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Mastin Dragonfly
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2007.10.25 15:26:00 - [421]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
also note that the 5% cap capacity bonus is actually pretty good for missions as it allows for easier use of dual repper tanks...just like it does on the normal apoc.


If you need a dual rep on a lvl 4 missionboat you are doing something horrible, horribly wrong. Especially considering that this ship is getting a repair amount bonus. The cap bonus is useless and an insult.

Zyanano
Caldari
Posted - 2007.10.25 15:34:00 - [422]
 

Quote:
The Black Ops specialize in infiltration and covert operation. Equipped with a jump drive, they can jump short distances past enemy blockades. Covert Ops, Stealth Bombers and Force Recons (not Combat Recons) have been upgraded to support Covert Cynosural Field Generators. These new modules are advanced Cynosural Field Generators that cannot be detected and only Black Ops can lock on to. What makes the Black Ops in particular dangerous is that they can use miniaturized jump portal generators, Covert Jump Portal Generators, to sneak allied forces behind enemy lines.


DO these bypass crono jammers if not they are worthless ? Also they should be made to work in empire space aswell. so long as cap ships cant interface them, alot of enemy blockades occur in empire space against waring corps.

The Economist
Logically Consistent
Posted - 2007.10.25 15:48:00 - [423]
 

Edited by: The Economist on 25/10/2007 15:52:11
Edited by: The Economist on 25/10/2007 15:49:07
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: The Economist
Edited by: The Economist on 25/10/2007 14:50:46

Originally by: Donathan Slade
Originally by: Iog Krugar

- the Warp Disruption Field Generator I has a radius of 16km and a warp scramble strength of 1



Ok, Why only warp strength one? Dictors are "Can not warp even with stabs" type things. Why only one point?

Originally by: Iog Krugar

droneship bandwidth/dronebay changes: (shipname | bandwidth | dronebay)

ishkur | 25 | 25+5/lvl <- dps nerf / space boost
vexor | 75 | 100 <- space boost
myrmidon | 75 | 125 <- nerf
eos | 75 | 150+15/lvl <- dps/space nerf!
ishtar | 125 | 125+50/lvl <- unchanged
sentinel | 20 | 60
arbitrator/curse/pilgrim | 50 | 150 <- dps nerf / big space boost
typhoon/panther | 125 | 175 <- space boost

i didnt expect them to nerf the eos that hard. especially when not changing the ishtar. sentinel having a bigger drone bay than the ishkur comes somewhat unexpected as well. to say the least Rolling Eyes


Ok... WTF!!! Why can a T2 CRUISER!!! have more drones than a T2 BATTLECRUISER!!! Seriously! I mean, the Eos relies on its drones just like the Ishtar, just doesn't get a drone damage bonus.

Myrm, This is a drone boat. why does it have the SAME space as a Vexor, but controls a little more? At that point, I'm starting to think I'll just fly my vexor instead of a myrm, and save money.

I do however like the Ishkur change. Limiting to medium drones. HOWEVER!!! That sets me off on a another point, what is the purpose of AFs? They are over priced for what they can do vs cov-ops ships and interceptors. Interceptors are cheaper and I can do more with them (and speed tank way better).

I ask you to re-consider some of the ships and core purpose, and how people use them. Granted, the myrm even though I like one was a little over powered, however, to not increase the drone bay at all and only nerf their dps... doesn't help much.


1) Think ccp envisions the heavy dictors as capital tacklers, so the scram strength is less of an issure formm that point of view.

2) A little comparison for you as an example to illustrate why the eos needed to be changed (much as I hate to admit it....I personally loved the eos):

Eos:
Full rack of highest dmg weapons with t2 high dmg ammo, 2 dmg mods, ogre II's and max skills = 950dps.

Damnation:
Full rack of highest dmg weapons, with t2 high dmg ammo, 2 dmg mods, as many drones as it can fit = 443dps.

Claymore:
Same = 610dps. [uh-oh I smell something about to get nerfed Laughing]

Vulture = 422dps.

Since all can fit gang links without any probs, and people use all kinds of gang links on all fleet commands irrespective of ship bonus, the other things left to choose between them are dmg and tank. All can tank very well. With the eos doing so much more dmg, why bother flying any others?

That's why it needed a nerf, it was overpowered within its class. [myrm was similar, was a rung above the other ships in its class]



The claymore extra damage can only be achieved usign the missile slots as extras that you will not have space to do it when using the gang links.

Its real dps is on low 500.


All examples shown are using all high slots for weapons to demonstrate max possible dmg.

