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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2007.10.24 14:26:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 24/10/2007 14:28:45


Just wrote a big post about this that got lost when posting....Thanks Forum! Evil or Very Mad

In short... VERY DISAPPOINTED
<those who don't care to read further skip to the red at the end!>

The drone changes to bandwidth were sold as a buff to Gallente drone users and the reality is a hard nerf to two of our most loved ships.

The Ishtar: Great. These ships are still one of the best in their class and offer drone specced players a ship to blow stuff up with very effectively.

The Myrmidon: Frustrating but we'll manage with not having 5 heavy drones. It did do very nice DPS combined with awesome tank and some EWar possibilites (which I guess was maybe a bit imblanced). This change would be better on newly built Myrmidons imho, allowing the old ones to go out 'gracefully'...
It makes the Ishtar the realisticly best drone boat for damage again. Fine.

The Eos: I'm perplexed.

The Eos is a Creodron ship which means a drone boat. By CCP design it never had the drone damage bonus, but instead inherits the Brutix Hybrid damage bonus making it like a cheap Astarte (why?).

If the damage is WAY too high then I'm sure 99% of people would happily see the 2 turrets go along with the Hybrid bonus bringing the damage 'into line' - to see it be changed to the Myrmidon hull and allowed bandwidth for 5 Heavy Drones. As it stood the Eos' best point was its utility - keeping it a good drone boat keeps it useful.

This would MAKE SENSE for a Creodron ship... Nerfing this fairly high skill to use 'T2 Drone boat' to do less drone damage than a Myrmidon, at the same time as removing 2 turrets AND nerfing the maximum dronebay does NOT make sense. You're nuking the DPS (fine), the turrets (Fine)....

BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD....LEAVE US SOMETHING...LEAVE US THE FULL UTILITY OF OUR DRONES!!!




Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.10.24 14:38:00 - [92]
 

As noted elsewhere, in order for the Eos to not suck in all roles, we need one or more of the following:

- a boost to the infowar gang links, making them as generally useful as the other 3 types
- a boost to Eos tank, bringing it to par with the other fleet commands
- some more drone bandwidth (no, don't need 5 x heavy, but some more than 75).
- the gun damage bonus changed to a drone damage bonus, to give it a main weapon system with at least some range instead of 3km

Note that I said "one or more", there, not "all of these".

Bringing the drone bay size back to the old one would also be nice, of course. What sort of braindead move is it to reduce drone bay size, when the whole point of this drone bandwidth thing was supposed to be bigger dronebays and more drone versatility? Sigh.

Majickthise
Posted - 2007.10.24 14:41:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Majickthise on 24/10/2007 14:55:28
what about...

eos with 125Mb bandwidth and a 100m3 drone bay.

5 high (2 turrets)
6 mids
6 lows

7.5% per BC level drone damage / hp
7.5% armor rep effectiveness per BC level
+50m drone bay per CS level
+3% IW ganglinks effectivness per CS level

bit more drone user friendly. bit more tanky. dps is much lower than current on TQ.

Canine Fiend
Minmatar
Hidden Refuge
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2007.10.24 14:49:00 - [94]
 

Was the OP's question ever answered? Can the ishtar still use 5 TII heavies? I use an ishtar for ratting and I rely on the drones for my dmg output. I'd be very upset if my rigged Ishtar is useless.

Jenna Shame
Posted - 2007.10.24 14:49:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
The Eos has been brought in line with the other Fleet Command ships. It has, for a long time, been immensely overpowered compared to the Claymore, Damnation and Vulture. It was the only Fleet Command ship that could out damage it's equivalent Field Command. If you don't think that's wrong, then can I have some of what you're smoking?


If it was so overpowered, why did it take you 2 years to figure it out?

Seriously.

Jevnikar
Gallente
Destructive Influence
Posted - 2007.10.24 15:26:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
The Eos has been brought in line with the other Fleet Command ships. It has, for a long time, been immensely overpowered compared to the Claymore, Damnation and Vulture. It was the only Fleet Command ship that could out damage it's equivalent Field Command. If you don't think that's wrong, then can I have some of what you're smoking?


