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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2007.10.23 17:28:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Mamarto
Originally by: Deva Blackfire

UH.... you dont use tachys on abaddon for missions. You use t2 megapulses + scorch...


You use tech 2 ammo on missions? Shocked


Yep. You run missions way faster and need to buy new set per 10-20 missions or so. Thats 8mil/10-20missoins you can spare for abt 40% faster running em. (comparing damage of scorch to microwave)

Matalino
Posted - 2007.10.23 17:30:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Mamarto
You use tech 2 ammo on missions? Shocked
With these new ships you will use half the ammo, and half the penalties.

I think I will start using in now.

Trass
Caldari
Lamb Federation Navy
Posted - 2007.10.23 17:30:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Elmicker
Originally by: Trass
Its a T2 version doing dmg like T1 version which cost 8-10x less.

Yes, but it'll tank at the same level as the T1 version fitted with mods worth 10-20x the cost of the ship. So it balances out.

You mean that slight shield boost bonus and poor res increase? Normal raven can tank pretty all lvl4 missions without faction fittings, and as for lvl5 both will be to weak.

shinsushi
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2007.10.23 17:31:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
A quick question,

Are you guys on drugs?

This is constructive. Something must be going on that is altering your perception of what is and isnt reality in order to suggest these changes.

No damage bonus on the paladin? Its a goddamned ****ing apoc with a tracking bonus and an extra mitank bonus and a double web, whop-de-****ing do! And the minnie ship is a maelstrom with a falloff bonus, Falloff?! Of all the things you could have thought to give a ship you choose the one that makes it pretty much do more damage at all ranges than the paladin will at? The Gallente get a Megathron with 8 turrets and an effective double web? You even have the audacity in your blog to say that capacitor use is reduced by half when the ship doesnt get a cap use bonus and is so using lasers at the standard 8 turret bonused rate? The golem is saved because at least the Raven does decent DPS, and the ship has a fantastic slot layout with semi-handy bonuses.

I mean you say you arent trying to create battleship HACs, but then you go right ahead and ****ing create battleship HACs! Except for one, that just blows, but i guess that fits right in with the Zealot. Even the blackops ships are like that! At least the new Geddon looks half decent compared to the others[if only for the absolutly ridiculous 17,000 powergrid even though it loses a med/low slot compared to the new uber scorp and uber dominix. Speaking of which, why do the sin and the widow get more mid/low slots than everyone else? And the Minmitar get an almost useless high slot with no launcher to go along with it?

Then you have the broadsword, onyx, and Phobos, I.E. ships that dont blow ass. They dont do a lot of damage, but at least they can do cruiser levels of damage. The devoter does less damage than an Omen, which does less damage than a MOA!

And this isnt even factoring the one frigate. One frigate to rule them, One frigate to find them, one frigate to, in the darkness of space web them from 20km because oh holy god what were you thinking?

Not saying the other frigates arent good[The Gallente one certianly is, easily second best], but the minnie one? Yea, its ****ing ridiculous, 391m/s, 4 meds, 3 lows, 20km web range?


QFT.

You guys know the really big difference between the Amarr covert ops and the marauder is one bonus? One freaking bonus!
(cloaking speed vs armor repper.)

Let me run it down for you.

(Paladin)4 turrets*2=8
(Redeemer)6 turrets/0.75=8

4 turrets of capuse + 25% cap bonus
6 turrets of capuse/50%

Not only that, the minnie BS has the same range/dmg as the amarr one now (both of which are absolutely pitiful compared to the Kronos.)

I mean WTF, I was right, you guys really do hate amarr.

Sub-standar EW frig: check
Sub-standard Heavy dictor: check
standard blackops: check
Sub-standar marauder: check.

shinsushi
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2007.10.23 17:34:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

Well while the paladin is not GREAT, it can fit 4 tachyons. Along with the 25% damage extra you have a ship that outdoes the abbadon on sniping (since it does not have the orrendous cap problems and a nice track bonus). What I dont get is the web bonuson a ship that is to be used MID range or long range.


CCP should change that bonus, or into teh traditional cap usage bonus (so this ship will at least be uber on capacitor) or anything else, really. Even target painter would help more.


