| Author |
Topic |
Cherika
Caldari
Blood Works Inc.
Circle-Of-Two |
Posted - 2007.10.26 14:09:00 - [ 151]
 Originally by: CCP Atropos
The Eos has been brought in line with the other Fleet Command ships. It has, for a long time, been immensely overpowered compared to the Claymore, Damnation and Vulture. It was the only Fleet Command ship that could out damage it's equivalent Field Command. If you don't think that's wrong, then can I have some of what you're smoking?
Can I have some of what your designers were smoking back in the day? How about hiring designers who don't just decide ship stats randomly first and then figure things out later? |
Wigglytuff
Perkone
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 14:13:00 - [ 152]
A Cruiser, hac or not, should not have full BS (heavy drone) damage.
Eos maybe, Ishtar no, myrmidon (as much as it pains me to say it) no, Domi yes (it's a BS afterall).
Ishkur will likely get it too, they can fit what, 4 mediums and a light with max skills? |
Harmon Illuminati
Section XIII
Cursed Alliance |
Posted - 2007.10.26 14:24:00 - [ 153]
its not BS damage, myrm looses one drone, it cant fire out a new heavy.... and the Domi has a Large "LARGE" Hybridge turret bonus, so not the same DPS atall |
Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.10.26 14:35:00 - [ 154]
I know this might be a little tough, but can we keep this constructive?
Some of these issues are important for these ships and should not be lost under a mountain of "OMG TEH SKIES R FALLEN IN".
Cruisers doing BS damage was not intended, nor is it a good thing. but the risk of over nerf seems to be high, especially with the eos. |
Sgt Napalm
Veto.
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2007.10.26 15:20:00 - [ 155]
Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
I know this might be a little tough, but can we keep this constructive?
The problem is the anger I feel is immense. I trained for two things in this game, a mean Tech II Mega which was hit hard by 2 nerf bats so I moved onto a CS. Now, something that took many months to train for is going to be hit by 2 nerf bats, successfully killing the Eos.  Yes, I need a hug.  |
Malena Panic
Gallente
Veto.
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2007.10.26 15:23:00 - [ 156]
Originally by: Wigglytuff
A Cruiser, hac or not, should not have full BS (heavy drone) damage.
Why not exactly? My Deimos with average gunnery skills does 150dps more than my Ishtar with near max drone skills and Ogre IIs. |
Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.10.26 15:35:00 - [ 157]
Originally by: Sgt Napalm
Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
I know this might be a little tough, but can we keep this constructive?
The problem is the anger I feel is immense. I trained for two things in this game, a mean Tech II Mega which was hit hard by 2 nerf bats so I moved onto a CS. Now, something that took many months to train for is going to be hit by 2 nerf bats, successfully killing the Eos. Yes, I need a hug.
Weeell, to be brutal, I’d have to ask why you trained for them? If the answer was “because they’re really good” then you have the problem right there. Basically, it says they were too good and therefore were instantly candidates for the nerf bat as soon as someone noticed. At the end of the day, the Eos is a fleet command ship. Its primary focus is to run at least 3 command links, damage is, at best, a tertiary matter (behind tanking/staying alive). I suspect that when they came up with the command ships they realised that the Gallente were getting the short end of the stick with Info Warfare and (over) compensated with the ship stats. Personally I can see why people would have jumped on it, but at the same time have little sympathy for those who did train for it for any reason other than running links. I really don’t think this ship should be a drone boat personally, and am told it was only made one due to forum whingers demanding a drone boat at this level. If info warfare is to remain the way it is, then logically the Eos should be an EW boat to complement its role as an EW booster. If people really want a powerful drone based cruiser, the ishtar is that way --> |
SN3263827
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm |
Posted - 2007.10.26 15:43:00 - [ 158]
Edited by: SN3263827 on 26/10/2007 15:45:33 Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
Cruisers doing BS damage was not intended,
FIVE HEAVY DRONES DOES NOT BS DAMAGE MAKEThat's like saying a caracal with large shield extenders has a BS tank. It simply isn't true. A T2 Ogre with perfect skills in a ship with drone damage bonus does approx 100dps without taking tracking into account. 500dps is not battleship damage by any stretch of an EFT-jockeys fevered imagination. |
Sgt Napalm
Veto.
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2007.10.26 15:59:00 - [ 159]
Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
Weeell, to be brutal, I’d have to ask why you trained for them? If the answer was “because they’re really good” then you have the problem right there. Basically, it says they were too good and therefore were instantly candidates for the nerf bat as soon as someone noticed.