Your statement is right yea.. but then ppl are naab`s and this is the only reason drone ships rock... so nerfing eos will be like wtf ARE YOU ON ? give me some stuf as well.
Pop myrmy`s drones and it`s crap "do the same to eos" specialy with uber tanks when fights rly take time. Pop drones to mega and all of a suden you can tank it.. it`s freekin crap to nerf smth that can be easily counterd on field by skill.

The nerf i would aprove is the (+50m3 to drone bay) bonus to be changed for smth else so you dont have supply of every single drone in game.

SN3263827
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.24 15:34:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Canine Fiend
Was the OP's question ever answered? Can the ishtar still use 5 TII heavies? I use an ishtar for ratting and I rely on the drones for my dmg output. I'd be very upset if my rigged Ishtar is useless.
The ishtar hasn't changed at all.

Haerana
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.24 15:45:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
The Eos has been brought in line with the other Fleet Command ships. It has, for a long time, been immensely overpowered compared to the Claymore, Damnation and Vulture. It was the only Fleet Command ship that could out damage it's equivalent Field Command. If you don't think that's wrong, then can I have some of what you're smoking?


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

oh wait your serious?

How is it CCP seem to know so little about their game?
I get why you THINK (its not actually) its overpowered. but why nerf it? i honestly dont get your reasoning for the nerfs... why not change it?
Get rid of the crappy hybrid damage bonus. give it a drone damage bonus. lose 2turrets along with that. give it a static large drone bay and change the drone bay bonus to that of a new tank bonus.
THEN it maybe inline with other fleet command ships.

Just WOW. i mean the whole out damage an astarte? AHAHAHAHA thats to fkin funny to believe.
Even if it could. it cant tank near worth a damn of the other 3 fleet command ships. Who ALL get better warfare link bonuses.

Jenna Shame
Posted - 2007.10.24 15:45:00 - [99]
 

If a drone boat as the same DPS as a non-drone boat, then the drone boat is already inferior to the non-drone boat.

This is a fact I think few who haven't used the little friends known as drones understand.

here'n'there
Posted - 2007.10.24 15:48:00 - [100]
 

after reading this topic, ccp will nerf all other fleet command ships to be in line with new eos Laughing

Fenderson
Posted - 2007.10.24 16:39:00 - [101]
 

according to EFT, an astarte with full neutrons, 3 mag stabs and 5 hammerhead IIs with max skills gives you 920 DPS.

Eos with full neutrons, 3 mag stabs, and 5 ogre IIs gives 927 DPS.

Its not a huge difference, but all other fleet commands do less damage than their field command counterparts.

i would have to agree with the devs on this one, its a totally reasonable nerf.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.10.24 16:46:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 24/10/2007 16:46:50
Originally by: Fenderson
according to EFT, an astarte with full neutrons, 3 mag stabs and 5 hammerhead IIs with max skills gives you 920 DPS.

Eos with full neutrons, 3 mag stabs, and 5 ogre IIs gives 927 DPS.

Its not a huge difference, but all other fleet commands do less damage than their field command counterparts.

i would have to agree with the devs on this one, its a totally reasonable nerf.


I think you're missing the point, most people agree that the Eos needed some nerfing in the DPS department.

It's the magnitude of the nerf that's the problem. It lost 2 turrets and massive chunk of drone DPS and some drone bay size, without gaining anything.

Since it's already the worst fleet command as far as actual fleet command / gang boost capabilities go, this change leaves the ship without a role.

I'm all for removing the ability of the Eos to be a solo pwnmobile. But it needs some help in the fleet support department if it's now expected to compete in that role with the other 3.

That help could come in form of better gang links, better tank, reduced drone nerf... whatever.

AliG
Posted - 2007.10.24 17:10:00 - [103]
 

CCP: Please listen to this guy, he makes sense :)

Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 24/10/2007 14:28:45


Just wrote a big post about this that got lost when posting....Thanks Forum! Evil or Very Mad

In short... VERY DISAPPOINTED
<those who don't care to read further skip to the red at the end!>

The drone changes to bandwidth were sold as a buff to Gallente drone users and the reality is a hard nerf to two of our most loved ships.

The Ishtar: Great. These ships are still one of the best in their class and offer drone specced players a ship to blow stuff up with very effectively.

