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Jenea
Gallente
The Copernicus Institute
Posted - 2007.10.25 01:17:00 - [121]
 

These changes, while perhaps some ships were in need of tweaking, are unacceptable.

There is a 1 frigate (3 whole drones, no dps bonus), 1 assault frigate (no dps bonus), 1 covert ops (sorta, 1 drone), 1 EWar frigate, 2 cruisers (including a faction one), 2 recons (wimped), 1 HAC, 2 command ships (wimped, no dps bonus), 1 battlecruiser (wimped), and 1 battleship that are considered dedicated drone boats.

Drone user choice of ships are limited, fewer than any other weapon system platform. If some of these ships are overpowered, tone down their turret and/or other ability, and leave something for the primary drone user to fly and enjoy.

It's not just about the Eos and Myrmidon changes. The Ishkur was fine, and did not need adjusted. The ship attribute that increases drone bay size is useless now, given how some ships will suddenly get larger drone bays for free -- the old drone bay increase bonus affected your size and therefore what you could deploy. Furthermore, losing the ability to repair shields is downright annoying, and creates yet more micro-management. Basically I'll be packing remote shield reppers now (they promised variety!), or repairing minor damage after each mission, effectively negating one aspect of drones -- not having to buy/reload ammo.

I didn't post when we were limited to 5 drones. I bought into it being too overpowered. What CCP did was rush the process and create a very stagnant drone system without the frills of other weapon systems. We have no T2/faction/officer modules, no implants, no faction/officer drones, no dps rigs, and still no Navy Dominix (we got FIVE variants of the Megathron though.) Yet, everyone wants to compare the relatively simplistic drone paradigm to the more complex systems of other weapons, of course, conviently forgetting about all those extras that can be gained for turrets and missiles.

I guess it's just that time of year when CCP decides to nerf drones, then wraps it in the cloth of "variety" and "boosting." I am not pleased and I don't even fly a Myrmidon or Eos -- I can read the handwriting on the wall. Next year, I fully expect CCP to come around and say the Ishtar and Dominix are overpowered.

Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.10.25 01:52:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Jenea
...


QFT.

Also,

Originally by: Jenea
Next year, I fully expect CCP to come around and say the Ishtar and Dominix are overpowered.


Please don't give either CCP or the forum swarm ideas ...

revokone
Posted - 2007.10.25 03:42:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: revokone on 25/10/2007 03:52:20
Edited by: revokone on 25/10/2007 03:50:08
Edited by: revokone on 25/10/2007 03:47:29
I don't understand the logic behind how "balancing" is done by CCP. If one race's ship is supposedly overpowered, why not boost the other three races ships in that class to equal things out making the people who fly those 3 races happy. Instead they nerf the one race and make the people who are specced in that race's ships unhappy. Is it simply for ease of coding? I hope not as the ships are the way they are because that's the way CCP made them. We shouldn't be punished because of their lack of foresight.

People train a for a very long time to fly certain ships, and in the process pay a lot of money to CCP. It would seem to me that buffing the other "subpar" races ships and leaving the "pwnmobile" alone would be a better way to go. To be honest this is very disheartening. Why subtract fun when you can just add more of it? Maybe I'm way off base here, I don't know. I haven't played this game nearly as long as most of you. I understand wanting to balance things out, but to me it seems that CCP lives in a theoretical nether region where "fair" pvp occurs. In my experience, pvp in this game is (for the most part) either gank or be ganked.

I'd be interested in hearing about how previously nerfed ships are faring in the "real world" of Eve, not the imaginary 3 magstab, EFT world. The Curse comes to mind first. How is that ship faring after CCP "fixed" it?

I love this game, but tbh I'm a bit concerned between the incessant nerfing and t2 battleships with bonuses to tractor beams.

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2007.10.25 11:00:00 - [124]
 

Rabble Rabble Rabble...

Answers with Gold Bars needed for the mob please!!? Are you even reading this CCP Question

Why is bandwidth being used as an excuse to nerf our Gallente droneboats hard? Where's the blog? The summary and justification and all the changes being done to neuter us Gallente dawgs?

OneSock
Crown Industries
Posted - 2007.10.25 11:18:00 - [125]
 

So let me get this straight, CCP see drones as an overpowered primary weapon ?

