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CCP Wrangler

Posted - 2007.09.14 15:30:00 - [1]
 

If you haven't seen it yet, head over to our Dev Blog and read War is Divine, a Dev Blog on Factional Warfare by Ginger. As you can see there we'd like to have your thoughts and ideas on Factional Warfare in this thread, so post away!

4rc4ng3L
Gallente
C R Y O
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:54:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: 4rc4ng3L on 14/09/2007 16:04:17


I think its a great idea all round. Overtime alliance and corp wars become boring and static for the most part and i think its a good idea to be able to detach yourself from alliance politics and go get involved within the game story and stucture... in the end it will only lead to greater immersion and give people a reason to fly their own races ships etc etc

And given that it's all optional it should(in theory) take little or no flak from the forum w****s about zOMG nooozzz EvE is turning PvE!!!

My little input however, seeing as its all optional im hoping that people who put their time into this will get something back, whether its something simple like LP for the Beta Agent Store( yes, beta!! Laughing ) or faction ships.
Maybe faction ships, custom faction ships where you get to pick from a selection of 2 - 3 colour schemes and have our character name put in the ship BIO for instance, like you have with current faction ships, simply replace the fictional character race or name to "Produced for -insert pilot name- for his/her exceptional bravery in defending the nation yap yap yap.
So as to make it slightly personal, so it gives people an incentive to take part and gives the people who do take part a reward that actually means something.

Just take your time and do it right, it also has the potential to be one messy disaster!

G.Luck

Tharrn
Amarr
Epitoth Fleet Yards
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:07:00 - [3]
 

If you want to make it the awesome version then please, please, please make it so that someone who has ****ed off a faction enough can no longer dock at their stations. Nothing turns me off as much as supposed enemies of Amarr being based out of the Emperor Family Station in Amarr...

4rc4ng3L
Gallente
C R Y O
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:08:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Tharrn
If you want to make it the awesome version then please, please, please make it so that someone who has ****ed off a faction enough can no longer dock at their stations. Nothing turns me off as much as supposed enemies of Amarr being based out of the Emperor Family Station in Amarr...



I agree with this

CCP Ginger

Posted - 2007.09.14 16:09:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Tharrn
If you want to make it the awesome version then please, please, please make it so that someone who has ****ed off a faction enough can no longer dock at their stations. Nothing turns me off as much as supposed enemies of Amarr being based out of the Emperor Family Station in Amarr...



This has been a hot topic of discussion here. There are alot of problems with denying docking rights to someone and the fact that the empires seem to have allowed each other to set up stations in their sovereign space is somewhat of an issue. But yes, its being discussed.

4rc4ng3L
Gallente
C R Y O
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:17:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: 4rc4ng3L on 14/09/2007 16:18:04
Originally by: CCP Ginger
Originally by: Tharrn
If you want to make it the awesome version then please, please, please make it so that someone who has ****ed off a faction enough can no longer dock at their stations. Nothing turns me off as much as supposed enemies of Amarr being based out of the Emperor Family Station in Amarr...



This has been a hot topic of discussion here. There are alot of problems with denying docking rights to someone and the fact that the empires seem to have allowed each other to set up stations in their sovereign space is somewhat of an issue. But yes, its being discussed.


Maybe it would be possible to have a "level of commitment". Where as you agree to enter the factional warfare you pick just exactly how much you want to get involved. The basic level being that you simply do a few missions can go fight with your fellow race to lay the smack down to the other, and get rewarded based on that.
The you could choose to go in deep, "covert level", which would be for the full time RP guys and people who want to go down this road. This would have much greater risks and also much greater rewards. Risks being that you are simply banned from entering enemy faction systems and docking at they're station but in return you get more dangerous assignments and get increased standing and reward from yours.

But what happens when people want to leave this Deep level of RP? they simply choose an option from their agent to be removed from covert duty and be pushed back to the basic level like most others, however at a serious loss of standings. If you didnt have that serious loss of standing then you could have people going in to get the nice juicy reward then leaving. Also, once you leave the covert level you cant enter it again until your agent offers you a place, which would be based on a certain number of dayts/weeks, or based on wthe number of things you do for your faction.

Tharrn
Amarr
Epitoth Fleet Yards
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:17:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Tharrn on 14/09/2007 16:18:37
If it is a technical problem to completely deny docking - what about docking fees that get increasingly horrendous the lower the standing?