The Myrmidon: Frustrating but we'll manage with not having 5 heavy drones. It did do very nice DPS combined with awesome tank and some EWar possibilites (which I guess was maybe a bit imblanced). This change would be better on newly built Myrmidons imho, allowing the old ones to go out 'gracefully'...
It makes the Ishtar the realisticly best drone boat for damage again. Fine.

The Eos: I'm perplexed.

The Eos is a Creodron ship which means a drone boat. By CCP design it never had the drone damage bonus, but instead inherits the Brutix Hybrid damage bonus making it like a cheap Astarte (why?).

If the damage is WAY too high then I'm sure 99% of people would happily see the 2 turrets go along with the Hybrid bonus bringing the damage 'into line' - to see it be changed to the Myrmidon hull and allowed bandwidth for 5 Heavy Drones. As it stood the Eos' best point was its utility - keeping it a good drone boat keeps it useful.

This would MAKE SENSE for a Creodron ship... Nerfing this fairly high skill to use 'T2 Drone boat' to do less drone damage than a Myrmidon, at the same time as removing 2 turrets AND nerfing the maximum dronebay does NOT make sense. You're nuking the DPS (fine), the turrets (Fine)....

BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD....LEAVE US SOMETHING...LEAVE US THE FULL UTILITY OF OUR DRONES!!!





SN3263827
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.10.24 17:18:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Fenderson
according to EFT, an astarte with full neutrons, 3 mag stabs and 5 hammerhead IIs with max skills gives you 920 DPS.

Eos with full neutrons, 3 mag stabs, and 5 ogre IIs gives 927 DPS.

Its not a huge difference, but all other fleet commands do less damage than their field command counterparts.

i would have to agree with the devs on this one, its a totally reasonable nerf.
This argument is only valid if DPS is the only aspect of a ship that makes any difference to its in-game performance.

On the contrary, the eos is substandard for linking, substandard for tanking, and now barely average for DPS.

How is that balanced?

here'n'there
Posted - 2007.10.24 17:43:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Fenderson
according to EFT, an astarte with full neutrons, 3 mag stabs and 5 hammerhead IIs with max skills gives you 920 DPS.

Eos with full neutrons, 3 mag stabs, and 5 ogre IIs gives 927 DPS.

Its not a huge difference, but all other fleet commands do less damage than their field command counterparts.

i would have to agree with the devs on this one, its a totally reasonable nerf.


will you ever fit 3 magstabs on eos?

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.10.24 17:54:00 - [106]
 

Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 24/10/2007 17:54:43
Originally by: here'n'there

will you ever fit 3 magstabs on eos?


No. Actually, most fittings don't include even one.

And most realistic fittings also use ions, not neutrons.

Don't let that disturb the EFT-powered DPS-brigade, though Very Happy

DeadProphet
Black Eclipse Corp
KenZoku
Posted - 2007.10.24 18:31:00 - [107]
 

WTF

I must of missed the dozens of threads complaining about how oeverpowered the Eos is......

Ridley Tree
Veto.
Posted - 2007.10.24 18:41:00 - [108]
 

Eos was over-powered. Now its about as useful as a wet noodle. I'm very happy I only trained up for the Astarte at the moment.

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.24 18:46:00 - [109]
 

Eos now = OMGBBQAWESOMENESS.

Eos after patch = ...what? I honestly don't know.


By all means nerf it, lord knows it needs it. But make it worth something. Leave it it's drones, and nerf the turrets. Its a drone ship for chrissakes, and it's going to be worse at drones than the much cheaper Ishtar? Show me another Fleet Command Ship that is outclassed by it's equivalent HAC.

Jason Marshall
Gallente
Mad Bombers
Guns and Alcohol
Posted - 2007.10.24 19:04:00 - [110]
 

Im all for the myrmidon BUFF. I always use mediums in that thing and now i get more waves. Maybe a logistics varient? Ever think that combat drones take more bandwidth then there logistical counterparts? maybe ill be able to field heavy maintenance bots AND some medium damage drones. Im excited i really am. So **** all you bastards that have been misusing the myrmidon the last year.

Veng3ance
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.10.24 19:05:00 - [111]
 

A few things concern me about this nerf.

1) Eos going from 5 Heavies to 5 Mediums AND you remove 2 turrets? Shouldn't it be one or the other, I think both is overlooking the fact that the Eos trades damage for tank, and also has to get into blaster range.

