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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.10.15 08:38:00 - [31]
 

Each race should have one 'heavy' and one 'light' AF.

Heavy:

- Extra 5%/lvl dmg/ROF bonus
- Tracking and Missile Accuracy penalty
- Immunity to webs
- 'Tanking AF'

Light:

- Tracking/Missile Accuracy Bonus
- +25% base Velocity
- 'Speed' AF

Norris Packard
Wings of Redemption
Black Flag Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.15 08:57:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
Each race should have one 'heavy' and one 'light' AF.

Heavy:

- Extra 5%/lvl dmg/ROF bonus
- Tracking and Missile Accuracy penalty
- Immunity to webs
- 'Tanking AF'

Light:

- Tracking/Missile Accuracy Bonus
- +25% base Velocity
- 'Speed' AF


No. they dont need a speed assult frig. All of the assult frigs need a bit of a speed boost and mass reduction they should preform like HACs do to cruisers and atm they are falling short of that. The enyo and ishkur both have less base speed than their tech1 counterpart. The assults should be able to outrun mwding cruisers and thats hard to do in an enyo compared to a deimos with no speed mods other than the mwd and that makes no sense at all. they don't need to be interceptors but they should at least act like frigs not bricks. Also all of the AFs need the 4th bonus it is lame that they have neglected that for so long. And yes the vengance would be much better with the 5th high as a 2nd low slot.

Neu Bastian
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.10.23 00:14:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
All that AFs need right now is a real fourth bonus, and a reasonable mass reduction (seriously, they're considerably havier than Destroyers!).
If they still suck after that, we can have this discussion again.



Agreed. I say Make 'em Gankier and Tankier...I'll be happy when a AF can have a reasonable dog fight with a crusier

Neu

Kilrex
Posted - 2007.10.23 00:46:00 - [34]
 

Immunity to webs is bad, make it a 10% reduction in web affects per level.

Definitely need to have the resists built in though.

Role bonus for web range would really be nice!

Emperor D'Hoffryn
EXTERMINATUS.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2007.10.23 02:23:00 - [35]
 

I like the idea of a special gang bonus, though it would be kinda limiting....but we dont need more solo pwn mobiles.

so, first step is remove the resist bonus, build it in, and give us something neat, one of the 2 ships should get better range, other type more damage, maybe more tracking, etc.

Then, give 1 type a role bonus to tanking if in gang with other assault frigs, stacking penalized so you dont get any better over like 4 AF, perhaps goes away if other ships are in gang. Other types would get more damage.

If the bonus went away if other ship types are in gang, people would form up wings of assault frigs, 4 per gang. This would perhaps help lower the wtf blob, and wed get multiple smaller gangs hunting or guarding gates and pipes away from the main battle.

has downsides of course, just some ideas i had.

Mr Bodacious
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.10.23 03:03:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Kruel
Honestly I wouldn't mind it if webbers only affected MWDs. It would give ABs a place in pvp combat. Though if it was an AF only change I'd be fine with that too.

AFs do need a buff. No point in flying one over a cruiser ATM.


Pfft. A cruiser isnt NEARLY as stylish as a Jaguar ;P

hellsknights
Element 115.
Posted - 2007.10.23 03:22:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Grimpak


"immune to propulsion interdiction modules (webs)."

that's my take tho.

suddenly Afrigs would go from sucky **** to KAPLAW!.


Very interesting, i would enjoy this.

Stuart Price
Caldari
FLA5HY RED
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2007.10.23 03:26:00 - [38]
 

It would also put more people in stealth bombers since they frag af's in a few volleys.

But I like the idea of my blarpy being unwebbable, that would really ruin most bc/bs pilots days.

Futher Bezluden
Minmatar
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.23 07:11:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 23/10/2007 07:16:44
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=619681

When looking over the assault frigs, one notices that few bear any resemblance to the T1 Frig use to make them and often pull bonuses out of thin air.

T1 base used for AF:
Rifter: 5% damage and 7.5% tracking
Merlin: 5% shield resistance and 10% optimal
Punisher: 10% SET cap use and 5% armor resists
Incursus: 10% falloff and 5% damage

Wolf and Jag: Rifter damage bonus applied, tracking bonus removed.
Wolf gets Falloff bonus and second damage bonus
Jag has Optimal bonus and second damage bonus

Harpy and Hawk: Neither has the 5% shield resistance of the Merlin. Both have an optimal bonus -Hawk has missile velocity. Hawk has what is typically seen on Minmatar ships -shield boost amount.

