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blankseplocked PETITION: Reduce fighter spam lag!
 
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1Of9
Gallente
The Circle
White Noise.
Posted - 2007.09.14 14:40:00 - [331]
 

Originally by: CSFFlame

• A carrier can launch up to three times more drones than a normal ship at one time and MSes up to 5 times
• Drones increase server instability at an exponential rate
• Drones will auto-aggro and keep killing stuff, even if everyone else is lagged, making them “immune” to lag
• Lag really sucks
• Solutions like upgrading servers to alleviate the lag are expensive and fleeting at best, since as the capacity for fighters increases, more people will come in and reach the max capacity again (see: Jita overpopulation)

Carriers and MSes create an inordinate amount of lag because they can launch more drones than any other ship. While twenty normal ships may collectively launch 100 drones, twenty carriers will launch 300. At this point, trying to do anything in system becomes futile, where the server is so flooded that it can take more than 5, 10, or even 15 minutes to respond to player commands.

Since the number of interactions with the server is a value of n^3, lag increases exponentially with each new drone launched.

• 5 drones require 125 times more server calculations than just one. (5^3 / 1)
• 15 drones require 27 times more server calculations than five. (15^3 / 5^3)
• 25 drones require 125 times more server calculations than five, and 15,625 times more calculations than a single drone.

Reducing fighter counts could create profound improvements in server performance, and considering the same was done for normal ships in RMR, it’s not an outrageous request.

What we, the undersigned, want is just for CCP to acknowledge fighter spam lag as a priority issue and make fixing and adjusting it a goal in an upcoming patch, whenever that may be. Combat cannot occur as the game was designed without distinct and effective action from CCP.

The quote below is just an example of what could work, though whatever happens is not as important as making sure something happens. This idea can be scrapped if a better idea works just as well.

Quote:

1. you can only have 1 fighter delegated to your ship at once instead of 5. That means any ship with a fighter assigned only get to use that 1 fighter and no other drones.

2. Reduce maximum deployable fighters from a carrier at any time to 5.

3. Make the Drone Interfacing skill apply to fighters so that at level V fighters get +100% damage and +100% HP.

4. give motherships an added +20% to drone damage and HP per level on top of what they already have. The Nyx gets +25% per level to keep it as it is.

5. Drone Control Units; Since the DPS of the whole thing is determined first by multiplication and then adding stuff, giving DCUs a percentage-based increase to anything drone related won't scale properly for a mothership and in the end would make something either gimped or absolutely insane. As a cheap cop-out, make it so DCUs add +20 damage to each of the 5 fighters, which gives a +100 total damage with one DCU (same damage increase as is now) and +500 total damage with 5 DCUs. Only place where that breaks down is that it would a sort of a stealth nerf to the Nyx and Thanatos, since before they would get more damage out of the additional fighters they could use. The technical limitations behind this may make it impossible to get this to work properly without reworking Drone Control Units in general.

6. reduce the drone capacity on carriers and MSes appropriately, since they seem to be designed to carry only a limited number of fighters.





Google translation from goon language to human language:

We are been owned by carriers and mom's drones and we dont whant to lose ccp.. plz nerf nerf nerf.

/translation

Jinmie
Posted - 2007.09.14 15:05:00 - [332]
 

How is it a nerf if all Carriers do equivalent dps after just through 5 Fighters, 5 Fighters that will die 2x slower due to having 100% more hp mind you...

If anything that's clearly a buff.

1Of9
Gallente
The Circle
White Noise.
Posted - 2007.09.14 18:47:00 - [333]
 

Edited by: 1Of9 on 14/09/2007 18:51:29
Originally by: Jinmie
How is it a nerf if all Carriers do equivalent dps after just through 5 Fighters, 5 Fighters that will die 2x slower due to having 100% more hp mind you...

If anything that's clearly a buff.


Because less drones will do same damage, but once you kill 1 of them, u kill ur target dps ALOT faster .. so, yeah, it's a "hidden" pro-goon feature .. a.k.a. nerf nerf nerf


Edit: just notice ALL the goons posting /signed in this topic.
It's too obvious no? they all entered the forumobile to get this with tons of pages ugh

Lars Erlkonig
Caldari
Discrete Solutions Ltd.
Mean Coalition
Posted - 2007.09.14 19:20:00 - [334]
 

Originally by: 1Of9

Google translation from goon language to human language:

We are been owned by carriers and mom's drones and we dont whant to lose ccp.. plz nerf nerf nerf.

/translation


More like, we'd like to fight in OMG huge battles but with all the drones flying around we can't jump into the systems without having the servers crash and burn for most of us while others jump in 1 at a time into a giant fighter drone swarm. We want to fight against fighters and carriers but not if they're going to make the lag so bad we don't even get a chance to fire a single volley. Heck just opening up the drone interface with a carrier normally lags me out for a good few minutes, despite having all the different types of drones in separate folders. This is becoming a serious issue affecting pilots game play, not some RSF vs GBC argument.