Edit: P.S. I wouldn't mind blowing up Freedom Extension Stations in the Empire if Concord and the Empire turned a blind eye :P


Arabian Goggle
Baby Eating Robots
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:22:00 - [8]
 

Please make factional warfare reasonably accessible to the solo player. Small gangs are fun but you canít argue with the community: Many of the most popular eve videos are solo pvp action. Many of the most popular ships are ships that are versatile enough to engage in solo pvp. Of course you also have the multitudes of solo or semi-solo (read main and alt) players who run missions in empire.

I am not saying factional warfare should be more mission grinding. But I do think it should be broad or flexible enough to allow players in different situations to enjoy it.

On a side note, to enhance the flexibility and usage of the system it would be good if players had some reasonable way to overcome negative factional standings. I like to think that if I run missions for Amarr, that one day if I decide to run missions for Minmatar I can somehow repair my negative standings.




CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2007.09.14 16:24:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Tharrn
Edited by: Tharrn on 14/09/2007 16:18:37
If it is a technical problem to completely deny docking - what about docking fees that get increasingly horrendous the lower the standing?

Edit: P.S. I wouldn't mind blowing up Freedom Extension Stations in the Empire if Concord and the Empire turned a blind eye :P




It's less a technical issue and more a gameplay/design one - what do we do about Amarr stations in Minmatar lowsec space, for example? Do we let Amarr FW players dock there? Do we stop Minmatar FW players docking there? What about the ones in hisec? What about Caldari stations in Minmatar space - do we let Amarr FW players dock there? And so on and so forth... It's something we're still considering including, but it's still not clear whether or not we can come up with a consistent, coherent way of restricting docking rights.

CCP Ginger

Posted - 2007.09.14 16:27:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Arabian Goggle
Please make factional warfare reasonably accessible to the solo player. Small gangs are fun but you canít argue with the community: Many of the most popular eve videos are solo pvp action. Many of the most popular ships are ships that are versatile enough to engage in solo pvp. Of course you also have the multitudes of solo or semi-solo (read main and alt) players who run missions in empire.



There will be nothing to stop you solo PvP'ing in Factional Warfare, its going to be a freeform system. You will certainly be able to join it as a solo player and go around shooting people in the face as a solo player, you can even attempt to do the objectives as a solo player.

However, others will be trying to stop you by.. well.. shooting you in the face.

Arabian Goggle
Baby Eating Robots
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:28:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: CCP Ginger
Originally by: Arabian Goggle
Please make factional warfare reasonably accessible to the solo player. Small gangs are fun but you canít argue with the community: Many of the most popular eve videos are solo pvp action. Many of the most popular ships are ships that are versatile enough to engage in solo pvp. Of course you also have the multitudes of solo or semi-solo (read main and alt) players who run missions in empire.



There will be nothing to stop you solo PvP'ing in Factional Warfare, its going to be a freeform system. You will certainly be able to join it as a solo player and go around shooting people in the face as a solo player, you can even attempt to do the objectives as a solo player.

However, others will be trying to stop you by.. well.. shooting you in the face.



Excellent reply Ginger. Thanks. I'm excited to shoot some ppl in the face Twisted Evil

Tharrn
Amarr
Epitoth Fleet Yards
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:31:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale


It's less a technical issue and more a gameplay/design one - what do we do about Amarr stations in Minmatar lowsec space, for example? Do we let Amarr FW players dock there? Do we stop Minmatar FW players docking there? What about the ones in hisec? What about Caldari stations in Minmatar space - do we let Amarr FW players dock there? And so on and so forth... It's something we're still considering including, but it's still not clear whether or not we can come up with a consistent, coherent way of restricting docking rights.


Those players who don't have a low factional standing won't be affected. Those with a high faction standing can dock at stations of their faction regardless of where they are - if they can get there, as it involves physically moving through enemy space and dealing with both enemy players and the Navy if you have a low standing... The blog sounds like the navies are beefed up, so that should be a challenge in itself.

The next logical step would be to remove stations on enemy territory stepwise via factional warfare.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:40:00 - [13]
 

"Opposing Faction navies will take a sudden dislike to you fighting for their enemies. The pansies who currently take you on will most likely get fired and replaced with people who know how to shoot.
There will be no "PvP lite"."

Will there be gradual levels of hostility between, say, a casual FW player who want ot try it out without seeing half of the high-sec closed to him, and a crazy hardcore genocidal berzerk FW player?

CCP Ginger

Posted - 2007.09.14 16:47:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
"Opposing Faction navies will take a sudden dislike to you fighting for their enemies. The pansies who currently take you on will most likely get fired and replaced with people who know how to shoot.
There will be no "PvP lite"."