This is going to get super deep on you so just bare with me please. It comes down to your philosophy in this game we call EvE. From what I can gather from nearly my two years in game CCP is attempting to do away with anything that can be considered a 'solo man's' ship. The nerf of the Eos is just one step further. Can I see why they are doing it? Sure, they are attempting to push people into gangs to fully enjoy the 'EvE Experience'. The unfortunate part is a small gang leads to big gangs, big gangs to large gangs, from large gangs to mega blobs, from mega blobs to whines about lag on the Eve O forums. So the cycle continues. Do I understand why they are doing it? Sure. Do I agree with it? No. I'll admit it, I ENJOY SOLO PLAY. For solo play you need big toys which always require big time training and a ISK float to support the fix. There is no other thrill then throwing an Eos into a gate camp of a couple hac's to see if you come out alive. What CCP is doing is making the time invested into the 'big toys' not worth it anymore. Why train a command ship now when you can spit our a dreadnought pilot in the same time? POS warfare is fun, right? Ah well. Thanks for reading if you got this far. |
Mei Han
Mythos Corp
RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2007.10.26 16:12:00 - [ 160]
Edited by: Mei Han on 26/10/2007 16:14:35
Oh and please since you nerf drones, boost Minmatar Hacs and Commands some more, i mean they really need it! I am bored to be beside hundreds of Astarte, Eos, Deimos and Ishtar.
I mean thank god that with this change you brought Gallente t2 ships back in line.
You CCP guys must really get out of Tanis space and see what is flying out there. |
Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.10.26 16:19:00 - [ 161]
Originally by: SN3263827
Edited by: SN3263827 on 26/10/2007 15:45:33
Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
Cruisers doing BS damage was not intended,
FIVE HEAVY DRONES DOES NOT BS DAMAGE MAKE
That's like saying a caracal with large shield extenders has a BS tank. It simply isn't true.
A T2 Ogre with perfect skills in a ship with drone damage bonus does approx 100dps without taking tracking into account.
500dps is not battleship damage by any stretch of an EFT-jockeys fevered imagination.
but it is a Drone BS's drone damage. Just because a neut isn't a curse' only weapon, doesn't mean you would be happy it could fit a large neut AND have its neut bonus'. your shield analogy doesn't work, you'd need to compare say, a cruiser that can fit BS sized missiles but only cruiser sized guns. |
Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2007.10.26 16:24:00 - [ 162]
Originally by: Sgt Napalm
This is going to get super deep on you so just bare with me please. It comes down to your philosophy in this game we call EvE. From what I can gather from nearly my two years in game CCP is attempting to do away with anything that can be considered a 'solo man's' ship. The nerf of the Eos is just one step further. Can I see why they are doing it? Sure, they are attempting to push people into gangs to fully enjoy the 'EvE Experience'. The unfortunate part is a small gang leads to big gangs, big gangs to large gangs, from large gangs to mega blobs, from mega blobs to whines about lag on the Eve O forums. So the cycle continues. Do I understand why they are doing it? Sure. Do I agree with it? No.
I'll admit it, I ENJOY SOLO PLAY. For solo play you need big toys which always require big time training and a ISK float to support the fix. There is no other thrill then throwing an Eos into a gate camp of a couple hac's to see if you come out alive. What CCP is doing is making the time invested into the 'big toys' not worth it anymore. Why train a command ship now when you can spit our a dreadnought pilot in the same time? POS warfare is fun, right?
Ah well. Thanks for reading if you got this far.
I do get what you mean, but the ship that should have been for that role (well, within this class) was the field command ship. The fact that the fleet version was even considered for it shows the problem quite clearly. The Eos is meant to be all about gang mods. The fact that its poor at that (the cap is hardly sustainable just running 3 mods), but great as a solo boat proves that something was wrong. |
SN3263827
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm |
Posted - 2007.10.26 16:34:00 - [ 163]
Edited by: SN3263827 on 26/10/2007 16:35:30 Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
but it is a Drone BS's drone damage.
Then say that. Saying "Cruisers were never meant to do BS damage", if you actually mean "cruisers shouldn't do the same damage with drones as bs", either intellectually dishonest, or stupid. The astarte does (approximately) the same turret damage as a megathron, a turret BS. Does that mean the astarte is broken? |
Gaius Sejanus
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 20:35:00 - [ 164]
Especially ridiculous for the Eos, since it doesn't even begin to compete with the Dominix when using 5 heavy drones. NO DAMAGE BONUS.
Eos damage is too high? Leave the drones alone, and drop 3 turret slots off. Ta-da. Now it's got room for the warfare links that nobody uses anyway, and its gun damage is significantly reduced. This would also give it the unique...uh...advantage... of being the only command ship out of all 8 that cannot fill its high slots with weapons. The only one. Of course, it's going to get that distinction anyway, but as long as we're doing it, let's not screw around, yes?
