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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2007.09.27 19:59:00 - [31]
 

I think there's too big speed difference between conventional ships vs. "nano"-ships. Also some extreme fittings go so fast that you basically can't hit them with missiles or turrets. Also long range tacklers are reserved for only 2 races.

Sure there's probably some kind of solutions when you think i.e. 1 vs 1 okay, but I don't think we should always present an option "get a counter-counter-counter ship".

At least poor me doesn't want to fit mwd on every ship.

Rolling Eyes

Apolloe
Posted - 2007.09.27 20:04:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Apolloe on 27/09/2007 20:05:38
Quote:
Dont talk crap. They'll orbit you at more than 20km, so webbers dont help. Its verry clear nano still is the i-win button. And yes, if you put 300mill in a ship and alot more in snakes, you should be verry, verry good, not ******* immortal.

Nerf plz


Send your interceptor after him. That's why it's called an Interceptor...because it intercepts things - get it? Or your tacklers, because they can tackle, that's why they're called tacklers. Derrrrr........

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2007.09.27 20:18:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn

At least poor me doesn't want to fit mwd on every ship.



Then that is a conscious decision you make. You can't complain that someone didn't make that decision.

Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2007.09.27 20:34:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn

At least poor me doesn't want to fit mwd on every ship.



Then that is a conscious decision you make. You can't complain that someone didn't make that decision.


Yes you can. You complain because it detracts from the game in that you are forced into participating in a FOTM to counter the current FOTM. That's the whole point. If he wasn't interested in balance, he would just fly it as well.

arbalesttom
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.27 20:34:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/09/2007 20:35:25
Edited by: arbalesttom on 27/09/2007 20:34:55
Originally by: Apolloe
Edited by: Apolloe on 27/09/2007 20:05:38
Quote:
Dont talk crap. They'll orbit you at more than 20km, so webbers dont help. Its verry clear nano still is the i-win button. And yes, if you put 300mill in a ship and alot more in snakes, you should be verry, verry good, not ******* immortal.

Nerf plz


Send your interceptor after him. That's why it's called an Interceptor...because it intercepts things - get it? Or your tacklers, because they can tackle, that's why they're called tacklers. Derrrrr........


Yeah sure, if you grab an interceptor and go after a nishtar, your dead meat when he releases his t2 warriors. If your going after a nano-huginn/whatever, he webs you, your dead. Get my point? Its impossible to counter nanoships. And every time if you fight nano with nano, its a nasty fight because the rest of the gang aint there in time to save your sorry little ass.

edit: typo's

Apolloe
Posted - 2007.09.27 21:49:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Apolloe on 27/09/2007 21:51:30
Edited by: Apolloe on 27/09/2007 21:49:30
Quote:
Yeah sure, if you grab an interceptor and go after a nishtar, your dead meat when he releases his t2 warriors. If your going after a nano-huginn/whatever, he webs you, your dead. Get my point? Its impossible to counter nanoships. And every time if you fight nano with nano, its a nasty fight because the rest of the gang aint there in time to save your sorry little ass.



Hold it! HOOOOLD IIIT!!! "Its impossible to counter nanoships." Yet you JUST said that when you go after the ship he WEBS you and you're dead. Boom! There's your counter to nanoships RIGHT there! Webbers!!! You said so yourself! Woohoo I'm getting through to someone!!

Edit: Also the Warrior IIs like YOU JUST SAID, are also very good for attacking nano ships!

arbalesttom
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.27 22:36:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Apolloe
Edited by: Apolloe on 27/09/2007 21:51:30
Edited by: Apolloe on 27/09/2007 21:49:30
Quote:
Yeah sure, if you grab an interceptor and go after a nishtar, your dead meat when he releases his t2 warriors. If your going after a nano-huginn/whatever, he webs you, your dead. Get my point? Its impossible to counter nanoships. And every time if you fight nano with nano, its a nasty fight because the rest of the gang aint there in time to save your sorry little ass.



Hold it! HOOOOLD IIIT!!! "Its impossible to counter nanoships." Yet you JUST said that when you go after the ship he WEBS you and you're dead. Boom! There's your counter to nanoships RIGHT there! Webbers!!! You said so yourself! Woohoo I'm getting through to someone!!