Dark Hunterj
Gallente
The Fallen Angels Unit
Legiunea ROmana
Posted - 2007.09.14 19:43:00 - [335]
 

/signs against it

Fighter spam lag exists, and it sucks, but a carrier is a carrier never the less. A carrier needs to have the ability to launch a lot of fighters at one point.

Fix the problem doing something else, better algorithms, better AI, wolf-gang pairing for drones (more drones do the same thing so they won't have different threads, as individual drones) BUT leave the carrier launch that huge amount of drones.

1Of9
Gallente
The Circle
White Noise.
Posted - 2007.09.14 19:59:00 - [336]
 

Originally by: Lars Erlkonig
Originally by: 1Of9

Google translation from goon language to human language:

We are been owned by carriers and mom's drones and we dont whant to lose ccp.. plz nerf nerf nerf.

/translation


More like, we'd like to fight in OMG huge battles but with all the drones flying around we can't jump into the systems without having the servers crash and burn for most of us while others jump in 1 at a time into a giant fighter drone swarm. We want to fight against fighters and carriers but not if they're going to make the lag so bad we don't even get a chance to fire a single volley. Heck just opening up the drone interface with a carrier normally lags me out for a good few minutes, despite having all the different types of drones in separate folders. This is becoming a serious issue affecting pilots game play, not some RSF vs GBC argument.


dude when u guys jump with 200+ gangs in a system, you blame drones??

i think u better get a better excuse, really, this is not working, coming from kids that admit playing with lag to kill enemies..

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.09.14 21:40:00 - [337]
 

Originally by: Jinmie
How is it a nerf if all Carriers do equivalent dps after just through 5 Fighters, 5 Fighters that will die 2x slower due to having 100% more hp mind you...

If anything that's clearly a buff.

Moreover, reducing the lag caused by drone clouds means that carrier and droneboat pilots might actually be able to control their drones and be able to all assign them to the primary or their particular desired target, rather than the player throw them at the only ship that appears on his overview, or having them sit idle or auto-aggress a randomly selected ship from the enemy fleet.

Originally by: 1Of9
Because less drones will do same damage, but once you kill 1 of them, u kill ur target dps ALOT faster .. so, yeah, it's a "hidden" pro-goon feature .. a.k.a. nerf nerf nerf

Which is why I suggested merging the 2/3/4/5 individual drones into a 'squadron' entity which would have 2/3/4/5x the HP of an individual drone. That way, by the time you've chewed through the HP of that squadron and killed it, you've done the same amount of damage as you would have needed to kill the 5 individual drones/fighters anyway.

I've no problem at all with changes which actually result in a slight net improvement in the performance of carriers and motherships - as I've pointed out previously, there's probably not all that great a difference between the amount of active carriers and MSs on the RSF side and those being used against us, so even if you think this is all some dark and evil goonie plot it would do little to benefit us anyway. What I, and I'm sure all of us, want is for those ships to make their presence felt on the field through the deliberate actions of the player piloting that ship, not for the carrier pilot to pop out the fighters and go afk for half an hour because he or she can't issue any commands anyway and just has to rely on the lag-free fighters to auto-aggress and do all the work.

Lars Erlkonig
Caldari
Discrete Solutions Ltd.
Mean Coalition
Posted - 2007.09.14 21:41:00 - [338]
 

When the other system has 200 pilots on the gate with 270 est fighter drones what do you expect us to do? Jump in 10 at a time so the node has time to re-balance? Give me a break. We've had gangs of equal size but due to lag don't jump them in because we cannot trust the nodes will hold with all the drone spam on a gate. I'd rather have some decent fights over giant lag-fests where nothing happens except for the few pilots who can shoot. I'm not saying that the OP has the best suggestion in mind, but we do need to do something about getting the resultant lag from epic style fleet fights to a manageable level.

1Of9
Gallente
The Circle
White Noise.
Posted - 2007.09.14 22:06:00 - [339]
 

I dont expect you 2do anything, except to die.

i dont care if u jump 1by1 or all at once, just dont blaim it on the drones, because they r not it.
you little coordinated forum-spam trick dont work.
besides, you guys not just do the same, but u do even worse. and when u r the welcoming side, u dont complain.

nerf nerf nerf you say?

/not signed

Jinmie
Posted - 2007.09.14 22:47:00 - [340]
 

Yes you would lose 2x the dps if one died, but they take 2x as much damage before they die !

Making them 2x easier to scoop / rep in time.