Allowing for two gang links per ship we get:

Claymore = 535
Damnation = 358
Eos = 769
Vulture = 358

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.10.25 15:51:00 - [424]
 

Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
also note that the 5% cap capacity bonus is actually pretty good for missions as it allows for easier use of dual repper tanks...just like it does on the normal apoc.


If you need a dual rep on a lvl 4 missionboat you are doing something horrible, horribly wrong. Especially considering that this ship is getting a repair amount bonus. The cap bonus is useless and an insult.


Not everyone starts out with faction or officer reps. Some people need to start with T2 or named T1 reps, and those people need to dual rep for a while before they can make enough cash to get a faction rep.

Mastin Dragonfly
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2007.10.25 16:06:00 - [425]
 

Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
also note that the 5% cap capacity bonus is actually pretty good for missions as it allows for easier use of dual repper tanks...just like it does on the normal apoc.


If you need a dual rep on a lvl 4 missionboat you are doing something horrible, horribly wrong. Especially considering that this ship is getting a repair amount bonus. The cap bonus is useless and an insult.


Not everyone starts out with faction or officer reps. Some people need to start with T2 or named T1 reps, and those people need to dual rep for a while before they can make enough cash to get a faction rep.


Those ppl generaly won't have the skillpoints and the cash to fly Marauders, now will they?

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.25 16:31:00 - [426]
 

Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly

If you need a dual rep on a lvl 4 missionboat you are doing something horrible, horribly wrong. Especially considering that this ship is getting a repair amount bonus. The cap bonus is useless and an insult.


eh...have you ever tried doing lvl4s with an apoc/navy apoc?
the ship is made for tanking..so use this to your advantage. the whole point of chosing this ship over the abaddon is that you can run 8x lasers and a heavy dual repper tank at the same time without cap problems. if you dont want a heavy tnak then dont pick the apoc.

and a sustainable dual repper tank definately has its uses:
- can tank the whole stage in many misisons
- doesnt matter if you crash/lag out/desynch/fall off your chair
- no need to spend time getting into position to engage a specific enemy group...just sit around in the middle/move to the next gate and start killing stuff...if you aggro another group it doesnt matter at all.
- can aggro everything right away and then get your drones out without further issues
- if the npcs start at long range you can just aggro several/all groups and have them come closer while you work on the first targets...you spend less time moving towards the enemies.

so no the cap bonus is not useless. if your flying the ship like an abaddon your doing it wrong plain and simple. its a different approach to doing the mission.


what is truely useless is the crappy webifier bonus.


Mastin Dragonfly
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2007.10.25 16:38:00 - [427]
 

Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 25/10/2007 16:46:49
Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 25/10/2007 16:39:22
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
its a different approach to doing the mission.


That's like saying being last in a race is not losing, it's just a different approach to sports...
If you'd take a look in game at my standings you can see I'm not exactly new to lvl 4 missions, and I only used three ships: (Navy) Apoc, Nightmare and Abaddon. The right approach to missions is killing stuff fast and rake in the LPs/cash, not to tank from downtime to downtime. If the Paladin doesn't do equal or greater damage than the Abaddon it has no purpose.

The saving grace of this ship could have been enough grid to fit tachyons + tank + AB/MWD, instead it has less grid than the revised Nightmare, which is a shield tanker as well which needs less grid. I know what I'll be flying when Rev 3 goes live.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.10.25 17:13:00 - [428]
 

Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly
Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 25/10/2007 16:46:49
Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 25/10/2007 16:39:22
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
its a different approach to doing the mission.


That's like saying being last in a race is not losing, it's just a different approach to sports...
If you'd take a look in game at my standings you can see I'm not exactly new to lvl 4 missions, and I only used three ships: (Navy) Apoc, Nightmare and Abaddon. The right approach to missions is killing stuff fast and rake in the LPs/cash, not to tank from downtime to downtime. If the Paladin doesn't do equal or greater damage than the Abaddon it has no purpose.

The saving grace of this ship could have been enough grid to fit tachyons + tank + AB/MWD, instead it has less grid than the revised Nightmare, which is a shield tanker as well which needs less grid. I know what I'll be flying when Rev 3 goes live.


the true is Nightmare is now the best "ammar" BS.

Lincoln Armm
Posted - 2007.10.25 17:16:00 - [429]
 

I believe the key to understanding the Marauder class is not to look at missions.

Lets consider:
low ammo use, extra high slots, etra slots in general (due to t2 tank bonuses, less fitting reqs etc), a bonus to tractoring.