Edit: Also the Warrior IIs like YOU JUST SAID, are also very good for attacking nano ships!


are you ******ED? who are you going to web if the nanoships orbit at 20? NO ONE

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2007.09.27 22:55:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: arbalesttom

Yeah sure, if you grab an interceptor and go after a nishtar, your dead meat when he releases his t2 warriors.



Your interceptor pilots suck.

Originally by: arbalesttom

If your going after a nano-huginn/whatever, he webs you, your dead.



You web him back with a nano-huggin/rapier. Or just just damp him with a celestis/gallente recon. Interestingly, you're now saying that the nano-huggin is a counter to your nano-ships, and yet it magically doesn't work against the opposing nano-ships?


Originally by: arbalesttom

Get my point? Its impossible to counter nanoships.



Wait, you just said they counter your nano-ships (tacklers) with huggins. I don't get what changed from the last sentence...

Originally by: arbalesttom

And every time if you fight nano with nano, its a nasty fight because the rest of the gang aint there in time to save your sorry little ass.



Bad gang setup?

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2007.09.27 22:57:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/09/2007 23:01:20
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/09/2007 23:00:57
Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn

At least poor me doesn't want to fit mwd on every ship.



Then that is a conscious decision you make. You can't complain that someone didn't make that decision.


Yes you can. You complain because it detracts from the game in that you are forced into participating in a FOTM to counter the current FOTM. That's the whole point. If he wasn't interested in balance, he would just fly it as well.


Anyone not fitting a MWD to a ship (other then a T1 frig, I find it sometimes nice to fly Rifters with ABs) is obviously asking for it. It's like going 'oooh, I don't want to fit short-range guns' and then complain about problems in short-range fights!

Also, I don't get people who refuse to use EWAR to counter range. Yes, classic setup can't really do much (except maybe drive them off), but nanos are how you counter the classic (MWD, scram, web, F1-F8) kind of setups. Nanoships die because they get tackled rather frequently, it just appears you suck at it.

Edit: I think he's just trolling.

Apolloe
Posted - 2007.09.27 23:01:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Apolloe on 27/09/2007 23:04:26
Edited by: Apolloe on 27/09/2007 23:04:11
Yeah that arbalesttom guy is ****ed in the head. He's *****ing that there's no counter to the enemy nano ships, yet, the enemy is countering HIS nano ships. Wtf dude? Are you like, not reading what you are typing?? Lol this is too funnny.

Also, if that NanoIshtar webs your tackler, well guess what, if he's in web range, you most likely are TOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

MITSUK0
Posted - 2007.09.27 23:21:00 - [41]
 

Posting in a nerf them! buff me! thread.

Nikolas Wade
Posted - 2007.09.27 23:33:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: arbalesttom
I thought ccp nerfed nano? How come im seeing ishtars, huginns (and vagas, but hey, there supposed to do that aint it?) owning complete 0.0 with there nano setups? How come im still seeing (rare, i admit it) nanophoons running around? Aint it time to swing another time with the nerfbat?

Bring it onTwisted Evil


Adapt or die.

Kamikaze Loco
NorCorp Security
Southern Cross Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.27 23:59:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: arbalesttom

are you ******ED? who are you going to web if the nanoships orbit at 20? NO ONE


Go back to pvp in your caracal and stop the whine pls. You just make yourself look like an idiot on the forum. Evil or Very Mad

arbalesttom
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.28 00:19:00 - [44]
 

Plz, only reply if you know what im talking about.... otherwise just stfu ok?

Nikolas Wade
Posted - 2007.09.28 00:21:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Kamikaze Loco
Originally by: arbalesttom

are you ******ED? who are you going to web if the nanoships orbit at 20? NO ONE


Go back to pvp in your caracal and stop the whine pls. You just make yourself look like an idiot on the forum. Evil or Very Mad


/Signed!!!!!!!11

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2007.09.28 00:29:00 - [46]
 

The real problem is player mentality I guess. Some like to fit their ships with overpowered fotms, others don't. In the case of nanos, their only really valid counter is nanoing yourself (or the Huginn on the remote chance that one of them fks up). People who enjoy the nano go roaming in enemy heartland, searching for conventional prey that they can gank. The populace in this target area is usually ratters and miners. Occasionally some of them are actually militant enough to want to fight, but usually noone has the skills or equipment for a nanogang, nor any Huginns/Rapiers, so it is not worth it to even try. The best that can be accomplished is driving them off with EW, which is about as much fun as staying docked.
Those pilots that DO have the counters are usually out PvPing in enemy territory themselves. And I can't help perceiving this as imbalance. I would like to have at least a small chance of killing nanostuff with conventional fittings. I don't mind adapting (aka. dock/ss+cloak and afk a bit whenever local goes red), but I really would prefer having a way of fighting back without my own nano or 34km web.