So that would be the only primary weapon that can be targeted and destroyed ?

Yeah very bright. I look forward to the day I can shoot the launchers off those damn caldari.

If you want them to be an 2ndary weapon, then don't nerf the ships ability to carry them, nerf the damage they put out. Keep the Eos drone config as is but reduce heavy drone DPS. Then on the true drone boats such as Domi, myrm, etc, increase the drone bonus.

Much better way of balancing out the Eos IMO.

prsr
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.10.25 11:43:00 - [126]
 

The Eos gets gang link bonuses? I'm sure nobody noticed since their introduction.

Riddick Valer
Posted - 2007.10.25 12:52:00 - [127]
 

If the Ishkur is getting limited to 5 lights, I wouldn't mind seeing the following change.

Remove the Hybrid Damage bonus
Add +5 or 10% drone hitpoints+damage.

It would be nice to actually have a real frigate drone ship.

Sgt Napalm
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.10.25 17:40:00 - [128]
 

Bump this. Do not let this topic fall.

CHAOS100
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.10.25 18:17:00 - [129]
 

I guess I am glad I trained minmatar cruiser 5.

Past couple years specializing in t2 gallente ships and drones have really been worth it eh? /sarcasm

Why nerf ishtar's drone bay?

BTW to the people complaining about the nighthawk -- it can absolutely **** things that other races have trouble with. The vagabond loses its shield in about 30 seconds to a good nighthawk. Then again if it is so bad, I guess maybe tell CCP to lower its tank down to something more on par with the other races?


Lord DeFault
Minmatar
Serenity Prime
Posted - 2007.10.25 18:36:00 - [130]
 

Leave the bloody curse alone. Dam whiners.

If you can't shoot a Domi's drones, Jump off a cliff.

Why the mym has BS dps... I don't know...
Should have 100 drone day :p

Bring back 15 Drones. Wi want dronneesss

Ubaricous
Fat Children with Opinions
Posted - 2007.10.25 21:22:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: CHAOS100
Past couple years specializing in t2 gallente ships and drones have really been worth it eh? /sarcasm

Ha, yeah, it's not as if Gallente have been clearly top of the pile for a long time now, or anything. (Yeah - /sarcasm.)

The Domi, Ishtar and Eos needed a nerf. While I think this nerf may hit a little too hard for its own good, something had to be done, you can't really deny that.

Jenna Shame
Posted - 2007.10.25 21:44:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Ubaricous
Originally by: CHAOS100
Past couple years specializing in t2 gallente ships and drones have really been worth it eh? /sarcasm

Ha, yeah, it's not as if Gallente have been clearly top of the pile for a long time now, or anything. (Yeah - /sarcasm.)

The Domi, Ishtar and Eos needed a nerf. While I think this nerf may hit a little too hard for its own good, something had to be done, you can't really deny that.


Yea cause gallante really controlled the ganking, solo, pve and fleet game.....

Oh wait they didn't....


Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2007.10.25 21:46:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
The Eos has been brought in line with the other Fleet Command ships. It has, for a long time, been immensely overpowered compared to the Claymore, Damnation and Vulture. It was the only Fleet Command ship that could out damage it's equivalent Field Command. If you don't think that's wrong, then can I have some of what you're smoking?

Are you going to boost the Eos's tank? It has the poorest tank out of all the fleet commandships. It's the only Fleet command ship that has a poorer tank than it's equivalent field command... If you don't think that's wrong, then sir, can I have some of what you're smoking?

Gaius Sejanus
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2007.10.25 23:21:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Gaius Sejanus on 25/10/2007 23:26:16
Gotta say that I really do not like these changes at all. I've always known that CCP loathes drones with the burning hatred of a thousand suns, but this is going overboard even by their standards.

Sure a theoretical EOS could maybe possibly outdamage and Astarte, but the circumstances which would cause that to happen would almost never actually occur. So now the Eos gets a double nerf, leaving it a big green pile of suck. I was planning on starting Battlecruiser 5, but now I'm glad I'm not going to waste those 28 days of training.

Remove 1 turret, and reduce the drone bay a bit, but let it keep 125 MB/s of bandwidth...it's not like it gets a damage or hp bonus to its drones. Or; see below.