Since most drone boats take substantial penalties in slots, armor, shields, capacitor in exchange for their drones, do these nerfs mean that those ships are going to be getting revisited and have those attributes increased? The Damnation has 500 more base armor, so can we expect the Eos to receive another few hundred points as well? |
Sgt Napalm
Veto.
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2007.10.26 20:42:00 - [ 165]
All valid questions that should be anwsered |
Wagstaff
The Program
Controlled Chaos |
Posted - 2007.10.26 20:47:00 - [ 166]
Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
I know this might be a little tough, but can we keep this constructive?
Some of these issues are important for these ships and should not be lost under a mountain of "OMG TEH SKIES R FALLEN IN".
Cruisers doing BS damage was not intended, nor is it a good thing. but the risk of over nerf seems to be high, especially with the eos.
While I appreciate that cruisers shouldn't be doing battleship damage overall, we're only talking about drones here, not the whole package. And by the same reasoning, a battlecruiser, HAC or Recon should certainly be an improvement over a cruiser, so why give (for example) the Myrmidon the same bandwidth as a regular cruiser? |
Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 21:11:00 - [ 167]
Originally by: Fenderson
according to EFT, an astarte with full neutrons, 3 mag stabs and 5 hammerhead IIs with max skills gives you 920 DPS.
Eos with full neutrons, 3 mag stabs, and 5 ogre IIs gives 927 DPS.
So with three mids taken up with Omnidirectional tracking links in order to get the Ogres up to full damage potential, one taken up by an MWD to get close enough for the blasters to bear, three lows loaded with Magstabs... Exactly what sort of use are you? Giving the Eos such a low bandwidth however has more implications than simply reducing its DPS, it also significantly impacts its versatility. The Railgun and Sentry fit will be a thing of the past, removing the option of engaging at moderate (not long, cruiser rails aren't long range unless they're on a Vulture/Ferox/Moa/Eagle) range and forcing the Eos to fit for close - where its active tank is pressured by hostile Nos and Neuts in addition to everything else. |
Zed Nash
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2007.10.26 21:26:00 - [ 168]
Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
The Eos is meant to be all about gang mods. The fact that its poor at that (the cap is hardly sustainable just running 3 mods), but great as a solo boat proves that something was wrong.
So a viable solution is to make it suck at both? You miss the point. No one is saying that a nerf wasn't needed, what they're saying is that 2 nerfs were not, that CCP has effectively made the Eos not only a poor gang support ship by design, but just a poor ship by choice, period. I challenge you to provide one example of how the "new and improved" Eos betters or even compares to any other ship in it's class. It's tank is poor, it's gang bonuses are poor (and completely off Gallente ship philosophy, better fit for Caldari, the ewar race), and now it's DPS is poor. It brings nothing to the table, at all. |
Dahak2150
Arm of Orion |
Posted - 2007.10.26 21:41:00 - [ 169]
Perhaps info warfare links should be boosted slightly, 26-39% with mindlink (which, despite someone's persecution complex, is essentially required on any fleetcom for actual effectiveness), but with the arrival of the low-sensor-strength Marauders I can see the strength boosting link gaining demand. |
Sgt Napalm
Veto.
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2007.10.28 01:52:00 - [ 170]
bump |
Devious Syn
Celestial Mayhem
C0NVICTED |
Posted - 2007.10.28 03:15:00 - [ 171]
Edited by: Devious Syn on 28/10/2007 03:17:12All these changes are complete shat... it just kills peoples fun, instead of nerfing everything last damn thing how about boosting other ships to come inline with those you "claim" are so overpowered.... At least you wouldn't **** off 3/4 of your paying customers all the time. If drones are such a problem why doesnt everyone fit a Smart Bomb? Oh, cuzz drones arent really that much of a problem..  |
Ahh yee |
Posted - 2007.10.28 04:37:00 - [ 172]
Originally by: CCP Atropos
The Eos has been brought in line with the other Fleet Command ships. It has, for a long time, been immensely overpowered compared to the Claymore, Damnation and Vulture. It was the only Fleet Command ship that could out damage it's equivalent Field Command. If you don't think that's wrong, then can I have some of what you're smoking?
Too bad it's the worst at it's "role" as a fleet command ship. Blasters? Information Warfare Links? Worst tank of all 4? Sounds like a winner |
Ivor Gunn
No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition
|
Posted - 2007.10.28 04:42:00 - [ 173]
Originally by: Malena Panic
Originally by: Wigglytuff
A Cruiser, hac or not, should not have full BS (heavy drone) damage.
Why not exactly? My Deimos with average gunnery skills does 150dps more than my Ishtar with near max drone skills and Ogre IIs.