Retribution and Vengeance: Again, 1 turret ship, 1 missile ship like the Harpy/Hawk. Only Vengeance has the punisher armor resist bonus while the Retribution has only the cap redux for small energy turrets. Retribution has cap recharge bonus although it is a "missile spammer"

Enyo and Ishkur: Neither has the Falloff bonus of the Incursus, but decided to swap out for an optimal bonus.

Reworking the AF's with their T1 origins applied as best as possible and getting rid of the "resist to armor and shields" in favor of HAC level resistances of their race, we get the following:

Combat AF and Light AF. Each has a role bonus. Combat AF's gain a 25% ROF bonus. Light AF's gain a -25% signature resolution.

Combat AF: Role Bonus: +25% ROF
WOLF:
FRIG Bonus: 5% damage, 7.5% tracking
AF Bonus: 5% velocity, 10% falloff

HARPY:
FRIG Bonus: 5% shield resists, 10% optimal
AF Bonus: 10% optimal, 5% damage

Retribution:
FRIG Bonus: 10% SET cap use, 5% armor resists
AF Bonus: 5% damage, 10% optimal range

Enyo:
FRIG Bonus: 10% falloff, 5% damage
AF Bonus: 7.5% tracking, -5% mwd cap use per level

Light AF: Role Bonus -25% signature radius
JAG:
FRIG Bonus: 5% damage and 7.5% tracking
AF Bonus: 10% falloff, 7.5% shield boost amount per level

HAWK:
FRIG Bonus: 5% shield resists, 10% missile velocity
AF Bonus: 5% missile damage, 10% missile flight time

Vengeance:
FRIG Bonus: 5% armor resists, 5% rocket damage
AF Bonus: 5% rocket flight time, 5% rocket velocity

Ishkur: 35m drone bay
FRIG Bonus: 10% drone control range, 5% drone Damage
AF Bonus: 5% armor repair amount, 5% drone HP per level

=
I tried to convert the T1 ship bonuses as close as possible for ships like the hawk, vengeance, and ishkur whose T1 counterpart isn't a missile flinger or drone monger.

In all honesty, the vengeance is more like the inquisitor than punisher, the hawk closer to a kestrel or condor than merlin and Ishkur like the little imicus that could than an incursus.
CCP, what would it hurt to buff up the kestrel or condor model for the hawk, inquisitor for vengeance, and imicus for the ishkur?

-edit: K, ishkur does look all wrong with control range.
Ishkur: 35m drone bay
FRIG Bonus: 10% optimal, 10% drone Damage/HP
AF Bonus: 5% armor repair amount, -5% mwd cap use per level

Aerin Cloudfayr
the evil ones
Posted - 2007.10.23 08:08:00 - [40]
 

I'm inclined towards the web-immunity idea, or webs-only-affect-MWDs. Seriously, webs kill any kind of small ships' chances of survival vs larger ships waaay too much. Leave the little big guys alone, and O-SNAP MWD speed-freaks with webs instead YARRRR!!

Skaaj
Universal Star
HELM Alliance
Posted - 2007.10.23 09:08:00 - [41]
 

How about making the role bonus to AF's like command ships but smaller, make a line of Command/support modules for Assault frigates, with smaller bonuses, or bonuses only to small ships (frigs, afrigs, inties and destroyers... maybe cov ops and interdictors too??)

then they could be usefull in gangs of small ships and certain area's of fleet battle (tacklers/anti tacklers)

good idea? bad idea?

Dadoes
Posted - 2007.10.23 14:10:00 - [42]
 

Fixing the mass & 4th bonus would be a great start and would make me a very happy chappy Smile

I guess the reason these have been neglected for so long maybe due to the confusion as to what role these should actually fit.. ..the web idea is interesting, but imho the true role should be less tackler more assault.. ..so it should be all about more tank/damage, maybe put the sig radius the same as inties and make them able to field a nice resistance tank..