Will there be gradual levels of hostility between, say, a casual FW player who want ot try it out without seeing half of the high-sec closed to him, and a crazy hardcore genocidal berzerk FW player?


Not in the current design, no. We are still discussing what kind of penalties towards enemy factions joining up will entail, but you should be able to join up, try it out for a short while and then leave without taking too much of a hit (note I said this is still under revision), however longer term fighters will find that the enemy faction progressively hates their guys alot more.

But, this system is a hot one and will be revised before release.

Bruno Bonner
Gallente
Lutin Group
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:57:00 - [15]
 

In support to Tharrn's comments, but also supporting current game mechanics and existing stations i would like to point the following:

Under the Youl covention, the creation of CONCORD and the Cease-Fire agreements between all the four core Empires i would have guessed the following were signed on treaties:

No empire or sovereign nation that abides to CONCORD rules can deny docking to any other pilot, not even criminals. However there is freedom of liberty on the services fees applied to said individuals.

Gate and Station Sentrys will only attack Criminals and Outlaws defined by CONCORD rules, individuals who are not welcomed in empires will not be taken care of by CONCORD fleets, however their Navies are free to deal with said tresspassers if they see fit.

So you see, increasing the cost of operating from an opposing faction's station should tripple so at least they comply to CONCORD agreements but make life a hell of a lot more difficult to said organizations. Today we also have the random navy spawn when someone with faction standings -5.0 or lower enter the enemy sovereign space. That also difficults moving freely.

The standings mechanics is already in place, just make use of it properly.

Bruno

Acacia Everto
INTERNET HARBLRAGE
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:57:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Acacia Everto on 14/09/2007 16:57:30
Will it be similar to the tournament in that you pick a faction to fight for, and gain standing/LP towards them? And also, will factional warfare include just PvE, or both PvE and PvP in that you fight against those who say sponsored the Amarr Empire which is at war with the Minmatar whom you sponsored? If so, do you gain standing/LP for killing people who sponsored your opposing faction?

Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:04:00 - [17]
 

Sounds good Ill try to update my post with more in-depth stuff this weekend when I get a chance. But if youre going to imlement this, there needs to be some more ways of cancelling out really bad existing standing because alot of longtime, bored highsec dwellers and .0 soldiers--the two groups I see being most interested in this--have built up really godawful standings with lots of factions, and no real way to raise it since less than -2.0 faction means NO MISSIONS FOR YOO. This would be particularly problematic if said standings start doing stuff with docking rights.

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2007.09.14 17:05:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Acacia Everto
Edited by: Acacia Everto on 14/09/2007 16:57:30
Will it be similar to the tournament in that you pick a faction to fight for, and gain standing/LP towards them? And also, will factional warfare include just PvE, or both PvE and PvP in that you fight against those who say sponsored the Amarr Empire which is at war with the Minmatar whom you sponsored? If so, do you gain standing/LP for killing people who sponsored your opposing faction?


The current design is strongly PvP-centric - there are PvE elements, but the focus is on small gangs of fighters running around beating the snot out of each other for king and country (or equivalent).

Tempest Kane
Amarr
Reikoku
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:09:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Tempest Kane on 14/09/2007 17:10:59
Will factional low sec stations be conqurable by a corporation or alliance who decides to support/fight for an opposed faction of said station owning faction?

If so i see a strong use and incentive for 0.0 groups to take part and secure low-sec hub points for logistical reasons + cyno nets to empire useing the pos/portaling system.

I think it is important to maintain an Empire area were new players can grow, however i feel eve has evolved to a point were we should start to receede the borders of empire and allow the domination of low sec by the major powers, it opens up a new area of space for smaller corporations to take and operate in without perhaps the mass benefit of 0.0 but with the security of a home they can invest in building up.

Its time for the sandbox to expand inwards.

Rainhailer
Gallente
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:12:00 - [20]
 

Would there be any chance of getting factions (such as Mordus and the Jovians) to take part, and if they get enough player support, maybe carve out sovereignty for themselves in some other faction's space?

Also, will there be any possibility of 0.0 pirate factions getting involved and taking space from the empire factions?

I'm asking because I remember reading in a previous devblog that system security status could be altered, and I think I saw that borders could change.