ButterButt
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.28 00:56:00 - [47]
 

Yes, nano-ships are out of wack. Nanogank squads will run if they see a gang of huginns/rapiers, curses or several BS's -they can fit hvy neutralizers- on scan. They just won't engage hard targets if they can help it. Bubble the gate, if you don't have a lot of huginns/rapiers/curses to pin them down, they just mwd straight to the gate and go.

huginn/rapier/curses/BS w/Neuts are effective counters, but how often is your group running around in 10 huginns. Nanogank Squads are usually fit up with damps galore to rotate themselves out of lock range and back in when called and taking serious damage.

So you can counter them by always roaming around in huginns with 2 webs, 24k warp dis II, and 2 sensor boosters to avoid the damps, but then you're dead meat with no tank at all.

Vaga, it is supposed to be the ship most likely to be piloted by a ninja speed crackhead pushing 5-6km per second. Ishtards seem to the be main gripe, but hopefully with "BANDWIDTH" they'll only be fielding medium drones Twisted Evil. Hopefully Damps will be heavily nerfed as well.

Idea
Until then, add an ODJ and you use more cap per mwd cycle.

hellsknights
Element 115.
Posted - 2007.09.28 04:31:00 - [48]
 

I understood why the nerfed nano ships the first time, it was not normal to
reach such speeds in BS's or insta warp for that matter.

For the cry babies saying give it another nerf, let me guess you all
fly slow ships with incredible DPS.

Wow so a Gallente Hac goes 3500m/s a Vaga goes 5800m/s.....big deal.

When you fit for nano you take away almost all your potential DPS, thats seems like
a fair trade off.

For example: Deimos can easily reach 700 DPS, nano it up and you DPS will go to about 350
with drones, seems logical no?

You guys talk about how "uber" Huggin's/rapier'e are should we nerf them as well???

Quit the damn complaining and play the game.

Octaviun
Amarr
Posted - 2007.09.28 04:43:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Octaviun on 28/09/2007 04:43:54
Neutrilzers , Rapiers/Huginns , Heat , Suiside Intys , Sabres ( reach 5k with ease.) Damps, ECM, Gangs, Blobs, Titan doomsdays, sentry drones ( sometimes)

All counters to nanoships stop whining , nanoships have already been nerfed so many times , istab nerf, tripple mwds, MWD rigs removed, speed mods stacking nerfed.


Edit : Nanogangs on the otherhand that requires brains to counter.

Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2007.09.28 06:30:00 - [50]
 

Nano ships have low dps and no tank. Put them in a web and their freakin dead. Keep them from going transversal. Pay attention and manuever your ship by hand. They can be fought and killed. The problem people have is that nano-gangs are 10 man strong and like to attack single targets then warp off before reenforcements can arrive. This will always happen be the attacker has control of the engagement. Even with non-nano hacs and recons a well lead gang can enter a system, kill a bs and get out before a gang can be put together.
Removing speed as an option in combat is not only pointless it also removes a layer of realism from the game. In the real world fast things have a distinct advantage (they can chose their battles and retreats), but they cant fight for prolonged periods of time. We see nano-gangs alot in our neck of the woods and they can be attacked successfully. Heres a suggestion: don't go afk. watch your local and alliance chats. get your ratting bs (which cant fight ANY type of pvp fitted ship) safe. stop whining.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2007.09.28 08:26:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
The populace in this target area is usually ratters and miners. Occasionally some of them are actually militant enough to want to fight, but usually noone has the skills or equipment for a nanogang, nor any Huginns/Rapiers, so it is not worth it to even try. The best that can be accomplished is driving them off with EW, which is about as much fun as staying docked.
Those pilots that DO have the counters are usually out PvPing in enemy territory themselves. And I can't help perceiving this as imbalance.


... wait, you're saying they pick their fights in your territory (and aim for soft targets) and should still lose?

Well, that's kindof stupid to ask, isn't it. If you are not going to provide security for your miners/ratters, well, what do you want?

Whenever someone has superior numbers, superior maneuverability and superior tactics (locally), he will win. It's the whole point of guerilla warfare - and guerilla warfare shouldn't be easy to stop, especially when you send your PvP-ers elsewhere.