How dense are you really? >.<

Ur235
Mind Games.
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2007.09.15 00:45:00 - [341]
 

I suppose the only fix for this is to stop drones auto aggroing, so the player ahs to order what to fight, making it an even playing field.

Its a fare enuogh demand it does not give an advantge to either side.

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.09.15 01:23:00 - [342]
 

Removing auto-drone aggression would fix balance issues, but not lag issues. It's kind of preferable to do both, but I'm under no illusions that it's just drones - there's lots of other things. Jump in mechanics probably need to change so a massed jump in actually results in everyone loading grid.

Usarua
Posted - 2007.09.15 02:25:00 - [343]
 

Edited by: Usarua on 15/09/2007 02:32:30
I think allowing them to keep the capacity of fighters or even increase it, while slightly increasing fighter damage but lowering the number of fighters they are allowed to field at once by 3/5x or so would be the perfect solution. the fighters can replace the losses easily this way, but it doesnt lag the server and over time adds up to the same dps anyway, which means carriers dont suffer anything but slightly increased cost losses from fighters being in smaller numbers and therefore easier to focus fire kill. it also prevents all a carriers fighters being popped at once by DDD or smartbomb spam.


Originally by: Kif
Edited by: Kif on 07/09/2007 23:13:28
The only problem I have is the fact that fighters are essentially immune to lag (that they help create). Thats the problem that needs fixing.
Complain all you want about huge fleets with hundreds of people lagging, but at least everyone has to deal with that. When you have 7 MS and 30 carriers that dump hundreds of fighters on grid at once, then procede to just agro whatever and tear it apart while its helpless... thats what sucks.


upon seeing, this would actually fix the whole thing quickly for a while until its changed to be less lag inducing. because what fleet is going to lag itself and the enemy out with no gain? Very Happy

Swinton Wolsoncroft
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.09.15 03:29:00 - [344]
 

It is really awesome when hundreds of autonomous drones sit on the other side of a gate cause your client to fail to load for 5-10 minutes and when your client finally loads, its in a station in a newbie clone. Fix the lag now.

Zeoliter
Disco Biscuits
Posted - 2007.09.15 04:30:00 - [345]
 

Read the first page and it's just a Goon whine.

Goon perspective: We are losing, nerf Eve.

Go play WoW. And here's a another box of tissues.

Usarua
Posted - 2007.09.15 04:42:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: Zeoliter
Read the first page and it's just a Goon whine.

Goon perspective: We are losing, nerf Eve.

Go play WoW. And here's a another box of tissues.


moderators, lets remove all this forum's troll and flame/criticize/unconstructive posts.

Zaranisa
Posted - 2007.09.15 05:07:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: Usarua
Originally by: Zeoliter
Read the first page and it's just a Goon whine.

Goon perspective: We are losing, nerf Eve.

Go play WoW. And here's a another box of tissues.


moderators, lets remove all this forum's troll and flame/criticize/unconstructive posts.

yes doo that and also remove post #1

phillie blunt
Live And Let Die
Posted - 2007.09.15 05:20:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: James Duar
Removing auto-drone aggression would fix balance issues, but not lag issues. It's kind of preferable to do both, but I'm under no illusions that it's just drones - there's lots of other things. Jump in mechanics probably need to change so a massed jump in actually results in everyone loading grid.


since when the drones auto agress? ah yeah those are the t3 drones

Perpello
Astralite Technologies
Posted - 2007.09.15 05:25:00 - [349]
 

Quote:
twenty carriers will launch 300


Yup, all Alliance carrier pilots have Advanced Drone Interfacing V and fit five drone control units. We are that good.

Laughing

TechnoMag
Minmatar
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.15 05:49:00 - [350]
 

Originally by: WrathOfOprah
/Signed

I don't care what you do CCP. Just do something. This is more annoying than the old Titans. I want to at least See when I die.


yeah sure ...
why not u r making your own game ... its kinda silly : nerf that (because we r loosing) after 2months ok nerf THAT and un-nerf the other one and so on...
Why u think eve should be developed after your evolution ingame?
if the ccp will nerf again on command because of goons mass petition maybe other alliance will do the same in future and petition the unliked features of the enemy?

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.09.15 05:50:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: Perpello
Quote:
twenty carriers will launch 300


Yup, all Alliance carrier pilots have Advanced Drone Interfacing V and fit five drone control units. We are that good.

Laughing


4 from Carrier 4 + 4 from ADI 4 = 8 drones per carrier = 160 drones. 'splain to me how that is that much better?

Usarua
Posted - 2007.09.15 06:27:00 - [352]
 

Edited by: Usarua on 15/09/2007 06:54:07

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 08/09/2007 20:16:35
Originally by: CSFFlame

• 5 drones require 125 times more server calculations than just one. (5^3 / 1)
• 15 drones require 27 times more server calculations than five. (15^3 / 5^3)
• 25 drones require 125 times more server calculations than five, and 15,625 times more calculations than a single drone.