Plus I'd love to fight for the Jovians or Mordus, pwn some Caldaris =)

Rainhailer
Gallente
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:13:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Tempest Kane

I think it is important to maintain an Empire area were new players can grow, however i feel eve has evolved to a point were we should start to receede the borders of empire and allow the domination of low sec by the major powers, it opens up a new area of space for smaller corporations to take and operate in without perhaps the mass benefit of 0.0 but with the security of a home they can invest in building up.




Plus it'd populate low-sec!

Si Raven
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:17:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale

It's less a technical issue and more a gameplay/design one - what do we do about Amarr stations in Minmatar lowsec space, for example? Do we let Amarr FW players dock there? Do we stop Minmatar FW players docking there? What about the ones in hisec? What about Caldari stations in Minmatar space - do we let Amarr FW players dock there? And so on and so forth... It's something we're still considering including, but it's still not clear whether or not we can come up with a consistent, coherent way of restricting docking rights.


It sounds like you havenít fully thought through all the long tem implications yet so itís good that FWís been delayed. If an enemy faction is allowing "privateers" to operate out of its stations, this is going to cause friction with the host faction. Either theyíre going to ignore, destroy or capture this wretched hive of scum and villainy! Eventually, this will escalate into an all out ďhotĒ war. Are you planning for 2-3 years down the road?

What would happen if you made these stations conquerable, like the some of the stations in 0.0 used to be like? (With multiple stations in a system in Empire, you couldnít use POSs.) FW participants could group together and try to capture or release the station for their Faction or ally.

However, only the host faction or the current faction would gain control, not player corps or alliances. Once under the host factionís control, any agents can be considered captured or escaped. Enemies of the state will not be able to dock until they or their allies recapture it. This would also release any agents to be used again!

Are there any level 4 quality 18 Amarr agents in Minmatar space? Twisted Evil

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2007.09.14 17:22:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Tempest Kane
Edited by: Tempest Kane on 14/09/2007 17:10:59
Will factional low sec stations be conqurable by a corporation or alliance who decides to support/fight for an opposed faction of said station owning faction?

If so i see a strong use and incentive for 0.0 groups to take part and secure low-sec hub points for logistical reasons + cyno nets to empire useing the pos/portaling system.

I think it is important to maintain an Empire area were new players can grow, however i feel eve has evolved to a point were we should start to receede the borders of empire and allow the domination of low sec by the major powers, it opens up a new area of space for smaller corporations to take and operate in without perhaps the mass benefit of 0.0 but with the security of a home they can invest in building up.

Its time for the sandbox to expand inwards.



The initial release is definitely not intended as a tool to give 0.0 Alliances more power/influence in lowsec. Maybe at some point in the future Alliances will be able to attack the Empires directly, but for now this isn't part of the game plan.

Originally by: Rainhailer
Would there be any chance of getting factions (such as Mordus and the Jovians) to take part, and if they get enough player support, maybe carve out sovereignty for themselves in some other faction's space?

Also, will there be any possibility of 0.0 pirate factions getting involved and taking space from the empire factions?

I'm asking because I remember reading in a previous devblog that system security status could be altered, and I think I saw that borders could change.

Plus I'd love to fight for the Jovians or Mordus, pwn some Caldaris =)


The plan is definitely to bring at least some 0.0 factions into the fold in future, although this won't be part of the initial release. Jove, though? Unlikely.

Adhar Khorin
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:22:00 - [24]
 

Has there been any consideration toward allowing a FW pilot to "call in support" from the faction navy to defend sovereign space?

The amount of support (ie, NPC naval vessels) that you'd be able to call in would depend on your standing, and could also cost standing and/or LP to (literally) call in the favor. It would also introduce one hell of an element of surprise when you're defending your own turf. Invaders see small gang, engage said gang, and then NPC navy shows up to the party.


Helison
Gallente
Times of Ancar
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:24:00 - [25]
 

Some random thoughts:

*) About stations: It has to be possible that NPC-stations are taken over by other NPC-factions. In addition to this Iīd like to see Interbus implemented first. Interbus could move all your goods (and your corp goods including worthy BPOs) to a friendly station, if the station changes the owner.

*) While activly fighting for a faction, it should be NOT possible to use the hostile stations. But after end of the fighting it should be possible to dock again within 2-4 weeks.

*) Standings: It should be possible to regain all your lost standings and fight for the opposing faction, but it should be quite difficult to really change the faction. But it should be "quite" easy to regain as much standing to be able to travel again in the regions of the former enemy.

*) Factional warfare has to be interesting also for veterans!