Rossarian
Posted - 2007.09.28 09:02:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
The populace in this target area is usually ratters and miners. Occasionally some of them are actually militant enough to want to fight, but usually noone has the skills or equipment for a nanogang, nor any Huginns/Rapiers, so it is not worth it to even try. The best that can be accomplished is driving them off with EW, which is about as much fun as staying docked.
Those pilots that DO have the counters are usually out PvPing in enemy territory themselves. And I can't help perceiving this as imbalance.


... wait, you're saying they pick their fights in your territory (and aim for soft targets) and should still lose?

Well, that's kindof stupid to ask, isn't it. If you are not going to provide security for your miners/ratters, well, what do you want?

Whenever someone has superior numbers, superior maneuverability and superior tactics (locally), he will win. It's the whole point of guerilla warfare - and guerilla warfare shouldn't be easy to stop, especially when you send your PvP-ers elsewhere.


No I am saying that it should be possible for the ratters and miners to be able to fit up PVP ships of their own and go fight the nano, without having to resort to nano themselves or having minmatar cruiser 5. As it is, the best thing to do with a bunch of conventional ships vs. even a small nanogang is not trying to fight back but sitting them out. And that simply strikes me as wrong.

Another solution I can think of is a T1 ship with the hug/raps web range bonus.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2007.09.28 09:03:00 - [53]
 

Goddamn settings reset, that guy above is me of course.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2007.09.28 09:53:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Rossarian
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
The populace in this target area is usually ratters and miners. Occasionally some of them are actually militant enough to want to fight, but usually noone has the skills or equipment for a nanogang, nor any Huginns/Rapiers, so it is not worth it to even try. The best that can be accomplished is driving them off with EW, which is about as much fun as staying docked.
Those pilots that DO have the counters are usually out PvPing in enemy territory themselves. And I can't help perceiving this as imbalance.


... wait, you're saying they pick their fights in your territory (and aim for soft targets) and should still lose?

Well, that's kindof stupid to ask, isn't it. If you are not going to provide security for your miners/ratters, well, what do you want?

Whenever someone has superior numbers, superior maneuverability and superior tactics (locally), he will win. It's the whole point of guerilla warfare - and guerilla warfare shouldn't be easy to stop, especially when you send your PvP-ers elsewhere.


No I am saying that it should be possible for the ratters and miners to be able to fit up PVP ships of their own and go fight the nano, without having to resort to nano themselves or having minmatar cruiser 5. As it is, the best thing to do with a bunch of conventional ships vs. even a small nanogang is not trying to fight back but sitting them out. And that simply strikes me as wrong.

Another solution I can think of is a T1 ship with the hug/raps web range bonus.


If you have local superiority in numbers (assuming your miners/ratters are competent at PvP), you need a fast gang (face it, MWD is a part of any sensible PvP fit) with a number of tacklers, EWAR and medium-range firing guns (think Amarr w pulse or T2 medium ACs, both can hit up to 20km). Any minmatar/gallente recons in gang are a big plus (web range, scramble range).

Any huggins (or, better yet, uncloaking Rapiers Twisted Evil, it's the one thing I genuinely fear when I accidentaly see it in system) in their gangs will give your tacklers a lot of grief, so you really need to disable the buggers, since it is the nano-ship counter.

Which you should try to use, as well - delegating a couple of your PvP pilots who fly them to miner/ratter protection would really improve their chances...

However, considering they're experienced PvPers fighting miners/ratters, well, it's going to be hard. Very Happy

Losing just one properly-fit nanoship is about 200M down (or maybe even more for certain ship types), though, which is a big hit. Conventional ships are much cheaper to lose and don't go down so easy when they make a mistake.

d026
temp holding
Posted - 2007.09.28 10:11:00 - [55]
 

the problems with the current nano*** are:

1. speeds are to high for the server & client to handle. if you see your enemy at 500m the instance you activate your webs he will be at 50k due to sync issues/delay. this happens way to often and is extremely anoying. eve is not a fps game!

2. usualy you need at least 2 ships per nanoship to catch it effectively. rapier/huginn & arazu/lachesis. imho this shows how nanofits ar a little bit to ueber. if you only bring a huggin they warp out imediately (inertia on those ships let them almost instawarp).

3. only being able to catch a standard nanofit with 2 extremely dedicated ships is plain wrong in the first place. especially considerig how common speedfits are still today.