The Ishkur is even less forgiveable...although I admit to bias, since I trained Assault Ships 5. Can you really tell me that ANYONE would train it to level 5 given the proposed changes? As it stands, each rank of assault ships above 2 lets you swap 1 light for 1 medium (and keep no spares). 3 Meds/2 Lights and no backup is not exactly overwhelming damage. Now, all you get for going 4 --> 5 is an extra spare drone slot and a meager range increase. Who would spend the 15ish days of training for that? Nobody I know.

Want to make it function within the bandwidth rules?
Gallente Frigate bonus: +5% small hybrid damage/level, +5 m3 drone bay/level.

Assault Ships Bonus: +10% small hybrid optimal range/level, +5 MB/s Bandwidth/Level

25 m3 drone bay default, which gets upgraded to 50. 15 MB/s bandwidth, upgraded to 40 at Assault Ships 5. 3 mediums, 2 lights, and 10m3 of backup space.

The net change is a very very tiny improvement from being able to carry 2 lights or 1 medium as spares, and gives it a "real" bonus (we'll just overlook how that new bonus give the ship functional equality to how it works already). After that, you could start looking into the other 7 assault ships and giving them a "real" bonus too.

Assault ships already struggle as it is, why make one of the few decent ones even worse?

As for the Eos, here's a potential fix: Sentry Drones only need 15 MB/s of Bandwidth to run. You're still limited to 5 deployed drones by your skills, but at 75 MB/s you can just barely launch a full flight of sentries. Trade the flexibility of heavies (what with their ability to move), for greater firepower. It also makes logical sense, since it would take less effort to control something when you don't have to regulate its movement.

Elohllird
Funky Chill Collective
Posted - 2007.10.25 23:42:00 - [135]
 

I have nothing intelligent to post here coz im drunk and an idiot...Razz

But is it me or is CCP being run by ******s who dont understand the game or who dont play it often.
Nerf this Nerf.... blah blah..

Stella Artois ftw


Torrence Osti
A.W.M
Posted - 2007.10.26 00:15:00 - [136]
 

I knew I should've went Caldari or Amarr when I started... Neutral

AlvynNevins
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2007.10.26 00:36:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Torrence Osti
I knew I should've went Caldari or Amarr when I started... Neutral


They titled the game "Caldari online" not without a matter.

Ehh...

Ohh, wait Sad

Jin'n'Tonic
Posted - 2007.10.26 01:17:00 - [138]
 

i see the ishtar now can only carry 5 heavies with no replacments, what a load of bollox ccp, i want my fecking skill points back.


why do you nitwits keep screwing with things wihout thinking carefully about what your doing??? Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes


Mr Ignitious
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2007.10.26 01:20:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Torrence Osti
I knew I should've went Caldari or Amarr when I started... Neutral



you know...i got that same feeling...my friend convinced me to start playing eve because it was cool. he said gallente were a very good race (storyline wise) and had my favorite feature, minions (in this case drones) now i'm left with...this...

man it would've been nice to have had the sense to go minmitar like my instincts had screamed. but w/e, i guess i'll be cross training now, more training time for me, more money for CCP, gj guys you have me hooked that well ugh

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2007.10.26 04:49:00 - [140]
 


Cyan Nuevo
Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships
Posted - 2007.10.26 05:31:00 - [141]
 

Nope, Pattern, that's not enough said. I don't have a clue what you're trying to prove. Maybe that you can sacrifice gank for a better tank? I think we all know that already...

Alkeena
Gallente
Dynamic Solutions
Posted - 2007.10.26 05:51:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Cyan Nuevo
Nope, Pattern, that's not enough said. I don't have a clue what you're trying to prove. Maybe that you can sacrifice gank for a better tank? I think we all know that already...


He's saying the field command tanks better than the fleet command, and the damage of the fleet command is about to be nerfed. If you include the fact that the info links are arguably the worst of the bunch, why would you fly the fleet (eos) over the field (astarte)?

~Alkeena


Chavu
Minmatar
GK inc.
Posted - 2007.10.26 06:10:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
The Eos has been brought in line with the other Fleet Command ships. It has, for a long time, been immensely overpowered compared to the Claymore, Damnation and Vulture. It was the only Fleet Command ship that could out damage it's equivalent Field Command. If you don't think that's wrong, then can I have some of what you're smoking?


