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cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 03:00:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: cinderbrood on 21/09/2007 06:06:25
Edited by: cinderbrood on 21/09/2007 00:23:41
Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 21:24:17
Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 19:48:05
Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 19:12:39
Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 19:12:09
Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 18:58:41
Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 05:31:29
Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 04:33:26

[b]EDIT: Now looking for another 200 million ( See Shar's Response on page two. )
Ok.. where to start.

About me: Im a 0.0 pilot living out in providence my main rats and mines ice for isk to pvp with. I have 3 alts

1. Industry focused with perfect build skills and also invention skills. ( Note: Does not have perfect refine skills but that wont be needed for what i want to do. )
2. Trade alt - As the name suggest this alt is entirely based on trade skills. can fly a hauler to but thats about it. Ive been using excess Isk left over to purchase loot in 0.0 ship it to empire and sell for a stupid mark up ( Enough to fund my mains Hac habit..)
3. Hauler / Ratter alt - Fly's t2 haulers and is a skill book away from a freighter.
4. My main - Does a bit of everything. Never leaves 0.0

Why do i want investment.

I think I have found a few ways where i can make a pretty sum of Isk but lack the starting capital to do it as most of my Isk goes towards pvp and gtc's to keep the accounts running. mostly to do with trade and invention.

Now for one of the trade plans i also need a freighter ( ideally funding with public invested isk and payed back with interest otherwise ill be cutting into my profit margin to pay a 3rd party to freighter my goods around for me.)

How much are we looking at.

2 Billion to be payed back after 2 months with 25% intrest. Again this is an ideal figure but in reality could work out to alot less depending on intrest of the public. min investment (50 million.)

Total invested : 2,000,000,000 * 1.25 = 2,500,000 to be payed back after 2 months.

No shares will be given out.
All Investors will be recorded both on a seperate website and a eve forum topic as well as a few offline places on my computer. There will be a mailing list set up so i can keep in contact with investors.

Why should u trust me.

To be quite honest I cant answer that. I know myself I am not going to walk with 2 billion but from the outside world i have no known history. Ive never undergone public funding before. And no ones ever heard of me.

So in all honesty theres nothing i can say that would convince u one way or not. Its your risk.

Thanks for listning ill be taking any question any one might have now :)

Edited a typo

Shadarle
Posted - 2007.09.20 03:07:00 - [2]
 

I've noticed a lot of small IPO's springing up recently. All for 2-5 billion or so... all with no reputation at all.

Perhaps a lot of new people are just getting into the IPO spirit and want to try their hand at it.

Or Perhaps scammers have realized that if they shoot for small amounts of money they can easily snag a few billion ISK and pay for the next 1-2 years of EVE for free.

I have no clue if this is legit or not... it sure sounds fairly legit... but it's so hard to invest in something when you have absolutely no way to know if someone is trustworthy or not.

cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 03:10:00 - [3]
 

Agreed. I can see why people worry to be honest if i was reading this would i have concerns... Hell yes.

But we have all got to start somewhere and i have no way to gain a reputation without a start.
i could just ask a few close friends and gain investment that way. that still neglects my lack of public reputation front in not getting me anywhere closer. Thus why I'm asking the public.

Kitex
Blacktag Test Labs
Posted - 2007.09.20 04:32:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: cinderbrood
Ive been using excess Isk left over to purchase loot in 0.0 ship it to empire and sell for a stupid mark up


Does this work? I'd think doing the opposite would make more sense.

A few things make me worried about investing. Elaborating on these points may make me feel better:

  1. The freighter: High-sec only, or will it be living in 0.0 with you? I don't want to help pay for a freighter outside of highsec.

  2. Invention: It sounds like a key part of your business plan revolves around invention. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but invention comes with an inherant chance of failure. An unlucky string of failures can easily wipe out an entire investment of 2b. I don't want to invest in you, and then turn my investment over to CCP's random number generator.

  3. Shares, payout schedule, and Rate of return: I like shares. Though they obviously aren't a guarantee of payment, they make me feel better. Any chance of one of your alts forming a holding corp with which to distribute shares? Regarding the payout schedule, I don't like the single lump repayment with interest after 3 months. I'd rather interest be payed incrementally, with a repayment of the purchase price after 3 months. As for rate of return, 25% total over 3 months does not entice me to invest in you as an unknown. It is not a terribly competitive interest rate for a high risk venture.