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2007.11.16 21:47:00 - [43]
 

Retribution; -1 high, +1 midslot
Vengeance: +25% missile range

And lose the mass

Marcus Druallis
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2007.11.16 22:16:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Xilimyth Derlin
I like the idea of being immune to the web thing.... but what if you make em something interesting simultaneously. Something like: "Due to system hardening, equipping propulsion jamming modules nullifies this effect".

An assault frig without webs/scrams cannot be webbed or scrammed. The moment you try to equip one, that Role bonus disappears. Gives the AF a role without jumping into another.


This

D3stroyer
Posted - 2007.11.18 11:38:00 - [45]
 

Just make them the new hacking / archeology spec ships Laughing

With the release of the new ships, trying to fix them will be even harder!

R.I.P AF's


Brucette
Posted - 2007.11.18 14:55:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Retribution; -1 high, +1 midslot

Tackling is for interceptors. Leave those slots alone.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2007.11.18 15:11:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 18/11/2007 16:12:02
Originally by: Brucette
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Retribution; -1 high, +1 midslot

Tackling is for interceptors. Leave those slots alone.


No thanks, every race getting a new nice potential semi solo AF and amarr gets stuck with 1? No, retri needs a 2nd mid or they should beef its damage by 25%.

edit: oh and by your logic lets just remove all except 1 mid off all AFs that dont shield tank. Shield tanks only get 2mids. How about that? Leave tackling to inties? No i didnt think youd like that either...

Erim Solfara
Amarr
inFluX.
Posted - 2007.11.18 15:12:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Brucette
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Retribution; -1 high, +1 midslot

Tackling is for interceptors. Leave those slots alone.


/signed

Originally by: Kruel
Honestly I wouldn't mind it if webbers only affected MWDs. It would give ABs a place in pvp combat. Though if it was an AF only change I'd be fine with that too.

AFs do need a buff. No point in flying one over a cruiser ATM.


interesting idea that I quite like

What about making one of the tiers a Fleet command AF? With the ability to fit a few ganglinks, maybe with some special low fitting-cost frigate ones, to promote frigate and small ship gangs? The AFs that aren't the primary damage dealers, Vengeance, Ishkur, Hawk, Jag could all gain the ability to fit one of two of these mods, (RoF/damage, speed/agility, sig radius reduction, that sort of thing?).

Maybe have these ganglinks only apply to frigates and perhaps destroyers?

Tonya Kitty
Posted - 2007.11.18 17:00:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Isyel
Just change that damned resist bonus every other t2 ship has in by default to something useful.

God yes, AFs are the only T2 ship that are like that, why they have remained so is just insane.

Skeiron
Wretched Industries
New Eden Research.
Posted - 2007.11.18 17:17:00 - [50]
 

At the moment there is really no point in buying an AF: They're expensive, detroyers out-gank it and nearly everything out-tanks it.

+75% to 100% damage role bonus
A tanking bonus.

This will more or less turn AFs into frig-sized ships with Destroyer-like damage and a bit more tank for a fair(er) price.

Wolf: 4 turretslots (+75% dmg) and a bit tankage
Thrasher: 7 turretslots and basically no tank

Wolf baseprice ISK 3,295,668.00 (according to item database)
Thrasher baseprice ISK 750,000.00

Will still die to webs but well, you can't have everything.

Horus Isis
Posted - 2007.11.18 17:35:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Erim Solfara


interesting idea that I quite like

What about making one of the tiers a Fleet command AF? With the ability to fit a few ganglinks, maybe with some special low fitting-cost frigate ones, to promote frigate and small ship gangs? The AFs that aren't the primary damage dealers, Vengeance, Ishkur, Hawk, Jag could all gain the ability to fit one of two of these mods, (RoF/damage, speed/agility, sig radius reduction, that sort of thing?).

Maybe have these ganglinks only apply to frigates and perhaps destroyers?


/sign

i love frig gangs, and always will, making AF's mini commands makes a bit of sense to me

Satura
WEPRA CORP
Posted - 2007.11.18 18:50:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Satura on 19/11/2007 01:56:43
Think i read several posts that CCP will look into AF problem, but i think it will be after the release of Trinity.