Its clear that these ships are meant to be used for exploration. CCCP continues to try to get the lead albatross that is exploration off the ground.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.10.25 18:00:00 - [430]
 

Originally by: Lincoln Armm
I believe the key to understanding the Marauder class is not to look at missions.

Lets consider:
low ammo use, extra high slots, etra slots in general (due to t2 tank bonuses, less fitting reqs etc), a bonus to tractoring.

Its clear that these ships are meant to be used for exploration. CCCP continues to try to get the lead albatross that is exploration off the ground.


Yes they are surely not MISSIOn runners.

That do not change the fact that paladin sux so much that I bet we could get a goon and a BOB guy bth to agree on this same subject!!!

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2007.10.25 18:17:00 - [431]
 

I'm just commenting on the blog itself and not anything in the thread(I did skim it though)
My thoughts so far on the new T2 ships:
Electronic attack ships, why are these frigates? Personally, I would like to see more T2 destroyers introduced into the game. There are already quite a few T2 frigates flying around in Eve, do we really need 1 more T2 frigate class? I believe the EAS could work well as destroyers, they already have comparable mass values and velocity as is and could use some extra slots/capacitor. Of course being a destroyer hull would prolly make em slightly easier to destroy due to having a bigger signature radius.
As for specific EAS, why does the Keres, being gallente, only have a single light drone under it's control and the Sentinel have control over 4 light drones(not to mention 8 spares).
I'm also slightly concerned with the Hyena, being able to web targets past the "magic" barrier of 10km(without investing large sums in modules) is a powerfull ability with the current webifier mechanics.

Does the Devoter have enough with the 4 turrets, it seems a bit "weak" compared to the other 3 Heavy dictors.

Why does the Sin have an agility bonus? Has there been any consideration about having a second drone bonus such as drone MWD boost bonus?
Then the Panther: Why does it deviate soo much from the T1 hull it is based on? Why not 3 turrets and 3 launchers with the Typhoons Rate of fire bonuses? And instead of the velocity bonus perhaps some shield tanking bonus, since with the velocity bonus there exists the possibility of a possibly effective nano'ed T2 BS despite the high mass.

Then I come to Marauders, I don't have much to say about these except for the Paladin. I hope it has been discussed thoroughly that essentially the Paladin doesn't gain anything over the Apocalypse from getting the number of turrets halved and damage doubled. Because the cap use reduction has been removed, it uses the same amount of cap as the Apocalypse. Consider removing the web bonus and turning that into the cap use bonus (and perhaps also change the tracking bonus to damage?)

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.25 18:36:00 - [432]
 

Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly

That's like saying being last in a race is not losing, it's just a different approach to sports...


gj about ignoring the actual arguments in my post there. just because you dont get the same amount of damage doesnt mean the ship is without a purpose.


Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly
(Navy) Apoc, Nightmare and Abaddon.

my current navy apoc has a dual repper tank, 2x heat sinks and a full rack of mega pulses to get some damage out of the apoc..could easily go for 3x hs if i wanted to. so i dont really see why a dual repper tank means the ship has to suck at dealing damage. the apoc is not an abaddon..dont try to force that on it. use its advantages instead.


Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly

If the Paladin doesn't do equal or greater damage than the Abaddon it has no purpose.


wouldnt go as far as claiming that. but it certainly needs something more. right now its just pretty unimpressive.

this could be solved by a 5% damage bonus instead of the webbing one for example...to give it a better tank than the apoc has with the damage of the abaddon.

however there are other ways as well..could go for an optimal bonus instead. should be pretty good with pulses then even without more direct damage.

or give it more damage with an increased dronebay.

all this doesnt mean that the 5% cap capcity bonus is useless though wich was the real point in my posts above. but feel free to ignore this.


Mastin Dragonfly
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2007.10.25 19:11:00 - [433]
 

Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 25/10/2007 19:11:37
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly

That's like saying being last in a race is not losing, it's just a different approach to sports...


gj about ignoring the actual arguments in my post there. just because you dont get the same amount of damage doesnt mean the ship is without a purpose.


Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly
(Navy) Apoc, Nightmare and Abaddon.

my current navy apoc has a dual repper tank, 2x heat sinks and a full rack of mega pulses to get some damage out of the apoc..could easily go for 3x hs if i wanted to. so i dont really see why a dual repper tank means the ship has to suck at dealing damage. the apoc is not an abaddon..dont try to force that on it. use its advantages instead.


Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly

If the Paladin doesn't do equal or greater damage than the Abaddon it has no purpose.


wouldnt go as far as claiming that. but it certainly needs something more. right now its just pretty unimpressive.

this could be solved by a 5% damage bonus instead of the webbing one for example...to give it a better tank than the apoc has with the damage of the abaddon.

however there are other ways as well..could go for an optimal bonus instead. should be pretty good with pulses then even without more direct damage.

or give it more damage with an increased dronebay.

all this doesnt mean that the 5% cap capcity bonus is useless though wich was the real point in my posts above. but feel free to ignore this.




If I can run all lvl 4 missions in an Abaddon with 2 heatsinks and without a cap booster, the most cap hungry ship in the game, then yes I will state that a little bit of extra cap is pointless for missions.

P.S. An Abaddon with 2 heatsinks does more damage than a Navy Apoc with 4 heatsinks.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.10.25 19:51:00 - [434]
 

Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly

If I can run all lvl 4 missions in an Abaddon with 2 heatsinks and without a cap booster, the most cap hungry ship in the game, then yes I will state that a little bit of extra cap is pointless for missions.



as i said above...different ships ..different ways to use them...you can run them all in an abaddon but you will not run them in he same way as a navy apoc can. doesnt mean its wrong to use the other ship.


Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly

P.S. An Abaddon with 2 heatsinks does more damage than a Navy Apoc with 4 heatsinks.


what a suprise!


Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.10.25 20:34:00 - [435]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon


At end you made 4 ships that are bad for PVP and BAd for PVE. Incredble. Astoneshing.



The fedathron, wait, i mean Kronos is not bad for PvP

Marcus Tedric
Gallente
Tedric Enterprises
Crimson Steel Empire
Posted - 2007.10.25 21:01:00 - [436]
 

It's been asked a couple of times - but no response...

20 T2 ships were originally mentioned.

No T2 Freighters this time?

Pliauga
Gallente
Posted - 2007.10.26 05:01:00 - [437]
 

A jump freighter had been anonced yesterday. Should couse some tsunamis in the economy, lol.

Darth Felin
Posted - 2007.10.26 09:42:00 - [438]
 

Originally by: Pliauga
A jump freighter had been anonced yesterday. Should couse some tsunamis in the economy, lol.


I did not find a devblog about it. Can you share URL?

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.10.26 10:34:00 - [439]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Kagura Nikon


At end you made 4 ships that are bad for PVP and BAd for PVE. Incredble. Astoneshing.



The fedathron, wait, i mean Kronos is not bad for PvP


ok ok you are right on this one.

"You made 2 ships that are bad for both pvp and pve, 1 ship that is mehh and 1 ship that is a wtfpownmobileofdoom"

Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2007.10.26 11:48:00 - [440]
 

Originally by: Tootz
Any reason why we haven't had any sort of DEV response on the concerns raised in this thread, when in contrast they can't seem to stay out of a thread about backing down on the Carrier changes?


I can only guess, but after reading the thread i'd say complaints don't spread equal among races(approximated):

60-70% Amarr
20-25% Caldari
10-14.9% Minmatar
<0.1% Gallente

Now, i think that should make it obvious. Razz

Pliauga
Gallente
Posted - 2007.10.26 12:02:00 - [441]
 

Originally by: Darth Felin
Originally by: Pliauga
A jump freighter had been anonced yesterday. Should couse some tsunamis in the economy, lol.


I did not find a devblog about it. Can you share URL?


Well they were not anounced in a dev blog, but I recieved a newsletter that says they are gonna be in rev3 yesterday, the newsletter pritty much states the same as this. Plus there are guys discusing jump freighter prices in forums. And, on sisi I think, there's this.

So I make a silly asumption that they are pritty much announced, although indirectly.

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.10.26 13:01:00 - [442]
 

Originally by: Myra2007
Originally by: Tootz
Any reason why we haven't had any sort of DEV response on the concerns raised in this thread, when in contrast they can't seem to stay out of a thread about backing down on the Carrier changes?


I can only guess, but after reading the thread i'd say complaints don't spread equal among races(approximated):

60-70% Amarr
20-25% Caldari
10-14.9% Minmatar
<0.1% Gallente

Now, i think that should make it obvious. Razz



It's obvious that the Amarr are pro whiners and the Caldari overpopulated. Razz

Seriously though the Paladin does seem to be pretty poor compared to the others, the Golem on the other hand will pwn in both PvP and PvE... or is the Kronos getting some kind of 30km ammo for it's blasters? Very Happy

Roxelana
Amarr
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2007.10.26 16:19:00 - [443]
 

I have commented on one aspect of the dev blog and the new tech 2 ships in a seperate post.