I just noticed that you state you will repay investment + interest in 3 months in one paragraph, and then you have it as 2 months in the next paragraph. Which one is the typo?

Thanks for answering muh questions.

cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 04:39:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 04:43:48
remove i hate this forum system it didnt post right

Shadarle
Posted - 2007.09.20 04:41:00 - [6]
 

For some reason I didn't think about that 25% either. You're right Kitex, it is a very low payout for an unknown player to offer. 25% a month is large. 25% over 3 months is tiny. You can get that by investing with a larger more well known corp.

cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 04:43:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 04:48:37
Quote:
Does this work? I'd think doing the opposite would make more sense.


People sell named loot for alot lower prices via buy orders than u would imagine. Some mods up to 10% of empire price ie a 90% profit.

Quote:
The freighter: High-sec only, or will it be living in 0.0 with you? I don't want to help pay for a freighter outside of highsec.

This would be high sec only
Quote:
Invention: It sounds like a key part of your business plan revolves around invention. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but invention comes with an inherant chance of failure. An unlucky string of failures can easily wipe out an entire investment of 2b. I don't want to invest in you, and then turn my investment over to CCP's random number generator.

Invention wouldnt be a key part more so just a supplimentary part if all else was going well and there was excess isk to invest. if profit was in such a state i had more to invest after paying back repayments.
Quote:
hares, payout schedule, and Rate of return: I like shares. Though they obviously aren't a guarantee of payment, they make me feel better. Any chance of one of your alts forming a holding corp with which to distribute shares? Regarding the payout schedule, I don't like the single lump repayment with interest after 3 months. I'd rather interest be payed incrementally, with a repayment of the purchase price after 3 months. As for rate of return, 25% total over 3 months does not entice me to invest in you as an unknown. It is not a terribly competitive interest rate for a high risk venture.

ther agreements could be worked out including the use of an alt corp for shares. and weekly or even monthly repayments. it was originally decided this way to make my life simpler ( a quick excel page takes a few moments at best just to contain investment info. but doing it this way could work just as well.) As for your rate of return question. What would yo suggest be a competitive return im always open to suggestions.


cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 04:46:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 04:55:49
Originally by: Shadarle
For some reason I didn't think about that 25% either. You're right Kitex, it is a very low payout for an unknown player to offer. 25% a month is large. 25% over 3 months is tiny. You can get that by investing with a larger more well known corp.

Your right it probally is. I just had that as a starter to judge intrest. I would probally pay out alot higher but i didnt want to make those claims till im 100% certain it would happen. im certain i could replace all isk with over 50% returns anyway. But making such statments isnt good if the S**t hits the fan and all goes down hill reguardless of me being able to fund it out of my other income anyway. the idea behind the invesment is i dont have to fund it out of my pvp fund. and thus can use this isk purely to make profit.

Shadarle
Posted - 2007.09.20 04:58:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: cinderbrood
Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 04:55:49
Originally by: Shadarle
For some reason I didn't think about that 25% either. You're right Kitex, it is a very low payout for an unknown player to offer. 25% a month is large. 25% over 3 months is tiny. You can get that by investing with a larger more well known corp.

Your right it probally is. I just had that as a starter to judge intrest. I would probally pay out alot higher but i didnt want to make those claims till im 100% certain it would happen. im certain i could replace all isk with over 50% returns anyway. But making such statments isnt good if the S**t hits the fan and all goes down hill reguardless of me being able to fund it out of my other income anyway. the idea behind the invesment is i dont have to fund it out of my pvp fund. and thus can use this isk purely to make profit.


I think the question then is what level of profit are you going to keep for yourself. What is your cut?