The OP is completely wrong on this one (where the hell did he get that n^3 nonsense from), and if that is the basis of his argument, the argument is basically null and void.

A drone/fighter (referenced collectively as 'drone' from now) requires a certain amount of server CPU. It needs that for flight-path calculation and shooting information.
• 2 drones require 2 times the CPU of 1 drones!
• 5 drones require 5 times the CPU of 1 drones!
.....etc.

This is so, because there are NO interaction between drones. They don't need to know about each other (unless they're shooting each other), i.e. drone A doesn't need to tell drone B that "I'm here, doing this".
In that aspect, they're little different from any gun mounted on a ship. The information about them is a static piece, unless a player action changes it.

So, if we try to count the different pieces of information needing to be calculated and sent to other ships on grid.

Take a gun BS for example (Raven is worse since it also has missiles in flight):
7 or 8 pieces of firing information for its guns
10 pieces of information for its drones
1 piece of flight-path information
? pieces of effect information
? pieces of targeting information
Total: 19 + ? + ?

Now, take a carrier:
~2 pieces of firing information for its remote reppers (of whichever type)
18 pieces of information for its fighters (assuming he can control 9)
1 piece of flight-path information
? pieces of effect information
? pieces of targeting information
Total: 21 + ? + ?

And a mommyship:
~3 pieces of firing information for its remote reppers (of whichever type)
40 pieces of information for its fighters (assuming he can control 20)
1 piece of flight-path information
? pieces of effect information
? pieces of targeting information
Total: 44 + ? + ?
.........................



you very neatly neglected the part where turrets on a ship dont have velocities and trajectory calculations for flight into orbit around a target. to fire, once per the firing rate, the gun retrieves all the pertinent information, and updates the fight with a hit or miss. a drone or fighter is another ship with its own gun. thats 20 more ships running collision detection and trajectory modification based on how the target is movin. are you insane?

Id also like to point out that despite the problem this causes, people keep getting that many carriers all in one spot and doing it. what do you have to say about this? good tactic to use lag to kill people with the excuse that you bought all those ships and should be able to use them.

[sarcasm]
I always consider a single players selfishness and stupidity a better cause than the stability and playability of all the other players in the game. [/sarcasm]

Tijuana
GK inc.
Panda Team
Posted - 2007.09.15 07:13:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: Perpello
Quote:
twenty carriers will launch 300


Yup, all Alliance carrier pilots have Advanced Drone Interfacing V and fit five drone control units. We are that good.

Laughing


4 from Carrier 4 + 4 from ADI 4 = 8 drones per carrier = 160 drones. 'splain to me how that is that much better?
Now teaching MA 109 "Math for Goons" is: Professor Tijuana.
9 from Carrier Level 4
+4 from all 4 Drone Control Units
= 13 Fighters (kinda like 8)

20 X 13 = 260

As Perpello suggested:
10 from Carrier Level 5
+5 from 5 DCUs

=15 fighters

15 X 20 = 300

Hope that helps!

Perpello
Astralite Technologies
Posted - 2007.09.15 08:46:00 - [354]
 

Originally by: Tijuana
Now teaching MA 109 "Math for Goons" is: Professor Tijuana.

Well, counting isn't a skill that Goons are renowned for.

Laughing

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.09.15 08:48:00 - [355]
 

Originally by: Perpello
Originally by: Tijuana
Now teaching MA 109 "Math for Goons" is: Professor Tijuana.

Well, counting isn't a skill that Goons are renowned for.

Laughing

Don't fly a carrier, just mildly amused that your point was still invalid even when I stuffed up the math grossly in its favor.

LUKEC
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.15 08:50:00 - [356]
 

You could remote dd them with titan, you know...

... but you were whining about that too.

Now eat whatever you cooked.

BOldMan
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.09.15 09:44:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: James Duar

No one anywhere has implied drones are the sole cause of lag?




All I see is 'pls nerf ships that can create lag to our ubber blob or can kill us in our uber lag'

Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.09.15 09:56:00 - [358]
 

Dear CCP

Plz nerf everything that the whining majortiy of GS can not field and gets owned by it or they will whine whine whine .

Br


PS: Epic lulz at goons and their pets circle jerkign each other LaughingLaughing

Dagam
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2007.09.15 10:00:00 - [359]
 

At this point it's mostly you guys bumping it giving it more attention. Thanks for dis.

Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.09.15 10:02:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: Dagam
At this point it's mostly you guys bumping it giving it more attention. Thanks for dis.



At the point when ppl laugh at the village idiot he doesnt get attention he is just a mockery , exactly like you and ur alliance . MAD PROPS LaughingLaughing


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