What 25% extra damage? I don't see any damage bonus. This thing will in-fact be weaker than the abaddon (abaddon will even have better resistances after bonuses.)

Abaddon = better damage, better resistance
Paladin = better repper amount (WTF a gallente bonus?) and its full of fail.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2007.10.23 17:35:00 - [216]
 

One MAJOR thing. Damage types. Not only LOLadin gets lowest damage of em all its STUCK with stupid EM. So its stuck with sansha/blood/drones. You know what this means? I will take 3x heatsink abaddon/geddon over crap damage paladin anyday.

Fenderson
Posted - 2007.10.23 17:39:00 - [217]
 

my reactions:

Ewar Frigs

very nice all around. excellent addition to the game.


Heavy Dictors

Nice addition. I still need to know if they will work in lowsec, and if they will effect supercaps. also, do they only do a 1 point scramble, or is it infinite strength like a bubble?

Marauders

look nice i think, not sure if i will ever use one in pvp. nice for missioners.

Black Ops

without a covops cloak, these serve zero purpose other than to operate the jump portals. if a covops/recon gang were going deep into enemy territory, the black ops BS would probably log off as soon as the portal was no longer needed.

only exception to this will be the caldari black ops, which is far more useful than the others due to having an ewar bonus.

Dominator9987
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.10.23 17:48:00 - [218]
 

login screen is nice. Will help shortly.

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2007.10.23 17:50:00 - [219]
 

Edited by: TZeer on 23/10/2007 17:52:49
Cant speak much about the other black ops, but the widow looks promising.

But tbh, it needs a higher bonus to EW. 20% as the rook. That or they need to give the black ops the ability to use covert op cloaking. Fitting damps instead of jammers would be better on this ship with this ew bonus...


Scorpion and falcon are already a joke when it comes to jamming.

And the reason the falcon got less jamming power was cause their ability to warp while cloaked.

Now we get a ship with gimped ew bonus, and on top of that you need to train Black Op to lvl 5 to get the same jamming power as a scorpion or blackbird...

Edit:

The jump thingy and all is a nice touch... but as they stated:

Quote:
The resource consumption on the Black Ops jump drives and the Covert Jump Portal Generator is very high, so jump fuel logistics are a concern.


Not like you gonna jump people to death, and I guess when you have unleashed you load you need resupply...




Damion Zyne
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:00:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Damion Zyne
Why not scrap matari at all?

All our special race bonus is freely given to any other race. Web bonus, shieled boost bonus and target painter bonus (not that we ever wanted this bonus anywayVery Happy).

Now you say that this is not true and that we are the only ones to get a speed bonus.... on the Black Ops Phoon with the extremly high mass that is. A ship designed to use guns ... big guns... with crap tracking. Right, thats a great bonus.

The thing I always liked on matari ships is the diversity. Takes some training time, but hey, these ships are fun. Now lets have a look at all the new ships we got so far and we are about to get.

Maelstrom - all guns, all shield
Broadsword - kind of all guns, all shield
Phanter - all guns (T1 hull even had a missiles bonus), ok, give you that, its a gimped armor tank
Vargur - all guns and we are even kind of restricted to AC due to PG, all shield

Thank you ! Rolling Eyes


This some kind of joke? The new matari ships are awesome.

Best frigate in the game hands down.
A large autocannon ship with a falloff bonus full turrets, and a damage bonus?[60km falloff on barrage anyone?]
6/6/4 rupture?!?!?!
A cloaking battleship with a velocity bonus on the fastest and lightest?


Yes its the fastest /lightest Black Ops, that dont makes the bonus more usefull though cause its still heavy compaired to the other BS`s. Its not that you fight other Black Ops all the time, is it?

And yes, matari got out better this time than amarr. Still CCP gives away the racial EW (TP lol), the classic shield boost bonus and some sort of webbing bonus (another racial EW). You failed to see the point of my post (or maybe I failed at making clear what I mean). Its not like the new ships are bad, its just redefines matari as shield tanker with guns and at the same time we "lose" our racial EW.