2) You can not put the damage of the Eos exactly in-line with other fleet CS's. The vulture can shoot 200km, can the Eos? The Claymore and Damnation can tank like mad men. Can the Eos?

3) The Myrm does NOT need a drone nerf. I remember this discussion when the ship was coming out, everyone and their mother agrees 5 Medium drones is ****ty damage for a BC. Especially considering with a tank all you can fit is 6 electron blasters in the high Rolling Eyes

A better suggestion for the Myrm would be to remove a mid-slot taking away its possible Ewar capabilities. Give it the 5 heavies back, I mean honestly don't tell me your doing DPS comparisons with Neutron blasters on a Myrm. Lets be realistic.

Veng3ance
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.10.24 19:09:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: SN3263827
Originally by: Fenderson
according to EFT, an astarte with full neutrons, 3 mag stabs and 5 hammerhead IIs with max skills gives you 920 DPS.

Eos with full neutrons, 3 mag stabs, and 5 ogre IIs gives 927 DPS.

Its not a huge difference, but all other fleet commands do less damage than their field command counterparts.

i would have to agree with the devs on this one, its a totally reasonable nerf.
This argument is only valid if DPS is the only aspect of a ship that makes any difference to its in-game performance.

On the contrary, the eos is substandard for linking, substandard for tanking, and now barely average for DPS.

How is that balanced?


And QFT

Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Posted - 2007.10.24 19:12:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Kai Lae
Is a 16.8% boost on a 2% module. Now, if you were to use a T1 BC, you'd get 14% on a 2% module - the ship bonus gives you a total of 2.8% difference. This is pretty much not even worth mentioning. If I wanted to train command 5, it would be 17.3% - so the difference, with max skills, would be 3.3%. That's 2 rank 6 skills and 1 rank 5 skill, for 3.3%. I challenge anyone anywhere in the game to find something similarly dismal.


Dip on this! Shocked
I have command ships lvl5 and considering to train up warfare link specialist to lvl5 too but .. meh whats the point?

Jenna Shame
Posted - 2007.10.24 20:16:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Patch86
Eos now = OMGBBQAWESOMENESS.

Eos after patch = ...what? I honestly don't know.


By all means nerf it, lord knows it needs it. But make it worth something. Leave it it's drones, and nerf the turrets. Its a drone ship for chrissakes, and it's going to be worse at drones than the much cheaper Ishtar? Show me another Fleet Command Ship that is outclassed by it's equivalent HAC.


Oh Jebus, don't say this, you KNOW what the current dev team will do to 'fix' this.

Mr Rive
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.10.24 20:22:00 - [115]
 

I havent read 90% of this post, but i dont know whether youve ever actually tried putting up the eos vs the astarte for raw DPS. Im pretty sure the astarte would win hands down. As for it bieng overpowered, what about the claymore? it gives a bonus to speed, web and scram range, whereas the Eos gives a bonus to sensor damps, which oh look! youve nerfed too!

Sgt Napalm
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.10.24 20:33:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 24/10/2007 14:28:45


Just wrote a big post about this that got lost when posting....Thanks Forum! Evil or Very Mad

In short... VERY DISAPPOINTED
<those who don't care to read further skip to the red at the end!>

The drone changes to bandwidth were sold as a buff to Gallente drone users and the reality is a hard nerf to two of our most loved ships.

The Ishtar: Great. These ships are still one of the best in their class and offer drone specced players a ship to blow stuff up with very effectively.

The Myrmidon: Frustrating but we'll manage with not having 5 heavy drones. It did do very nice DPS combined with awesome tank and some EWar possibilites (which I guess was maybe a bit imblanced). This change would be better on newly built Myrmidons imho, allowing the old ones to go out 'gracefully'...
It makes the Ishtar the realisticly best drone boat for damage again. Fine.

The Eos: I'm perplexed.

The Eos is a Creodron ship which means a drone boat. By CCP design it never had the drone damage bonus, but instead inherits the Brutix Hybrid damage bonus making it like a cheap Astarte (why?).

If the damage is WAY too high then I'm sure 99% of people would happily see the 2 turrets go along with the Hybrid bonus bringing the damage 'into line' - to see it be changed to the Myrmidon hull and allowed bandwidth for 5 Heavy Drones. As it stood the Eos' best point was its utility - keeping it a good drone boat keeps it useful.