*) It should NOT be rewarding to bring 300+ players to win an objective. This could also be achieved more easily if you provide many but small objectives instead of single, bigger ones.

*) Logistical ops are a must. "Hey this viator is supplying the enemy with ammunition! Shoot it!"


Tsumik
Minmatar
Ivy League
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:36:00 - [26]
 

I agree I would really like to see more use of factional ships (which I think I read before somewhere they'll be fixed). And I really think there should be something that sort of pushes people to use ships that coralate to their respective races. Ie. fighting for the Amarr should pushs you or perhaps not penalize you from flying other race ships.

I also think besides the small gang battles, the parts that really get me about historacal games is large scale battles happening and being a small part of that battle. And nothing so grand as "if I don't complete this objective the rest of the fleet won't be able to do their parts" but more like "if I can take out this outpost battery the fleet can have a slight edge fighting in this system" I think alot of games make the play so super heroic that they alone determine the way the battle goes. It would be fun if there was big push battles like into a system and you were put into various fronts/objectives by some sort of factional fleet commander. And the faster you complete your small objective the faster someone else in the same battle can complete their part.

It would be also cool to be part of "covert/black ops" type missions where the faction lets you borrow special modules or ships for just that mission and then they take it back afterwards. This would potentially give some more coolness to factional warfare by allowing you to use ships/modules that are only in factional warfare.

Otherwise good job guys look forward to it!

Jezala
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:54:00 - [27]
 

So what happens when we have a situation where the Amarr empire is kicking the snot out of the Minmitar Republic and defeating them at every engagement? How is the progress of the war manifested in the universe? What happens when one faction "wins" over the others?

I guess what I'm really asking is: does the outcomes of the factional warfare fights result in meaningful change of the EVE universe or is it just some prearranged fights that impacts your faction standing?

TJ17
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:57:00 - [28]
 

it would be nice to see factional warfare more then just missions/cosmos as in other empires can take over others station like gallante taking caldari stations and so on. it should be based on how many people do the factional warefare in order for station change or something other then a boring pos siege deal you should also expand it to high sec aswell since it is faction vs faction and not just a battle for low sec.

but im looking too see how this turns out but anyway take ur time and do it right.

Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:58:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 14/09/2007 18:38:55
Pretty please avoid making great good versus evil war (amarr+caldari vs minmatar+gallente).
Let it have more political complexity, with NPC corporation-level conflicts inside factions, occasional conflicts with "friendly" faction corps and so on and so on. In Eve background, NPC corps always had shareholders and competitors, lets use this information so we can choose to fight in wars more like in Cyberpunk then in Middlearth :) Naturally, people working for navy/fleet or goverment corps, and all other - time to time, would still take part in the great national war.

Edited for more;
Reward for flying the "right" faction ships would be really nice. Nothing to affect ship parameters, my Gallente ship will not start to hate me for flying for the Emperor. Buf FW NPCs may do so. For example they can give me less FW rewards if I used non-Amarr ship in fight - "We had to edit your godless gallentish ship from our propaganda holoreels, what would this do to our peoples morale if they've seen our pilots prefer foreign ships over our superior and blessed technology? We do not like that.".


Idea for industrialists;
Allow industrialists to get FW patriotism points or whatevers by donating ships and equipment for the country. Somehow make them exposed to enemy pvp attack at least once on the way (maybe let them donate ships in some plex that can be attacked etc).
This way industrial characters can get whatever bonuses FW gives if they can manage to get protection etc.

Durente Galaica
Amarr
Fortunate Few
Posted - 2007.09.14 18:05:00 - [30]
 

I'm for a more proactive faction warfare. Allow me to explain:

If faction warfare comes into existence, it would likely come as a result from the weakening of Concord.

1) Dissolve CONCORD from its police duties.
2) Continue buff to Navies. However, the navy of each faction takes on the roll CONCORD did before factional warfare.
-Navy ships will still be at randomly different gates through their empire.
-If a person enters an area with low faction standing and avoids the NPC navies, he'll still be able to traverse the enemy territory. However, as the new local police will consider him outlaw, he'll also be responsible for avoiding PC players. As what police would warp in to save an outlaw?
-Security status dynamically changes depending on what territory you enter, as a relation to your standings.

This would be a simple and elegant solution to Factional Warfare. All that is required is to game design the exact cut off points for standings, write a back story, and perhaps introduce it through interactive player means rather than simply next patch everything becomes different.

In fact, this was what I was expecting when I first joined game and I was afraid to go into Minmatar space for that same reason.


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