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Linlin Soheboshidas
Gallente
le souffle d'EREVOS..
Posted - 2007.10.30 14:06:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Linlin Soheboshidas on 30/10/2007 14:22:35
Why do you want a new capital who do the same things than the old ? oO
Allow Rorqual to go in high sec would be faster :p

I agree with Thorbjorn, a command ship would be better.

*Linlin dreams*

Quote:
Blabla

Command Ships Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per level.
3% bonus to bonus to effectiveness of mining foreman gang links per level.


Role Bonus:
99% reduction in Warfare Link module CPU need. Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously.

Command Ships Skill Bonus or Role Bonus ?
??% bonus to Tractor Beams range (per level) ---> up to 100km?


And if we keep the remote shield bonus of the Rorqual:
??% bonus to Shield Transport range ---> up to 50km?
??% reduction in Shield Transport capacitor use
??% CPU need for Shield Transporters
(like basilisk because a command ship haven't as much capa as a capital ship)


It's not a Capital ship so:
No Clone Vat Bay
No Capital Tractor Beam
No Jump Capability
No Corp Hangar
No Ship Maintenance Bay

It's not a Rorqual so:
No ORE compression

It's not a Mining Ship so:
No Miner

It's not a Hauler so:
Normal cargo Capacity

Quote:
???

Quote:
Mining Barge V
--Astrogeology III
----Science IV
--Mining II
----Industry II

Command Ships I
--Battlecruisers V
----Spaceship Command IV
--Warfare Link Specialist IV
----Leadership V
--Spaceship Command V

Logistics IV
--Spaceship Command III
--Signature Analysis V
----Electronics I
--Long Range Targenting V
----Electronics II

Quote:
CPU : 600 ~
PWG : 1000 ~
Calibration : 400
Low : 4
Med : 6
High : 7
Launcher : 0
Turret : 0
Upgrade : 2

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2007.10.30 17:24:00 - [32]
 

I vote for a Industrial Coordination ship:

- Give it the ability to fit links, with a bonus to foreman links. This will be useful in both high-sec and 0.0, as it will give a cheaper, smaller ship to help out the gangs.
- Give it either the ability to fit the capital tractor, some larger tractor (medium? large?), or a tractor range bonus. The single bigger can isn't realy all that necessary, as the foreman should be able to just pull in each miner's jetcans when full, and have them sitting there collected for the haulers to pick up.
- Give it the ability to scan a much larger area. Either a new Survey scanner, or more practically, just a big boost to survey scanner range. Then the foreman can prioritize target rocks through Gang Tagging.

It doens't need to compress ore, it doesn't need to have a massive hold, there just needs to be a non capital way to better organize a mining op, and this would fill that mising role.

The rorqual for small mining ops is like using a sledghammer on a push pin.

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2007.10.30 17:43:00 - [33]
 

I simply don't understand why they wouldn't have ore compressing, that's clearly the only reason to make a high-sec version.

Spending billions for what 2% more on ganglinks? whoopdidoo.

lpha centurion
Confrerie des ombres
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.30 18:12:00 - [34]
 

Ore compressing or lots of cargo is the same thing in fact.
I personaly think that miners in high sec need a capital-sized ship (like the freighter [only by the size]) which can be able to hold ores.
Ore compressing is a good solution because it prevent people to hold other things (like POS components, ammos and other).

What we really need, is just a ship that stays in belt during mining operations collect the ore containing in the diferent cans.

I would give an example:

Quote:

Imagine a belt (waooo that's not too hard to imagine ^^), in that belt, on both side, there are 2 teams composed of 3 hulks.
2 teams, 2 cans full of ores.
And imagine, the new orca, in the center of that belt, tracting those cans and compressing the ore.



That's the main job I'd give it.

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2007.10.30 18:53:00 - [35]
 

Well, Ore compressing has nothing do the cargo capacity of the Rorqual. I mean, of course it does, but follow me here. What if you don't compress ore so that the Rorqual can hold more, but rather hi-sec miners compress ore so that OTHER ships can carry more. Which is a marginal point right now, but will become absolutely 1,000% more relevant when module compression no longer exists.