Flawless Victory.

If anyone thinks the EOS doesn't need a nerf, then you wouldn't mind if the rapier got +25m3 drone bay per level +3 highs and +3 launcher slots. Oh wait, wouldn't that make it stupidly overpowered? You whiners are lame.

Emolayshun
Posted - 2007.10.26 06:53:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Emolayshun on 26/10/2007 06:53:47
Originally by: CCP Atropos
The Eos has been brought in line with the other Fleet Command ships. It has, for a long time, been immensely overpowered compared to the Claymore, Damnation and Vulture since it was actually capable of doing damage. It was the only Fleet Command ship that could actually do damage similar to it's equivalent Field Command. If you don't think that's wrong, then can I have some of what you're smoking? The Eos should be used for useless gang links and looking cool.

Amirite?

Alski
Ministers Of Destruction.
Posted - 2007.10.26 07:00:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Chavu
Originally by: CCP Atropos
The Eos has been brought in line with the other Fleet Command ships. It has, for a long time, been immensely overpowered compared to the Claymore, Damnation and Vulture. It was the only Fleet Command ship that could out damage it's equivalent Field Command. If you don't think that's wrong, then can I have some of what you're smoking?


Flawless Victory.

If anyone thinks the EOS doesn't need a nerf, then you wouldn't mind if the rapier got +25m3 drone bay per level +3 highs and +3 launcher slots. Oh wait, wouldn't that make it stupidly overpowered? You whiners are lame.


Thats funney i don't remember matari being the drone race, and i seem to remember a rapier is a recon, not a CS, but anyway....

Its not the fact that its being "balanced" that’s ****ing people off, because its not being balanced, its being nurfed wayyy too hard.

In addition to the fact its gang link bonuses are the worst and most useless of all the command ships, it now also gets...
- less drone bandwidth
- smaller drone bay
- less turrets

It’s a Creodron ship, its meant to be a droneboat!!, nerfing its drone capability and capacity just makes zero sense, if its DPS is too high, CCP should just lose a turret slot or two and give it a decent and useful extra gang link bonus instead of its hybrid turret bonus, of course that would mean that they would have to acknowledge the fact that its current gang link bonus sucks, which probably won’t happen but whatever..

I suspect a fair bit of the anger of this change is coming from people like myself who have a lot more SP in drones than gunnery, in practice we will never do the kind of damage these stupid EFT whiners say is possible, and for those of us wanting a nice T2 droneboat with a heavy tank that can field 5 heavys we are basically getting the finger and being told "no stfu, go back to flying a domi"

But yeah lets just make all ships the exactly the same, then we can move on to whining about people having more SP than others, then once everyone gets zero day level 5’s and max skills, we can make everyone stupidly rich so isk is no longer a factor, and then we can all go play WoW-in-space and live happily ever after in happy fluffy gankbear land... woo.

Shocked

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2007.10.26 09:59:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Alski
Itís a Creodron ship, its meant to be a droneboat!!


And it has the biggest drone potential of all field commands. So the problem is?

Compare the damnations missile potential to that of the sacriledge.

umop 3pisdn
Minmatar
Fnck the blob.
Posted - 2007.10.26 11:20:00 - [147]
 

If only CCP would look at the effect the nos nerf has had on drone boats before going nerf crazy with the nerfbat.

5 turrets and the ability to use 5 heavy drones would be fine for the eos.

The ishkur is not an overpowered ship. It is however a good ship, though with the nos nerf in full swing it will have a hard time (and couldnt break) a harpy or hawk.
What it can do is kill ravens, as long as they are torp fitted rather than cruise...
How the hell will it do that with only light drones? your guess is as good as mine... I suspect its "overpowered" in that people think it can own other AFs... changing to light drones wouldnt change frigate vs frig combat but will gimp its DPS so much that it will be worthless.

If our drone boats are basically becoming undergunned blaster ships will CCP at least give them their missing low slots/PG?

Will you also rethink any plans to give non drone BS's more drone bay, since there is enough for frig pilots to contend with when taking on a BS without a zombie army of t2 warriors coming at them. Yes i KNOW its bigger than a frig.