Rayne Starfire
Amarr
Intergalactic Mining And Trade Corp.
Posted - 2007.10.27 06:00:00 - [444]
 

Dear CCP,

You have yet again failed the Amarr empire. We hereby revoke your rights to design our ships. You have proposed a Tech2 battleship that will be out DPS'd by two, yes count them TWO, of our Tech1 battleships and at a significantly reduced cost. Not only will two of our Tech1 battleships out DPS your proposed Tech2 variant, one of the two has better armor resistances rendering one of the advantages you've outlined completely useless. When you decide to remove your head from your arse and deliver unto us a workable setup with a range greater than 10km we will consider your rehire. Until then consider yourself on probationary leave without pay.

Sincerely,
Amarran pilots everywhere

Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2007.10.27 19:13:00 - [445]
 

Heres a thought on the Paladin. Forget the missions and pvp fit the thing. 4 lasers and the rest of the high for heavy nuets. Its got a huge cap, so that won't be a problem with a few ccc's or cprs.

Oscar Clay
Posted - 2007.10.27 19:43:00 - [446]
 

Dear CCP:

Please, please, for the love of god PLEASE don't name the Caldari EA ship "Kitsune". That is something a guy who writes erotic Sonic the Hedgehog fan fiction and owns the Inuyasha DVD box set would name a ship.

Your pal, Oscar.

Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2007.10.27 20:15:00 - [447]
 

Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn
Heres a thought on the Paladin. Forget the missions and pvp fit the thing. 4 lasers and the rest of the high for heavy nuets. Its got a huge cap, so that won't be a problem with a few ccc's or cprs.


According to sisi its base cap is the same as that of the other marauders and indeed smaller than apocs base cap. It also lacks the turret cap use and as such is overall *less* cap efficient than an apoc.

Admittedly the rep bonus safes cap but still you will need 2 heavy injectors to fuel it capwise. Also every other marauder could do the job better as they all have the spare his and if you include guns all of them have better cap efficiency than paladin. So, basically no its not a particularly strong point of that ship.

Mordus Operandi
Posted - 2007.10.27 22:16:00 - [448]
 

since everyone else that is writting in this thread is complaining, i might as well add something.

you guys fail.

every post is a someone crying about the new BS not being a pocket dread designed specificly for missions or their own little ****ing world - *pout*, *cry*, "why arent the amarr ships the big ass **** kickers they were when eve first came out??" ANS: they have more dualbility of ANY other race out there, get over it; "why doesnt the golem own everything out there" *insert more sobs* ANS: because the state raven exists, wth more do you need.

Electronic Attack Ships - are wierd. need to balanced better with assault firgates and ceptors - figure out the roles for each.

Heavy Dictor - does this make the interdictor (destroyer) obsolete? is it just a warp/jump jam bubble or does it also kill nme ab's/mwd's???

Marruder - most of the posts focus on this, if you look at it's tank, these are insane, they use less ammo, same damage output. you want missions, use faction; for 0.0 ratting and fleet pvp, these are look fun. (omg ECCM is ACTUALLY NEEDED NOW!? *whine!*, *cry!, *pout!* :P)

Black Ops - so many people seem to think these are supposed to be super-awesome BS's as well... - uh, guys, it cloaks, warps cloaked, ******edly large drone bays, jump drives, JUMP PORTAL GENERATORS?! these are for pvp. they are support and supprise gankers, not front line or mission ships, get over it.

BE CONSTRUCTIVE OR SHUT THE HELL UP. WHINING ABOUT AMARR CAP BONUS ON THE APOC-HULLS IS STUPID - LAST I REMEMBER, YOU STILL NEED CAP FOR YOUR TANK!

Oscar Clay
Posted - 2007.10.27 22:31:00 - [449]
 

Originally by: Mordus Operandi

Black Ops - so many people seem to think these are supposed to be super-awesome BS's as well... - uh, guys, it cloaks, warps cloaked,


*RECORD SCRATCH NOISE*

They can't warp cloaked, chief. They have "25% bonus to cloaked velocity per Black Ops level", not "-96% to -100% cloaking device cpu use per level". That means no covops cloak.

Rayne Starfire
Amarr
Intergalactic Mining And Trade Corp.
Posted - 2007.10.28 02:22:00 - [450]
 

Originally by: Mordus Operandi


every post is a someone crying about the new BS not being a pocket dread designed specificly for missions or their own little ****ing world


No, I expect them to provide a DPS equivalent to current BS's available to Amarr. Let's look at the Gallante Mara. It has a dmg bonus, 8 effective turrets, and 125m3 of drone control. What does the Paladin have? 8 effective turrets and 75m3 of drones. Please... get a grip before you start cutting yourself.


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