This would MAKE SENSE for a Creodron ship... Nerfing this fairly high skill to use 'T2 Drone boat' to do less drone damage than a Myrmidon, at the same time as removing 2 turrets AND nerfing the maximum dronebay does NOT make sense. You're nuking the DPS (fine), the turrets (Fine)....

BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD....LEAVE US SOMETHING...LEAVE US THE FULL UTILITY OF OUR DRONES!!!






Quote, New signature crew coming

AdmiralFreeman
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2007.10.24 20:44:00 - [117]
 

Edited by: AdmiralFreeman on 24/10/2007 20:49:18
Thanks for nerfing the EOS too cppEvil or Very Mad, I think you should stop smoking the crap you are getting in Iceland, doesn't seem that healthy!!!

We train up our skills with certain goals in mind... when we finaly get there, you change the rules... that's simply not fair and ****ing people off.

PS : Can I exhcange my drones skills and CS skills to something else ? and can you take back EOS at the price I payed them ?

hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
Posted - 2007.10.24 20:54:00 - [118]
 

WTF is with the people, including devs, blindly going by the max theoretical DPS. Seriously, get a clue (you too, "devs")

Have you ever fitted the ship? Have you ever even tried to fly the ship? 3 MFS and Neutron Blasters.... right.. show me how many people actually fly such a setup?

umop 3pisdn
Minmatar
Fnck the blob.
Posted - 2007.10.24 21:02:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 24/10/2007 14:28:45


Just wrote a big post about this that got lost when posting....Thanks Forum! Evil or Very Mad

In short... VERY DISAPPOINTED
<those who don't care to read further skip to the red at the end!>

The drone changes to bandwidth were sold as a buff to Gallente drone users and the reality is a hard nerf to two of our most loved ships.

The Ishtar: Great. These ships are still one of the best in their class and offer drone specced players a ship to blow stuff up with very effectively.

The Myrmidon: Frustrating but we'll manage with not having 5 heavy drones. It did do very nice DPS combined with awesome tank and some EWar possibilites (which I guess was maybe a bit imblanced). This change would be better on newly built Myrmidons imho, allowing the old ones to go out 'gracefully'...
It makes the Ishtar the realisticly best drone boat for damage again. Fine.

The Eos: I'm perplexed.

The Eos is a Creodron ship which means a drone boat. By CCP design it never had the drone damage bonus, but instead inherits the Brutix Hybrid damage bonus making it like a cheap Astarte (why?).

If the damage is WAY too high then I'm sure 99% of people would happily see the 2 turrets go along with the Hybrid bonus bringing the damage 'into line' - to see it be changed to the Myrmidon hull and allowed bandwidth for 5 Heavy Drones. As it stood the Eos' best point was its utility - keeping it a good drone boat keeps it useful.

This would MAKE SENSE for a Creodron ship... Nerfing this fairly high skill to use 'T2 Drone boat' to do less drone damage than a Myrmidon, at the same time as removing 2 turrets AND nerfing the maximum dronebay does NOT make sense. You're nuking the DPS (fine), the turrets (Fine)....

BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD....LEAVE US SOMETHING...LEAVE US THE FULL UTILITY OF OUR DRONES!!!






I understand your point and you're right, ccp are being ****s again, i've also heard you wont be able to scoop drones to refill their shield HP anymore, if thats true start training another race now.

I've been around long enough to know that when ccp is intent on breaking something that they will not be stopped, so whining wont really help.
CCP Wants to bring the eos in line with the vulture and damnation in terms of damage, those 2 ships tank far better than the eos.
They are also seen very. very. rarely imo because they are ****.

I'm about 25 days away from finishing all my training specifically for an eos (just long range targeting and logistics stuff to go) but im going to make a complete about face and get an astarte... the eos was already cheaper than the astarte by far, but dont let how the game actually pans out fool you, stats are much more important.

No, im not quiting over this but a world without drones or an eve where every ship has 5 vanilla small drones is just stupid.

Sgt Napalm
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.10.25 00:02:00 - [120]
 

I'm working on a siggy right now but it's going to be a couple days. If somebody wants to beat me to punch do it up. Evil or Very MadI am not happy by this DOUBLE nerf.


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