Say we invest 2 billion and you make 100% profit. I'm quite sure you don't give out the 100% to us. Initially it sounded like you'd pay a flat 25% unless you didn't make that much. The question is if you make 4 times that do you pay 25% still, or 50% or all 100%?

cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 05:02:00 - [10]
 

say you invest 2 bill and i make 100% profit and hand that all off to the investors for helping me out as a starter. Im still up a freighter and no longer in debt along with having a small amount of trust to open a second ipo to keep running on a long term basis . Im looking at this not as a profit making investment of my time. altho i will still be up a freighter. but as a trust building excercise. and as an introduction to the world of public investment for me.

cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 05:04:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Shadarle


I think the question then is what level of profit are you going to keep for yourself. What is your cut?



again i will take no cut but am willing to offer 100% of profit made on the 2 billion over the time period specified ( currently 2 months ) along with gaining public trust that being the main thing im after.

Dr Slurm
General Commodities
Posted - 2007.09.20 05:43:00 - [12]
 

Whenever I judge something in life I look for the incentive. Your incentive is not matching the work involved.

The fact is you could get yourself out of debt and a freighter in much less then two months. Especially if you are able to ROI 25%.

Note how I haven't slapped my typical red scam stamp on this thread yet, but I'm not saying I would invest either.

I see these threads a lot. People asking for funding to buy a freighter and get some trade going. Well quit being lazy and raise it yourself. It isn't hard.

cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 05:52:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 05:54:39
Originally by: Dr Slurm


I see these threads a lot. People asking for funding to buy a freighter and get some trade going. Well quit being lazy and raise it yourself. It isn't hard.


Now as mentioned earlier. i could stop pvping for a month and stop loosing ships and fund it that way and still get a freighter.. but then how much public trust have i gained.. thats right 0.

I can understand people worrying this may be a scam i probally would be myself if i was looking at investing. after all all i have is my word against anyone else's.

My plan is to run this investment get myself a freighter and some experience with public funding and have some fun doing so. To then once all this is payed off and im happy i can still turn a profit start looking for larger amounrs of funding. Alas i think reaching my current amount asked isnt going to be easy with no background so asking for more at this stage would be stupid.

This is about a profit im sacrificing that for the chance to gain bigger amounts of funding later on if im lucky. And that in my books is worth the effort.

EDIT: i should point out its 7am here and ive been awake for 24 hours and spent most of it in excel things are getting a little exhuasting for me so expect some semi confused responses as the day passes ^^ Insomnia sucks >.>

Dr Slurm
General Commodities
Posted - 2007.09.20 06:18:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: cinderbrood

This is about a profit im sacrificing that for the chance to gain bigger amounts of funding later on if im lucky. And that in my books is worth the effort.


This all comes down to incentive. I feel your proposal is an unbalanced equation and I'm not saying you are the "One".

Your first IPO is lopsided in that you take the short end of the stick. This implies you will somehow benefit from it in the future. I see you say you want to gain market trust, but to what avail? Why is market trust so valuable to you that you will short yourself in your first small IPO? How will you make up for this in the future?

This is what leads me to believe you have something to hide.

On that note, I've noticed most market trust is gained through doing business with other people on a reliable basis. At least that seems to be what most good references that pop up on this forum are.

Now personally applying those same rules to myself I don't know that I would worthy for an IPO. What I would have riding on it is this character, namely a 34m skill point character that I've invested a lot of time and technically RL cash(nearly 3 years of subscription) into. I'm not interested in sullying the name of my elder character. Other then that I've had one IPO before that was free to anyone who contributed. I did end up paying a small amount of isk out on each share that was distributed one time, but that was it. Otherwise I have not had any business dealings with any other players directly.

So really what I'm saying is I don't know if I'm being unfair to you as a new market entrepreneur or don't like your proposal just because my gut says no.

cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 06:26:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 06:27:31
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Originally by: cinderbrood

This is about a profit im sacrificing that for the chance to gain bigger amounts of funding later on if im lucky. And that in my books is worth the effort.


Your first IPO is lopsided in that you take the short end of the stick. This implies you will somehow benefit from it in the future. I see you say you want to gain market trust, but to what avail? Why is market trust so valuable to you that you will short yourself in your first small IPO? How will you make up for this in the future?
My long term aim with this is by taking a loss in profits on this introduction ipo and gaining a freighter. the trust gained may garner the ability to aquire more funding later on in time. more capital to me later on = more profits in my wallet. i can currently fund what i want to do in eve with my main anf fund my accounts with gtc's.