You can use the Rorqual as a mini-jump freighter, yes, but that's only one of hundreds of possible uses for compressed ore.

Falka Lakadaka
Gallente
Posted - 2007.10.30 22:30:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Pwett
Well, Ore compressing has nothing do the cargo capacity of the Rorqual. I mean, of course it does, but follow me here. What if you don't compress ore so that the Rorqual can hold more, but rather hi-sec miners compress ore so that OTHER ships can carry more. Which is a marginal point right now, but will become absolutely 1,000% more relevant when module compression no longer exists.

You can use the Rorqual as a mini-jump freighter, yes, but that's only one of hundreds of possible uses for compressed ore.


Why carry compressed ore around in High Sec? Why not refine and carry minerals? It's high sec, there are plenty of stations with refineries.

I'd like to see something that's able to give mining bonuses (like a mining command ship), tractor bonus, ore scanning bonus (to be able to direct the hulks to the right asteroids) and a large cargo capacity (10 Jetcans would be good).

The mining command ship could hand out bonuses, and store multiple jetcans worth of ore, jettisoning a single hauler size load each time a hauler shows up. Afterall, we want the gang boss to be doing something, like scanning for new roids, dolling out hauler loads, tanking and generally taking command. Let's make it worthwhile to have an active gang boss in a command ship, the more work he does, the better the fleet performs.


Tommy Meow
Posted - 2007.10.31 01:20:00 - [37]
 

Ya all realize that if Orca ever comes out this would mean the end to the caped low-ends in EVE?

The only way something like this is feasible is if the cap on prices is completely removed and the prices would only be answerable to market forces, and not to NPC Shuttle/Repro Prices.

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2007.10.31 03:34:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Pwett on 31/10/2007 03:42:40
Edited by: Pwett on 31/10/2007 03:37:42 - had to get build cost for a mom

Originally by: Falka Lakadaka

Why carry compressed ore around in High Sec? Why not refine and carry minerals? It's high sec, there are plenty of stations with refineries.



*Pwett shouts 'To Get it into 0.0!'* Aaagggghhhhh Laughing

Don't you understand? Minerals are now compressed into modules and brought to 0.0 en masse to build caps and super caps. With module compression nerfed there is going to be a drastic NEED to get these minerals into 0.0. Listen, the amount of trit it takes to build one Mom is equal to the total amount of trit that changes hands in ALL minmatar regions (2 major trade hubs) in two days - 1.5 Billion trit. Now it's turned into JPGs or Passive Targeters and shipped to 0.0 in carrier fleets or jump gated freighters.

Typheonic
Gallente
Posted - 2007.10.31 19:40:00 - [39]
 

The Orca needs mineral compression for the reason Pwett puts forward, definately.

The main consumer of empire mined low-end minerals is 0.0. As a miner I would be putting stacks of compressed veldspar and scordite on the market to sell to alliances moving minerals to 0.0 to be used in construction. The introduction of compression in empire space is also an excellent way to deal with the jet can mining method. From the time I started flying a barge I've dreamed of a ship that can carry an entire can worth of ore away at once. With a maxed out top tier industrial I get that, but while they sit there doing nothing it would be nice to have them working on something.

I would look for the Orca to be an industrial ship that can provide one or two of the gang links, on site compression of ore, and secondary support like remote shield boosting. Give it a decent cargo hold so with compression it can stay on station with at least 2 Hulks working. It could also get some drone bonuses or at least a respectable drone bay to help provide NPC defense for the mining crew.

Aykido
Gallente
Lobster of Babel
Posted - 2007.11.01 05:44:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Aykido on 01/11/2007 05:45:06
If the Orca can compress ore, the Rorqual will become 0.0 only. As a cheaper alternative the Orca would dominate both Empire and low sec.

Personally I think a Mining Director Command Ship is much more useful as the Empire mining ops co-ordinator.