Rudy Metallo
Veto.
Posted - 2007.09.28 10:46:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Rudy Metallo on 28/09/2007 10:51:42
CCP didn't want to COMPLETELY nerf nanos.

They just didnt want zeroh zipping around at 11km/s in a battleship.

Originally by: d026
the problems with the current nano*** are:

1. speeds are to high for the server & client to handle. if you see your enemy at 500m the instance you activate your webs he will be at 50k due to sync issues/delay. this happens way to often and is extremely anoying. eve is not a fps game!

2. usualy you need at least 2 ships per nanoship to catch it effectively. rapier/huginn & arazu/lachesis. imho this shows how nanofits ar a little bit to ueber. if you only bring a huggin they warp out imediately (inertia on those ships let them almost instawarp).

3. only being able to catch a standard nanofit with 2 extremely dedicated ships is plain wrong in the first place. especially considerig how common speedfits are still today.



1. I havent noticed this

2. Yes, true enough, but the point is he's not killing you at the same time, as they used to be.

If you really wanna **** nanos over, then get a 12km DG web. Its a measly 5m or less, and in a gang it's worth it (although solo it's definatly not).

arbalesttom
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.28 11:07:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Rudy Metallo
Edited by: Rudy Metallo on 28/09/2007 10:51:42
CCP didn't want to COMPLETELY nerf nanos.

They just didnt want zeroh zipping around at 11km/s in a battleship.

Originally by: d026
the problems with the current nano*** are:

1. speeds are to high for the server & client to handle. if you see your enemy at 500m the instance you activate your webs he will be at 50k due to sync issues/delay. this happens way to often and is extremely anoying. eve is not a fps game!

2. usualy you need at least 2 ships per nanoship to catch it effectively. rapier/huginn & arazu/lachesis. imho this shows how nanofits ar a little bit to ueber. if you only bring a huggin they warp out imediately (inertia on those ships let them almost instawarp).

3. only being able to catch a standard nanofit with 2 extremely dedicated ships is plain wrong in the first place. especially considerig how common speedfits are still today.



1. I havent noticed this

2. Yes, true enough, but the point is he's not killing you at the same time, as they used to be.

If you really wanna **** nanos over, then get a 12km DG web. Its a measly 5m or less, and in a gang it's worth it (although solo it's definatly not).


Sure, you buy it for me?

Drek Grapper
Minmatar
Posted - 2007.09.28 11:17:00 - [58]
 

I have an idea...

Let's have a button on the UI called 'Neutralize Target Ship'. You don't need weapons or any special fits for this to work. All you do is is target a ship and press this button.

When you press this button BAHM!! The target ship is destroyed. You don't have to think or use special ships or tactics...you just hit this button. Nano ship easily killed. No whining no moaning....no fuss. Easy.

Because that's what we all want isn't it? An easy game. Rolling EyesNo thought, no brain power no hassle no fuss.

Press button = dead ship. Job done. Wink

Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
Posted - 2007.09.28 11:39:00 - [59]
 

I've allready said it, and I'll say it again, just to make sure you whiners get it eventually some time.

Nano-Ships are not overpowered. They just have the ability to run away, if things go not in their favor.

A single Vaga is not able to kill a properly fitted Tier 2 Battlecruiser or Battleship.
A single Ishtar is not able to do that as well, as you can kill their Drones, if they keep out of WebRange not able to scoop and redeploy in an instance.

And if you're talking about gangs, then well... 10 ships will allways kill your solo ratting Battleship, even if they're not fitted for Speed.

If you want to have everything totally balanced, then go playing TicTacToe...
...but I'm sure you'll be the ones who cries: "Nerf the CENTERSQUARE *whaaaaaa*".

Zana Kito
Posted - 2007.09.28 11:42:00 - [60]
 

People want to pvp with minimal risk to themselves, as such any tactic that enables this will be popular.

My only issue with this is that as you fly faster than 4km/s, lag have such a huge influence. Maybe not for those in europe, but for players from other parts of it the world, 500-700ms latency is common. That's seeing your target's movement 0.5-0.7 seconds later, then having to respond, taking another 0.5 to 0.7s for the server to register.

That's 1 to 1.4 seconds delayed response. With people flying 8km/s, that's a huge gap.

Not to mention flying faster than missiles and light drones is ludicrous in the first place.. Rolling Eyes


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