This is an extra project ive always had my eye on but not ventured into due to lack of confidence in my isk making abilities. Its only recently ive grown to realise i actually do a better job at it than first thought. thus now is a good time to start. also rev 3 is due up later on and i would like the chance to have some more funding at around that time or not to far after it.

Originally by: Dr Slurm

So really what I'm saying is I don't know if I'm being unfair to you as a new market entrepreneur or don't like your proposal just because my gut says no.

As for being unfair No your not. Your being sensible and cautious as any investor should be. If your guts says no.. Well i cant help there only offer my side of the story :) should u choose to invest or not your still helping. be providing me with feed back and questions.

Also thanks for the link to your ipo. I may be intrested in aquiring some of that data reguardless.

Dr Slurm
General Commodities
Posted - 2007.09.20 07:34:00 - [16]
 

The data is a bit stale now it's from last year. The possibility of a yearly digest occurred to me.

Good luck with your IPO.

I think the best thing you have going for you is you haven't reacted like the other kids who got shot down. You've responded in a civil manor which is more then can be said about the others that have tried similar IPOs. It usually results in the OP deleting the post and trying to remove any reference of it.

Shadarle
Posted - 2007.09.20 07:34:00 - [17]
 

I'm in the same boat as Slurm is. My gut is saying this is a bad idea to invest in... but yet there is something else telling me that it isn't. I feel like I'm being a bit harsh considering I personally would have no credentials for starting my own IPO either. I mean, I have plenty of isk... but if for some reason I wanted to start an IPO there would be no real reason for people to trust me. Sure, I've been posting here for close to a year now... but that doesn't mean I'm trustworthy. And if I ever needed to issue an IPO it would be for some crazy amount of money that most people wouldn't trust even well known members of this forum with.

I think this is why a bit of me trusts you. Because I have been thinking about running a small IPO based around a certain business... not because I need the outside financing, but because I want to build up trust and a business rep. So I can understand sacrificing profits for a reputation. But at the same time I know I personally wouldn't have any reason to scam a few billion ISK... the same cannot be said for you. So I'm really torn. I'm either going to throw most of or the whole 2 billion at you or not a penny... I just can't decide yet.

cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 07:46:00 - [18]
 

Thanks for the responses, Even if this investment never gets off the ground i've already learnt in the aspect of what kind of questions i can expect in the future.

Also Dr Slurm. Your right i haven't acted like the most and hit the water running at the sight of any doubht i see no reason to. Like i Said if this all fails and no one invests a thing. Im still up experience so its worth it for that aspect alone.

Thanks for all the responses.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2007.09.20 13:11:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 20/09/2007 16:57:21
I would feel more comfortable about investing in your IPO if you could give a slightly more detailed description of how you intend to provide returns.

edit: IBTE!

(In Before The EBANK)

cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 15:29:00 - [20]
 

ill breifly recover what it is ill be doing.

1. Small Volume 0.0 to Empire trades - Buy loot for low prices ship to empire and sell.
2. Large Volume Empire trading. - Minerals trade good's anything i can see will turn a profit. ( ive aleady spotted a few profit making runs but dont want to post and give them away)
3. As a suppliment if all goes well ill be sinking some of the isk into invention. in a hope to return profits there. altho this will be mostly funded out of my own wallet. it is possible that some of the ipo funds will be used. profit will be split accordingly.

Hope that clears a few things up. i wish i could give more details but due to the nature of trading id be doomed to fail already if i did so

Ricdic
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.09.20 15:54:00 - [21]
 

Do you have any assets to help secure your business? ie named/faction items recieved from 0.0 and the likes? Anything really. If so, pop me an evemail in game and we can talk about a possible sponsorship within the EBANK for the entire cost of your operation.

cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 16:00:00 - [22]
 

Unfortunatly all my assets get converted to pvp ships or used as mods on my ratting ships.

And i tend to die.. Alot. So vary rarely own enough assets to cover even half the cost of this ipo while still remaining functional in what im doing.
But i still thank you for your offer.

cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 16:47:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 16:53:51
Id also like to thank everyone for keeping there comments and reply's civil . I was expecting at least one Alt to start screaming scam and flaming. So again thanks for the civil responses and lets try and keep it this way :D Who knows we could break an eve record and have an entire thread without a flame...