Pre reqs BC 5 and Mining Barge 5
+100% range bonus to tractors per level of CS
+100% range bonus to survey scanners per level of mining barge
+3% bonus to mining gang links per level of CS
can fit 3 gang links
Role bonus 99% reduction in gang link CPU

Since it wouldn't have any weapon bonus,
it could either have a protection bonus like
shield emission (+20% range/level of BC and +20% transfer amount/level of CS)
or drone bonus (+20% yield/damage per level of BC and +20% hit points/level of CS)

This is the ship I would rather have than some empire bastard version of the Rorqual.

lpha centurion
Confrerie des ombres
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.01 09:16:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: lpha centurion on 01/11/2007 09:23:05
Quote:
+100% range bonus to tractors per level of CS


Why not, but without a decent cargohold, this would be unuseful. Its tasks would then be to tract all the cans at the same point, all indus can do it.

Moreover, we already have command ship that can help during mining operations.

What we (my corporation at least) need is a ship that can tract cans, put the content into its cargo [lets say 100-150k m3 or ore compressing system) and maybe, as you said, having some mining bonuses (by fitting some leadership modules).

Maybe we can restrict rorqual to some empire ores. In other words, you can't put all ores in the cargo. Let's say it can only holds Veldspar (lol), Scordite, Pyroxeres, Plagioclasse, Kernite, Omber, Jaspet.


Difference with the rorqual :
- Cannot jump drive (can only uses stargates)
- Has no Clone vat bay
- Cannot fit capital sized items (like capital remote armor repairer) [except the large tractor beam]

- Do not need the "Jump Drive Operation" skill



The orca could need the same skills as the rorqual ?

lpha centurion
Confrerie des ombres
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.01 09:36:00 - [42]
 

Mhhh Chronotis, we'd like to know your opinion about all these ideas ! ^^

Typheonic
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.01 13:37:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Aykido
Edited by: Aykido on 01/11/2007 05:45:06
If the Orca can compress ore, the Rorqual will become 0.0 only. As a cheaper alternative the Orca would dominate both Empire and low sec.


I'm not entirely sure how this is a problem. As it is alliance members seem to believe the Rorqual is the exclusive domain of 0.0 deep space mining. I don't entirely agree, but if a ship not in the billion ISK range turned up with ore compression and using jump gates instead of a jump drive I would be in line to buy one. The Rorqual is overkill for a lot of empire based corporations.

Originally by: Aykido
Personally I think a Mining Director Command Ship is much more useful as the Empire mining ops co-ordinator.

Pre reqs BC 5 and Mining Barge 5
+100% range bonus to tractors per level of CS
+100% range bonus to survey scanners per level of mining barge
+3% bonus to mining gang links per level of CS
can fit 3 gang links
Role bonus 99% reduction in gang link CPU

Since it wouldn't have any weapon bonus,
it could either have a protection bonus like
shield emission (+20% range/level of BC and +20% transfer amount/level of CS)
or drone bonus (+20% yield/damage per level of BC and +20% hit points/level of CS)

This is the ship I would rather have than some empire bastard version of the Rorqual.



It seems like what you're describing here is a modified fleet command ship. One could argue that fleet command ships are already close enough to this to be useful as a mining director. Even battlecruisers can successfully fill this role for small operations as it is now. The biggest thing your described ship is lacking is ore handling of some kind. Compression makes the most sense to reduce the number of hauler trips for an operation and the side benefit of compressed ore for export to 0.0.

I'm not sure the Orca should be looked at as a bastard of the Rorqual. Instead it is a logical step before a Rorqual where groups that cannot risk or cannot raise over a billion ISK can go.

Fatsam
Madhatters Inc.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.11.01 13:52:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Fatsam on 01/11/2007 13:53:08
Considering high sec is much more profitable to mine than low sec, and considerably easier, is it really a good idea to give the high sec miners more tools to make even more money?

Last time I checked veldspar made more money than all the low sec ores and even some 0.0 ores.

If the general intention of CCP is to populate low sec, this will only help do the opposite.

Sorry to go against the grain, its only my opinion.

