride later" attitude. If that satisfaction and pride isn't enough to justify the effort then for you it is not fun. For me, it very much is.

Anyway, I feel that there is no reason not to allow the Orca to ore-compress other than people might not want to use the Rorqual if the Orca is cheaper. If the Rorqual is just straight up better than the Orca, which it will be, then there's not really much of a problem three. Not wanting ore-compression in high-sec makes little sense to me... "It's not needed since there are many stations around to haul to." So? Just because you're content to haul to station and refine doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to get my new shiny.

The other bit is the freighter idea puts it out of reach of a lot of smaller corps. Scraping together 1bil for a big ship is one thing... Scraping together 2bil for 2 big ships is another.

I'm apparently failing to understand the arguments that would keep ore-compression out of high-sec.

Riley Craven
Caldari
Raata Invicti
Reckoning.
Posted - 2008.01.15 00:08:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Xavier Iblis

I'd disagree here. I find mining to be very relaxing and the fun part of it comes when I refine and sell my minerals for good profit. MMOs are built on the "a little bit of effort now leads to great satisfaction and pride later" attitude. If that satisfaction and pride isn't enough to justify the effort then for you it is not fun. For me, it very much is.



Well your kind helping me in my point actually. Course I tend to see things in a segmented view rather than shades of a issues. Relaxing to me doesnt equate to fun, but it doesnt equate to boring either. I would think most people would see fun as perhaps raised endorphine(sp) levels, or adrinalin (sp) where as relaxing I would think involved either of those (though to be fair I could be talking out of my but since I a computer nerd and not a biochem nerd)

fun (fn)
n.
1. A source of enjoyment, amusement, or pleasure.
2. Enjoyment; amusement: have fun at the beach.
3. Playful, often noisy, activity.
intr.v. funned, fun·ning, funs Informal
To behave playfully; joke

bored
verb
past tense and past participle of to bore
adjective (more bored, most bored)
suffering from boredom
uninterested, without attention
The piano teacher's look betrayed he wasn't paying much attention to his pupil's boringly stereotype rendition of the brilliantly composed etudes
perforated by a hole or holes through bioerosion

So by these definitions above, mining wouldnt fit into fun in any sense of the word. Though it does seem to fit relaxing and bored very well :)


re·lax (r-lks)
v. re·laxed, re·lax·ing, re·lax·es
v.tr.
1. To make lax or loose: relax one's grip.
2. To make less severe or strict: relax a curfew.
3. To reduce in intensity; slacken: relax one's efforts.
4. To relieve from tension or strain: The warm bath relaxed me.
v.intr.
1. To take one's ease; rest.
2. To become lax or loose.
3. To become less severe or strict.
4. To become less restrained or tense.

Chauneko Sakyou
Posted - 2008.01.15 04:33:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Riley Craven
Originally by: Xavier Iblis

I'd disagree here. I find mining to be very relaxing and the fun part of it comes when I refine and sell my minerals for good profit. MMOs are built on the "a little bit of effort now leads to great satisfaction and pride later" attitude. If that satisfaction and pride isn't enough to justify the effort then for you it is not fun. For me, it very much is.



Well your kind helping me in my point actually. Course I tend to see things in a segmented view rather than shades of a issues. Relaxing to me doesnt equate to fun, but it doesnt equate to boring either. I would think most people would see fun as perhaps raised endorphine(sp) levels, or adrinalin (sp) where as relaxing I would think involved either of those (though to be fair I could be talking out of my but since I a computer nerd and not a biochem nerd)

fun (fn)
n.
1. A source of enjoyment, amusement, or pleasure.
2. Enjoyment; amusement: have fun at the beach.
3. Playful, often noisy, activity.
intr.v. funned, fun·ning, funs Informal
To behave playfully; joke

bored
verb
past tense and past participle of to bore
adjective (more bored, most bored)
suffering from boredom
uninterested, without attention
The piano teacher's look betrayed he wasn't paying much attention to his pupil's boringly stereotype rendition of the brilliantly composed etudes
perforated by a hole or holes through bioerosion

So by these definitions above, mining wouldnt fit into fun in any sense of the word. Though it does seem to fit relaxing and bored very well :)


re·lax (r-lks)
v. re·laxed, re·lax·ing, re·lax·es
v.tr.
1. To make lax or loose: relax one's grip.
2. To make less severe or strict: relax a curfew.
3. To reduce in intensity; slacken: relax one's efforts.
4. To relieve from tension or strain: The warm bath relaxed me.
v.intr.
1. To take one's ease; rest.
2. To become lax or loose.
3. To become less severe or strict.
4. To become less restrained or tense.


Riley, you're just arguing semantics here for the most part. personally, I find mining to be both fun and relaxing. I'm sorry you cannot find it in yourself to experience fun any other way than "living on the edge" or somesuch but regardless of you there are many people in this game that do enjoy mining and find it fun or "fun" however you want to put it.