Also while you're there nerfing drones remove the drone bay from the taranis and give it a decent ammount of cap instead

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.10.26 12:37:00 - [148]
 

for me, the loss of turrets is not a bad thing on the Eos. Its a fleet command ship, not a field command ship. It still has 7 high slots, so it can still field 3 gang links and 4 guns. No problems there.

Info warfare links are poor, I agree. Sensor integrity, for example, is a throw back to when ECM was king and most ships packed at least 1. Now its use is marginal at best and to be honest a link that only boosts resistance to ECM is like making the Passive defence and shield harmonizing links only boost 1 resist (eg Thermal). So a reworking of the category would be nice, and to be fair have it focus on something the Gallente actually do (theyíre not exactly renown for the EW abilities really are they?) - in addition, it would be nice if it complemented something the ship did, like happens with the Damnation, Vulture (ship bonus to resistances + link bonus to the same) and to a lesser degree Claymore (ship bonus to tracking, link bonus to speed).

My issue with the Eos is the fact that as a Fleet command ship, making it a drone boat is just mad - especially when its damage bonus is in turrets. Fleet command ships are, as far as I can tell, ships that should stay at range in order to keep them out of harms way. As a drone boat you're forced to engage < ~50km unless you want to fit drone links, which chews into the only slots that are giving you a damage bonus. Basically, its entire setup is confused, creating something thats not really a drone boat, but not really a turret ship either. Short of scrapping it and starting again, and taking the fact that its a CroeDron ship and therefore by default a drone boat, I would suggest that it loses its damage bonus to turrets and gains it for drones instead so is based off a Myrm rather than a Brutix, and instead of a command bonus to drone bay, give it to drone control range and or speed. That way at least, this fleet command ship (and as it is one I don't care a jot about it losing its soloing ability) can stay at range, rather than having a huge "gank me" written on its side when its running links at near point blank range. It does mean that by default the links maybe should be tailored towards drones rather than info warfare, so maybe drone speed, control range and tracking? (not damage for gods sake!). But thatís more a conversation starter than anything else.

Personally I think it sadly indicative of the confused setup of the ship that it is rarely seen running links, and when it is (for example on mine) its not its racial type its running Ė I tend to run skirmish on mine as the ship bonusí to links is barely worth worrying about, especially compared to mind link implants. Lowering the DPS is a good thing imo, but whilst its being worked on, it desperately needs it role and manner of meeting that role defining.

OneSock
Crown Industries
Posted - 2007.10.26 13:54:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Sable Schroedinger

My issue with the Eos is the fact that as a Fleet command ship, making it a drone boat is just mad - especially when its damage bonus is in turrets. Fleet command ships are, as far as I can tell, ships that should stay at range in order to keep them out of harms way. As a drone boat you're forced to engage < ~50km unless you want to fit drone links, which chews into the only slots that are giving you a damage bonus. Basically, its entire setup is confused, creating something thats not really a drone boat, but not really a turret ship either. Short of scrapping it and starting again, and taking the fact that its a CroeDron ship and therefore by default a drone boat, I would suggest that it loses its damage bonus to turrets and gains it for drones instead so is based off a Myrm rather than a Brutix, and instead of a command bonus to drone bay, give it to drone control range and or speed. That way at least, this fleet command ship (and as it is one I don't care a jot about it losing its soloing ability) can stay at range, rather than having a huge "gank me" written on its side when its running links at near point blank range. It does mean that by default the links maybe should be tailored towards drones rather than info warfare, so maybe drone speed, control range and tracking? (not damage for gods sake!). But thatís more a conversation starter than anything else.



Well that's my suggestion, just scrap the Eos and change it into a myrm based drone boat. Give it bonuses to drone control range damage, but don't let it run heavy drones. Instead drop the bw requirement on sentries to 15mb. This way it can sit at 50k and dish it's fleet bonus and drone damage. leave the 4 remaining turrets unbonussed.

Nobody in their right mind would use it solo but it would still have a place in fleet support.

Harmon Illuminati
Section XIII
Cursed Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.26 14:07:00 - [150]
 

yawn, break. WOW! lets break more and more and more stuff and make everything cookie cutter with no variety, YAWN! Drones have allways been balanced, you kill the drones they loose some DPS etc, surely Just making shields not come back on scoop was balance enough to not require a total break in the form of BW.

GG CCP your owning yourself


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