Tara Yang
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:02:00 - [221]
 

before people start calling me a newb and flame me out of hell and back again. I'm not sure what i'm about to say is true. but defenders go 7500m/s. Cruise missiles go 3750, but with bs lvl5 you get a 50% increase in cruise missile speed with the skill missile projection at lvl4 you get another 10% increase. So 3750*(1,5)*(1,4)=7875m/s. shouldn't this make cruise missiles go faster then defenders and not hit hte cruise missiles? Again i'm not sure but more wondering?

Cadiz
Caldari
EXTERMINATUS.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:04:00 - [222]
 

The Golem seems to be a match made in heaven for the new redesigned torps.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:05:00 - [223]
 

emmm ... what to say ...

Gallente again got the best in both BS categories. Amarr are the worst. Minmatar OK. Caldari meh, but not that bad as Amarr.

I mean I like the Widow, but it should get either covops cloak or 20% ecm strength.

The Onyx will finaly make a cruiser sized HAM platform. It has the grid to do so. Tank with bonuses and 6 mids will be great ... 2 LSEs+ EM hardener + 4 lows ... I love that ship even before it hits TQ.

Law Enforcer
Still Undecided
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:10:00 - [224]
 

Edited by: Law Enforcer on 23/10/2007 18:11:01
the paladin needs to be rethought. it doesn't do anything particularly well.
1) sub par damage (abaddon does more dps)
2) cap amount bonus when it should be a regen bonus.
3) sub par tanking (abaddon gets better resists after bonus)

why is a t2 ship tanking less and doing less dps then a t1 counter part? I don't care if it's a tier 3 battleship.
this is tech 2 battleship.
and wtf is going on with the kronos doing nearly 2000 dps?

I want to know whose in charge of balancing amarr ships. the guy should be fired.

BAteh
Penumbra Congregatio
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:13:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Law Enforcer
Edited by: Law Enforcer on 23/10/2007 18:11:01
the paladin needs to be rethought. it doesn't do anything particularly well.
1) sub par damage (abaddon does more dps)
2) cap amount bonus when it should be a regen bonus.
3) sub par tanking (abaddon gets better resists after bonus)

why is a t2 ship tanking less and doing less dps then a t1 counter part? I don't care if it's a tier 3 battleship.
this is tech 2 battleship.
and wtf is going on with the kronos doing nearly 2000 dps?

I want to know whose in charge of balancing amarr ships. the guy should be fired.



/signed

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:15:00 - [226]
 

Quote:
The Golem seems to be a match made in heaven for the new redesigned torps.


PG says no. Not if you want fit MWD, cap booster and XLSB with those Siege IIs, anyway. Oddly, the Kronos has no great PG problems... Rolling Eyes

Nick Marsh
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:26:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: Law Enforcer
Edited by: Law Enforcer on 23/10/2007 18:11:01
the paladin needs to be rethought. it doesn't do anything particularly well.
1) sub par damage (abaddon does more dps)
2) cap amount bonus when it should be a regen bonus.
3) sub par tanking (abaddon gets better resists after bonus)

why is a t2 ship tanking less and doing less dps then a t1 counter part? I don't care if it's a tier 3 battleship.
this is tech 2 battleship.
and wtf is going on with the kronos doing nearly 2000 dps?

I want to know whose in charge of balancing amarr ships. the guy should be fired.



the cap size also gives moar cap per second, but still I'll be retraining for a diffrent race....

/signed for firing the amarr hater @ ccp... oh wait we wont have ccp anymoar than NeutralMad

Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:28:00 - [228]
 

I do like how the Marauders will save money and cargo space on ammo, except that doesn't really apply to Amarr, does it? I'm glad Amarr is not my main focus.

annab
Amarr
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:30:00 - [229]
 

I'm sorry if this has been posted already I have only read a few pages. What skills are required to train theses new ships? If it has been posted can you just say which page.

Many thanks

annab

Alyxa Mahan
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:30:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Well while the paladin is not GREAT, it can fit 4 tachyons. Along with the 25% damage extra you have a ship that outdoes the abbadon on sniping (since it does not have the orrendous cap problems and a nice track bonus).