Typheonic
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.01 14:30:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Fatsam
Edited by: Fatsam on 01/11/2007 13:53:08
Considering high sec is much more profitable to mine than low sec, and considerably easier, is it really a good idea to give the high sec miners more tools to make even more money?

Last time I checked veldspar made more money than all the low sec ores and even some 0.0 ores.

If the general intention of CCP is to populate low sec, this will only help do the opposite.

Sorry to go against the grain, its only my opinion.


Fatsam, in general you're right in that more money can be made mining in high-sec when compared to low-sec, but what are the reasons behind that? Veldspar can be found anywhere and generally in greater supply in low-sec so why don't people mine in low-sec for veldspar and the other money making ores popular in high-sec? As it stands now in my opinion the problems with low-sec cannot be made any worse by the addition of a mining director ship like the Orca. It might help mitigate the risks that keep miners out of low-sec since it can be used there as well. I could also say that if you give industrialists ships which can withstand the rigors and frequency of low-sec PvP encounters it might go a long way toward mitigation of the mountain of low-sec risk.

So far I have yet to see anything introduced by CCP in the last few patches to suggest that they are trying to encourage people to go to low-sec space. I'm not saying that they don't want people there, just that their actions haven't supported that assertion. At any rate I would say the issues of low-sec population might be better discussed in another thread.

Vlad Dakovnovich
Posted - 2007.12.13 09:41:00 - [46]
 

Is this thing on sisi yet or is it too soon after trinity for them to start worrying about this.



CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2007.12.13 11:25:00 - [47]
 

Too soon yet :) But we are reading all the ideas from everyone.

Xaildaine
Posted - 2007.12.13 12:08:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Xaildaine on 13/12/2007 12:15:08
In order for a mining command ship type to be usefull it needs big fat boni. Not just a couple of % per lvl but rather lots of %.
Other wise you end up in the situation we have now, in that its more effective to just have another barge rather that the command ship. I think it only becomes better to have a comand ship over an extra barge once you get over the 10 barges in the gang or somthing.
And adding a Big Fat bonus to raw mining could have bad effects on the market.

Better than changeing the Raw minning yeild per hr is a Logistics buff.


In order for me to want to use this ship it needs to solve a problem.

My main problem is Hauling and trying to anchor cans at an already over crowded belt.
A Highsec mining Ship only needs 2 things.. big cargobay + cap tractor beems ...already its usefull.
Anything more is just cream.

You could argue that just fixing can spam and alowing us access to larger anchorable cans would a more sensable fix but.. CCP hasnt done this so far.. they are not likely to now..

Leave ore compression .. leave clonebays .. we dont need it.. its empire.

The only issue i can see with this is that people who haul ore for a living will be out of work once their corp gets one of these.
BUT lets not forget that they are all just Hauler alts anyway so who realy cares.
TBH i cant see CCP doing it as it may upset the delicate ballance of 2 accts per miner.


One thing that could be fun is a Minging Drone Capship with "Miners" rather that fighters.
Give it a minnig drone bonus and the ability to assign mining drones like a carrier assigns Fighters.
Again with the Large cargo hold and Cap tractors.
Of corse this would require the invention of a new mining Drone class.

But whatever it ends up being.. please make it usefull to, and attainable for small corps. Not everyone wants to be in the Zerg..


What im looking forward to is a real salvage boat

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2007.12.13 13:56:00 - [49]
 

The purpose of this ship feels like it should be to encourage mining in groups in empire. There are two main limiting factors on mining groups - hauling and gang bonus break-even points.

Hauling tends to define the limit for a "proper" group, which is a grouping of 1 hauler and enough barges to keep it shuttling to the station full-time during the op. Once you get beyond this, it really forms into seperate operating cells that don't gain much, if anything, from working with other cells.

The gang-bonus breakeven point is currently quite high, you need quite a large group to make it worthwhile. But this requirement for a larger group doesn't really eliminate the "cells" problem induced by hauling. As gang bonuses apply system-wide, the cells do not have to work together beyond agreeing to join the same fleet.