Riley aside though, what about this... take away jump abilities (of course). take away half the compression lines, all the cap-ship abilities (IE: clone vat bay, ship maintenance hangar, etc.) and leave pretty much all the rest. that would seem a lot like a high-sec version. stripped down and dependent on surrounding facilities but still able to completely fulfill its support role in a secure environment.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2008.01.15 09:49:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Matthew on 15/01/2008 09:49:51
Originally by: Riley Craven
Because 1. Mining is never "fun" its a boring task, yet it also one of the easiest task to do in eve aside from setting up manufacturing jobs.


Mining is most certainly boring the way most people do it, but that's because most people do it the lazy way. If you're actually mining properly to maximise your yields, there's plenty to do to keep you from getting bored, and it's no more repetitive than any other PvE activity. But a lot of people mine specifically because it's a more relaxed activity, and choose to take the more relaxed method. My experience is that group mining, with it's more relaxed atmosphere is more fun than group combat ops, which often boil down to following the leader like sheep and everyone sitting there in deathly silence so the FC can shout on TS when the 2 hour search finally uncovers a target.

You feel differently. That's fine. Just don't discount the other side because it doesn't align with what you want from the game.

Originally by: Riley Craven
So that leads me to 2. Mining being easy has not devauled its role in the economy


That is because the limiting factor on mining is not difficulty, it's time. Also, alternatives to mining require an alternative expenditure of effort or cost. Yes, you can get minerals from rat loot, but you still have to take the time to shoot the rats, you still have to get the stuff to a refinery to refine it, and you generally can't target your desired minerals as accurately as you can by picking which ore to mine. Yes, you can get minerals by buying up NPC goods and refining them. But unless the economy is messed up, this method will come at an increased cost over the market value, and you still have to haul if you need it somewhere the npc good isn't sold.

At the end of the day, mining is still valued because there is no quick, easy way to replace it.

The same applies to hauling the result of that mining to where you need it. There are alternatives to reduce hauling too. You could buy closer to where you need it, but you're likely to have to pay more for what you need. You can compress the ore to reduce the amount of hauling required, but that requires time and cost to do.

Originally by: Riley Craven
Now, what I was refering to in my arguement, that you seem to have misunderstood, is that compression in its current form is a real pita and most of the stuff I find on these forums about it suggest that its a real task and not many people like it. Instead I think the cap mining laser would have been a better idea instead of the manufacturing lanes we currently have. i.e. compression done right. Am I saying that the Cap mining laser idea in that form was the perfect idea? No, I am saying it would have been better than compression lanes.


Well, this really depends on why they're currently finding it a pita. If it's because it takes a bit of time, and costs fuel to do, then I have no sympathy. If the process didn't incur costs, then it would devalue the hauling that it is replacing. If it's because the S&I interface is a lot of annoying clicks when you're running lots of different ore types in small jobs, then that I can sympathise with.

I don't think a capital mining laser is the way to address it though, even if you added time or fuel use constraints. This is for the simple reason that whatever ship you give the ability to fit it will become a new "uber-miner" ship, a role we already have ships to fill.

One of the intentions of the rorqual, (and of the orca as I understand the proposals) is to encourage group mining. Shifing compression back to individual mining ships with a compressing laser would break this.

The problem of the rorqual click-fest is one that has been acknowledged by the devs in this forum, and they have said they're looking for a solution. There are several ways to "fix" the rorqual, so it's easier to use UI-wise, without breaking it's balance in terms of time/cost. That would be my favoured option.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2008.01.15 09:51:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Riley Craven
and 3. There should not be "boring" tasks in a computer ->GAME<- If something is boring it is no longer a game.


One person's boring is another man's pleasant relaxing evening. One of Eve's strengths is that it caters to lots of different playstyles, and actively encourages them to work together to achieve goals.

Originally by: Riley Craven
fun (fn)
n.
1. A source of enjoyment, amusement, or pleasure.


Well, I find a nice relaxing evening to be enjoyable, mining is relaxing, therefore by your own argument, mining is fun Wink

That's the thing about enjoyment, pleasure, fun etc. It's completely subjective.

Originally by: Xavier Iblis
Not wanting ore-compression in high-sec makes little sense to me... "It's not needed since there are many stations around to haul to." So? Just because you're content to haul to station and refine doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to get my new shiny.


A new ship should have a definite role, and abilities designed to fill that role. It's not about tacking on abilities to make a new shiny.

If you want ore compression on the orca, show a case in high-sec where it would be genuinely useful, rather than just a "shiny".

Originally by: Xavier Iblis
The other bit is the freighter idea puts it out of reach of a lot of smaller corps. Scraping together 1bil for a big ship is one thing... Scraping together 2bil for 2 big ships is another.


Frankly, if you're mining enough to justify an Orca in the group in the first place, you're mining enough to justify a freighter to haul to market. It is the high-end of mining, it's not supposed to be cheap or easy to get to.

The orca as I propose would also still be effective if used without a freighter, just not as effective. A freighter-sized secure container that can tractor from anywhere in the belt and apply gang bonuses still sounds plenty useful to me, even if you're emptying it with haulers (who now only have one place to go instead of half a dozen cans spread across the belt).