Brea Lafail
Posted - 2007.11.18 19:01:00 - [53]
 

I'd be tempted to say give them more tanking slots, I mean, theyre assault ships. I hear assault vehicle and I think armour plates 3 feet thick with guns welded on everywhere they could get an anchor. Ofc, more pawer.CPU would need to come with it.

Also, real 4th bonus. Rep amout, real resist bonus, whatev.

Rixsta
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2007.11.18 19:21:00 - [54]
 

It doesn't make a difference now with the Hyena due to come into play... But i would have liked to have seen AF given extended web range, makes them more viable as anti nano ships and anti support ships, especially in that most nano ships wouldn't be able to one volley an AF, the same way they can to a interceptor getting into web range. With the resistance bonus would of been a great nano tackler and anti dictor / inty ship for fleets.

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2007.11.18 19:30:00 - [55]
 

I like the idea of frigate/desty specific gang modules though for an af to fit multiple may be a waste of a good opportunity to get a sweet bonus like web resistance.

Ofcourse if the tank af has the ability to field one I would be all for it. Just remember that only one gang member gives out gang bonuses so what do you do with all the other af's.

That's why I always prefered the idea of a real t2 destroyer based on the current desties keep the sniper bonuses, have a rof bonus that negates the -25rof, add a racial tanking bonus and allow the fitting of 3 of those frig gang mods that sounded so good.

A t2 sniping dessie gang leader with a group of af's sounds cool.



AB + web resist would be the real I WIN. But the t2 resists must be native

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.11.18 20:49:00 - [56]
 

Just repeating here what I've said many, many times (including on SHC, oh, a week ago).

People say that AF have no role. This is false. Their role is pretty clear (or at least what it should be), it's just that they do them not very well. What a assault frigate is, or should be, is a light HAC. In other words, they should do excellent damage for a ship of their size, and have tanks that are also excellent for a ship of their size. They are supposed to put weapons on target and tank the return damage. This is what a HAC does (generally). The problem with them is that unlike a HAC they are frigates, and therefore can't take huge damage. They are, after all, frigates. If you drew up a design document on these ships it should list the following:

1. Excellent firepower for a frigate sized vessel
2. Good speed, but not outstanding speed
3. Excellent tank for a frigate

Now, a key to this is a understanding of how 2 and 3 should interrelate. The speed of the ship must still be relatively high, because no matter what kind of tank that can be fitted, it still is a frigate. Any assault frigate will have frigate slots on it, therefore the ability to improve it's tank is limited because of the number of available slots to do so. Unlike the most closely comparable vessel, a HAC, you can't fit multiple resist modules or shield extenders or whatever. Therefore to succeed, an assault frigate must be a carefully constructed blend of both speed and tank; neither one can be too high or too low. The problem currently is that the tank is about right IMO but the speed is not even close. Additionally, the firepower is deficient as well in many cases so they don't do objective 1 well either. What makes this all worse is that they're missing a ship bonus, which just contributes to the problem the ship has. I'll demonstrate some with some numbers here about the problems with point 2 (the following use a 1mn microwarpdrive II and a character with nav 5 acceleration control 4, and no speed mods):

Caldari: Harpy - 1341m/s Hawk - 1351m/s Merlin - 1750m/s
Amarr: Vengeance - 1423m/s Retribution - 1512m/s Punisher - 1950m/s
Gallente: Enyo - 1512m/s Iskhur - 1550m/s Incursus - 2695m/s
Minmatar: Wolf - 1938m/s Jaguar - 2193m/s Rifter - 2875m/s

In addition, this data is also informative:

Thrasher - 1785m/s
Typhoon - 1425m/s (100mn MWD II, no speed mods)

The above is interesting data to say the least. You can see that assault frigates are universally slower than their base hulls, in some cases, quite significantly. Second, that a thrasher - a ship of a larger hull size - is faster than 3/4 of all assault frigates. Third - and possibly most interesting in this area - is that a typhoon, a battleship, is faster than 3 of them and only about 75 to 100m/s slower than 3 more. This shows that one of the big problems with these ships is they are too damn slow do perform their given role; if a stock BS can outrun a frigate, then the frigate is not that useful.