Making the orca a ship that can provide gang bonuses and assist in hauling is the best way to resolve both of these. By making the orca a high-capacity hauling centre, it encourages the whole group to come together around it, rather than splintering into individual cells around individual haulers. Even if it is not massively more effective in the gang bonuses over a normal BC, it's dual-role would make it more desirable in the group and reduce the overall break-even point for having it.

So, how to make it a high-capacity hauling centre. If you just give it a massive cargohold, it becomes a mini-freighter with gang bonuses, rather than a mining foreman ship. It is also bad if a gang-boosting ship needs to warp and dock to facilitate hauling, as this interrupts the gang bonuses. If you give it ore compression, it moves into direct competition with the Rorqual. While there are good arguments for having a way to compress ore in high-sec, high-sec does not have the pressing reasons present in low-sec for this to occur in the belt, so should probably be provided elsewhere.

My favoured option would be giving it a Storage Core, that works in a similar way to the Industrial Core, but with very low running costs. This would immobilize the ship in return for enabling a corp hangar array with capacity similar to that of a freighter, and enabling the ability for a freighter to make pick-ups from that corp hangar array. If the ship exited Storage Mode with stuff still in the corp hangar, these items would be automatically jettisoned into cans as the corp hangar array became disabled.

The ship would also need long-range tractor beam ability to be able to consolidate the mining of a whole belt into this storage array. Requiring haulers to bring the ore to the array would be pointless as the haulers would be quicker just warping back to the station.

The ship would need sufficient tanking to be able to withstand a ganking long enough for concord (or a player escort in the case of a wardec) to respond. This maight take the form of HP or resistance bonuses from Storage Mode, as the ship will be holding significantly more value in that mode (personally I think the rorqual needs a bit more of this for it's Industrial Mode as well). I wouldn't give it any significant offensive ability though, to prevent it being combat effective in it's own right.

This would give a good incentive for the whole group to mine in the same belt, in order to consolidate the hauling and significantly reduce the number of haulers required. It would also promote the use of skilled miners and a skilled hauler in the mining group, rather than stacks of alt haulers.

I do not think such a ship needs any mining output of it's own, it's role should be to make the barges more efficient and replacing haulers (which weren't mining anyway), not to replace the barges.

Because of it's effective help in hauling, it wouldn't necessarily need gang link bonuses beyond the ability to fit all the foreman links at once. This would also leave the Rorqual able to offer an extra advantage.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2007.12.13 14:13:00 - [50]
 

This method would give a ship that could provide the core of a high-sec mining group, without being a direct "mini-rorqual", and this in direct competition with it. Both would have a different unique ability, and one that is relatively more useful in it's "native" high or low-sec environment.

As for high-sec ore compression. Personally, I don't think there's a need to compress the ore directly. The primary reason to compress ore should be to get it to the nearest refinery, a function that has very limited applicability to high-sec due to the abundance of stations.

The main need for it expressed seems to be to ease transportation of minerals long distances (esp into 0.0). If this is the aim, then direct mineral compression abilities would be better than ore compression. These would be by proper, balanced methods, rather than the module-based tricks that are beeing weeded out. You'd just have a set of blueprints for "Compressed Tritanium" etc that offered similar compression ratios to the compressed ores, requiring as input the minerals to be compressed and some amount of ice products as "reactants", to be an equivalent of the rorqual fuel usage (it would be important to ensure these ice products did not come back out when you refined it back into normal trit). These could then be manufactured in any NPC production line, or an appropriate POS array.

This would leave the Rorqual the more effective option for compressing for the belt->refinery journey while offering an alternative pathway for high-sec sources and already-refined minerals.

Trilium Eagle
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2007.12.13 15:43:00 - [51]
 

Reading all this propositions is nice.. as It's my role currently to give gang bonuses on mining ops.