Tokuji Hayakawa
Posted - 2008.01.15 10:07:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: Tokuji Hayakawa on 15/01/2008 10:16:34
Edited by: Tokuji Hayakawa on 15/01/2008 10:13:07
Edited by: Tokuji Hayakawa on 15/01/2008 10:09:08
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Tokuji Hayakawa
Not to harp on here but without the ability to Reduce Ores,by either compression or refining,this ship will be worthless for Ice Mining.
Its ok to talk in terms of normal ores but what of Ice,it should address all forms of mining,not just mineral ores.
I still stand by letting it refine in space and allow frieghters to dock,no need for compression then.


Putting ice refining ability on the ship would make it massively overpowered compared to the POS refining arrays, unless you significantly nerfed the refining yield, at which point it becomes an unattractive option and would be largely pointless.

For high-sec, the situation is entirely the same as for ore - there's no point compressing the ice, because 99% of the time you'll only be hauling the ice direct from the belt to the station within the same system. Simply allowing the freighter to load up from the orca in-belt is a far more effective way of boosting this stage.

For low-sec/0.0, any compression ability should be on the Rorqual, not the orca. We don't need an entirely new ship just for ice.

And again, if you want to be able to compress the refined ice products for further transport, that can be handled in normal manufacturing facilities (either station or POS based), there's no need for it to happen in the belt.

No it won't

There are no POS refining arrays in high sec,and you get 100% yield from low/0.0 sec POS's anyway,so I fail to see how this can be massively overpowered.

If what you mean are the taxes paid to the Station refineries in high sec,well that is simply solved by paying your taxes to the O.R.E,syndicate,instead.
It makes no real difference to which NPC faction you pay your taxes as they are just Isk Sinks.

Every pilot I have spoken to that mines Ice has a perfect refine at the station,this is some 20+ pilots.
If you are serious about mining ice on a frequent basis you almost have to do this.
But to respond to your post,an Orca's refine rate can be tied to the Refining skills tree,as it is for station refining.
So Refining can be solved,paying the relevant taxes to NPC's can be solved.

Freighters,yes they are good for picking up ore but not Ice Ore,if you have mined Ice in any decent sized gang you would know the problem miners have with the size of the unrefined blocks.
A freighter is simply insufficient to haul Ice Blocks,Indys are better,for gangs.
The Orca needs some way to reduce Ice ore for hauling,wether by Compression or refining.
Personally as i've said before I prefer refining just because CCP don't seem to want compression in high sec.
(Oh and please don't misinterpret and misrepresent my posts,I want the Orca for all kinds of high sec mining,it just so happens I mine ice and my problems lie with that).

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2008.01.15 10:48:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Tokuji Hayakawa
There are no POS refining arrays in high sec,and you get 100% yield from low/0.0 sec POs's anyway,so I fail to see how this can be massively overpowered.


ok, lets put it another way. It's going to have to be overpowered if it's going to be used.

Originally by: Tokuji Hayakawa
If what you mean are the taxes paid to the Station refineries in high sec,well that is simply solved by paying your taxes to the O.R.E,sydicate,instead.
It makes no real difference to which NPC faction you pay your taxes as they are just Isk Sinks.


Well, apart from the fact that refinery taxes are stuff sinks, not isk sinks, who you pay the tax to does matter. It's why any decent refiner will have 6.67 standings to the corp (note it's corp standings that count, not faction standings) owning the station he refines in. Getting standings with ORE is basically a non-starter unless you're the alliance in control of Outer Ring, which instantly makes any ORE-taxed location a non-preferred option.

Originally by: Tokuji Hayakawa
But to respond to your post,an Orca's refine rate can be tied to the Refining skills tree,as it is for station refining.


Yes, it can. But where do you set the balance? How much does it cost to run a refining cycle, and how long does it take?

Where is the gap these ships can fit into?

If you make the refining yield in the ship any less than in the station, then the loss will likely make it more efficient to haul to the station in high-sec.

If you make the refining yield match the station (i.e. 100% for skilled char), then it's in direct competition with the POS refining array in terms of mobile refining resources.

If you make the refining instant, it's overpowered compared to the refining arrays which take time. But if you make it take time, that pilot time may as well have been spent in normal hauling/mining while the refinery array is churning.

I can't see a big enough gap in current refining provision to justify a new ship to fill it.

Originally by: Tokuji Hayakawa
Frieghters,yes they are good for picking up ore but not Ice Ore,if you have mined Ice in any decent sized gang you would know the problem miners have with the size of the unrefined blocks.
A freighter is simply insufficient to haul Ice Blocks,Indys are better,for gangs.


A ship with 750k+ m3 of cargo space is worse for hauling large blocks than a ship with up to approx 35k m3? Shocked

Surely the larger cargo would help with the large size of the blocks, as you would waste less space with the "not quite enough space for the last block" problem. Also the ability to consolidate (remember the nice big tractor beams) the output from your individual miners into one giant hold would help to manage these blocks.

Yes, a freighter is slower than an indy. But it can still shift vastly more m3 per player hour than any industrial ship.


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