Your deimos has an effective optimal range of approximately 2km. It also requires webs and probably significant EW support to stop itself from being ****d before it's anywhere even near its maximum effective range. The ishtar, on the other hand, only has to come within 60km of the target, once, to be dealing a nice 450dps, and can then swan around at several km/s, dumping its EW of choice on whatever target presents itself. Admittedly, there are some problems with drone usage (such as your drones dying), but they pale in comparison to the problems with blaster usage on a flying coffin. |
Lt Angus
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.10.28 09:46:00 - [ 174]
Since when were heavy drones BS weapons, i remember using them on my thorax |
Evolyze
Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2007.10.28 11:28:00 - [ 175]
I can fully understand the myrm being nerfed, it was my fav ship for along time, it had an amazing tank, good dps and was cost effective. People have shown that the myrm can still be used to kill with mediums. Fairplay.
The Eos though i think dosnt require a nerf, it has been shown to be uber amazing, i first started training for it after watching The "Eos Movement" and seeing its incredable power in solo fights.
After a few months of training i was in my eos. After going through fittings i found with Cs 4 which i guess is the standard cs level for the average eve player i found you can only fit 5 heavy drones realisticly in the bay. ofc you can have spares but i like to have full sets of drones :) With the added nerf of the shield recharge when scooping drones i can't see why people don't try and kill the drones, its really difficult and annoying trying to manage scooping drones that are being shot without just pulling the whole lot in which reduces the dps for some time.
Loosing the two turrets is fine, loosing the them imo isnt a problem as the 3 highslots have better uses then turrets like nos, nuets and warefarelinks.
Also the tank from what i have seen and from other peoples posts arnt as good as the other fleet cs's, which warrents its "extra dps" to compensate for its tank as it really would be a solo pwn mobile if it could do them both.
Imo if your going to carry on with these drone nerfs the tank needs to be increased. If you decide not to carry on with the drone nerfs for the eos i think that removing the turrets would be fine as it is allready getting nerfed with drone shield recharge.
Evol (sorry for any spelling grammer stuff)
|
Sgt Napalm
Veto.
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2007.10.29 18:24:00 - [ 176]
Up we go |
Denga Vulture
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2007.11.01 11:42:00 - [ 177]
Edited by: Denga Vulture on 01/11/2007 11:45:16 Originally by: CCP Atropos
The Eos has been brought in line with the other Fleet Command ships. It has, for a long time, been immensely overpowered compared to the Claymore, Damnation and Vulture. It was the only Fleet Command ship that could out damage it's equivalent Field Command. If you don't think that's wrong, then can I have some of what you're smoking?
Well said man .. and where is my tech 2 drone battlecruiser now ? You send us drone users back to years old ships (ishtar and dominix) ... wow what an option.  Edit: well then remove the hybrid bounus form the eos and give it drone damage bonus or whatever and the 125m/bit bandwith to become useful. |
Viecat Eare |
Posted - 2007.11.03 22:23:00 - [ 178]
I seem at this tread, im not the only one, i spent now around 1 year to train use the Eos decently.
I love battlecruisers, and now you nerfed the only Battlecruiser who can use Heavy drones, and loot of drones.
Drones are fun, get it? Sentry drones works in missions!
As not , i must train for a domonix, jeez, can i have my skills back?
As the other field comand ships lack dps, yes, its bad, cause, few peeps will train up for them, and use them in missions, or rat or pvp
As many has stated, few peeps using fleet comand ships, with one Exeption, Eos.
Increase dps of the other fleet comand, so you can use 1 link, 2 links or chose guns = more fun
Dont nerf Eos, if you considered overpowered, 2 guns are ok?
Show me and other players SOME RESPECT = 3 MONTH TRAINING and over nerf
With Regards
Ivan Eare |
Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2007.11.03 23:30:00 - [ 179]
Still no real response on how since CCP apparently wishes to force Eos users to use gang links, what they are going to do to address the issue that:
1. Gang links on pretty much any Fleet command ship are about the same as on a T1 BC
and
2. How both these nerfs applied to the ship at the same time don't make it underpowered in comparison to, well, everything else. |
MellaRinn
Gallente
Veto.
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2007.11.03 23:34:00 - [ 180]
Originally by: Kai Lae
Still no real response on how since CCP apparently wishes to force Eos users to use gang links, what they are going to do to address the issue that:
1. Gang links on pretty much any Fleet command ship are about the same as on a T1 BC
and
2. How both these nerfs applied to the ship at the same time don't make it underpowered in comparison to, well, everything else.
I am not in favour of any nerfs here, but apparently the new eos slot layout makes it tank like the damnation (exactly 1 dps less in fact, and 3 dps with a damnation boosting the armor) - assuming that they are moving the midslot down. This combined with the 3 gang links (again, not saying that the information warfare ones are awesome, but nvm that) does make a huge difference compared to a t1 BC, which you are trying to imply has the same warfare link power (how you worked that out - I dunno...) |
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