I would opt for some thing in lines of smaller Rorqual with:
- nice corp hangar (or specialised ore hangar)
- mining foreman link bonus
- tractor and scanner range bonuses ( for miners coordination when needed )
- possibly ore compression ( this may be good to get your ore compressed to null sec )

Giving bonus from one bc with proper skills and mind link actual break even barrier is about 3 Hulks.
Only problem is lack of any other support that you can give. Npc defence isn't really much needed in high sec. Orca constructed like mentioned earlier would give more functions to perform when overseeing mining op.
I'm even ready to skill Mining Barges to 5 and ore processing skills if needed ( don't have any atm).

Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
Posted - 2007.12.13 15:43:00 - [52]
 

I would like to see the Orca as a ship that made ice mining a bit easier and manageable.

Given the cycle times, the size of ice and very low yield of each unit of ice, ice mining has to be one of the most boring things to do in the game. Most people I know who engage in it do it while watching TV or doing something else on another computer nearby.

I would love to see the Orca as a capital variant of the Mackinaw. It should not be able to mine faster than a Mackinaw, but with a much larger cargo bay, allowing at least an hour of uninterrupted mining.

Viilaa
Caldari
Posted - 2007.12.13 16:17:00 - [53]
 

Heck I would be happy to have the following:


1 turret slot for a miner of some sort - it gets boring when everyone else is mining and you just get to watch

2+ high slots for tractors

the other slots don't really matter

And the thing all miners really want.... a HUGE cargobay.. Not 20k.. Heck an industrial can almost fit that. But a real cargo bay... something like 500k.. Make it so only ore can be put in it if you want to limit its role to mining only.. But without a huge bay (or compression) there is no real need for a new ship imo. Even if you give +20% bonus to mining we miners have the same problem... where do we put the ore while we mine ?

Viilaa

Aarin Wrath
Caldari
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2007.12.13 20:44:00 - [54]
 

Hmmm what I would like to see:

What it has:
-bonus to effectiveness of mining foreman gang links per level
-99% reduction in Warfare Link module CPU need
-can run 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously
-Bonus to drones per level. (really its only defence)
-ability or introduction of large tractor beams which perhaps only it can fit (say a range of 100km, some belts are pretty big), or even just a bonus to tractor range per level
-two or three high slots for tractor beams
-a couple mid and low slots for a semi-tank, maybe on par with the hulks tank. Enough to hold off rat spawns, even 0.0 ones ... but not enough to stop a decent pvp pilot from ruining a miners day
-ore compression, or some limited form of it (see reasoning below)
-a decent hold, maybe 50,000 (see reasoning below)
-maybe slightly worse than battleship level agility

What it doesn't have:
-no clone vat
-no capital tractor
-no jump ability
-no corp. hanger
-no ship maintenance
-no turret slots or missile hard points

Notes:
1. Why allow ore compression? it would allow large gangs of barges to be supported by one hauler, instead of a fleet of them. As it stands, 3 hulks can make a single haulers life pretty tiring. With compression one hauler could handle the incoming ore of several hulks. It could be a limited form of compression, perhaps a much slower compression rate than a Roqual (50%) but it still would be very helpful. This will also facilitate mining in high sec systems where no stations exists, and also make lowsec mining abit more ... reasonable.
(right now you more or less need a POS in a lowsec system to store your ore, and hide at, a in sys station is not a viable place since you are just too easy a target)
Also, I would add that the main feature of the roqual is ore compression, so it stands to reason that its little brother should have some limited form of the same ability.

2.Why a decent 50,000 hold? yes this presents the problem of creating a mini freighter.
Well for one, Industrialists have been wanting one for a long time. Check the Features forum.
I would also present the fact that such a ship is going to be colossally expensive to use as a mini freighter. Assuming it goes for 500-800 mill or so, well you might as well get a real freighter. And 50k isn't that much really, but combined with ore compression it would enable it to compress and store the ore of a decent barge gang for a decent period of time.

Well that's what I would like to see anyways.

p.s as for those who are worried about such a ship bieng a boon to macro miniers, well yes that is a possibility, but I do not that that sole reason is enough to not create such a ship. (might as well remove barges from the game). CCP has procedures in place to deal with macro miners and they are doing what they can.