Bluntly, they need a speed boost. While no one advocates that they should be interceptors, they need to do about 2.5km/sec w/ a MWD, minimum, and the fast ones (minmatar) should prob do about 3km/sec. This gives them the ability to manuver and work as skirmish weapons, plus have the speed to try to combat small frigates such as interceptors which with the inty changes that are coming, will be even more important.

The next issue they have is the firepower issue, combined with the lack of the bonus they have. Some ships have crappy slot layout as well which doesn't help them either (retribution), or bonuses that make little sense when you look at the ship (wolf, jaguar). I'll address that issue below with the following ideas:


Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.11.18 20:50:00 - [57]
 

Hawk: -1 highslot, +1 midslot, - 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per AF level, + 10% bonus to rocket and missile explosion velocity per frigate level and 5% bonus to light missile and rocket damage per AF level.

Reason: Firepower on this ship is too low. 5th highslot pretty much is useless, adding to mid increases tank on slowest AF. Explosion velocity assists in killing small fast targets. Shield boost amount is a minmatar bonus.

Harpy: + 5% bonus to shield resists per frigate level.

Reason: Mini moa.

Vengeance: Move 5% bonus to armor resistances per AF level to frigate level. + 10% bonus to rocket velocity per AF level.

Reason: Gives a bit of standoff range to rocket setup, which is the limiting factor on rockets.

Retribution: -1 highslot, +1 midslot. + 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per AF level.

Reason: Removes mostly useless high slot and gives limited tackle capability to ship. Adds additional damage. Gankalicious.

Enyo: + 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per AF level.

Reason: Gives a high damage turret ship to gallente for killing interceptors with rails, which will be needed if you're going to have 28km orbiting interceptors.

Ishkur: Replace 10% optimal range bonus per AF level with 10% falloff per frigate level. + 10% drone speed per AF level.

Reason: Gallente are the short range hybrid race, and caldari the long range hybrid race. In addition, as anyone who has used drones previously can tell you, they're not long range weapons. Drone speed gives the ability to actually catch that 8km/sec crow and make an effective attack. In addition, if you need to GTFO in this ship it means the drones get back to the bay quick, which is needed frequently in skirmish attacks.

Wolf: Replace 10% falloff per AF level with 10% optimal range. + 7.5% bonus to tracking per frigate level.

Reason: Wolf is used as the arty boat in practice, and arty has miserable tracking up close. This addresses this issue.

Jaguar: Replace 10% optimal per AF level with 10% falloff range. + 7.5% bonus to tracking per frigate level.

Reason: Jag is used as the autocannon platform; additional tracking needed to ensure that targets can be hit at the speeds the fastest of AF can reach


Do that, and you'll pretty much have some useful ships again.

Stuart Price
Caldari
FLA5HY RED
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2007.11.18 23:15:00 - [58]
 

I feel inclined to point out at this juncture that af's are not completely useless atm. My harpy tears through other frigs like a chainsaw at all the ranges that matter.

If it was web immune then most cruisers and battlecruisers would have a very real reason to fear my appearance in local since 600m/s (AB), unwebbable, with frigate sig radius at close range will out-track most medium/large guns with ease.

If they got a mass/size reduction I'd be even happier since I'd go faster still and take less damage from missiles.

There is the danger they'd become heavy tacklers but that's not necessarily bad considering the interdictor-> heavy interdictor progression.

A crazy idea that just popped into my head is how about making them immune to e-war (damps, ECM etc but not scrams obviously)? That makes them true anti-support ships specialising in taking out hostile interceptors and recons alike. This would very likely be insanely overpowered in practice though.

Alko Shan
Posted - 2007.11.18 23:38:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Alko Shan on 18/11/2007 23:38:41
Originally by: Brucette
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Retribution; -1 high, +1 midslot

Tackling is for interceptors. Leave those slots alone.


I have to agree with Brucette - I really like the Retribution slot layout as it is. It's the only laser AF in the game with a utility slot - would be sad to see it lose that. :-(

Tackling is handy too of course but there are lots of other AF's that can do it, and only one Retribution.

Brea Lafail
Posted - 2007.11.18 23:44:00 - [60]
 

I can think of lots of stuff to put in that extra mid other than tackle. Cap battery anyone (or recharger if that don't fit)?


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