Are you looking at a different ship?
I see no 25% extra damage, and exactly the same cap use as the vanilla Apoc.

Karina Sasieko
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:33:00 - [231]
 

I take it those ships (like any other T2) have only two rig slots?
Everyone says Kronos pwn.... but with three rig slots Vindi is still looks a bit better.

Almarez
Setenta Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:33:00 - [232]
 

The poor get poorer and the rich get richer. The Gallente electronic attack ship and maurader look wicked, the Amarr one's look like garbage. Hey look, we give you a new ship with nerfed EW, nice. Are you really saying that the Kronos has the same layout as the Paladin and gets not only the 100% bonus to turret damage but gets a damage bonus per BS lvl and a bigger drone bay. This along with the fact that hybrids already do more damage than lasers, COME ON!

Blackhorizon
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:36:00 - [233]
 

Edited by: BlackHorizon on 23/10/2007 18:38:13
These Marauders are not solo-pwn mobiles because of their low sensor strength as already pointed out by someone else.

Moreover, these ships have high signature radii and the combination of low sensor strength and high make them rather easy to probe out making them a liability to any fleet.

But they do have significant advantages, such as the improved active tanking ability crucial in PvE (resistances bonuses would make these ships with HP tanks too imbalanced in PvP).
Moreover, they are a factor of eight better at staying longer in space, excellent for extremely long missions or complexes -- twice the damage/(cap or ammo) ratio per gun/launcher, twice as large cargo capacity, and half the number of guns/launchers so half the ammo consumption.

Shira d'Radonis
Amarr
The Amarr Mission
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:37:00 - [234]
 

Edited by: Shira d''Radonis on 23/10/2007 18:44:46
Originally by: Mack Dorgeans
I do like how the Marauders will save money and cargo space on ammo, except that doesn't really apply to Amarr, does it? I'm glad Amarr is not my main focus.



Well, they save on t2 crystals a bit, and presumably extra cargo space will allow for cap boosters... but overall it's pretty dismal for an Amarr.

edit: But hey, look at it this way... it makes good sense in the story! Slavery is horribly inefficient Razz

Anwylyd Al'Vos
The Knights Templar
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:46:00 - [235]
 

I fly minni only, so reactions...

EAS, looks like fun

HI, don't fly in a fleet, so, meh

BO, is exactly that... without CO Cloak, defeats the purpose imo... basically just a larger combat recon... not worth the investment

M, useless... especially given the skilling time needed to fit out t2 ac setup, which is meh, for missioning and ratting... versatile... right... it's unable to fit arties with its inadequate pg


reinforces why I don't fly big ships... not worth the time or the iskies... overall sad performance for the BS effort, though I just might zip around in the frig :)

Disco Flint
The Flaming Sideburn's
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:48:00 - [236]
 

I don't really know what to think of the Marauders... the Kronos and Vagur look pretty promising I guess, but the Paladin is a joke and the Golem does LESS damage than a CNR and barely more than a standard Raven. Also the 10% explosion velocity bonus is exactly what was changed on the NH because it's pretty much useless in nearly all situations.

Those two are certainly not the mission runners' wet dreams they were advertised as. I'll take my CNR or even a standard Raven over the Golem any day.

shinsushi
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:48:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Jslice
What a bunch of Crap. Amarr is officially the most boring, broken race that CCP has promised to fix yet has blantantly decided to forget about the promise & continue making them crap. Its one thing to go back & fix all ships, its another thing to just proceed & make the ships into the crap they have been.

All I gotta say before Wrangler forum bans me for speaking my mind is :

CCP, you are lying, unimaginative gallente flying bastards. Young children could have come up with better ideas than you have here. Do the right think & remove the Amarr race and let people move all Amarr based skill points to other areas. Oh, & fire whoever is in charge of designing Amarr ships, they are obviously clueless.


lol, nice man.

Its kinda funny how CCP kinda nerfed the crap outta the amarr ships before even releasing. Nerfing in the design stages eh?