Shadarle
Posted - 2007.09.20 17:07:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: cinderbrood
And i tend to die.. Alot.


While very honest, this is very scary to see when thinking about investing in someone.

cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 17:15:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: cinderbrood on 20/09/2007 17:16:59
Thats the thing. Cinderbroods my pvp character and likes to chuck hacs at people to save allience mates in trouble. last one was lost helping free an allience carrier.

at no point will any of the invesment's isk ever touch his wallet. it will remain in the alt corp who i've now created wallet. on my alt Tivern Maniva.

i will post shortly to confirm that i do own the alt.

None of the characters involved in this ipo will be participating in pvp at least voluntarily. And only one of them will ever venture into Low-sec / 0.0 I will also use my main as a scout in a covops for any of these runs as well as the use of a blockade runner to minmamise the risk.

But yes i can understand the concerns :)

EDIT: Cant even spell my alts name >.>

Tivern Maniva
Tivern Maniva Corp
Posted - 2007.09.20 17:16:00 - [26]
 

Just Confirming this is cinderbroods alt and the one who will be handling 99% of all transactions. The other 1 % being done by my freighter alt who wont be named in public only to investors.

Pang Grohl
Posted - 2007.09.20 17:26:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: cinderbrood
And i tend to die.. Alot.


While very honest, this is very scary to see when thinking about investing in someone.


I think that it depends on what he's doing when he dies. It's not like he's asking for funds to buy a faction fit CNR to mission in, while making this admission.

cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 17:27:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 20/09/2007 16:57:21
I would feel more comfortable about investing in your IPO if you could give a slightly more detailed description of how you intend to provide returns.



I completely forgot to answer this question and its a very valid one.

Returns: As ive already mentioned im willing to sacrifice the full profit for the duration of this ipo.
After trading has commenced and all invesments taken. i dont feel it will be long till the ipo is worth 2bill+ again in isk and assets. ( the first month is planned. In an ideal world. ) Anything above the 2 billion mark will be payed out to all investors on a monthly or weekly basis. ( Currently monthly is planned as getting back over the two bill mark in a week might not make it so dont want to promise it weekly altho that will be offered to the investors as a majority vote my vote not counting. once it has been reached. )

After the Duration of the ipo i will buy back all shares at the initial price ie all 2 billions worth for 2 billion isk.

Any one wanting to continue investing for a non 100% rate of the profits ( ie ill be taking a cut for myself after this point is free to and terms will be discussed at the time. ) i hope this helps clear up any issues on that front but again any questions feel free to ask.

cinderbrood
Caldari
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
Posted - 2007.09.20 17:29:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Pang Grohl
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: cinderbrood
And i tend to die.. Alot.


While very honest, this is very scary to see when thinking about investing in someone.


I think that it depends on what he's doing when he dies. It's not like he's asking for funds to buy a faction fit CNR to mission in, while making this admission.

exactly. im not after any funding at all for combat related issues. Nor will any be used on it.
It was purely stated as a fact towards the Ebank offer earlier on in the topic.

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2007.09.20 18:04:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: cinderbrood
But we have all got to start somewhere and i have no way to gain a reputation without a start. i could just ask a few close friends and gain investment that way. that still neglects my lack of public reputation front in not getting me anywhere closer. Thus why I'm asking the public.

There are several logical fallacies in this position. Firstly being: Why do you have to run an ipo to start your reputation?

Most of us here, who are considered ipo "reliables", did not earn our reputations running ipo's... we only solidified them. Too many people are grabbing for the brass ring without bothering to get on the actual merry-go-round to start with. I would say, go get those private investors!!!

Those will be people who will spread good word about you enabling you to reach further and further. Each of the successful ipo's you see usually start with testimonials from previous private investors. Preferably people of good stature themselves but not always so.

Hate to be harsh but I'd have to mark your ipo with "scam" as my recomendation. No one worth a damn in Eve has no reputation of any kind. You may not have a reknowned financial public history but you have either have some history, of any kind, or you have nothing.

And should get nothing.


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