Riley Craven
Caldari
Raata Invicti
Reckoning.
Posted - 2007.12.13 23:21:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Riley Craven on 13/12/2007 23:25:28
Edited by: Riley Craven on 13/12/2007 23:22:08
Originally by: Jacque Custeau
I would like to see the Orca as a ship that made ice mining a bit easier and manageable.

Given the cycle times, the size of ice and very low yield of each unit of ice, ice mining has to be one of the most boring things to do in the game. Most people I know who engage in it do it while watching TV or doing something else on another computer nearby.

I would love to see the Orca as a capital variant of the Mackinaw. It should not be able to mine faster than a Mackinaw, but with a much larger cargo bay, allowing at least an hour of uninterrupted mining.


0/ Thankfully I dont think CCP would ever make a ship like that. Just about every change they make is trying to get players to play the game more, not encourage AFK play.

The problems with ice mining remains, but I think I have a rather simple solution to that, instead of mining a whole chunk of ice, ships would mine shards of ice and have a drastically reduced cycle time. You have to get a couple shards of ice to make a refine just like you do with ore. IE. shards weigh 100m3 and you need 10 of them for refine. You still get the barge restriction though because only the ice lasers can mine ice still.

Its still just as boring as mining regular ore, but at least that way doesnt encourage afk play. Sadly, I dont think CCP will do this either as they tend to be ingrained in their evil ways of making this game less fun for everyone.


That might help solve your problem the way you put it, but the real problem is not the above in my opinion. The real reason I think mining ice is an AFK endevor is because the roids never die. You could practically mine the same roid for eternity and it would never die. In regular mining you constantly have to switch roids, and this is especially true if you mine in high sec with barges. The problem is if they change them not to be that way then they would have to change some other things to, because as it stands now not having to loose time between laser cycles is really the only saving grace keeping ice products profitable.


Riley Craven
Caldari
Raata Invicti
Reckoning.
Posted - 2007.12.13 23:34:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Aarin Wrath
Hmmm what I would like to see:
Notes:
1. Why allow ore compression? it would allow large gangs of barges to be supported by one hauler, instead of a fleet of them. As it stands, 3 hulks can make a single haulers life pretty tiring. With compression one hauler could handle the incoming ore of several hulks. It could be a limited form of compression, perhaps a much slower compression rate than a Roqual (50%) but it still would be very helpful. This will also facilitate mining in high sec systems where no stations exists, and also make lowsec mining abit more ... reasonable.
(right now you more or less need a POS in a lowsec system to store your ore, and hide at, a in sys station is not a viable place since you are just too easy a target)
Also, I would add that the main feature of the roqual is ore compression, so it stands to reason that its little brother should have some limited form of the same ability.

2.Why a decent 50,000 hold? yes this presents the problem of creating a mini freighter.
Well for one, Industrialists have been wanting one for a long time. Check the Features forum.
I would also present the fact that such a ship is going to be colossally expensive to use as a mini freighter. Assuming it goes for 500-800 mill or so, well you might as well get a real freighter. And 50k isn't that much really, but combined with ore compression it would enable it to compress and store the ore of a decent barge gang for a decent period of time.

Well that's what I would like to see anyways.

p.s as for those who are worried about such a ship bieng a boon to macro miniers, well yes that is a possibility, but I do not that that sole reason is enough to not create such a ship. (might as well remove barges from the game). CCP has procedures in place to deal with macro miners and they are doing what they can.


I have to say you offer a pretty decent reason to include ore compression on this ship. I think perhaps that you might be on to something. This ship for one doesnt have the jump drive of the rorq and two isnt likely to compress high end ore like the rorqual does. So while you could use the orca in 0.0, it wouldnt really make sense too because the rorq does the job better (has a ship bay, and a jump drive and clone vats) Giving it this capability would balance the economies between 0.0 and empire.

The equation would be rorq compress high ends to empire and orca compress low ends for 0.0.

This is really important because in reality neither economy should be totally self sufficient. For eve to truely function, they both have to be dependent on each other in different ways. Some things you should only get in empire and some things you should only get in 0.0. It forces a perpetual cycle that forces players to work together.