Barry Cuda
Kings of Kill
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:51:00 - [238]
 

Still really want to know if heavy interdictors keep people from jumping through gates.

sharkyballs
Amarr
Dkiller Delta Force Corp.
CORPVS DELICTI
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:52:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Law Enforcer
Edited by: Law Enforcer on 23/10/2007 18:11:01
the paladin needs to be rethought. it doesn't do anything particularly well.
1) sub par damage (abaddon does more dps)
2) cap amount bonus when it should be a regen bonus.
3) sub par tanking (abaddon gets better resists after bonus)

why is a t2 ship tanking less and doing less dps then a t1 counter part? I don't care if it's a tier 3 battleship.
this is tech 2 battleship.
and wtf is going on with the kronos doing nearly 2000 dps?

I want to know whose in charge of balancing amarr ships. the guy should be fired.



/signed

Arshes Nei
LifeLine Solutions
Posted - 2007.10.23 18:58:00 - [240]
 

This looks very good for, pretty much as i expecteded(but not hoped for sadly). Let me go through them by type:

EW Frigs

Sentinel:
Not half as bad as people make it out. This is a frigate guys, lets not think about what 300cap/6sec over 18km will do to a BS, imagine what it will do to cruisers and other ships that dont have thousands of cap. Also dronedamage second only to the ishkur in its sizeclass this is a very versatile ship.

Kitsune:
ECM is not that good of a choice compared to damps, but look at the range this little ship will be able to operate at.

Keres:
Remember that damps will be redesigned at the same time this ship comes out, apart from that the warp disruption range is very valuable but has to compete with the changes to ceptors.

Hyena:
Everything in this ship and its boni comes together to make it excel at one thing: Being the best general purpose frigate tackler there is. Ideally you want a web and point on anything you tackle, and this ship will provide that without having to suicide into webrange itself.

Heavy Interdictors
Quote:
The agility is however effectively increased: the mass of the ship and the thrust of afterburners and microwarpdrives is significantly decreased (the thrust reduction cancels out the mass reductions in terms of speed boost)


This is key to understand this shipclass imho, it seems they will just get alot of agility when activating that mod. This is very much needed to reduce time spent accelerating and speed loss due to turning when trying to keep as many ships as possible in range of your field. The amarr one however looks a bit weak, especially between the capless weapons on the minnie one with falloff bonus and the superior firepower of the gallente one. Onyx i cant decide on yet, but generally 5 ACs + 3 launchers > 5 Launchers in the ranges i suspect these ships to operate in.

Black Ops
I like them. They are totally not what i had hoped for, but i can appreciate them for what they are. However im unsure about the bonus to cloaked speed, one can argue back and forth wether such a bonus is worth it on a fast frigate, but giving any mobility related bonus to these "40% more mass than normal BS" kind of ships seems like a waste. Crawling up to a enemy to tackle isnt really the use id had in mind for this ships, ideally you would have recons in your gang doing that. And to get into combat range after a tackle dropping cloak and using the mwd seems better.

The ships themselves i like, but the mobility related boni on gallente and minni seem wasted. Either these ships need them due to their huge mass, in which case all would need such a bonus and a plain massreduction would be better. Or they dont need it and would be better of with another bonus(this i think). Especially the minnie one seems weird, between mass and BS turrets limiting orbiting speed, not to mention that with a mass like that no nanosetup would work(acceleration and agility is more important than topspeed, both is heavily affected by mass).

Marauders
I like the basic idea of dropping half the guns and giving them 100% boni to free up highslots, also the Vargur and Golem both look very solid(fittings may need a look). But the kronos and paladin seem wrong, i can only explain that with the designphase not being over yet.

Kronos:
This ship is combining the best traits of megathron and hyperion. Turretfirepower of hyperion, dronespace from megathron, lowslots from megathron, slot for dualweb of hyperion(bonus), improved tank from hyperion and lastly tracking bonus from megathron.

Paladin:
This ship lacks defining traits, sure it has the capbonus from the apoc, and we connect it to it because of that, but really its too mishmash to shrug it off like that. Tank similar to abaddon, damage like apoc, cap like apoc, drones like apoc. Trackingboni are nice, but they are suger-on-top kind of nice, not roledefining nice. This ship just doesnt look very amarr to me.


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