Riley Craven
Caldari
Raata Invicti
Reckoning.
Posted - 2007.12.13 23:42:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Riley Craven on 14/12/2007 00:06:47
Edited by: Riley Craven on 13/12/2007 23:50:04
Originally by: Matthew

As for high-sec ore compression. Personally, I don't think there's a need to compress the ore directly. The primary reason to compress ore should be to get it to the nearest refinery, a function that has very limited applicability to high-sec due to the abundance of stations.

The main need for it expressed seems to be to ease transportation of minerals long distances (esp into 0.0). If this is the aim, then direct mineral compression abilities would be better than ore compression. These would be by proper, balanced methods, rather than the module-based tricks that are beeing weeded out. You'd just have a set of blueprints for "Compressed Tritanium" etc that offered similar compression ratios to the compressed ores, requiring as input the minerals to be compressed and some amount of ice products as "reactants", to be an equivalent of the rorqual fuel usage (it would be important to ensure these ice products did not come back out when you refined it back into normal trit). These could then be manufactured in any NPC production line, or an appropriate POS array.

This would leave the Rorqual the more effective option for compressing for the belt->refinery journey while offering an alternative pathway for high-sec sources and already-refined minerals.


I can understand what you saying, but the real problem was that CCP is changing all the wrong things. Markets need to depend on each other to succed imo (I give you something you need and you give me something I need). While I agree with you that mineral compression would be better, I dont think that would be a good idea. The primary reason is that it would allow you to compress all minerals and that would allow you to easily transport things anywhere no matter what the sec rating is. So in reality if you gave the orca that ability there would be no reason to soley keep the orca in high sec as it could compress refined minerals in an 0.0 refinery station and then bring the compressed minerals to an 0.0 manufacturing station. That puts it more in direct competition with the rorq than you realize mate. (of course this assumes that you could actually used compressed minerals in manufacturing jobs)

The equation needs to be compress low end ore in high sec and compress high end ore in 0.0 and trade the two. The only way to achieve this is if you give the orca a compression bay, because its not likely that people are going to be stupid enough to bring in low sec ore to compress in high sec.

Not only that but think about this: would it really make sense to move a slow moving cap ship through jumpgates (ala freighter moving speed) through low sec and 0.0 just to compress ore when there is already a ship that has a jump drive to get you there in almost absolute safety? That reason alone is why it wont really be direct compeition to the rorq. Sure some people are going to be stupid enough to do it maybe because of it beinger cheaper... but it also has the disadvantage of being a big fat target to gankers... and you know how they love popping things.

Riley Craven
Caldari
Raata Invicti
Reckoning.
Posted - 2007.12.13 23:54:00 - [58]
 

P.S. to CCP I think my above three posts illustrate the exact kind of thinking that players want to see in dev blogs (i.e. that there is actual thought plied to game changes instead of statements like carrier != hauler) CCP can not afford not to have more transparency at this stage of the game. I have yet to see reasonable reasons for half the changes made in trinity and this more than anything has ****ed alot of people off.

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2007.12.14 00:12:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Pwett on 14/12/2007 00:17:56
Well written Riley,

But I will say this again. the Orca NEEDS ore compression. The only place that NEEDS ore compression is high-sec, not null sec.

I lived in 0.0, I never compressed 0.0 ore to bring to high-sec. I refined it and sold the minerals. But I had passive targeter production lines running 23/7 to get tritanium to 0.0. Because the 0.0 industry NEEDS the trit fuel.

Oh, I think that the requirement of mining barge to V is stupid for the Rorqual. It is not a mining ship. These ships need requirements more in line with a command ship. Heck, why not command ships V? My fleet commander has warfarelink V, mining director v, command ships V, etc but if I'm going to spend the time to get him into covetor, why not spend the extra 3 days and get him in a hulk?

Regardless, all of this is moot, just make a POS compression module anchorable in high-sec. Problem solved.

Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
Posted - 2007.12.14 05:17:00 - [60]
 

There already is an Orc A. Ask BOB. YARRRR!!


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